fbpx
00:00:00:06 - 00:00:...

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:03:02
How does one go from CEO to

00:00:03:02 - 00:00:05:03
activist from fighting in the suites

00:00:05:03 - 00:00:06:11
to fighting in the streets?

00:00:06:11 - 00:00:07:08
Learn from Jason Flom

00:00:07:08 - 00:00:08:22
as we learn about his mission

00:00:08:22 - 00:00:10:07
to fight for justice

00:00:24:04 - 00:00:25:09
Welcome to Disruption Now!

00:00:25:09 - 00:00:26:10
I'm your host and moderator,

00:00:26:10 - 00:00:27:19
Rob Richardson,

00:00:27:19 - 00:00:29:22
where we host on this show

00:00:29:22 - 00:00:31:19
guests and narratives that disrupt common

00:00:31:19 - 00:00:32:23
narratives and constructs.

00:00:32:23 - 00:00:33:18
And I can tell you this,

00:00:33:18 - 00:00:35:22
Jason Flom definitely does that.

00:00:35:22 - 00:00:37:18
He used to be CEO of Atlantic,

00:00:37:18 - 00:00:38:20
and now he's an activist

00:00:38:20 - 00:00:40:09
fighting to make sure we have a more

00:00:40:09 - 00:00:42:02
just criminal justice system.

00:00:42:02 - 00:00:44:00
He is the producer

00:00:44:00 - 00:00:46:05
and founder of Wrongful Conviction

00:00:46:05 - 00:00:47:23
Podcast, False Confession

00:00:47:23 - 00:00:49:14
Podcast, as well as

00:00:49:14 - 00:00:51:09
Righteous Conviction podcast.

00:00:51:09 - 00:00:53:00
He's just a podcast king

00:00:53:00 - 00:00:54:09
And he went from that.

00:00:54:09 - 00:00:56:04
He what he used to be doing

00:00:56:04 - 00:00:57:06
everything on the corporate level.

00:00:57:06 - 00:00:58:07
Now he used it.

00:00:58:07 - 00:01:00:08
He uses his voice to fight for people,

00:01:00:08 - 00:01:01:18
specifically fighting for

00:01:03:04 - 00:01:05:06
wrongful wrongful convictions

00:01:05:06 - 00:01:06:10
and things that are happening

00:01:06:10 - 00:01:08:08
all day, every day to many Americans.

00:01:08:08 - 00:01:09:18
But a lot of us don't see it.

00:01:09:18 - 00:01:10:15
And we're going to make sure

00:01:10:15 - 00:01:12:20
that you see it and learn about it today.

00:01:12:20 - 00:01:14:08
So we're going to listen to Jason

00:01:14:08 - 00:01:15:20
and hear what he has to say.

00:01:15:20 - 00:01:17:05
And it's just so interesting to me

00:01:17:05 - 00:01:19:18
that we see these repeated injustices

00:01:19:18 - 00:01:21:08
go over and over and over again

00:01:21:08 - 00:01:23:08
within our society, within America.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:10
But yet it's still underappreciated

00:01:25:10 - 00:01:28:09
how unjust, how unfair,

00:01:28:15 - 00:01:30:06
how cruel our system is.

00:01:30:06 - 00:01:30:16
But as you're

00:01:30:16 - 00:01:31:12
going to see on the other side,

00:01:31:12 - 00:01:32:12
we need to do more about it.

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:33:11
And I hope you

00:01:33:11 - 00:01:34:00
you come out

00:01:34:00 - 00:01:36:13
more informed and more engaged than ever.

00:01:36:13 - 00:01:36:24
How are you doing man?

00:01:38:03 - 00:01:38:23
I'm doing well.

00:01:38:23 - 00:01:39:14
8 hours of

00:01:39:14 - 00:01:41:19
sleep, six espressos, one nice long

00:01:41:19 - 00:01:42:16
walk with the dog.

00:01:42:16 - 00:01:43:14
And now I'm here with you.

00:01:43:14 - 00:01:45:15
So, you know, I'm living the dream.

00:01:45:15 - 00:01:46:18
Good to see you, brother, man.

00:01:46:18 - 00:01:48:16
And always great connecting

00:01:48:16 - 00:01:51:09
with another warrior and justice.

00:01:51:23 - 00:01:53:20
I think you're more in the cause than me.

00:01:53:20 - 00:01:54:20
I do all I can

00:01:54:20 - 00:01:55:18
but you've dedicated

00:01:55:18 - 00:01:56:20
all of your time to this.

00:01:56:20 - 00:01:57:20
I just want

00:01:57:23 - 00:01:59:14
to let you know that we appreciate it.

00:01:59:14 - 00:02:01:09
And I really want to dive into

00:02:01:09 - 00:02:02:09
how you got into this,

00:02:02:09 - 00:02:04:17
because you went from

00:02:04:23 - 00:02:05:15
the corporate suites

00:02:05:15 - 00:02:06:12
to fighting in the streets,

00:02:06:12 - 00:02:07:05
as I said earlier.

00:02:07:05 - 00:02:08:13
So, like, how

00:02:08:22 - 00:02:10:05
how does one make this transition?

00:02:10:05 - 00:02:12:07
Because you were CEO of Atlantic Records,

00:02:12:07 - 00:02:14:10
I believe that's. That's correct.

00:02:14:10 - 00:02:16:03
And now you have a podcast

00:02:16:03 - 00:02:17:09
that's all about making sure

00:02:17:09 - 00:02:21:10
you are exposing the recurring injustices

00:02:21:10 - 00:02:21:22
that happen

00:02:21:22 - 00:02:23:06
within our criminal justice

00:02:23:06 - 00:02:25:06
system, so-called justice system.

00:02:25:06 - 00:02:26:14
And that's all you do now.

00:02:26:14 - 00:02:27:18
So talk to me about that

00:02:27:18 - 00:02:30:05
transition from that life to this life,

00:02:30:05 - 00:02:32:03
because that's quite the transition.

00:02:32:03 - 00:02:32:11
Yeah.

00:02:32:11 - 00:02:34:06
Listen, I still have one foot squarely

00:02:34:06 - 00:02:35:18
in the music business.

00:02:35:18 - 00:02:37:08
I mean, people identify me more

00:02:37:08 - 00:02:39:22
now with the sort of good work that I do

00:02:39:22 - 00:02:41:01
than with the good work

00:02:41:01 - 00:02:42:12
that I've done on the music side.

00:02:42:12 - 00:02:43:23
I guess you could say

00:02:43:23 - 00:02:45:05
good with a capital G

00:02:45:05 - 00:02:47:22
as opposed to a lowercase G. Right.

00:02:47:22 - 00:02:49:09
But yeah, it's funny

00:02:49:09 - 00:02:50:13
because, you know, whenever I do

00:02:50:13 - 00:02:51:24
public speaking, which I do a lot

00:02:51:24 - 00:02:53:07
and I really enjoy it.

00:02:53:07 - 00:02:54:13
I speak at corporations,

00:02:54:13 - 00:02:55:23
law schools, Ivy League

00:02:55:23 - 00:02:57:17
schools and open for Tony Robbins.

00:02:57:17 - 00:02:59:04
I've spoken in a MAXIMUM-SECURITY prison

00:02:59:04 - 00:03:01:15
in Uganda. I mean, everything in between.

00:03:02:16 - 00:03:03:18
But I always start off by

00:03:03:18 - 00:03:04:14
saying this is the story

00:03:04:14 - 00:03:05:15
of my crazy journey

00:03:05:15 - 00:03:06:21
from wannabe Jimi

00:03:06:21 - 00:03:08:03
Hendrix to chairman and CEO

00:03:08:03 - 00:03:08:24
with three of the biggest record

00:03:08:24 - 00:03:09:18
companies in the world.

00:03:09:18 - 00:03:10:20
But more importantly,

00:03:10:20 - 00:03:11:22
from being a drug addicted

00:03:11:22 - 00:03:13:14
college dropout to a pioneer

00:03:13:14 - 00:03:14:23
in criminal justice reform,

00:03:14:23 - 00:03:16:02
because it is more important

00:03:16:02 - 00:03:18:13
at the end of the day, you know,

00:03:18:13 - 00:03:20:15
you're in the arts and

00:03:21:02 - 00:03:22:15
you're a creator, and you know,

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:24:20
you do incredible work, and that's great.

00:03:24:21 - 00:03:26:08
I'm on the other side, right?

00:03:26:08 - 00:03:27:18
I'm on the side of once

00:03:27:18 - 00:03:28:08
I realize that

00:03:28:08 - 00:03:29:07
I was never going to make it

00:03:29:07 - 00:03:31:04
as the world's best guitar player,

00:03:31:04 - 00:03:32:21
I was like, all right, screw it.

00:03:32:21 - 00:03:34:06
because listen.

00:03:34:06 - 00:03:35:13
Rob, my dad had told me

00:03:35:13 - 00:03:36:21
I never can do an interview

00:03:36:21 - 00:03:37:20
without mentioning my dad

00:03:37:20 - 00:03:39:24
because he was really my mentor.

00:03:39:24 - 00:03:41:24
And he told my brother and I

00:03:41:24 - 00:03:43:11
he said, listen,

00:03:43:11 - 00:03:44:19
do whatever you want to do.

00:03:44:19 - 00:03:45:23
Try to be the best at it,

00:03:45:23 - 00:03:47:22
but just make the world a better place

00:03:47:22 - 00:03:49:14
because there's no other meaning

00:03:49:14 - 00:03:50:19
to success. Right?

00:03:50:19 - 00:03:51:20
That's the only definition

00:03:51:20 - 00:03:52:23
that that matters.

00:03:52:23 - 00:03:54:03
So I was like,

00:03:54:03 - 00:03:55:10
Okay, Pops,

00:03:55:10 - 00:03:56:16
let's see what we can do about that,

00:03:56:16 - 00:03:57:00
you know what I mean?

00:03:57:00 - 00:03:58:05
And then like I said, when I realized

00:03:58:05 - 00:03:58:17
I wasn't going

00:03:58:17 - 00:04:00:11
to be the best guitar player, I decided

00:04:00:11 - 00:04:01:06
maybe I could make it

00:04:01:06 - 00:04:02:10
in the music industry and help

00:04:02:10 - 00:04:04:15
other people become superstars.

00:04:04:15 - 00:04:05:18
And that's how it worked out,

00:04:05:18 - 00:04:07:19
which gives me the ability to then

00:04:07:19 - 00:04:09:22
go and make that transition

00:04:09:22 - 00:04:11:00
that you talked about.

00:04:11:00 - 00:04:14:04
And I fell in love with this cause or

00:04:14:05 - 00:04:16:00
I fell in line with this cause,

00:04:16:00 - 00:04:17:10
or I became obsessed with it.

00:04:17:10 - 00:04:18:09
But before you get there,

00:04:18:09 - 00:04:19:01
I want you to get that.

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:20:08
I just want to take one small point

00:04:20:08 - 00:04:21:15
about what you said,

00:04:21:15 - 00:04:22:13
that when you focused

00:04:22:13 - 00:04:24:21
on your early in your career,

00:04:24:21 - 00:04:27:09
you were focused on music

00:04:27:09 - 00:04:28:02
and thought you were going to be

00:04:28:02 - 00:04:29:02
this Jimi Hendrix player.

00:04:29:02 - 00:04:30:02
And I just have a lot of

00:04:30:02 - 00:04:31:03
similar similarities

00:04:31:03 - 00:04:32:04
to your path like

00:04:32:04 - 00:04:33:18
like I wanted to be next

00:04:33:18 - 00:04:34:23
Michael Jordan at that time, right?

00:04:34:23 - 00:04:36:12
Like, just work hard

00:04:36:12 - 00:04:38:01
and just thought

00:04:38:01 - 00:04:38:13
You know, I was like,

00:04:38:13 - 00:04:39:05
I'm going to do this

00:04:39:05 - 00:04:39:21
and I'm going to use

00:04:39:21 - 00:04:41:11
that as my platform to change the world.

00:04:43:01 - 00:04:44:19
A couple of couple problems with that,

00:04:44:19 - 00:04:45:21
breaking my knee.

00:04:45:21 - 00:04:46:08
I can't

00:04:46:08 - 00:04:48:13
I have nowhere near the athletic ability

00:04:48:13 - 00:04:49:24
of Michael Jordan or anybody else.

00:04:49:24 - 00:04:52:21
So I actually pivoted too it's amazing how

00:04:54:02 - 00:04:54:24
how life can take us

00:04:54:24 - 00:04:56:06
towards the right path

00:04:56:06 - 00:04:57:20
if we're not focused on it

00:04:57:20 - 00:04:59:15
being exactly what we think it has to be.

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:00:02
So I just thought

00:05:00:02 - 00:05:01:16
that was an interesting point.

00:05:01:16 - 00:05:02:22
Life is never linear, but.

00:05:02:22 - 00:05:04:05
Okay, so let's talk about this transition

00:05:04:05 - 00:05:05:17
you made to your.

00:05:05:17 - 00:05:06:17
Now, you you've

00:05:06:17 - 00:05:07:20
you realize you weren't going to be

00:05:07:20 - 00:05:09:00
Jimi Hendrix,

00:05:09:00 - 00:05:09:20
but you did have success

00:05:09:20 - 00:05:10:18
with the music business

00:05:10:18 - 00:05:11:12
several times over

00:05:11:12 - 00:05:13:14
being CEO at three different companies.

00:05:14:13 - 00:05:16:18
And now you've made this transition.

00:05:16:19 - 00:05:17:24
Talk more about this transition

00:05:17:24 - 00:05:18:24
that you have now.

00:05:18:24 - 00:05:19:18
Yeah, I like that.

00:05:19:18 - 00:05:20:17
Life is never linear.

00:05:20:17 - 00:05:22:10
It's just like my dad used to say, trees

00:05:22:10 - 00:05:23:23
don't go straight to the sky. Right?

00:05:23:23 - 00:05:24:22
They kind of,

00:05:24:22 - 00:05:25:21
you know, except for redwoods.

00:05:25:21 - 00:05:26:08
But anyway.

00:05:26:08 - 00:05:27:13
Yeah, so yeah,

00:05:27:13 - 00:05:28:16
you got to kind of keep your mind

00:05:28:16 - 00:05:30:15
open to those possibilities. I feel like.

00:05:30:15 - 00:05:31:11
And because

00:05:31:11 - 00:05:33:08
because life does take crazy twists

00:05:33:08 - 00:05:35:12
and turns for all of us. But anyway,

00:05:36:23 - 00:05:37:20
it all started

00:05:37:20 - 00:05:38:24
in 1993

00:05:38:24 - 00:05:39:06
when I

00:05:39:06 - 00:05:41:10
read an article in the newspaper

00:05:41:10 - 00:05:41:24
about a kid

00:05:41:24 - 00:05:43:05
that was serving 15 years

00:05:43:05 - 00:05:44:20
to life for a first offense

00:05:44:20 - 00:05:46:06
for a nonviolent first offense.

00:05:46:06 - 00:05:47:19
Cocaine possession charge

00:05:47:19 - 00:05:48:24
in a Maximum-security prison

00:05:48:24 - 00:05:50:04
in New York State

00:05:50:04 - 00:05:52:05
and I know people are saying, Yeah,

00:05:52:19 - 00:05:54:00
that doesn't make any sense

00:05:54:00 - 00:05:55:04
what you're talking about,

00:05:55:04 - 00:05:58:07
but the fact is it was a nonviolent

00:05:58:07 - 00:06:01:14
first offense cocaine possession charge

00:06:01:20 - 00:06:02:22
for which he was serving

00:06:02:22 - 00:06:04:21
15 years to life under the Rockefeller

00:06:04:21 - 00:06:06:18
drug laws in New York State. Yep.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:08:00
And it was in the paper

00:06:08:00 - 00:06:09:02
because his mother had been trying

00:06:09:02 - 00:06:10:23
to get clemency for him from Governor

00:06:10:23 - 00:06:13:15
Mario Cuomo and had gotten to have

00:06:14:01 - 00:06:16:05
gotten letters from some prominent people

00:06:18:16 - 00:06:20:13
and had been turned down.

00:06:20:13 - 00:06:21:04
So that's why

00:06:21:04 - 00:06:22:06
it made it into the newspaper.

00:06:22:06 - 00:06:23:02
Otherwise he would have been

00:06:23:02 - 00:06:24:18
just another anonymous dude

00:06:24:18 - 00:06:25:19
lost in the system.

00:06:25:19 - 00:06:28:02
And so I read this and I was like,

00:06:28:02 - 00:06:29:06
what the

00:06:29:06 - 00:06:30:19
I don't know if I can curse on here, but,

00:06:30:19 - 00:06:31:04
you know, you.

00:06:31:04 - 00:06:32:10
You can cuss as much as you want. Go ahead.

00:06:32:10 - 00:06:33:18
Okay. So what the fuck?

00:06:33:18 - 00:06:34:04
I was like,

00:06:34:04 - 00:06:35:05
I didn't know anything

00:06:35:05 - 00:06:36:15
about these mandatory sentencing laws.

00:06:36:15 - 00:06:37:06
I did know that.

00:06:37:06 - 00:06:39:01
I had been a drug addict as a kid.

00:06:39:01 - 00:06:39:23
You know,

00:06:39:23 - 00:06:41:23
I had gone to rehab when I was 26,

00:06:42:06 - 00:06:43:20
and I was very well aware

00:06:43:20 - 00:06:45:01
that I had never had,

00:06:46:20 - 00:06:47:18
you know, I had had

00:06:47:18 - 00:06:48:21
some scary interactions,

00:06:48:21 - 00:06:51:00
but never anything serious with the

00:06:52:18 - 00:06:53:24
with the justice system.

00:06:53:24 - 00:06:55:08
And that was because of the color

00:06:55:08 - 00:06:55:21
of my skin

00:06:55:21 - 00:06:56:10
and the zip code

00:06:56:10 - 00:06:57:24
I lived in and I knew it.

00:06:57:24 - 00:07:00:15
So I just thought,

00:07:00:15 - 00:07:02:09
you know, I'm not a religious guy.

00:07:02:09 - 00:07:02:19
But there

00:07:02:19 - 00:07:04:11
but for the grace of

00:07:04:11 - 00:07:06:12
some higher power goes go I.

00:07:06:13 - 00:07:07:08
Right, right.

00:07:07:08 - 00:07:09:12
And so I thought I got to do something.

00:07:09:12 - 00:07:10:17
I had no idea what to do,

00:07:10:17 - 00:07:12:20
but I figured I got to do something

00:07:12:20 - 00:07:14:19
so I don't have any legal training.

00:07:14:19 - 00:07:16:10
I'm not even a college graduate.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:17:20
I was just a mid-level music

00:07:17:20 - 00:07:19:02
executive at the time.

00:07:19:02 - 00:07:21:15
And so just before you were

00:07:21:21 - 00:07:22:24
you were still in the music business

00:07:22:24 - 00:07:25:10
at this time and then you hit the spark.

00:07:25:10 - 00:07:25:19
Yeah.

00:07:25:19 - 00:07:27:06
And this is where the worlds collide.

00:07:27:06 - 00:07:27:12
Right?

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:29:02
So I knew one

00:07:29:02 - 00:07:30:21
criminal defense attorney at the time.

00:07:30:21 - 00:07:31:22
Now I know hundreds of them

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:33:14
but I knew one because

00:07:34:17 - 00:07:36:05
he represented two of the artists.

00:07:36:05 - 00:07:37:00
I had discovered

00:07:37:00 - 00:07:38:18
Stone Temple pilots and Skid Row,

00:07:38:18 - 00:07:39:21
and they were getting arrested

00:07:39:21 - 00:07:41:15
like practically weekly you know.

00:07:41:15 - 00:07:43:03
So I had him on speed dial

00:07:43:03 - 00:07:44:08
his name was Bob Galena.

00:07:44:08 - 00:07:45:12
Rest in peace.

00:07:45:12 - 00:07:47:13
So I called Bob and I asked Bob

00:07:47:13 - 00:07:50:13
if he could help with this case.

00:07:50:21 - 00:07:51:04
By now,

00:07:51:04 - 00:07:53:11
I had spoken to the mother of

00:07:53:11 - 00:07:55:02
the incarcerated guy.

00:07:55:02 - 00:07:57:13
Shirley is her name, and

00:07:57:15 - 00:08:00:00
she had basically given up hope

00:08:00:00 - 00:08:01:04
after getting turned down.

00:08:01:04 - 00:08:02:01
He had been in for over

00:08:02:01 - 00:08:03:01
eight years already.

00:08:03:01 - 00:08:04:02
He happened to be the same age

00:08:04:02 - 00:08:05:05
as I was at the time.

00:08:05:05 - 00:08:07:11
So I really saw myself in him, you know,

00:08:09:03 - 00:08:11:07
and because I had been in the wrong place

00:08:11:07 - 00:08:13:00
at the wrong time so many times,

00:08:13:00 - 00:08:14:10
and it could have happened to me.

00:08:14:10 - 00:08:15:08
So I'm

00:08:15:08 - 00:08:16:09
sure a lot of people are nodding

00:08:16:09 - 00:08:17:07
their heads at home right now

00:08:17:07 - 00:08:19:08
going it could have been me, too.

00:08:19:08 - 00:08:21:01
So because, you know,

00:08:21:01 - 00:08:22:08
you don't have to be

00:08:22:08 - 00:08:23:13
deep in the drug trade.

00:08:23:13 - 00:08:24:18
You can just be,

00:08:24:18 - 00:08:24:22
you know,

00:08:24:22 - 00:08:27:04
like I used to get my Coke

00:08:27:04 - 00:08:29:07
when I was addicted to that stuff.

00:08:29:07 - 00:08:30:00
You know,

00:08:30:00 - 00:08:31:10
I used to get in the car

00:08:31:10 - 00:08:32:15
with the guy who was selling it.

00:08:32:15 - 00:08:34:12
He used to drive around and all this.

00:08:34:12 - 00:08:36:15
And had we been pulled over

00:08:36:15 - 00:08:38:11
and all that stuff was in the car,

00:08:38:11 - 00:08:40:07
you know, and you both go it's not mine.

00:08:40:07 - 00:08:41:09
It belongs to both of you.

00:08:41:09 - 00:08:42:03
That's the end of it.

00:08:42:03 - 00:08:42:10
You know,

00:08:42:10 - 00:08:44:07
it doesn't matter if it's his car

00:08:44:07 - 00:08:46:04
or you're a passenger or you just got in

00:08:46:04 - 00:08:46:14
That's stuff.

00:08:46:14 - 00:08:47:17
Something people do not understand.

00:08:47:17 - 00:08:49:06
I don't think I have full appreciation

00:08:49:06 - 00:08:50:16
for how

00:08:50:16 - 00:08:51:18
just crazy

00:08:51:18 - 00:08:53:07
our our drug laws are to

00:08:53:07 - 00:08:54:06
to your point, right.

00:08:54:06 - 00:08:54:18
That I think

00:08:54:18 - 00:08:56:04
is really just important to stop at

00:08:56:04 - 00:08:56:17
Right?

00:08:56:21 - 00:08:59:06
If you're in the car, you cannot

00:08:59:06 - 00:09:00:14
you cannot you

00:09:00:14 - 00:09:02:00
you don't have to be doing the drugs

00:09:02:00 - 00:09:02:15
or somebody else

00:09:02:15 - 00:09:04:14
that has the drugs in your car.

00:09:04:14 - 00:09:05:11
You're both liable.

00:09:05:11 - 00:09:07:02
Like it just they just assume that you

00:09:07:02 - 00:09:08:22
you both are guilty.

00:09:08:22 - 00:09:09:18
And you both go to jail

00:09:09:18 - 00:09:12:02
like it doesn't even matter what you did.

00:09:12:12 - 00:09:13:15
It especially true if you're black.

00:09:13:15 - 00:09:14:11
Well, go ahead.

00:09:14:11 - 00:09:15:00
Well, yeah,

00:09:15:08 - 00:09:16:21
it could be five of you

00:09:16:21 - 00:09:19:08
and all the drugs belong to all of you.

00:09:19:08 - 00:09:20:21
It's like, unless somebody goes, oh, no,

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:21:10
those are mine,

00:09:21:10 - 00:09:23:11
which nobody ever does, right? So.

00:09:23:11 - 00:09:24:12
So anyway,

00:09:25:24 - 00:09:26:16
so Bob

00:09:26:16 - 00:09:28:07
agreed to take the case pro bono,

00:09:28:07 - 00:09:29:21
even though he said it was hopeless.

00:09:29:21 - 00:09:32:10
And somehow or other, he calls me up.

00:09:32:10 - 00:09:33:11
About a month later,

00:09:33:11 - 00:09:34:22
he found some loophole.

00:09:34:22 - 00:09:35:22
He said it won't work,

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:37:17
but I'm going to try

00:09:38:15 - 00:09:39:21
and then another five,

00:09:39:21 - 00:09:41:07
six months after that,

00:09:41:07 - 00:09:43:02
we end up in a courtroom in Malone,

00:09:43:02 - 00:09:43:15
New York.

00:09:43:15 - 00:09:44:17
I mean, this is so long ago

00:09:44:17 - 00:09:46:07
that I still had a mullet.

00:09:46:07 - 00:09:48:00
I mean, I'm not even kidding about this.

00:09:48:00 - 00:09:50:00
And I wish I was.

00:09:50:00 - 00:09:52:01
And I got the pictures to prove it.

00:09:52:09 - 00:09:53:20
And so they bring this kid

00:09:53:20 - 00:09:55:18
into the courtroom in shackles, right?

00:09:55:18 - 00:09:57:16
Like he's Charles Manson or something.

00:09:57:16 - 00:09:59:09
Right. I mean, he's got his legs chained.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:00:10
You know the drill.

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:01:06
I do.

00:10:01:06 - 00:10:01:23
And I'm like, wait,

00:10:01:23 - 00:10:03:17
isn't this a nonviolent first offender?

00:10:03:17 - 00:10:04:06
Doesn't this seem

00:10:04:06 - 00:10:05:21
like a little bit of overkill?

00:10:05:21 - 00:10:07:18
You know, but anyway,

00:10:07:18 - 00:10:09:16
the arguments go back and forth.

00:10:09:16 - 00:10:11:16
I have no idea what's going on

00:10:11:16 - 00:10:14:13
because I'm new at this new as could be.

00:10:15:08 - 00:10:16:14
And I'm sitting there

00:10:16:14 - 00:10:18:10
holding his mother's hand. Shirley,

00:10:19:12 - 00:10:21:03
her husband Stan

00:10:21:03 - 00:10:23:05
there on the other side,

00:10:23:05 - 00:10:24:18
probably squeezing her hand so tight

00:10:24:18 - 00:10:25:13
I can't imagine.

00:10:25:13 - 00:10:28:08
And the judge bangs the gavel down

00:10:28:08 - 00:10:29:24
and sends the kid home.

00:10:29:24 - 00:10:31:16
And I was like, what?

00:10:31:16 - 00:10:32:01
Like,

00:10:32:06 - 00:10:32:19
like when he

00:10:32:19 - 00:10:34:11
when the judge made his ruling, Bob comes

00:10:34:11 - 00:10:36:00
kind of scurrying over. Right.

00:10:36:00 - 00:10:38:02
And I'm like, well, what just happened?

00:10:38:02 - 00:10:40:11
And he goes, we won I was like, what?

00:10:40:18 - 00:10:41:08
He was like,

00:10:41:08 - 00:10:43:06
we won! I was like get the fuck out of here.

00:10:43:06 - 00:10:44:06
That's the craziest thing

00:10:44:06 - 00:10:44:22
I've ever heard.

00:10:44:22 - 00:10:46:11
So I was like, oh, my God,

00:10:46:11 - 00:10:47:19
I have a super power you know?

00:10:47:19 - 00:10:49:05
Like, I, I didn't,

00:10:49:05 - 00:10:49:16
I couldn't,

00:10:49:16 - 00:10:51:08
I didn't have a super power to play guitar.

00:10:51:08 - 00:10:52:08
We know that, right?

00:10:52:08 - 00:10:53:22
Definitely can't dunk a basketball

00:10:53:22 - 00:10:55:24
with my three inch Jewish vertical leap.

00:10:55:24 - 00:10:57:18
So I was like, okay,

00:10:57:18 - 00:10:59:13
maybe I'm exaggerating that, too. But

00:11:00:12 - 00:11:02:07
so I was like, I want to do more of that.

00:11:02:07 - 00:11:03:03
That was the feeling

00:11:03:03 - 00:11:04:13
that I wanted to have again

00:11:04:13 - 00:11:06:00
and again and again.

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:06:09
Yeah.

00:11:06:09 - 00:11:08:20
I mean, when we talk about these laws,

00:11:08:20 - 00:11:11:10
it's crazy how fast we got here

00:11:11:10 - 00:11:13:14
and just how absurd the laws are.

00:11:13:14 - 00:11:15:06
And so you mentioned

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:17:16
you implied about cocaine powder cocaine

00:11:17:16 - 00:11:19:04
versus crack cocaine,

00:11:19:04 - 00:11:20:15
and the fact that you'd have to get,

00:11:20:15 - 00:11:20:21
you know,

00:11:20:21 - 00:11:22:03
when these laws were first created,

00:11:22:03 - 00:11:23:11
what did you have to have?

00:11:23:11 - 00:11:24:05
100 times

00:11:24:05 - 00:11:25:11
the amount of powder cocaine

00:11:25:11 - 00:11:26:01
than it was crack

00:11:26:01 - 00:11:27:03
cocaine had very little bit

00:11:27:03 - 00:11:27:22
of crack cocaine.

00:11:27:22 - 00:11:28:11
And we know crack

00:11:28:11 - 00:11:30:03
cocaine was for

00:11:30:04 - 00:11:31:23
poor people and black people.

00:11:31:23 - 00:11:32:08
And powder

00:11:32:08 - 00:11:33:17
cocaine were more

00:11:33:17 - 00:11:34:11
usually white people

00:11:34:11 - 00:11:36:07
in other establishment like I would be

00:11:36:07 - 00:11:38:01
I remember this in law school

00:11:38:01 - 00:11:38:22
and, you know,

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:39:21
I didn't use drugs

00:11:39:21 - 00:11:41:01
I'm not judging anybody but I didn't.

00:11:41:01 - 00:11:41:14
But I remember

00:11:41:14 - 00:11:44:05
literally going into parties

00:11:44:05 - 00:11:44:22
and people would

00:11:44:22 - 00:11:47:21
literally be just be inhaling cocaine.

00:11:48:03 - 00:11:48:15
And it was

00:11:48:15 - 00:11:49:05
it was something

00:11:49:05 - 00:11:50:16
that people knew was happening,

00:11:50:16 - 00:11:52:09
the clubs knew were happening.

00:11:52:09 - 00:11:54:08
Officers would be there and it'd be no big deal.

00:11:54:08 - 00:11:56:07
Right. And they would just let it go.

00:11:56:07 - 00:11:58:11
But, you know, everywhere you go

00:11:59:03 - 00:12:00:15
in certain neighborhoods, your

00:12:00:15 - 00:12:02:15
your neighborhood is occupied

00:12:02:15 - 00:12:04:18
and you are assumed to be guilty.

00:12:05:13 - 00:12:06:07
No, matter what.

00:12:06:07 - 00:12:08:22
And you get searched every single second.

00:12:08:22 - 00:12:09:20
You have very little rights.

00:12:09:20 - 00:12:11:22
And I think people are really surprised

00:12:11:22 - 00:12:12:21
that this happens.

00:12:12:21 - 00:12:14:08
And and what I

00:12:14:08 - 00:12:14:16
what I

00:12:14:16 - 00:12:15:13
what I do know

00:12:15:13 - 00:12:15:21
is that

00:12:15:21 - 00:12:19:05
I think during the George Floyd murder,

00:12:19:05 - 00:12:20:21
when that happened in the protests

00:12:20:21 - 00:12:22:24
and people saw the amount of interactions

00:12:23:11 - 00:12:25:03
and the amount of power

00:12:25:03 - 00:12:26:17
that our criminal justice system

00:12:26:17 - 00:12:28:05
has is to suppress people's rights.

00:12:28:05 - 00:12:29:17
It surprised some people like that.

00:12:29:17 - 00:12:32:01
And so I hope people were awakened by

00:12:32:01 - 00:12:32:19
that fact. But

00:12:33:18 - 00:12:35:00
I would like to ask you

00:12:35:00 - 00:12:37:01
what fact surprised you,

00:12:37:01 - 00:12:39:00
what shocking fact

00:12:39:00 - 00:12:39:24
or reality

00:12:39:24 - 00:12:40:13
surprised you

00:12:40:13 - 00:12:40:23
the most

00:12:40:23 - 00:12:42:12
about our criminal justice system

00:12:42:12 - 00:12:43:17
that just really hit it for you?

00:12:43:17 - 00:12:44:06
Like, wow,

00:12:44:06 - 00:12:44:20
I can't believe

00:12:44:20 - 00:12:46:06
this is actually happening in America.

00:12:46:06 - 00:12:46:24
Like what?

00:12:46:24 - 00:12:47:22
What stood out for you?

00:12:47:22 - 00:12:49:14
What stands out for you?

00:12:49:15 - 00:12:51:17
I'll throw a couple statistics your way

00:12:52:06 - 00:12:53:17
that you may be familiar with,

00:12:53:17 - 00:12:55:21
but I bet a lot of people that listening

00:12:56:00 - 00:12:57:04
probably not.

00:12:57:04 - 00:12:58:07
No matter how woke you are,

00:12:58:07 - 00:13:00:07
these statistics will probably shock you.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:03:16
One that probably is as mind blowing

00:13:03:16 - 00:13:04:10
as any of them.

00:13:04:10 - 00:13:06:18
Is that the United States incarcerates

00:13:06:18 - 00:13:08:10
black people at six times

00:13:08:10 - 00:13:09:00
the rate

00:13:09:00 - 00:13:10:22
per capita of South Africa

00:13:10:22 - 00:13:12:16
during apartheid.

00:13:12:16 - 00:13:14:24
So let's just chew on that for a second.

00:13:15:01 - 00:13:16:13
Chew on that for one minute.

00:13:16:13 - 00:13:17:16
Say that one more time,

00:13:17:16 - 00:13:19:03
because I think it was really important.

00:13:20:05 - 00:13:20:11
Yeah.

00:13:20:11 - 00:13:22:19
So the United States incarcerates

00:13:23:08 - 00:13:26:00
black people at six times

00:13:26:00 - 00:13:27:19
the rate of South Africans

00:13:27:19 - 00:13:29:03
during apartheid,

00:13:29:03 - 00:13:30:15
of course, that's per capita.

00:13:30:15 - 00:13:32:06
Now, you know,

00:13:32:06 - 00:13:34:07
as crazy as that sounds, when you put

00:13:34:19 - 00:13:35:00
you know,

00:13:35:00 - 00:13:37:09
when you drill down inside the numbers

00:13:37:09 - 00:13:39:19
and you look at the fact that we have

00:13:39:19 - 00:13:41:09
4.4% of the world's

00:13:41:09 - 00:13:43:21
population, but 25% of the world's

00:13:44:00 - 00:13:45:14
prison population. Right.

00:13:45:14 - 00:13:47:08
And I'm going to say these slow

00:13:47:08 - 00:13:48:12
because it's a lot.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:50:15
But we also have

00:13:50:15 - 00:13:52:09
what's inside of those numbers

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:54:13
is we have 33% of the world's

00:13:54:13 - 00:13:56:22
female prison population.

00:13:56:22 - 00:13:57:18
So imagine that

00:13:57:18 - 00:14:00:13
if you're a woman in prison in the world,

00:14:00:13 - 00:14:01:23
there's a one in three chance

00:14:01:23 - 00:14:04:02
you're locked up in a cage in America.

00:14:04:02 - 00:14:05:02
And a lot of women,

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:06:13
a big percentage of women

00:14:06:13 - 00:14:07:20
in America, in prison

00:14:07:20 - 00:14:08:22
are in prison for crimes

00:14:08:22 - 00:14:10:14
that never even happened.

00:14:10:14 - 00:14:13:23
And that's a scary enough statistic.

00:14:13:23 - 00:14:14:20
But, you know,

00:14:14:20 - 00:14:18:11
then you look at like any way you look at

00:14:18:11 - 00:14:19:20
it, right? Like we have

00:14:20:24 - 00:14:23:03
more people in prison for drugs

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:25:04
than everyone in prison

00:14:25:04 - 00:14:27:05
in Western Europe for everything.

00:14:27:05 - 00:14:28:09
And they have a lot

00:14:28:09 - 00:14:29:15
more people than we do.

00:14:29:15 - 00:14:32:01
We have more people in prison

00:14:32:16 - 00:14:35:03
than Russia and China combined.

00:14:36:06 - 00:14:38:20
We have more people in jail

00:14:39:07 - 00:14:39:22
who haven't

00:14:39:22 - 00:14:41:10
been convicted of anything

00:14:41:10 - 00:14:44:03
but are too poor to post bail.

00:14:44:03 - 00:14:46:15
Then everyone locked up in a cage

00:14:46:15 - 00:14:48:15
in India.

00:14:49:01 - 00:14:51:02
India has got about four times

00:14:51:02 - 00:14:52:09
as many people as we do.

00:14:52:09 - 00:14:53:16
It's between three and four times

00:14:53:16 - 00:14:54:21
as many people as we do.

00:14:54:21 - 00:14:56:10
And we've got more people

00:14:56:10 - 00:14:57:24
I'm going to say it again

00:14:57:24 - 00:14:58:15
more people

00:14:58:15 - 00:14:59:04
that haven't

00:14:59:04 - 00:15:00:09
been convicted of a crime

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:01:02
that are right now

00:15:01:02 - 00:15:02:08
while we're sitting here

00:15:02:08 - 00:15:03:15
having this conversation,

00:15:03:15 - 00:15:07:08
they are stuck in a disgusting, violent,

00:15:07:20 - 00:15:09:07
dirty,

00:15:09:18 - 00:15:12:09
nightmarish hellhole, separated

00:15:12:09 - 00:15:13:06
from their children,

00:15:13:06 - 00:15:14:01
from their families,

00:15:14:01 - 00:15:15:01
from their church,

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:17:06
from their school, from their job,

00:15:17:06 - 00:15:18:23
from sunlight, from exercise,

00:15:18:23 - 00:15:20:10
from their dog or cat.

00:15:20:10 - 00:15:23:18
If they have one from every every basic

00:15:23:18 - 00:15:26:22
human need is unmet in these jails,

00:15:26:22 - 00:15:29:03
which in most cases are more violent

00:15:29:10 - 00:15:31:15
and more oppressive, more more,

00:15:31:18 - 00:15:32:01
you know,

00:15:32:01 - 00:15:33:05
more punitive

00:15:33:05 - 00:15:35:15
than maximum security prisons,

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:37:08
because there's no recreation,

00:15:37:08 - 00:15:38:14
there's no law library,

00:15:38:14 - 00:15:39:22
there's no school, there's

00:15:39:22 - 00:15:40:18
no anything

00:15:40:18 - 00:15:43:08
except for anger and frustration

00:15:43:08 - 00:15:45:02
and a powder keg of people

00:15:45:02 - 00:15:45:24
mixed up together.

00:15:45:24 - 00:15:47:01
People who are violent,

00:15:47:01 - 00:15:47:22
people who are nonviolent,

00:15:47:22 - 00:15:48:15
people are innocent,

00:15:48:15 - 00:15:49:12
people who are guilty,

00:15:49:12 - 00:15:50:14
people who are gang members.

00:15:50:14 - 00:15:51:10
People who are not.

00:15:51:10 - 00:15:51:24
And I

00:15:51:24 - 00:15:52:14
and I use

00:15:52:14 - 00:15:54:22
gang members very cautiously

00:15:54:22 - 00:15:56:16
because we tend to categorize people

00:15:56:16 - 00:15:57:13
as gang members

00:15:57:13 - 00:16:00:03
that aren't so many times in America.

00:16:00:10 - 00:16:01:22
And we can't have a

00:16:01:22 - 00:16:02:13
I can't

00:16:02:13 - 00:16:04:23
I can't let myself throw that around

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:05:15
loosely.

00:16:05:15 - 00:16:07:06
So, yeah, but,

00:16:07:06 - 00:16:07:11
you know,

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:08:10
I want to get back to something

00:16:08:10 - 00:16:09:06
else, Rob

00:16:09:06 - 00:16:10:08
because I don't want to

00:16:10:08 - 00:16:10:18
you know,

00:16:10:18 - 00:16:12:12
I don't want to bog everybody down

00:16:12:12 - 00:16:13:14
with statistics. But,

00:16:15:00 - 00:16:16:07
you know, that feeling that I

00:16:16:07 - 00:16:20:01
had all those years ago in 1993

00:16:20:19 - 00:16:24:06
when Steven Lennon was sent home,

00:16:24:06 - 00:16:26:02
you know, it's

00:16:27:07 - 00:16:28:08
it's a feeling that I wish

00:16:28:08 - 00:16:29:05
I never had to have

00:16:29:05 - 00:16:30:00
because I wish there weren't

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:30:22
all these people in prison

00:16:30:22 - 00:16:32:19
and we didn't have to go get them out.

00:16:32:19 - 00:16:34:09
And I hate that I can

00:16:34:09 - 00:16:36:21
only help one or two or ten or 50

00:16:36:22 - 00:16:39:03
at a time or whatever it is

00:16:39:03 - 00:16:40:22
because the problem is so vast.

00:16:40:22 - 00:16:41:16
Yeah.

00:16:41:20 - 00:16:44:08
I literally wish I could take the entire

00:16:44:08 - 00:16:45:00
prison system

00:16:45:00 - 00:16:46:18
in this country and turn it upside

00:16:46:18 - 00:16:49:06
down, shake it and everybody

00:16:50:20 - 00:16:53:01
go home, go back to your life

00:16:54:01 - 00:16:55:08
or try to rebuild,

00:16:55:08 - 00:16:57:05
you know what's left of it.

00:16:57:05 - 00:16:58:02
And let's, let's,

00:16:58:02 - 00:16:58:14
let's go

00:16:58:14 - 00:16:59:24
and scoop back up

00:16:59:24 - 00:17:00:09
the people

00:17:00:09 - 00:17:01:23
who are really dangerous, of which.

00:17:01:23 - 00:17:02:14
Right, because

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:03:23
because the goal of our prison

00:17:03:23 - 00:17:05:17
system is supposed to be to

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:06:12
to help reform

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:07:06
and rehabilitate

00:17:07:06 - 00:17:08:17
and integrate people into society,

00:17:08:17 - 00:17:10:15
not to create this caste system

00:17:10:15 - 00:17:12:09
that separates people

00:17:12:09 - 00:17:13:04
from us

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:14:05
completely and forever,

00:17:14:05 - 00:17:16:05
which is essentially what our

00:17:16:05 - 00:17:17:10
justice system does.

00:17:17:10 - 00:17:18:04
I mean, it

00:17:18:04 - 00:17:18:21
is it

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:20:01
almost not almost

00:17:20:01 - 00:17:21:20
it creates two different levels of,

00:17:21:20 - 00:17:24:02
say, these people and these people,

00:17:24:02 - 00:17:26:12
you're not as equal as humans as us.

00:17:26:12 - 00:17:28:06
You're it's creates an apartheid.

00:17:28:06 - 00:17:29:15
It really does.

00:17:29:19 - 00:17:30:02
Yeah.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:31:14
And it's designed to do

00:17:31:14 - 00:17:32:15
exactly what you just said.

00:17:32:15 - 00:17:34:00
It also to

00:17:34:00 - 00:17:35:17
protect society

00:17:35:17 - 00:17:37:23
from people who are truly dangerous.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:39:00
That's what it's supposed to do.

00:17:39:00 - 00:17:40:05
But that's not what it does.

00:17:40:05 - 00:17:41:17
No, that's what we do. Yes.

00:17:41:17 - 00:17:43:03
Because the percentage of people

00:17:43:03 - 00:17:44:23
that are in prison in America

00:17:44:23 - 00:17:45:19
that are truly

00:17:45:19 - 00:17:47:23
dangerous is a tiny, tiny

00:17:47:23 - 00:17:49:22
fraction of the overall number.

00:17:49:22 - 00:17:51:19
And it wasn't always like this. Yes.

00:17:51:19 - 00:17:52:18
It wasn't. Right.

00:17:52:18 - 00:17:55:11
And we got this way through politics.

00:17:55:12 - 00:17:55:23
In some way,

00:17:55:23 - 00:17:57:07
which is why I like to talk about right.

00:17:57:07 - 00:17:59:16
In terms of. Politics and economics.

00:18:00:04 - 00:18:00:23
And economics,

00:18:00:23 - 00:18:02:02
which I tie the two together.

00:18:02:02 - 00:18:02:19
Very much so.

00:18:02:19 - 00:18:04:02
But politics and economics and

00:18:04:02 - 00:18:04:20
what's convenient

00:18:06:01 - 00:18:07:04
Let's talk about that a little bit,

00:18:07:04 - 00:18:08:19
specifically

00:18:08:19 - 00:18:11:09
what you see towards a systemic solution.

00:18:11:17 - 00:18:12:11
And more importantly,

00:18:12:11 - 00:18:14:01
when you're talking to people

00:18:14:01 - 00:18:15:04
I know you've talked to presidents

00:18:15:04 - 00:18:16:11
and I like to have some conversations

00:18:16:11 - 00:18:16:21
about that,

00:18:16:21 - 00:18:18:06
like you've talked to presidents

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:20:11
and dignitaries about this.

00:18:20:11 - 00:18:21:05
So I think you had

00:18:21:05 - 00:18:22:06
a really interesting conversation

00:18:22:06 - 00:18:23:04
with Clinton.

00:18:23:04 - 00:18:23:20
I love to

00:18:23:20 - 00:18:24:15
I love to figure out

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:26:00
like I love to talk through.

00:18:26:00 - 00:18:26:13
When you

00:18:26:13 - 00:18:27:16
when you have these conversations

00:18:27:16 - 00:18:29:08
with leaders like presidents,

00:18:29:08 - 00:18:30:06
you can talk about Clinton

00:18:30:06 - 00:18:31:13
or whoever else you want.

00:18:31:13 - 00:18:32:23
How does this conversation go

00:18:32:23 - 00:18:34:22
and what's usually like

00:18:34:22 - 00:18:36:10
preventing them from really understanding

00:18:36:10 - 00:18:38:01
what's happening here?

00:18:38:16 - 00:18:39:19
I want to talk about that.

00:18:39:19 - 00:18:42:04
But before we do, I want to just

00:18:42:04 - 00:18:44:15
I wanted to reference back to that 1993.

00:18:44:16 - 00:18:45:22
Sure. Go ahead. Go ahead. But

00:18:47:02 - 00:18:48:14
because last night

00:18:48:14 - 00:18:49:23
or yesterday afternoon,

00:18:49:23 - 00:18:51:13
I got a text from an attorney

00:18:51:13 - 00:18:52:17
for a guy named Ben

00:18:52:17 - 00:18:54:10
Simmons who was on my podcast

00:18:54:10 - 00:18:56:08
Wrongful Conviction is the podcast.

00:18:56:08 - 00:18:57:21
And Vincent,

00:18:57:21 - 00:18:59:01
one of the more powerful interviews

00:18:59:01 - 00:18:59:16
I've ever done.

00:18:59:16 - 00:19:02:23
He's been in prison for 44 years

00:19:03:01 - 00:19:06:21
In Louisiana totally innocent

00:19:07:21 - 00:19:09:05
he's there

00:19:09:15 - 00:19:12:02
because he was classic

00:19:13:08 - 00:19:15:01
to kill a Mockingbird type of case,

00:19:15:01 - 00:19:16:00
I guess you could say.

00:19:16:00 - 00:19:20:07
He was accused by two young white

00:19:20:07 - 00:19:22:12
sisters of

00:19:23:13 - 00:19:25:22
all sorts of horrendous acts

00:19:25:22 - 00:19:28:15
against them. Yeah,

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:30:19
it was abundantly clear from day

00:19:30:19 - 00:19:32:10
one that they made up the story.

00:19:32:10 - 00:19:33:11
They didn't even report it

00:19:33:11 - 00:19:35:15
until weeks later.

00:19:35:19 - 00:19:38:11
And what seems to be the case

00:19:38:11 - 00:19:41:10
is that they were being

00:19:41:16 - 00:19:44:09
they were engaged

00:19:44:09 - 00:19:46:17
in these activities with their cousin

00:19:46:17 - 00:19:47:10
who was older,

00:19:48:09 - 00:19:49:23
and they didn't, you know,

00:19:49:23 - 00:19:51:15
they didn't want to fess up to that.

00:19:51:15 - 00:19:52:23
So you know, this is this

00:19:52:23 - 00:19:53:13
like I said, this

00:19:53:13 - 00:19:55:07
story is as old as time.

00:19:55:07 - 00:19:56:00
The

00:19:56:22 - 00:19:59:03
the cousin's brother, I believe,

00:19:59:03 - 00:20:01:00
was one of the investigating officer,

00:20:01:00 - 00:20:02:16
was Laborde

00:20:02:16 - 00:20:03:15
is a family down

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:04:23
there is a very powerful family

00:20:04:23 - 00:20:06:10
in this in this area.

00:20:06:10 - 00:20:07:08
And so obviously

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:09:15
he wasn't going down for it.

00:20:09:15 - 00:20:11:00
And Vincent,

00:20:11:00 - 00:20:12:14
when he went to the police station,

00:20:12:14 - 00:20:12:24
and wouldn't

00:20:12:24 - 00:20:16:14
confess, was shot in the police station.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:17:22
by the officers.

00:20:17:22 - 00:20:20:01
Yeah, they shot him in the police station

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:21:07
and missed his heart by an inch

00:20:21:07 - 00:20:23:16
Is you can't make this shit up. Right.

00:20:23:16 - 00:20:23:22
And he,

00:20:23:22 - 00:20:25:08
of course, was sentenced to life

00:20:25:08 - 00:20:26:24
without parole.

00:20:26:24 - 00:20:28:23
He's been in, like I said, since God,

00:20:28:23 - 00:20:30:07
let's see. 44 years.

00:20:30:07 - 00:20:31:02
What even is that?

00:20:31:02 - 00:20:31:19
You, you aren't

00:20:31:19 - 00:20:33:18
even close to 44 years old yet, right.

00:20:33:18 - 00:20:35:01
So now I'm getting close.

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:38:12
But, but it's just, it's unimaginable.

00:20:38:22 - 00:20:40:23
So I got a text yesterday

00:20:41:24 - 00:20:45:09
from the attorney, Justin Bonas, who said

00:20:45:17 - 00:20:46:17
I thought you may want

00:20:46:17 - 00:20:48:11
he sent me a clip from Instagram.

00:20:48:11 - 00:20:48:18
He said,

00:20:48:18 - 00:20:49:21
thought you may want to watch that.

00:20:49:21 - 00:20:51:00
You have been a major part

00:20:51:00 - 00:20:52:13
in getting us some traction, bro,

00:20:52:13 - 00:20:54:06
with five exclamation points,

00:20:54:06 - 00:20:55:24
God willing. Vincent gets out soon.

00:20:55:24 - 00:20:57:07
Got a hearing on the 14th.

00:20:57:07 - 00:20:58:05
Maybe you and Vincent

00:20:58:05 - 00:20:59:23
get an early present.

00:20:59:23 - 00:21:02:14
He was on CBS This Morning.

00:21:02:14 - 00:21:04:01
I'm getting the chills

00:21:04:01 - 00:21:05:16
where the sisters admitted

00:21:05:16 - 00:21:07:00
that they made it up.

00:21:07:00 - 00:21:08:01
Wow.

00:21:08:01 - 00:21:10:08
Okay, so it should be instant we should be done.

00:21:10:23 - 00:21:11:15
We should be done.

00:21:11:15 - 00:21:12:04
But, you know,

00:21:12:07 - 00:21:14:00
it don't work that way. No, we don't.

00:21:14:00 - 00:21:15:06
We now,

00:21:15:06 - 00:21:17:01
listen, I mean, we've got too many cases

00:21:17:01 - 00:21:17:19
where, you know,

00:21:17:19 - 00:21:19:17
the evidence is completely falling apart,

00:21:19:17 - 00:21:21:14
and yet the person remains in prison

00:21:21:14 - 00:21:22:15
where there's DNA to prove

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:24:06
they're innocent, where there's

00:21:24:06 - 00:21:25:13
the witness, the only witness is,

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:26:13
you know, it changes their story.

00:21:26:13 - 00:21:28:00
Whatever it is, it doesn't mean

00:21:28:00 - 00:21:30:03
they still keep you in if they can. So

00:21:31:04 - 00:21:32:12
so back to your question.

00:21:32:12 - 00:21:34:05
So, you know, to

00:21:34:05 - 00:21:35:07
you come back to that question

00:21:35:07 - 00:21:36:16
because we'll come back to the question

00:21:36:16 - 00:21:37:17
about the president's

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:38:09
I'm going to separate that.

00:21:38:09 - 00:21:39:05
Let's come back to that

00:21:39:05 - 00:21:41:02
because I want to go down this

00:21:41:02 - 00:21:42:03
rabbit hole

00:21:42:03 - 00:21:42:24
of some of these unjust

00:21:42:24 - 00:21:44:19
some of these unjust cases

00:21:44:19 - 00:21:46:24
since we're there right now.

00:21:46:24 - 00:21:48:08
I want to talk about some cases in Ohio.

00:21:48:08 - 00:21:50:15
if that's okay. Yeah. Please. Yeah.

00:21:51:01 - 00:21:51:17
And then we're going to

00:21:51:17 - 00:21:52:11
I do want to come back.

00:21:52:11 - 00:21:53:13
I'm actually going to ask you a question

00:21:53:13 - 00:21:55:07
about the president and Kim Kardashian

00:21:55:07 - 00:21:56:06
But since we're on

00:21:56:06 - 00:21:57:13
this part of the subject

00:21:57:13 - 00:21:58:17
of really discussing

00:21:58:17 - 00:22:00:06
some of these specific facts

00:22:00:06 - 00:22:01:02
I want to talk about.

00:22:01:02 - 00:22:02:12
I would be remiss

00:22:02:12 - 00:22:03:10
being from Ohio

00:22:03:10 - 00:22:04:09
and having a good amount

00:22:04:09 - 00:22:05:20
of our audience from Cincinnati

00:22:05:20 - 00:22:07:15
and Cleveland and Columbus

00:22:07:15 - 00:22:08:07
to not address

00:22:08:07 - 00:22:10:08
what's going on here in Ohio. So

00:22:11:21 - 00:22:13:01
there are a couple of Ohio cases

00:22:13:01 - 00:22:13:19
I definitely want,

00:22:13:19 - 00:22:15:04
but I think people should just hear

00:22:15:04 - 00:22:16:17
and understand

00:22:16:17 - 00:22:18:00
the basics of what's going on.

00:22:18:00 - 00:22:19:00
Just to give you some sense

00:22:19:00 - 00:22:20:19
that of how bad things are.

00:22:20:19 - 00:22:22:15
And there's one that there's

00:22:22:15 - 00:22:23:20
there's a couple I want to go over that

00:22:23:20 - 00:22:24:18
I know you're working on.

00:22:24:18 - 00:22:25:20
So the Kevin Keith case

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:27:10
as well as John Jones case.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:28:24
And I'll let's start with Kevin Keith

00:22:28:24 - 00:22:29:22
and I think

00:22:30:03 - 00:22:31:23
just explaining the facts

00:22:31:23 - 00:22:33:09
of what's happened in that case

00:22:33:09 - 00:22:34:23
and just how outrageous it was,

00:22:34:23 - 00:22:37:13
I think people just need to hear

00:22:37:13 - 00:22:39:06
because it doesn't even sound believable.

00:22:39:06 - 00:22:41:15
It sounds like something you'd see on a

00:22:41:15 - 00:22:42:14
Netflix drama.

00:22:42:14 - 00:22:44:12
But this is the United States of America

00:22:44:12 - 00:22:45:11
its criminal justice system.

00:22:45:11 - 00:22:47:00
So Kevin Keith like

00:22:47:00 - 00:22:49:07
tell us tell us a little bit about him.

00:22:49:07 - 00:22:51:09
As the United States of Ohio right here.

00:22:51:09 - 00:22:52:02
I mean, be

00:22:53:11 - 00:22:55:18
and not to pick on Ohio, but you can.

00:22:55:18 - 00:22:56:24
Pick on Ohio when it comes to this.

00:22:56:24 - 00:22:58:02
It's fine. Yeah.

00:22:58:02 - 00:23:00:07
Look, Ohio is bad, bad, bad.

00:23:00:07 - 00:23:01:02
There's a lot of states

00:23:01:02 - 00:23:01:20
that are terrible.

00:23:01:20 - 00:23:02:07
But, you know,

00:23:02:07 - 00:23:04:22
Ohio is it's not it's not a

00:23:06:04 - 00:23:07:21
it's not a beacon of light in this area.

00:23:07:21 - 00:23:09:11
By any stretch of the imagination.

00:23:09:11 - 00:23:12:19
Kevin Keiths case this goes back God about

00:23:13:23 - 00:23:16:00
close to 30 years now.

00:23:16:00 - 00:23:18:09
And what happened was there was a

00:23:19:23 - 00:23:24:06
an individual who was apparently running

00:23:24:06 - 00:23:25:14
a robbery

00:23:25:14 - 00:23:28:17
and drug ring with some local cops

00:23:28:17 - 00:23:30:20
and the feds were investigating it

00:23:31:12 - 00:23:33:11
and this guy came to find out

00:23:33:11 - 00:23:35:03
this investigation was going on

00:23:35:03 - 00:23:36:22
and went to the home of somebody

00:23:36:22 - 00:23:39:10
who he believed to be the informant

00:23:39:10 - 00:23:39:24
to kill him.

00:23:41:01 - 00:23:43:07
Fortunately for that guy, he wasn't home.

00:23:43:07 - 00:23:44:22
But unfortunately, six

00:23:44:22 - 00:23:47:05
members of the family were in the home

00:23:47:05 - 00:23:48:16
at that time,

00:23:49:04 - 00:23:51:15
and all six of them were shot,

00:23:51:15 - 00:23:53:08
three died, three lived.

00:23:53:08 - 00:23:54:12
It was a

00:23:55:14 - 00:23:57:00
gruesome situation.

00:23:57:00 - 00:24:00:06
Obviously, three of them were children.

00:24:00:12 - 00:24:01:23
And

00:24:02:12 - 00:24:04:14
the issue seems to have been that

00:24:04:14 - 00:24:08:04
the authorities were not in any mood

00:24:08:04 - 00:24:10:13
to arrest the actual perpetrator,

00:24:11:05 - 00:24:12:05
who I believe was

00:24:12:05 - 00:24:13:17
known to them at the time

00:24:13:17 - 00:24:16:02
because he had information on them

00:24:16:14 - 00:24:19:04
that could have been extremely

00:24:19:04 - 00:24:21:01
inconvenient to come out.

00:24:21:01 - 00:24:23:04
Right. So they had to get a scapegoat.

00:24:23:04 - 00:24:23:21
Obviously,

00:24:23:21 - 00:24:24:18
when a case like this

00:24:24:18 - 00:24:26:22
as high profile as it was

00:24:26:22 - 00:24:29:07
you got to get somebody right.

00:24:29:07 - 00:24:30:24
I mean, there's a saying in the

00:24:30:24 - 00:24:32:05
legal system in this country,

00:24:32:05 - 00:24:33:18
a body for a body.

00:24:33:18 - 00:24:34:05
In this case,

00:24:34:05 - 00:24:35:11
it was a body for

00:24:35:11 - 00:24:36:24
three bodies and three other

00:24:36:24 - 00:24:39:05
grievously wounded people.

00:24:39:05 - 00:24:41:16
So they picked up a local

00:24:41:17 - 00:24:42:21
that they were just basically

00:24:42:21 - 00:24:43:19
looking for a black guy

00:24:43:19 - 00:24:45:17
they could arrest. From what I can tell,

00:24:46:19 - 00:24:46:22
there

00:24:46:22 - 00:24:48:03
was a guy named Kevin Keith

00:24:48:03 - 00:24:49:24
who had moved to town recently

00:24:49:24 - 00:24:52:00
and had been picked up for,

00:24:52:00 - 00:24:53:10
I think, possession of a joint

00:24:53:10 - 00:24:54:05
or something like that.

00:24:54:05 - 00:24:54:17
Going back

00:24:54:17 - 00:24:56:02
to the previous conversation,

00:24:56:02 - 00:24:58:17
so he was in their system

00:24:58:17 - 00:25:02:04
and he was railroaded in ways that are

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:04:10
really unbelievable.

00:25:04:10 - 00:25:05:21
I mean, they made up a phone call

00:25:05:21 - 00:25:06:14
that they claimed

00:25:06:14 - 00:25:09:09
the victim made from the hospital to

00:25:10:09 - 00:25:11:16
which identified him.

00:25:11:16 - 00:25:12:00
Of course,

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:13:01
when the phone records came out,

00:25:13:01 - 00:25:14:01
there were no phone calls

00:25:14:01 - 00:25:16:02
made from the hospital.

00:25:16:03 - 00:25:18:09
Later on, there was someone who called

00:25:18:09 - 00:25:20:14
and identified

00:25:21:16 - 00:25:23:19
a witness

00:25:23:19 - 00:25:24:06
who called up

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:25:21
and identified him,

00:25:25:21 - 00:25:27:10
who claimed to be a nurse

00:25:27:10 - 00:25:30:05
from the hospital, who overheard

00:25:30:05 - 00:25:32:10
one of the victims say his name.

00:25:32:10 - 00:25:35:04
But the nurse got her own name wrong.

00:25:35:23 - 00:25:36:07
Right.

00:25:36:07 - 00:25:38:16
Like her name was whatever.

00:25:38:16 - 00:25:39:21
Let's say her name was Richardson

00:25:39:21 - 00:25:41:04
and she said it was Robertson.

00:25:41:04 - 00:25:42:05
I think she

00:25:42:05 - 00:25:43:08
she almost got it right,

00:25:43:08 - 00:25:45:10
but she screwed it up her own name.

00:25:45:10 - 00:25:46:12
And what I understand,

00:25:46:12 - 00:25:47:10
I think the bigger part of it is

00:25:47:10 - 00:25:49:04
I can say like well,

00:25:49:04 - 00:25:50:22
my understanding is like the basically

00:25:50:22 - 00:25:52:20
the the officers

00:25:52:20 - 00:25:54:00
had some involvement in this

00:25:54:00 - 00:25:54:18
because their

00:25:56:02 - 00:25:56:22
their

00:25:57:09 - 00:25:58:22
their informant is involved in this.

00:25:58:22 - 00:26:00:06
And it actually kind

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:01:19
of complicated situation like I do.

00:26:01:19 - 00:26:02:16
I do think it's important

00:26:02:16 - 00:26:03:06
people understand

00:26:03:06 - 00:26:04:19
like there was like that

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:06:03
that that officers were involved

00:26:06:03 - 00:26:06:22
in this as well

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:07:23
and have been kind

00:26:07:23 - 00:26:09:00
of sticking close to the story

00:26:09:00 - 00:26:09:19
because of that.

00:26:09:19 - 00:26:11:04
I don't know all the particulars of facts

00:26:11:04 - 00:26:11:23
on that part of it,

00:26:11:23 - 00:26:13:05
but I know we talked about that.

00:26:13:05 - 00:26:14:10
If you remember that part.

00:26:14:10 - 00:26:15:22
I think it's important just to just

00:26:15:22 - 00:26:17:21
just to just to bring that up.

00:26:17:21 - 00:26:18:04
Yeah.

00:26:18:04 - 00:26:18:10
I mean,

00:26:18:10 - 00:26:19:19
whether they were complicit in this

00:26:19:19 - 00:26:20:10
because of the fact

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:21:15
that they were operating this

00:26:21:15 - 00:26:22:06
this ring

00:26:22:06 - 00:26:23:08
that when my understanding is that

00:26:23:08 - 00:26:24:11
they were robbing pharmacies

00:26:24:11 - 00:26:24:24
and they were selling

00:26:24:24 - 00:26:26:17
the drugs on the streets,

00:26:26:17 - 00:26:27:01
you know,

00:26:27:01 - 00:26:28:17
knowing what we know about the state

00:26:28:17 - 00:26:30:15
of law enforcement in America.

00:26:30:15 - 00:26:31:20
They were literally

00:26:31:20 - 00:26:32:15
robbing pharmacies

00:26:32:15 - 00:26:34:09
and selling drugs on the streets.

00:26:34:09 - 00:26:35:08
The cops involved,

00:26:35:08 - 00:26:36:09
I think the people need to know

00:26:36:09 - 00:26:37:11
this, that this is crazy.

00:26:37:11 - 00:26:38:21
This was going on. But go ahead.

00:26:38:21 - 00:26:39:09
That's the point

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:40:20
that I wanted to bring up.

00:26:40:20 - 00:26:42:03
And the corruption goes up higher

00:26:42:03 - 00:26:42:15
and higher.

00:26:42:15 - 00:26:44:16
And then later on, by the way,

00:26:44:16 - 00:26:46:01
it turns out that that phone call from

00:26:46:01 - 00:26:46:20
the alleged nurse

00:26:46:20 - 00:26:47:24
was actually made by the daughter

00:26:47:24 - 00:26:49:21
of one of the detectives. So, you know.

00:26:51:05 - 00:26:51:12
They didn't

00:26:51:12 - 00:26:52:23
want all of that to be exposed

00:26:52:23 - 00:26:54:04
because that's part

00:26:54:04 - 00:26:55:11
of what's going on here.

00:26:55:11 - 00:26:57:17
No, Kevin was a convenient scapegoat,

00:26:58:15 - 00:27:00:24
just like Kevin Cooper, who whose podcast

00:27:00:24 - 00:27:01:11
I released

00:27:01:11 - 00:27:03:09
today on my on my

00:27:03:09 - 00:27:04:19
wrongful conviction, who's

00:27:04:19 - 00:27:05:12
whose case is

00:27:05:12 - 00:27:07:01
as grotesque of an injustice

00:27:07:01 - 00:27:09:12
as any guy I've ever heard of.

00:27:09:15 - 00:27:10:19
Kevin has been in prison

00:27:10:19 - 00:27:13:14
since 1983 in California sentenced to death

00:27:14:05 - 00:27:14:23
and his case

00:27:14:23 - 00:27:15:08
is one of the

00:27:15:08 - 00:27:17:22
most disgusting and outrageous

00:27:19:07 - 00:27:20:24
frame jobs I've ever seen.

00:27:20:24 - 00:27:21:06
Again

00:27:21:06 - 00:27:22:14
another home invasion

00:27:22:14 - 00:27:24:21
where four people were brutally murdered

00:27:25:07 - 00:27:27:18
and with knives and hatchets and

00:27:28:07 - 00:27:30:09
another kid was left for dead but

00:27:30:21 - 00:27:32:14
and where the perpetrators remain free

00:27:32:14 - 00:27:33:19
because let's not forget

00:27:33:19 - 00:27:36:12
when when we go and arrest Kevin Keith

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:37:05
and we go and arrest

00:27:37:05 - 00:27:37:24
Kevin Cooper

00:27:37:24 - 00:27:40:04
and then we prosecute and persecute

00:27:40:04 - 00:27:41:10
and convict them,

00:27:41:10 - 00:27:43:07
we do it at the expense of public safety

00:27:43:07 - 00:27:44:20
because the actual perpetrators

00:27:44:20 - 00:27:46:17
are on the street by definition.

00:27:46:17 - 00:27:49:13
So you know, and they go on to commit

00:27:49:13 - 00:27:50:17
more horrendous.

00:27:50:17 - 00:27:52:10
crimes and there's more cases.

00:27:52:10 - 00:27:54:06
There's John Jones there's other people.

00:27:54:06 - 00:27:55:07
I mean, there's a

00:27:55:07 - 00:27:56:10
I just want to just tell people

00:27:56:10 - 00:27:57:07
that there's a whole lot

00:27:57:07 - 00:27:58:11
going on here in Ohio.

00:27:58:11 - 00:27:59:14
And, you know,

00:27:59:14 - 00:28:01:05
we don't have to spend a

00:28:01:05 - 00:28:02:00
ton of time on it,

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:02:13
but I think that's

00:28:02:13 - 00:28:03:20
worth some time because John Jones

00:28:03:20 - 00:28:05:02
is going through this right now.

00:28:05:02 - 00:28:07:03
He is being he's locked up.

00:28:07:04 - 00:28:08:08
You've had him on the show. Definitely.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:09:24
I encourage everybody to watch.

00:28:09:24 - 00:28:11:07
Wrongful conviction.

00:28:11:07 - 00:28:15:09
John Jones is in jail for the shaken baby

00:28:15:09 - 00:28:16:19
case of another shaken

00:28:16:19 - 00:28:17:06
baby case

00:28:17:06 - 00:28:18:05
which has been shown

00:28:18:05 - 00:28:19:20
to be defunct science.

00:28:19:20 - 00:28:21:12
And it's pretty much like it's

00:28:21:12 - 00:28:22:15
it's a clear cut case that he did

00:28:22:15 - 00:28:24:12
not do it. That that's not

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:25:09
That's not

00:28:25:17 - 00:28:27:21
the reason that his infant died

00:28:27:21 - 00:28:29:05
and that he was a good father.

00:28:29:05 - 00:28:30:15
None of that matter because he's black.

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:30:23
Right.

00:28:30:23 - 00:28:32:16
And because it's just they

00:28:32:16 - 00:28:33:15
they found a way

00:28:33:15 - 00:28:34:03
they have

00:28:34:03 - 00:28:36:02
a narrative in their brain about

00:28:36:02 - 00:28:37:06
this is what it looks like,

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:39:04
shaken baby syndrome.

00:28:39:04 - 00:28:40:10
This is what we want to convict

00:28:40:10 - 00:28:41:14
and this is how we can do it.

00:28:41:14 - 00:28:42:21
And we create this.

00:28:42:21 - 00:28:43:11
It's about it's

00:28:43:11 - 00:28:45:01
more about a process

00:28:45:01 - 00:28:46:06
that's that's in place

00:28:46:06 - 00:28:47:05
and less about justice

00:28:47:05 - 00:28:49:14
is because we go through these things

00:28:49:14 - 00:28:50:23
and we've done this process.

00:28:50:23 - 00:28:52:01
It is less about somebody's

00:28:52:01 - 00:28:52:20
life like these.

00:28:52:20 - 00:28:54:22
The hospital won't release records.

00:28:54:22 - 00:28:56:13
I mean, it's just insane.

00:28:56:13 - 00:28:58:10
That this is accepted as okay in America.

00:28:58:10 - 00:28:59:22
So sorry to go on my rant,

00:28:59:22 - 00:29:02:12
but it really is it really is upsetting.

00:29:02:12 - 00:29:02:22
Oh, yeah.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:04:17
And listen John, is it

00:29:04:17 - 00:29:04:22
you know,

00:29:04:22 - 00:29:05:14
I feel like it's

00:29:05:14 - 00:29:06:14
I've never met the man

00:29:06:14 - 00:29:07:21
because I haven't been able to visit him

00:29:07:21 - 00:29:08:11
because of COVID,

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:10:01
but I've spent hours and hours

00:29:10:01 - 00:29:10:18
and hours on the phone

00:29:10:18 - 00:29:12:00
with him from prison.

00:29:12:00 - 00:29:14:01
And, you know, his case

00:29:14:19 - 00:29:16:15
is the shaken baby case.

00:29:16:15 - 00:29:18:04
And this is super important

00:29:18:04 - 00:29:19:00
because Cuyahoga

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:21:07
County and Cuyahoga County

00:29:21:07 - 00:29:22:12
is one of the most

00:29:23:20 - 00:29:27:06
incompetent and

00:29:27:06 - 00:29:30:03
arguably corrupt

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:33:00
forensic labs in the country.

00:29:33:10 - 00:29:34:12
It's been a hotspot

00:29:34:12 - 00:29:35:14
of wrongful convictions

00:29:35:14 - 00:29:38:05
for so many years and shaken baby.

00:29:38:16 - 00:29:38:21
You know,

00:29:38:21 - 00:29:41:11
these things come in clusters, right?

00:29:41:11 - 00:29:42:24
Because you have certain

00:29:42:24 - 00:29:44:14
pediatricians or others

00:29:44:14 - 00:29:47:02
who will testify again and again

00:29:47:02 - 00:29:47:24
in case after case.

00:29:47:24 - 00:29:48:14
And they'll just

00:29:48:14 - 00:29:49:20
one size fits all must

00:29:49:20 - 00:29:51:21
if the baby died, must be shaken baby now

00:29:52:14 - 00:29:54:00
shaken baby syndrome.

00:29:54:00 - 00:29:54:21
And it's so important

00:29:54:21 - 00:29:56:06
that we're here talking about this now

00:29:56:06 - 00:29:57:10
because some of your listeners

00:29:57:10 - 00:29:58:22
are going to end up on a jury one day.

00:29:58:22 - 00:29:59:04
Right.

00:29:59:04 - 00:30:02:07
And I encourage people, don't throw up.

00:30:02:07 - 00:30:03:19
Don't crumple up and throw out that jury.

00:30:03:19 - 00:30:04:12
No.

00:30:04:14 - 00:30:04:22
You know,

00:30:04:22 - 00:30:06:16
go and serve on a jury

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:07:23
and remember the things

00:30:07:23 - 00:30:09:00
that you're hearing today.

00:30:09:00 - 00:30:09:13
And like I said,

00:30:09:13 - 00:30:11:10
listen to the Wrongful Conviction podcast

00:30:11:10 - 00:30:12:15
so you can learn what goes on.

00:30:12:15 - 00:30:14:04
We have a whole episode of Wrongful

00:30:14:04 - 00:30:15:07
Conviction Junk Science

00:30:15:07 - 00:30:16:22
devoted to shaken baby syndrome.

00:30:16:22 - 00:30:18:13
Maybe you could link to it in your bio.

00:30:18:13 - 00:30:20:06
I would definitely do it.

00:30:20:06 - 00:30:22:07
But here's the basics of shaken baby

00:30:22:07 - 00:30:23:02
syndrome, right?

00:30:23:02 - 00:30:25:11
So we as humans

00:30:25:11 - 00:30:26:14
have a very hard time

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:27:02
accepting that

00:30:27:02 - 00:30:29:07
sometimes babies just die, right?

00:30:29:11 - 00:30:31:08
But sometimes they do.

00:30:31:08 - 00:30:32:22
There's all kinds of reasons

00:30:32:22 - 00:30:33:24
why a baby could die.

00:30:33:24 - 00:30:35:01
There's SIDS

00:30:35:01 - 00:30:36:20
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome,

00:30:36:20 - 00:30:37:11
there's sickle

00:30:37:11 - 00:30:38:12
cell trait,

00:30:38:12 - 00:30:39:18
there's various different things

00:30:39:18 - 00:30:41:13
that cause babies to die

00:30:41:13 - 00:30:45:03
unexpectedly without any obvious signs.

00:30:45:13 - 00:30:47:10
Now, a doctor, Dr.

00:30:47:10 - 00:30:48:06
Guth Kelch, in

00:30:48:06 - 00:30:49:14
England, theorized

00:30:49:14 - 00:30:50:13
that there could be a thing

00:30:50:13 - 00:30:52:02
where people were shaking babies.

00:30:52:02 - 00:30:54:04
This was many decades ago

00:30:54:04 - 00:30:55:09
but his basic thing was

00:30:55:09 - 00:30:56:22
he wanted to discourage people

00:30:56:22 - 00:30:58:05
from shaking their babies.

00:30:58:05 - 00:30:59:16
And so he came up with this thing,

00:30:59:16 - 00:31:01:01
but he didn't put out that

00:31:01:01 - 00:31:01:22
he thought that this was

00:31:01:22 - 00:31:03:07
why babies were dying or anything.

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:03:21
And he's later

00:31:03:21 - 00:31:07:20
in later years come to regret publicly.

00:31:07:20 - 00:31:09:22
He said he regrets that he sort of

00:31:10:06 - 00:31:11:06
put this theory out there.

00:31:11:06 - 00:31:13:05
It's been so badly misused.

00:31:13:05 - 00:31:14:17
What we know now is that

00:31:16:14 - 00:31:17:08
it's virtually

00:31:17:08 - 00:31:19:08
impossible to shake a baby hard enough

00:31:19:08 - 00:31:20:06
to rattle its brain

00:31:20:06 - 00:31:21:16
without breaking its neck.

00:31:21:16 - 00:31:23:16
Perfectly logical, right?

00:31:23:16 - 00:31:24:20
But none of these babies

00:31:24:20 - 00:31:25:08
have broken

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:27:06
necks and furthermore, no,

00:31:27:06 - 00:31:29:04
no one has ever seen,

00:31:29:04 - 00:31:31:18
witnessed or videotaped anyone ever

00:31:31:18 - 00:31:33:09
shaking a baby to death.

00:31:33:09 - 00:31:35:03
So this is a medical myth

00:31:35:03 - 00:31:38:03
in my educated opinion, I believe that

00:31:38:20 - 00:31:40:15
everyone in prison on shaken baby

00:31:40:15 - 00:31:42:11
syndrome needs a new trial.

00:31:42:11 - 00:31:44:11
And we need to have actual experts.

00:31:44:11 - 00:31:45:10
In John Jones's

00:31:45:10 - 00:31:45:18
case,

00:31:45:18 - 00:31:46:05
we brought in

00:31:46:05 - 00:31:48:15
one of the foremost experts in the world,

00:31:48:15 - 00:31:49:23
Kate Judson

00:31:49:23 - 00:31:51:03
from the Center for Integrity

00:31:51:03 - 00:31:52:14
and Forensic Sciences.

00:31:52:14 - 00:31:54:18
And she has examined the evidence

00:31:54:23 - 00:31:56:24
with you know,

00:31:57:01 - 00:31:59:03
with with, you know, rigidity

00:31:59:03 - 00:32:00:03
and with with

00:32:00:03 - 00:32:01:12
whatever you want to call it, with,

00:32:01:12 - 00:32:02:19
you know, with the standards

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:03:19
that should be applied to

00:32:03:19 - 00:32:04:22
every one of these cases.

00:32:06:08 - 00:32:07:16
She has no bias.

00:32:07:16 - 00:32:08:16
She doesn't know, John.

00:32:08:16 - 00:32:10:01
She wasn't hired by the defense,

00:32:10:01 - 00:32:11:19
but she has

00:32:12:15 - 00:32:13:17
volunteered her time

00:32:13:17 - 00:32:14:14
to look at this case.

00:32:14:14 - 00:32:15:22
And come back and said

00:32:15:22 - 00:32:18:17
that this baby was not harmed by John or

00:32:18:17 - 00:32:19:12
anyone else.

00:32:19:12 - 00:32:21:15
The baby just freakin died.

00:32:22:00 - 00:32:24:05
And so it's it's a tragedy

00:32:24:05 - 00:32:25:10
on top of a tragedy.

00:32:25:10 - 00:32:27:09
I mean, imagine being a parent,

00:32:27:09 - 00:32:29:05
losing a child

00:32:29:05 - 00:32:31:08
and then being sent to prison

00:32:32:07 - 00:32:33:04
wrongly

00:32:33:04 - 00:32:34:23
because some official

00:32:34:23 - 00:32:35:07
is trying

00:32:35:07 - 00:32:36:09
to make their bones

00:32:36:09 - 00:32:37:17
or move up the ladder.

00:32:37:17 - 00:32:39:01
or get a conviction.

00:32:39:01 - 00:32:40:14
And, you know, and it's just

00:32:40:14 - 00:32:40:24
you're just

00:32:40:24 - 00:32:42:11
you're just disposable, and it's fine.

00:32:42:11 - 00:32:43:17
And I one more thing I want to say.

00:32:43:17 - 00:32:44:10
I'm shaken baby,

00:32:44:10 - 00:32:45:04
because it's so important

00:32:45:04 - 00:32:46:11
because this is Ohio

00:32:46:11 - 00:32:47:07
Sure, this happens

00:32:47:07 - 00:32:48:15
more than maybe anywhere else in

00:32:48:15 - 00:32:49:15
the country, it seems like.

00:32:51:12 - 00:32:52:11
Is that

00:32:53:04 - 00:32:56:02
and this is my theory, right?

00:32:56:03 - 00:32:58:21
When you get mad at something, right?

00:32:58:22 - 00:33:00:17
I don't care what you get mad at.

00:33:00:17 - 00:33:01:14
If it's it

00:33:01:14 - 00:33:02:23
if it's your tennis racket

00:33:02:23 - 00:33:05:07
because you missed a shot or it's your

00:33:06:00 - 00:33:08:08
you know, if it's a person or a,

00:33:08:23 - 00:33:11:00
you know, whatever it might be.

00:33:11:00 - 00:33:13:07
We don't shake things when we're mad.

00:33:13:16 - 00:33:15:20
Right? We throw them,

00:33:15:20 - 00:33:17:20
we hit them or we kick them.

00:33:17:20 - 00:33:19:01
That is our instinct

00:33:19:01 - 00:33:22:20
when we're in a moment of real rage.

00:33:23:06 - 00:33:23:23
Right?

00:33:24:00 - 00:33:26:01
Nobody takes their golf club

00:33:26:03 - 00:33:28:02
and shakes it like you golf club.

00:33:28:02 - 00:33:28:23
You hit a bad shot.

00:33:28:23 - 00:33:31:04
No, people fling it, youv'e seen it on TV right

00:33:31:04 - 00:33:32:02
you shouldn't.

00:33:32:02 - 00:33:33:17
No one should do that.

00:33:33:17 - 00:33:35:02
But it's a relatively benign

00:33:35:02 - 00:33:36:03
activity as long as you don't hit

00:33:36:03 - 00:33:37:03
anybody else.

00:33:37:03 - 00:33:38:14
But the fact is, shaking

00:33:38:14 - 00:33:39:19
is an unnatural act.

00:33:39:19 - 00:33:41:20
And furthermore, I will say this.

00:33:42:04 - 00:33:43:09
I asked people to just think

00:33:43:09 - 00:33:44:06
logically in case

00:33:44:06 - 00:33:45:19
you ever end up on a jury.

00:33:45:19 - 00:33:48:05
Let's say these are normally women

00:33:48:08 - 00:33:49:19
that are convicted of shaken baby

00:33:49:19 - 00:33:51:09
syndrome, caretakers,

00:33:51:09 - 00:33:52:21
daycare providers,

00:33:52:21 - 00:33:54:23
or or parents or grandparents.

00:33:55:09 - 00:33:55:19
Now,

00:33:57:09 - 00:33:57:24
how the

00:33:57:24 - 00:33:58:17
hell is

00:33:58:17 - 00:34:00:18
a woman let's say it's a 120 pound

00:34:00:18 - 00:34:01:21
woman or whatever.

00:34:01:21 - 00:34:05:22
I don't care if she's 175 pounds, I'm 175 pounds

00:34:06:08 - 00:34:07:23
If I want a hold something

00:34:07:23 - 00:34:11:10
that weighs about 12, 15 pounds or 20 pounds out

00:34:11:10 - 00:34:12:01
at arm's length,

00:34:12:01 - 00:34:13:00
you can't shake something

00:34:13:00 - 00:34:13:15
if you're holding it

00:34:13:15 - 00:34:15:22
close to you, it's impossible.

00:34:15:22 - 00:34:18:06
So you want to tell me

00:34:18:06 - 00:34:20:00
that somebody is so strong

00:34:20:00 - 00:34:21:12
that they can hold something out

00:34:21:12 - 00:34:23:09
at arm's length and shake it? Which way?

00:34:23:09 - 00:34:23:22
This way.

00:34:23:22 - 00:34:24:15
This way.

00:34:24:15 - 00:34:25:08
Your arms.

00:34:25:08 - 00:34:26:12
I mean, my arms are tired

00:34:26:12 - 00:34:27:22
from holding nothing.

00:34:27:22 - 00:34:29:06
You're trying to hold your arms out

00:34:29:06 - 00:34:30:21
at that length for a minute

00:34:30:21 - 00:34:32:18
and I'll give you a yoga certificate,

00:34:32:18 - 00:34:34:20
you know what I mean? Because it doesn't

00:34:34:20 - 00:34:37:03
It doesn't make any freaking sense,

00:34:37:03 - 00:34:39:01
but these fucking,

00:34:39:01 - 00:34:40:17
you know, people get up on this

00:34:40:17 - 00:34:42:20
stand they say I'm a pediatrician.

00:34:42:20 - 00:34:44:18
I was licensed by this that college,

00:34:44:18 - 00:34:45:22
but I have blah blah

00:34:45:22 - 00:34:46:21
in that medical school.

00:34:46:21 - 00:34:47:23
And people go, Oh, my God,

00:34:47:23 - 00:34:48:17
this guy really knows

00:34:48:17 - 00:34:49:23
what he's talking about.

00:34:49:23 - 00:34:50:21
And the next thing you know,

00:34:50:21 - 00:34:52:01
the jury is like,

00:34:52:01 - 00:34:53:04
and the juries

00:34:53:04 - 00:34:54:08
that most of the jurors

00:34:54:08 - 00:34:55:12
have babies of their own.

00:34:55:12 - 00:34:56:20
And they don't want to believe

00:34:56:20 - 00:34:58:18
that this can happen from natural causes.

00:34:58:18 - 00:34:59:16
Yeah. Yep.

00:34:59:16 - 00:34:59:24
I agree.

00:34:59:24 - 00:35:01:06
And part of the problem is,

00:35:01:06 - 00:35:02:04
Jason is that

00:35:02:04 - 00:35:03:07
the media has

00:35:03:07 - 00:35:05:20
put this whole false image up

00:35:05:20 - 00:35:07:11
about how our system works. Right.

00:35:07:11 - 00:35:08:01
You know,

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:09:08
law and order is like

00:35:09:08 - 00:35:10:09
you see,

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:11:23
prosecutors always protecting

00:35:11:23 - 00:35:12:22
not to say this

00:35:12:22 - 00:35:14:07
Sometimes they do it.

00:35:14:07 - 00:35:15:07
Officers are always protecting.

00:35:15:07 - 00:35:16:05
But what they don't show you

00:35:16:05 - 00:35:17:23
is that sometimes they're just in there

00:35:17:23 - 00:35:18:18
just to check the mark.

00:35:18:18 - 00:35:19:23
Like, let's just get we need

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:21:04
I need a certain amount of convictions

00:35:21:04 - 00:35:22:04
to move up.

00:35:22:04 - 00:35:24:01
And sometimes they don't show you that,

00:35:24:01 - 00:35:24:22
you know,

00:35:25:05 - 00:35:26:02
our our

00:35:26:02 - 00:35:28:09
our police force gets paid more money

00:35:28:15 - 00:35:30:04
just for convictions. It doesn't matter.

00:35:30:04 - 00:35:31:20
if people are guilty. They get money.

00:35:31:20 - 00:35:33:23
We're incentivized to do injustice in our

00:35:34:03 - 00:35:35:24
within our criminal justice system.

00:35:35:24 - 00:35:37:03
And so how we've painted

00:35:37:03 - 00:35:38:17
things are not accurate. Right.

00:35:38:17 - 00:35:40:22
And so people have have this image

00:35:40:22 - 00:35:41:16
that is false

00:35:41:16 - 00:35:42:23
about how things actually work

00:35:42:23 - 00:35:43:14
within our system.

00:35:43:14 - 00:35:44:16
And I think we have to do everything

00:35:44:16 - 00:35:45:02
we can

00:35:45:02 - 00:35:45:24
to make sure

00:35:45:24 - 00:35:46:23
they see reality

00:35:46:23 - 00:35:49:07
as it is not this false narrative

00:35:49:07 - 00:35:51:12
that we've made in the media

00:35:51:12 - 00:35:52:14
that, you know,

00:35:52:14 - 00:35:54:12
all cops or superheroes. No

00:35:54:12 - 00:35:55:13
Some cops are superheroes.

00:35:55:13 - 00:35:57:05
Some cops are really bad people. Right.

00:35:57:05 - 00:35:59:11
And and they do some really bad things

00:35:59:11 - 00:36:00:01
that we have to see.

00:36:00:01 - 00:36:02:00
Cops we have to see prosecutors.

00:36:02:00 - 00:36:02:23
We have to see our system

00:36:02:23 - 00:36:05:12
as it is not how we want it to be.

00:36:05:12 - 00:36:05:18
No.

00:36:05:18 - 00:36:07:10
And the same is true with CSI

00:36:07:10 - 00:36:08:14
and these other shows. Right.

00:36:08:14 - 00:36:10:01
I mean, I think they should do

00:36:10:01 - 00:36:10:23
multiple seasons

00:36:10:23 - 00:36:11:23
of every one of these shows

00:36:11:23 - 00:36:12:19
where they undo

00:36:12:19 - 00:36:14:02
all the wrongful convictions

00:36:14:02 - 00:36:15:09
that they claim were right.

00:36:15:09 - 00:36:17:13
Because it's you're right.

00:36:17:13 - 00:36:18:07
It's giving people

00:36:18:07 - 00:36:19:15
a false sense of security.

00:36:19:15 - 00:36:21:06
I know it's entertainment and I don't I

00:36:21:06 - 00:36:21:18
but I don't know

00:36:21:18 - 00:36:23:04
whether people can separate that.

00:36:23:04 - 00:36:25:13
And I think it does create a narrative.

00:36:25:23 - 00:36:28:11
Look, fortunately, in recent years,

00:36:28:11 - 00:36:30:10
I think people have started to understand

00:36:30:10 - 00:36:33:03
with making a murderer with Serial,

00:36:33:12 - 00:36:36:05
with show me the staircase with my show.

00:36:36:12 - 00:36:38:05
This is the power of podcasting, right?

00:36:38:05 - 00:36:40:01
I tell people this is the power of

00:36:41:00 - 00:36:42:17
of of what I call Web two.

00:36:42:17 - 00:36:43:11
It's it's

00:36:43:11 - 00:36:45:18
democratized to some extent,

00:36:45:18 - 00:36:47:08
voices and media.

00:36:47:08 - 00:36:48:06
And that's that's the power

00:36:48:06 - 00:36:49:02
of what we have right now.

00:36:49:02 - 00:36:51:07
But you know, it's interesting

00:36:51:07 - 00:36:52:16
because I have my phone next to me.

00:36:52:16 - 00:36:53:09
I probably shouldn't.

00:36:53:09 - 00:36:55:11
But, you know, this is my life

00:36:55:11 - 00:36:56:09
as it stands.

00:36:56:09 - 00:36:57:18
You know, I'm getting a call right now

00:36:57:18 - 00:36:58:05
from a guy

00:36:58:05 - 00:36:58:20
who is in prison

00:36:58:20 - 00:36:59:11
in Mississippi

00:36:59:11 - 00:37:02:02
23 years into his sentence,

00:37:02:02 - 00:37:03:22
a guy named Cheron Edwards,

00:37:03:22 - 00:37:04:11
who was sentenced

00:37:04:11 - 00:37:05:18
twice for the same crime,

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:06:24
which doesn't make any sense,

00:37:06:24 - 00:37:08:12
get 20 plus 20.

00:37:08:12 - 00:37:10:14
And he's not he doesn't claim innocence,

00:37:10:14 - 00:37:12:15
but he was sentenced to 20 years in state

00:37:12:15 - 00:37:13:11
and 20 years in federal

00:37:13:11 - 00:37:14:19
for the exact same crime.

00:37:14:19 - 00:37:15:06
Well,

00:37:15:08 - 00:37:18:03
and I got a call from a guy in Sing Sing

00:37:18:14 - 00:37:21:00
just a few minutes ago, Bruce Bryant,

00:37:21:06 - 00:37:22:15
who's as innocent as could be.

00:37:22:15 - 00:37:24:15
And then the only text I have here since

00:37:24:16 - 00:37:26:10
we've been on the air from

00:37:26:10 - 00:37:26:20
someone who

00:37:26:20 - 00:37:27:21
I call my little sister

00:37:27:21 - 00:37:29:23
Amanda Knox is sending me baby pictures,

00:37:29:23 - 00:37:31:02
which is great.

00:37:31:02 - 00:37:32:04
Wow. Really, really.

00:37:32:04 - 00:37:34:09
Amanda Knox, just sent you. Wow.

00:37:34:24 - 00:37:36:08
Yeah. Yeah, she's serious.

00:37:36:08 - 00:37:37:05
She's incredible.

00:37:37:05 - 00:37:38:12
She's one of my favorite human beings.

00:37:38:12 - 00:37:40:16
And her husband, Chris, is just he's

00:37:40:16 - 00:37:41:14
he's awesome, too.

00:37:41:14 - 00:37:42:09
He has a great book

00:37:42:09 - 00:37:43:08
called Deliver US That.

00:37:43:08 - 00:37:45:07
He wrote a novel is funny as fuck.

00:37:45:07 - 00:37:45:20
But anyway,

00:37:46:24 - 00:37:48:05
and the baby's name is Eureka,

00:37:48:05 - 00:37:49:05
but that's beside the point.

00:37:49:05 - 00:37:50:21
So which I understand

00:37:50:21 - 00:37:52:15
that considering what she's been through.

00:37:52:15 - 00:37:53:18
So yeah.

00:37:53:18 - 00:37:54:22
So anyway, so back to Ohio.

00:37:54:22 - 00:37:57:03
so look in Ohio, John Jones

00:37:57:16 - 00:37:59:04
is demonstrably innocent.

00:37:59:04 - 00:38:01:05
He needs to come home now today,

00:38:01:17 - 00:38:03:12
you know, quick, fast in a hurry.

00:38:03:12 - 00:38:05:17
you're right to say, Rob, that the hospital

00:38:06:21 - 00:38:09:02
has refused to release the records.

00:38:09:02 - 00:38:11:03
That could exonerate him very quickly,

00:38:11:03 - 00:38:12:01
I believe,

00:38:12:01 - 00:38:13:08
which would show that the baby

00:38:13:08 - 00:38:15:09
had a previous medical condition

00:38:15:09 - 00:38:16:02
and explain

00:38:16:02 - 00:38:18:06
why this tragic death happened.

00:38:19:06 - 00:38:20:16
Rob, meanwhile, has been separated

00:38:20:16 - 00:38:23:01
from his other two kids all these years

00:38:23:01 - 00:38:25:17
and has been subjected to, you know,

00:38:26:14 - 00:38:27:09
the worst

00:38:27:09 - 00:38:29:12
that our prison systems have to offer.

00:38:30:13 - 00:38:31:14
And

00:38:32:08 - 00:38:35:02
yet he remains optimistic.

00:38:35:02 - 00:38:37:04
He's not angry or bitter

00:38:37:04 - 00:38:39:09
he just wants to have this

00:38:39:09 - 00:38:41:16
this wrong righted.

00:38:41:16 - 00:38:43:18
And then there's others in the system

00:38:43:18 - 00:38:45:04
in Ohio,

00:38:45:04 - 00:38:46:21
Anthony, Apanovitch, again,

00:38:46:21 - 00:38:48:18
Anthony was on my podcast.

00:38:48:18 - 00:38:50:09
Anthony was on death row for

00:38:51:17 - 00:38:52:00
almost

00:38:52:00 - 00:38:54:09
35 years before DNA proved

00:38:54:09 - 00:38:55:17
he was innocent.

00:38:55:17 - 00:38:57:01
And then on a technicality

00:38:57:01 - 00:38:58:23
after 17 months home,

00:38:58:23 - 00:39:00:04
they went and scooped him up

00:39:00:04 - 00:39:01:08
and put him back in

00:39:01:08 - 00:39:02:19
prison on death row,

00:39:02:19 - 00:39:04:10
even though the DNA has proved

00:39:04:10 - 00:39:05:12
he's innocent.

00:39:05:16 - 00:39:07:21
So DNA proved he was innocent.

00:39:08:13 - 00:39:10:16
He came back home

00:39:10:16 - 00:39:12:14
and they sent him back to jail.

00:39:12:14 - 00:39:14:12
For what reason?

00:39:14:23 - 00:39:17:08
So like I'm just say I like it

00:39:17:08 - 00:39:18:22
and I know the story but just.

00:39:18:22 - 00:39:19:15
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:19:15 - 00:39:20:22
If someone's listening

00:39:20:22 - 00:39:22:00
while they're driving right now,

00:39:22:00 - 00:39:23:07
you might want to pull over

00:39:23:07 - 00:39:25:03
because you're going to be like,

00:39:25:03 - 00:39:27:04
if you might not be able to

00:39:27:04 - 00:39:27:14
you know,

00:39:27:14 - 00:39:28:24
you might lose control of the wheel

00:39:28:24 - 00:39:30:04
when you hear this.

00:39:30:04 - 00:39:33:16
So Anthony Apanovitch was convicted

00:39:33:16 - 00:39:35:14
on the flimsiest of evidence

00:39:35:14 - 00:39:38:01
of a horrible, horrible crime.

00:39:38:22 - 00:39:39:10
And

00:39:42:01 - 00:39:42:22
after

00:39:42:22 - 00:39:43:11
over well

00:39:43:11 - 00:39:46:20
over three decades on death row,

00:39:46:20 - 00:39:48:14
the DNA was finally tested.

00:39:48:14 - 00:39:49:09
The DNA,

00:39:49:09 - 00:39:51:09
which the prosecution had insisted

00:39:51:09 - 00:39:52:04
didn't exist.

00:39:52:04 - 00:39:54:02
They said it was lost or whatever it was.

00:39:54:02 - 00:39:55:08
But he you know,

00:39:55:08 - 00:39:57:12
there was there was no DNA, but there was

00:39:58:05 - 00:40:00:13
and I guess under mounting pressure,

00:40:00:13 - 00:40:01:15
somebody

00:40:01:15 - 00:40:04:05
had sent it to a lab to be tested.

00:40:05:02 - 00:40:07:07
It came back and showed that Anthony was,

00:40:07:07 - 00:40:08:04
in fact, innocent,

00:40:08:04 - 00:40:10:17
just as he had said he was all this time

00:40:10:17 - 00:40:11:08
My understanding

00:40:11:08 - 00:40:12:08
is that the prosecution

00:40:12:08 - 00:40:14:00
had withheld that evidence,

00:40:14:00 - 00:40:15:24
but somebody from the lab

00:40:15:24 - 00:40:18:01
leaked it to the defense.

00:40:18:01 - 00:40:20:06
And so the defense filed a motion

00:40:20:06 - 00:40:21:11
the motion was granted

00:40:21:11 - 00:40:24:00
and Anthony was freed

00:40:24:05 - 00:40:25:24
So they said it was improperly filed.

00:40:25:24 - 00:40:27:09
It was improperly received.

00:40:27:09 - 00:40:28:18
That's what they're trying to argue right

00:40:28:18 - 00:40:29:02
here.

00:40:29:02 - 00:40:31:18
Here's the technicality, which I find

00:40:33:04 - 00:40:34:15
stunning.

00:40:34:23 - 00:40:36:07
Which is that

00:40:36:07 - 00:40:39:07
somebody in a position of power

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:41:06
figured out,

00:40:41:06 - 00:40:42:07
because I guess they had nothing

00:40:42:07 - 00:40:44:04
better to do that day.

00:40:44:04 - 00:40:46:05
That under Ohio law,

00:40:46:11 - 00:40:48:07
the only person that can request

00:40:48:07 - 00:40:51:08
the DNA testing is the person who

00:40:51:20 - 00:40:53:01
the prisoner,

00:40:53:01 - 00:40:53:11
the person

00:40:53:11 - 00:40:55:17
who was incarcerated for the crime.

00:40:55:17 - 00:40:57:24
So what they're saying is

00:40:58:11 - 00:41:00:06
Anthony should have requested

00:41:00:06 - 00:41:01:23
the DNA that they had told him

00:41:01:23 - 00:41:03:23
didn't exist.

00:41:04:06 - 00:41:05:22
And had he done that,

00:41:05:22 - 00:41:07:12
then he could remain free.

00:41:07:12 - 00:41:09:11
But since he didn't.

00:41:09:11 - 00:41:11:05
The DNA doesn't count.

00:41:11:05 - 00:41:12:12
It's like it doesn't count.

00:41:12:12 - 00:41:13:01
You know, they're

00:41:13:01 - 00:41:14:12
they're waiving off the touchdown,

00:41:14:12 - 00:41:15:21
you know what I mean, so to speak. Right.

00:41:15:21 - 00:41:16:23
I don't even understand

00:41:16:23 - 00:41:18:09
what they're saying

00:41:18:09 - 00:41:19:12
because he didn't request it

00:41:19:12 - 00:41:21:10
and he should have requested how we know.

00:41:21:10 - 00:41:22:14
So why can't we request it now?

00:41:22:14 - 00:41:23:03
And it's just off

00:41:23:03 - 00:41:24:10
like I don't understand why why?

00:41:24:10 - 00:41:25:14
Why would he still be there?

00:41:25:14 - 00:41:26:17
Yeah, that's a good question.

00:41:26:17 - 00:41:27:20
Now, why he couldn't why

00:41:27:20 - 00:41:29:02
he couldn't just flip that now?

00:41:29:02 - 00:41:29:14
I don't know.

00:41:29:14 - 00:41:30:15
I have to ask his lawyer that.

00:41:30:15 - 00:41:31:16
He's got a very good lawyer

00:41:31:16 - 00:41:32:13
All of this is crazy.

00:41:32:13 - 00:41:33:18
Like, this is just the point is

00:41:33:18 - 00:41:34:14
the man is innocent.

00:41:34:14 - 00:41:35:18
They know he's innocent,

00:41:35:18 - 00:41:36:07
but they're

00:41:36:07 - 00:41:37:06
they're sending back to jail

00:41:37:06 - 00:41:39:07
because we can. That's awful.

00:41:39:22 - 00:41:40:05
Right?

00:41:40:05 - 00:41:41:13
And it's not like he hasn't

00:41:41:13 - 00:41:42:03
suffered enough.

00:41:42:03 - 00:41:43:07
I mean, the man was in prison for,

00:41:43:07 - 00:41:44:15
like I said, about three

00:41:44:15 - 00:41:45:11
and a half decades.

00:41:45:11 - 00:41:46:21
He was home for 17 months.

00:41:46:21 - 00:41:47:19
He's sitting on the lawn

00:41:47:19 - 00:41:49:08
with his grandchildren

00:41:49:08 - 00:41:51:16
and, you know, a squad car

00:41:51:19 - 00:41:52:17
rolls up like that.

00:41:52:17 - 00:41:54:03
He said it was like a dozen cops

00:41:54:03 - 00:41:55:05
or something.

00:41:55:13 - 00:41:57:13
And there's Barry Scheck calling me

00:41:57:13 - 00:41:58:13
from the Innocence Project.

00:41:58:13 - 00:41:59:04
How do you like that?

00:42:00:05 - 00:42:01:04
So, yes.

00:42:01:04 - 00:42:01:21
This is crazy.

00:42:01:21 - 00:42:04:01
This is this is this is justice in Ohio.

00:42:04:01 - 00:42:06:16
This is justice in America. In America.

00:42:06:16 - 00:42:09:00
And it's just it's it's mind blowing.

00:42:09:00 - 00:42:10:05
And I definitely want people

00:42:10:05 - 00:42:10:18
to get involved

00:42:10:18 - 00:42:11:22
with the Ohio Innocence Project.

00:42:11:22 - 00:42:13:05
There's also

00:42:13:05 - 00:42:14:16
the Alliance for Safety and Justice.

00:42:14:16 - 00:42:16:09
There's also

00:42:16:20 - 00:42:18:11
the Ohio Justice and Policy Center.

00:42:18:11 - 00:42:18:21
Of course,

00:42:18:21 - 00:42:20:13
learn about the wrongful conviction.

00:42:20:13 - 00:42:21:04
You heard of these

00:42:21:04 - 00:42:22:08
you heard these cases, John

00:42:22:08 - 00:42:24:02
Jones, Anthony Apanovitch

00:42:24:02 - 00:42:25:22
Kevin Keith, there are many there.

00:42:25:22 - 00:42:26:06
They are

00:42:26:06 - 00:42:27:15
they are the names that we say today.

00:42:27:15 - 00:42:29:10
But there are so many more names

00:42:29:10 - 00:42:30:14
that are in Ohio.

00:42:30:14 - 00:42:31:11
That are in Mississippi,

00:42:31:11 - 00:42:32:09
that are in California,

00:42:32:09 - 00:42:33:07
that are in New York,

00:42:33:07 - 00:42:34:21
that are in the United States of America,

00:42:34:21 - 00:42:36:04
because we decide to run

00:42:36:04 - 00:42:37:05
our criminal justice system

00:42:37:05 - 00:42:38:04
this way,

00:42:38:08 - 00:42:40:02
one that doesn't care about justice

00:42:40:02 - 00:42:41:15
that cares more about numbers

00:42:41:15 - 00:42:42:09
and locking people up.

00:42:42:09 - 00:42:44:15
And it's something we must must change.

00:42:44:15 - 00:42:45:19
I want to get to some other

00:42:45:19 - 00:42:46:11
and we're going to make sure

00:42:46:11 - 00:42:47:19
everyone has links in your bio

00:42:47:19 - 00:42:49:22
to your all three of your podcasts

00:42:50:03 - 00:42:51:11
and all and all these organizations.

00:42:51:11 - 00:42:52:02
So and

00:42:52:02 - 00:42:53:14
and let's not leave out Tyrone

00:42:53:14 - 00:42:54:15
Noling another innocent

00:42:54:15 - 00:42:56:00
man on death row in Ohio.

00:42:56:00 - 00:42:58:11
I mean, Tyrone Noling is

00:42:58:11 - 00:42:59:02
I'm going to say

00:42:59:02 - 00:43:01:22
he's as innocent of this crime as I am.

00:43:01:22 - 00:43:02:10
Okay.

00:43:02:10 - 00:43:04:11
Like, I you know,

00:43:04:11 - 00:43:05:08
I guarantee you,

00:43:05:08 - 00:43:06:14
I wasn't in Ohio at the time,

00:43:06:14 - 00:43:07:23
so don't come after me.

00:43:07:23 - 00:43:09:24
But no, I mean, it's ridiculous.

00:43:09:24 - 00:43:12:07
It's like these people are just

00:43:12:14 - 00:43:14:01
they're just they're on death row.

00:43:14:01 - 00:43:16:00
And we interviewed another guy from Ohio

00:43:16:00 - 00:43:18:00
who actually was freed after

00:43:18:00 - 00:43:20:16
20 something years on death row.

00:43:20:16 - 00:43:21:20
I'll tell you his name

00:43:21:20 - 00:43:23:13
in a minute I'm going to look it up. What?

00:43:23:13 - 00:43:24:24
Okay. Yeah, we'll come back to it.

00:43:24:24 - 00:43:26:05
We'll come back to that and let me know.

00:43:26:05 - 00:43:27:03
We'll wrap.

00:43:27:03 - 00:43:28:00
I want to talk a little bit

00:43:28:00 - 00:43:29:18
about your meeting with

00:43:29:18 - 00:43:30:12
President Clinton.

00:43:30:12 - 00:43:32:06
I think it was interesting

00:43:32:06 - 00:43:33:00
how you met him.

00:43:33:00 - 00:43:33:22
And then I want to also talk

00:43:33:22 - 00:43:35:14
about Kim Kardashian very quickly,

00:43:35:14 - 00:43:36:03
because I know you've

00:43:36:03 - 00:43:37:01
had her on the podcast.

00:43:37:01 - 00:43:39:09
So Bill Clinton

00:43:39:09 - 00:43:40:11
it's got your first interaction

00:43:40:11 - 00:43:41:07
with the president.

00:43:41:07 - 00:43:41:17
How did you

00:43:41:17 - 00:43:42:13
how did you end up meeting

00:43:42:13 - 00:43:44:10
Bill Clinton and and what?

00:43:44:10 - 00:43:45:03
Because, you know,

00:43:46:07 - 00:43:47:19
Bill had played a big role

00:43:47:19 - 00:43:48:22
in a part of this happening.

00:43:48:22 - 00:43:50:18
In terms of some of these laws.

00:43:50:18 - 00:43:51:24
But so you.

00:43:51:24 - 00:43:52:14
So how did

00:43:52:14 - 00:43:53:10
how did you meet with them

00:43:53:10 - 00:43:54:11
and how did that work?

00:43:54:11 - 00:43:55:10
How did that conversation go?

00:43:55:10 - 00:43:56:10
I'm curious.

00:43:57:12 - 00:43:58:14
Well,

00:43:59:00 - 00:44:01:21
it came about because, you know,

00:44:01:23 - 00:44:04:23
when the oh, it was Joe D'Ambrosio,

00:44:04:23 - 00:44:06:07
that's the other guy that we interviewed

00:44:06:07 - 00:44:07:05
who actually fortunately

00:44:07:05 - 00:44:08:04
has been exonerated.

00:44:08:04 - 00:44:10:12
He was he spent

00:44:10:12 - 00:44:11:08
hold on I'm goint to tell you

00:44:11:08 - 00:44:15:03
Now, he was joined those you don't

00:44:15:04 - 00:44:16:14
Joe D'Ambrosio.

00:44:16:14 - 00:44:19:08
Yeah, he was

00:44:20:15 - 00:44:22:00
the listen,

00:44:22:00 - 00:44:22:20
to this description

00:44:22:20 - 00:44:24:17
of the episode from my podcast

00:44:24:17 - 00:44:25:20
19 year old Anthony

00:44:25:20 - 00:44:26:22
Clan was stabbed to death

00:44:26:22 - 00:44:28:22
in Cleveland, Ohio. September of 1988.

00:44:29:11 - 00:44:31:03
Two men who had a lot to gain worked

00:44:31:03 - 00:44:31:21
with detectives

00:44:31:21 - 00:44:33:02
to spin a narrative claiming

00:44:33:02 - 00:44:34:06
two other men, Joe

00:44:34:06 - 00:44:35:13
D'Ambrosio and Michael Keenan

00:44:35:13 - 00:44:36:09
committed the murder

00:44:36:09 - 00:44:38:06
on September 22nd.

00:44:38:06 - 00:44:40:12
However, the victim was very much alive

00:44:40:12 - 00:44:41:13
the following night.

00:44:41:13 - 00:44:44:02
I mean you can't make this shit up anyway

00:44:45:09 - 00:44:46:05
so.

00:44:46:05 - 00:44:48:13
So the meeting with President Clinton

00:44:48:13 - 00:44:51:13
came about because

00:44:52:10 - 00:44:53:04
you know this was

00:44:53:04 - 00:44:56:14
this was during the election

00:44:56:24 - 00:44:59:08
the Gore versus Bush election.

00:44:59:08 - 00:45:01:07
And my dad had been invited

00:45:01:07 - 00:45:03:11
to an event with President Clinton

00:45:03:11 - 00:45:06:14
and he couldn't go so I, I got to go

00:45:06:14 - 00:45:08:01
sort of, you know,

00:45:08:01 - 00:45:09:22
I wangled my way in there

00:45:09:22 - 00:45:10:10
and I managed

00:45:10:10 - 00:45:11:10
to get myself a seat

00:45:11:10 - 00:45:14:08
at the table with President Clinton,

00:45:14:08 - 00:45:16:12
and I got him engaged in a conversation

00:45:16:12 - 00:45:18:16
about the drug laws.

00:45:18:16 - 00:45:21:03
And he said to me, look,

00:45:21:24 - 00:45:23:05
you know, I believe

00:45:23:05 - 00:45:24:16
if somebody breaks the law,

00:45:24:16 - 00:45:25:16
they should go to jail,

00:45:25:16 - 00:45:26:04
but they shouldn't

00:45:26:04 - 00:45:27:01
spend the best years

00:45:27:01 - 00:45:29:02
of their lives there. And I said, yeah.

00:45:29:02 - 00:45:30:13
Sounds like a very good political answer.

00:45:30:13 - 00:45:31:17
Yeah, go ahead.

00:45:33:03 - 00:45:34:16
Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

00:45:34:16 - 00:45:36:01
I said let's talk about your brother.

00:45:36:01 - 00:45:36:09
And he goes,

00:45:36:09 - 00:45:37:04
I know

00:45:37:05 - 00:45:38:05
his brother had been arrested

00:45:38:05 - 00:45:38:22
for cocaine.

00:45:38:22 - 00:45:40:07
Yeah, I know. A year.

00:45:40:07 - 00:45:42:00
A year in like a country club prison.

00:45:42:00 - 00:45:42:24
And then you know,

00:45:42:24 - 00:45:43:21
I said, you know, today

00:45:43:21 - 00:45:45:15
he would have been sentenced to a

00:45:45:15 - 00:45:46:23
hard core facility.

00:45:46:23 - 00:45:47:24
You know, and spent at least eight

00:45:47:24 - 00:45:49:22
years there. And anyway,

00:45:51:09 - 00:45:52:21
I said to him, Mr.

00:45:52:21 - 00:45:54:03
President,

00:45:54:12 - 00:45:55:05
a month ago,

00:45:55:05 - 00:45:58:02
you granted clemency to five people

00:45:59:02 - 00:45:59:21
for serving time.

00:45:59:21 - 00:46:01:02
on these drug crimes

00:46:01:02 - 00:46:02:16
happened to have a personal letter to you

00:46:02:16 - 00:46:03:03
from one of them.

00:46:03:03 - 00:46:04:24
I'd like to give it to you now.

00:46:04:24 - 00:46:06:05
And so I did.

00:46:06:05 - 00:46:06:13
He read

00:46:06:13 - 00:46:07:11
part of it at the table,

00:46:07:11 - 00:46:09:21
put in his pocket, and I said, so, Mr.

00:46:09:21 - 00:46:13:18
President, it was a woman named Amy Pofull

00:46:13:20 - 00:46:16:13
an Arkansas case, but a federal case.

00:46:16:24 - 00:46:18:19
And I said, Mr.

00:46:18:19 - 00:46:19:02
Mr.

00:46:19:02 - 00:46:20:19
President, I know

00:46:20:19 - 00:46:21:22
what you did for these five

00:46:21:22 - 00:46:23:02
people is wonderful.

00:46:23:02 - 00:46:25:03
But I know of hundreds of other cases

00:46:25:14 - 00:46:27:15
just as bad as those.

00:46:27:15 - 00:46:29:15
And he says, You get them to me

00:46:29:15 - 00:46:31:02
and I'll sign them.

00:46:31:02 - 00:46:31:19
And I was like,

00:46:31:19 - 00:46:33:02
Everybody at the table was like,

00:46:33:02 - 00:46:34:15
What the fuck did he just say?

00:46:34:15 - 00:46:36:07
And I was like, What did the fuck did he just say?

00:46:36:07 - 00:46:37:00
Like everybody was like

00:46:37:00 - 00:46:38:07
what the fuck is going on here?

00:46:38:07 - 00:46:39:03
And so

00:46:39:09 - 00:46:40:22
so then I said, the smartest thing.

00:46:40:22 - 00:46:41:14
Maybe I've said

00:46:41:14 - 00:46:43:11
in I don't know,

00:46:43:11 - 00:46:45:04
all my boring days I said, Well, Mr.

00:46:45:04 - 00:46:47:09
President, when you leave here

00:46:47:09 - 00:46:48:02
Tonight.

00:46:48:02 - 00:46:49:00
I don't really know

00:46:49:00 - 00:46:50:13
how to go about doing that.

00:46:50:13 - 00:46:52:17
I how am I going to get a hold of you?

00:46:52:17 - 00:46:54:06
And he says, Well,

00:46:54:06 - 00:46:55:15
he points me in the direction

00:46:55:15 - 00:46:56:17
of one of his aides

00:46:56:17 - 00:46:58:07
who is standing off to the side.

00:46:58:07 - 00:46:59:11
He says, Follow up with him.

00:46:59:11 - 00:47:00:09
He's going to put you in touch

00:47:00:09 - 00:47:01:06
with the chief counsel

00:47:01:06 - 00:47:02:22
in the Justice Department.

00:47:02:22 - 00:47:04:07
You have to file this and that.

00:47:04:07 - 00:47:04:11
I said,

00:47:04:11 - 00:47:05:19
What kind of cases are you willing to

00:47:05:19 - 00:47:06:07
look at?

00:47:08:05 - 00:47:08:24
And he said, Give me

00:47:08:24 - 00:47:09:24
nonviolent first

00:47:09:24 - 00:47:13:10
offenses, people who are already served,

00:47:13:10 - 00:47:15:21
at least, you know, some

00:47:15:21 - 00:47:17:10
period of time at least.

00:47:17:10 - 00:47:18:18
like 5 years or whatever,

00:47:18:18 - 00:47:19:11
he said, I don't remember

00:47:19:11 - 00:47:21:15
exactly it was a long time ago.

00:47:21:15 - 00:47:24:09
And and then I worked with what

00:47:24:17 - 00:47:25:03
I work

00:47:25:03 - 00:47:26:05
with, a wonderful organization

00:47:26:05 - 00:47:26:19
called Families

00:47:26:19 - 00:47:28:03
Against Mandatory Minimums,

00:47:28:03 - 00:47:30:23
which is FAMM famm.org

00:47:31:15 - 00:47:33:23
And so I got together with FAMM

00:47:33:23 - 00:47:36:07
and we compiled a list of cases

00:47:37:11 - 00:47:39:12
federal cases,

00:47:39:12 - 00:47:42:00
people that we wanted to advocate for.

00:47:42:16 - 00:47:43:24
And long story short,

00:47:43:24 - 00:47:45:03
I followed up and followed up

00:47:45:03 - 00:47:47:04
and followed up and kept following up

00:47:48:03 - 00:47:49:21
what it takes with politics.

00:47:49:21 - 00:47:50:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:50:14 - 00:47:52:19
I found every possible person

00:47:52:19 - 00:47:53:09
I could think of.

00:47:53:09 - 00:47:53:23
that could get through

00:47:53:23 - 00:47:56:21
And finally I found the right person. And

00:47:58:13 - 00:47:59:16
ended up getting

00:47:59:16 - 00:48:03:13
17 people clemency combined.

00:48:03:13 - 00:48:05:15
They were serving. I added it up one day.

00:48:05:15 - 00:48:08:18
I think together they had 565

00:48:08:18 - 00:48:11:19
years of prison time left to go.

00:48:11:19 - 00:48:14:19
One woman, Diane Coffman, was serving

00:48:14:19 - 00:48:15:16
a mandatory

00:48:15:16 - 00:48:19:08
sentence of 85 years in Texas.

00:48:19:08 - 00:48:21:22
She was 19 and she was arrested,

00:48:21:22 - 00:48:23:05
so she would have been 104

00:48:23:05 - 00:48:25:18
when she was eligible for parole.

00:48:25:18 - 00:48:27:18
She was freed to 29.

00:48:27:18 - 00:48:29:03
And you know,

00:48:29:03 - 00:48:30:07
and these people have gone on

00:48:30:07 - 00:48:31:09
to do wonderful things.

00:48:31:09 - 00:48:32:03
It's important to note

00:48:32:03 - 00:48:33:19
that none of them have gotten back

00:48:33:19 - 00:48:35:07
and gone back to prison.

00:48:35:07 - 00:48:36:09
I think a couple of a couple of them

00:48:36:09 - 00:48:37:11
are actually innocent.

00:48:37:11 - 00:48:39:22
The rest of them were like Minor, minor,

00:48:39:22 - 00:48:40:18
you know, Kemba

00:48:40:18 - 00:48:42:18
Smith and people like that were minor.

00:48:42:18 - 00:48:44:03
Minor, Serena Yes.

00:48:44:03 - 00:48:44:23
I mean, listen,

00:48:44:23 - 00:48:46:14
even when you commit a crime, you don't

00:48:46:14 - 00:48:47:17
you don't have to audition

00:48:47:17 - 00:48:49:04
for humanity for the rest of your life.

00:48:49:04 - 00:48:50:08
Like, the bottom line is

00:48:50:08 - 00:48:51:24
you were

00:48:51:24 - 00:48:53:15
supposed to be about rehabilitation,

00:48:53:15 - 00:48:55:23
not about separation forever.

00:48:55:23 - 00:48:57:23
That's what that's the most effective

00:48:58:22 - 00:48:59:14
pipeline.

00:48:59:14 - 00:49:01:08
I'm going to steal that.

00:49:01:08 - 00:49:01:23
Yeah.

00:49:02:00 - 00:49:03:00
Thank you I don't even know what I said.

00:49:03:00 - 00:49:04:02
So whatever I said after.

00:49:04:02 - 00:49:05:09
You don't have a audition for humanity,

00:49:05:09 - 00:49:06:14
the rest of your life, that's good.

00:49:06:14 - 00:49:08:02
Oh, that's not mine.

00:49:08:02 - 00:49:09:00
That's actually Shakira

00:49:09:00 - 00:49:10:09
Diaz's

00:49:10:09 - 00:49:11:10
the person with their lives

00:49:11:10 - 00:49:12:04
for safety and justice.

00:49:12:04 - 00:49:13:00
That's where I got it from.

00:49:13:00 - 00:49:15:10
So she's the one you got to quote

00:49:15:24 - 00:49:16:17
the person you met.

00:49:16:17 - 00:49:20:02
So let me just say one thing.

00:49:20:02 - 00:49:20:14
I want to talk about

00:49:20:14 - 00:49:21:14
Kim Kardashian quickly

00:49:21:14 - 00:49:22:10
then I got a couple

00:49:22:10 - 00:49:23:08
of Rapid-Fire questions

00:49:23:08 - 00:49:24:09
that are just quick Rapid Fire.

00:49:24:09 - 00:49:25:21
So you've interviewed

00:49:25:21 - 00:49:27:06
Kim Kardashian on your show

00:49:27:06 - 00:49:28:05
and she's been

00:49:28:05 - 00:49:28:24
you know,

00:49:28:24 - 00:49:29:10
I guess there's

00:49:29:10 - 00:49:31:08
this Love-Hate relationship with a person

00:49:31:08 - 00:49:32:10
that's like Kim Kardashian.

00:49:32:10 - 00:49:34:08
But I think there's no doubt

00:49:34:08 - 00:49:34:16
she's done

00:49:34:16 - 00:49:36:14
a lot for criminal justice reform.

00:49:36:14 - 00:49:37:13
Tell me about

00:49:37:13 - 00:49:38:07
tell me about how

00:49:38:07 - 00:49:39:14
that podcast interview went

00:49:39:14 - 00:49:41:18
and what might surprise people

00:49:41:18 - 00:49:42:21
about Kim Kardashian

00:49:45:08 - 00:49:46:06
Well.

00:49:46:14 - 00:49:49:08
First of all, I have nothing

00:49:49:08 - 00:49:51:15
but good things to say about her.

00:49:52:23 - 00:49:55:01
She's been on my show

00:49:55:01 - 00:49:57:23
twice or three times now.

00:49:57:23 - 00:50:00:08
One time I just interviewed her at a time

00:50:00:08 - 00:50:01:03
when she had,

00:50:01:03 - 00:50:02:02
you know, recently

00:50:02:02 - 00:50:04:08
dived headlong into this arena.

00:50:06:06 - 00:50:09:03
She showed up on time with no entourage,

00:50:09:03 - 00:50:13:11
no drama whatsoever, was informed

00:50:14:13 - 00:50:17:10
was focused

00:50:17:18 - 00:50:20:02
and was just,

00:50:20:02 - 00:50:22:18
you know, dynamite to to work

00:50:22:18 - 00:50:25:07
with And, you know,

00:50:26:08 - 00:50:28:11
the second time we

00:50:28:11 - 00:50:30:12
you know, I had

00:50:31:15 - 00:50:32:17
I had gotten my friend

00:50:32:17 - 00:50:34:03
Scott Rudnick

00:50:34:03 - 00:50:35:21
involved in the Julius Jones case.

00:50:35:21 - 00:50:37:10
And Scott reached out to Kim,

00:50:37:10 - 00:50:39:16
and Kim got deeply involved in Julius

00:50:39:16 - 00:50:40:00
this case.

00:50:40:00 - 00:50:41:18
I mean, more so than anybody realized.

00:50:41:18 - 00:50:43:20
So I think that there's

00:50:46:06 - 00:50:47:01
I think that

00:50:47:01 - 00:50:49:20
that she has a tremendous

00:50:50:06 - 00:50:51:22
played a tremendous role in helping

00:50:51:22 - 00:50:53:13
to prevent his execution. Yes.

00:50:53:13 - 00:50:55:05
She works with Sean Holley a lot, too.

00:50:55:05 - 00:50:55:12
And though

00:50:55:12 - 00:50:57:00
Sean Holley has been on the show to

00:50:57:00 - 00:50:57:19
one of our attorneys.

00:50:58:23 - 00:51:00:00
I don't know, Sean, but I should.

00:51:00:00 - 00:51:00:20
But anyway.

00:51:00:20 - 00:51:01:17
Just one of her attorneys

00:51:01:17 - 00:51:03:18
that's helped her through that case.

00:51:03:22 - 00:51:04:05
Yeah,

00:51:04:14 - 00:51:05:10
I don't know if it was that case

00:51:05:10 - 00:51:06:02
but helped her do others.

00:51:06:02 - 00:51:07:02
I'll talk to you about that in a minute.

00:51:07:02 - 00:51:07:18
Go ahead.

00:51:08:16 - 00:51:10:17
I mean, Kim went and visited

00:51:10:17 - 00:51:11:15
Julius in prison

00:51:11:15 - 00:51:14:05
and she went and sat with the governor

00:51:14:05 - 00:51:16:14
at his home, had dinner with his family.

00:51:16:14 - 00:51:18:03
And that's just the beginning of what.

00:51:18:03 - 00:51:19:04
Wow. Yes.

00:51:19:04 - 00:51:22:08
And she has been just a you know,

00:51:22:20 - 00:51:25:04
I mean, look this work.

00:51:25:18 - 00:51:28:12
As you know, once you start on it

00:51:29:02 - 00:51:31:00
and once you you know, she,

00:51:31:00 - 00:51:34:03
like I did, was successful on her first

00:51:34:21 - 00:51:37:18
very first case, that fabulous woman

00:51:37:18 - 00:51:39:23
that she was able to get

00:51:39:23 - 00:51:41:24
the

00:51:43:03 - 00:51:43:16
talk guy

00:51:43:16 - 00:51:45:05
we used to call a president

00:51:45:05 - 00:51:46:21
whose name I won't mention because.

00:51:46:21 - 00:51:47:05
Yeah, okay.

00:51:47:05 - 00:51:47:20
I did okay.

00:51:47:20 - 00:51:49:06
The president was formerly president

00:51:49:06 - 00:51:50:03
yeah there we go

00:51:50:03 - 00:51:51:14
The evil orange clown.

00:51:51:14 - 00:51:54:08
I mean, she managed to get him to.

00:51:54:08 - 00:51:55:12
And she took a lot of slack for that.

00:51:55:12 - 00:51:57:04
I remember Sean showed

00:51:57:04 - 00:51:58:12
the point I was going to make with her lawyer.

00:51:58:12 - 00:51:59:10
Sean showed up

00:51:59:10 - 00:51:59:24
that helped with that

00:51:59:24 - 00:52:00:20
case, showed up with her

00:52:00:20 - 00:52:02:06
to the White House.

00:52:02:19 - 00:52:03:14
When they did that.

00:52:03:14 - 00:52:04:14
And everyone was like,

00:52:04:14 - 00:52:06:03
try to give her slack.

00:52:06:03 - 00:52:07:00
But I just tell people

00:52:07:00 - 00:52:08:18
at the end of the day, listen,

00:52:08:18 - 00:52:10:00
she got somebody out of jail

00:52:10:00 - 00:52:11:19
that didn't belong in jail.

00:52:11:19 - 00:52:13:10
Everything else is bullshit.

00:52:13:10 - 00:52:15:24
It doesn't really matter if she had to go

00:52:15:24 - 00:52:17:14
to the White House to do it, like,

00:52:17:14 - 00:52:19:00
you know, that's fine.

00:52:19:00 - 00:52:19:18
As long as people

00:52:19:18 - 00:52:20:17
as long as we're serving

00:52:20:17 - 00:52:22:15
our purpose, period.

00:52:22:15 - 00:52:24:11
The woman's name was Alice Maria Jones.

00:52:24:11 - 00:52:25:04
I had the privilege

00:52:25:04 - 00:52:27:09
of giving a speech with her in Colorado.

00:52:27:10 - 00:52:29:22
She's a fabulous woman, you know,

00:52:30:13 - 00:52:32:17
and, you know, and Kim

00:52:32:17 - 00:52:33:15
Kim brought her home.

00:52:33:15 - 00:52:37:12
And so, you know, look, I think we need

00:52:37:12 - 00:52:40:16
to, you know, salute her efforts

00:52:41:13 - 00:52:42:12
I don't really care

00:52:42:12 - 00:52:43:21
what anybody thinks about

00:52:43:21 - 00:52:45:06
what else she does with her life.

00:52:45:06 - 00:52:47:19
It's of no, you know, it's you know.

00:52:48:03 - 00:52:50:24
If she uses our privilege to help people

00:52:51:04 - 00:52:52:07
and I tell that

00:52:52:07 - 00:52:53:19
everybody has some sort of privilege,

00:52:53:19 - 00:52:54:19
a lot of people do.

00:52:54:19 - 00:52:56:04
And it's something that you have.

00:52:56:04 - 00:52:56:14
And when we

00:52:56:14 - 00:52:58:05
when we talk about privilege,

00:52:58:05 - 00:52:59:13
it's often talked about in

00:52:59:13 - 00:53:01:00
the most negative way

00:53:01:00 - 00:53:01:20
is white privilege,

00:53:01:20 - 00:53:03:24
there's male privilege, so on and so forth.

00:53:03:24 - 00:53:04:15
But at the end of day, it's

00:53:04:15 - 00:53:05:10
something you have

00:53:05:10 - 00:53:06:19
and it's what you choose to do with it.

00:53:06:19 - 00:53:08:14
You can choose to help people

00:53:08:14 - 00:53:09:23
or you can choose to

00:53:11:15 - 00:53:12:13
hurt people,

00:53:12:13 - 00:53:13:22
or you can try to ignore it

00:53:13:22 - 00:53:14:19
that you have it and pretend

00:53:14:19 - 00:53:15:19
like it doesn't exist,

00:53:15:19 - 00:53:18:00
which is also a way of

00:53:18:00 - 00:53:18:17
causing harm.

00:53:18:17 - 00:53:19:23
But if you're using your privilege

00:53:19:23 - 00:53:20:19
to move things forward, that's

00:53:20:19 - 00:53:21:16
the greatest thing you can do.

00:53:21:16 - 00:53:23:21
So I look at I salute her as well.

00:53:23:21 - 00:53:25:01
And at the end of the day,

00:53:25:01 - 00:53:26:03
lots of people

00:53:26:03 - 00:53:27:03
who have privilege don't

00:53:27:03 - 00:53:28:00
do much of anything.

00:53:28:00 - 00:53:29:11
It's about what you do with the with

00:53:29:11 - 00:53:30:09
with the capacity

00:53:30:09 - 00:53:32:02
and the things you've been

00:53:32:02 - 00:53:33:14
blessed to have in your life. Okay.

00:53:33:14 - 00:53:34:21
Two final a quick questions,

00:53:34:21 - 00:53:36:16
just quick responses.

00:53:36:18 - 00:53:38:08
What's an important conviction?

00:53:38:08 - 00:53:39:21
You have or truth

00:53:39:21 - 00:53:42:11
that very few people agree with you on?

00:53:42:11 - 00:53:43:00
Hmm.

00:53:44:07 - 00:53:45:06
Well,

00:53:45:19 - 00:53:49:02
I believe that we should

00:53:52:14 - 00:53:52:24
Hmm.

00:53:53:07 - 00:53:54:04
I got a couple,

00:53:54:04 - 00:53:55:21
but I guess the one I'll focus on

00:53:55:21 - 00:53:56:20
because it's on point

00:53:56:20 - 00:53:58:04
with what we're talking about is

00:53:58:04 - 00:53:59:09
I believe that we should

00:54:00:21 - 00:54:03:13
not abolish prisons, but that we should

00:54:04:14 - 00:54:05:06
release.

00:54:05:06 - 00:54:06:18
And I believe we could do this safely

00:54:06:18 - 00:54:08:11
between 80 and 90% of the people

00:54:08:11 - 00:54:10:20
that are in prison right now. Yep.

00:54:10:20 - 00:54:12:09
And, and that we should,

00:54:12:09 - 00:54:14:11
we should devote those resources to

00:54:15:16 - 00:54:17:05
things that actually matter

00:54:17:05 - 00:54:19:05
and things that are proven to work

00:54:19:05 - 00:54:20:15
to improve public safety

00:54:20:15 - 00:54:23:14
and to uplift people instead of

00:54:24:23 - 00:54:26:20
just, we're just squashing them.

00:54:26:20 - 00:54:28:09
And that means

00:54:28:09 - 00:54:30:03
everything from fixing the streetlights

00:54:30:03 - 00:54:33:24
in the ghettos

00:54:33:24 - 00:54:36:01
to improving mental health,

00:54:36:01 - 00:54:38:04
childhood education,

00:54:38:04 - 00:54:40:06
you know, picking up the garbage,

00:54:40:06 - 00:54:41:03
like everything

00:54:41:03 - 00:54:43:09
that we know actually works

00:54:44:04 - 00:54:45:18
that's what we should be doing

00:54:45:18 - 00:54:46:21
and we should

00:54:46:21 - 00:54:48:02
and with that amount of money

00:54:48:02 - 00:54:48:21
that we would save.

00:54:48:21 - 00:54:49:17
But we currently spend

00:54:49:17 - 00:54:51:16
almost $300 billion

00:54:51:16 - 00:54:53:21
a year on police and prisons

00:54:53:21 - 00:54:56:17
and you know, police are not the answer

00:54:56:17 - 00:54:58:05
and prisons are not the answer.

00:54:58:05 - 00:54:59:21
And they go together.

00:54:59:21 - 00:55:02:13
And I think an extension of that

00:55:02:13 - 00:55:03:23
is that we should be

00:55:06:03 - 00:55:06:15
we should

00:55:06:15 - 00:55:08:20
be taking the emphasis

00:55:10:12 - 00:55:13:12
that we should be debunking this myth

00:55:13:12 - 00:55:15:14
that police are that.

00:55:16:19 - 00:55:19:00
I would just say this police equate

00:55:20:15 - 00:55:23:22
to too many people believe the police

00:55:24:19 - 00:55:26:04
provide public safety

00:55:26:04 - 00:55:29:05
when in fact they do not prevent crimes.

00:55:29:05 - 00:55:31:05
They show up after the crime happened.

00:55:31:05 - 00:55:33:13
And in too many cases they make it worse.

00:55:33:24 - 00:55:37:08
And they do that in a variety of ways.

00:55:37:19 - 00:55:39:14
It's all on full display right now.

00:55:39:14 - 00:55:40:03
The latest,

00:55:40:03 - 00:55:44:10
the Amir Locke video is so troubling

00:55:45:19 - 00:55:48:20
but it's just one of countless incidents.

00:55:48:20 - 00:55:50:22
And we hear about the ones

00:55:50:22 - 00:55:51:07
that are murder.

00:55:51:07 - 00:55:51:24
We don't hear about

00:55:51:24 - 00:55:53:00
all the people that are beaten,

00:55:53:00 - 00:55:53:16
that are maimed,

00:55:53:16 - 00:55:56:22
that are pepper spray that are put into,

00:55:57:12 - 00:55:58:23
you know,

00:55:58:23 - 00:56:00:06
stretchers or wheelchairs

00:56:00:06 - 00:56:01:06
or anything else.

00:56:01:06 - 00:56:03:22
By as a result of police violence,

00:56:04:08 - 00:56:04:18
you know,

00:56:05:19 - 00:56:07:13
the job of police is violence.

00:56:07:13 - 00:56:08:24
And the fact that we use them for

00:56:08:24 - 00:56:12:08
traffic stops and mental health and,

00:56:12:09 - 00:56:14:05
you know, they're not trained

00:56:14:05 - 00:56:16:03
for any of these encounters.

00:56:16:03 - 00:56:18:10
So the results are predictable.

00:56:18:10 - 00:56:18:24
I mean,

00:56:18:24 - 00:56:21:01
and so I think that we you know,

00:56:21:06 - 00:56:22:20
that's you know,

00:56:22:20 - 00:56:24:19
so that's I'd say with my conviction

00:56:24:19 - 00:56:26:20
is that that may be

00:56:26:21 - 00:56:27:24
surprising.

00:56:28:01 - 00:56:28:17
That's a good one.

00:56:28:17 - 00:56:29:01
All right.

00:56:29:01 - 00:56:29:16
Final one.

00:56:29:16 - 00:56:30:08
Very quickly,

00:56:30:08 - 00:56:32:10
what's a motto you have in life,

00:56:32:10 - 00:56:33:09
a Google slogan?

00:56:33:09 - 00:56:34:11
And why

00:56:34:23 - 00:56:36:17
or Google Ads slogan, life, whatever.

00:56:36:17 - 00:56:38:02
This is your billboard.

00:56:38:02 - 00:56:39:17
What does this say and why.

00:56:43:08 - 00:56:45:01
I mean, one would certainly be

00:56:45:01 - 00:56:45:22
if you can help.

00:56:45:22 - 00:56:47:21
Help and you can always help.

00:56:47:21 - 00:56:49:02
And there you go.

00:56:49:04 - 00:56:49:24
I mean, that

00:56:49:24 - 00:56:51:15
I think that's that's a good one.

00:56:51:15 - 00:56:53:07
I mean, look, on my Instagram

00:56:53:07 - 00:56:54:06
in the morning,

00:56:55:20 - 00:56:57:01
you know, I do often do what

00:56:57:01 - 00:56:58:11
I call the weather report.

00:56:58:11 - 00:56:59:22
And my Instagram

00:56:59:22 - 00:57:02:05
is it's JasonFlom Instagram and TikTok.

00:57:02:05 - 00:57:04:18
It's ItsJasonFlom

00:57:04:18 - 00:57:05:20
If you want to follow me, great.

00:57:05:20 - 00:57:07:04
But more importantly, subscribe

00:57:07:04 - 00:57:08:21
to the podcast Wrongful Conviction

00:57:08:21 - 00:57:10:04
on Apple or Spotify,

00:57:10:04 - 00:57:11:13
wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:57:11:13 - 00:57:12:15
But the only other one I'll leave

00:57:12:15 - 00:57:12:22
you with

00:57:12:22 - 00:57:14:07
is that I often say on my morning

00:57:14:07 - 00:57:15:07
weather forecast,

00:57:15:07 - 00:57:16:04
I'll say something like,

00:57:16:04 - 00:57:18:07
today's forecast is

00:57:19:04 - 00:57:21:03
no, today's a good day

00:57:21:03 - 00:57:22:14
to do something good for someone

00:57:22:14 - 00:57:24:08
while expecting nothing in return.

00:57:24:08 - 00:57:25:23
I think that's a motto

00:57:25:23 - 00:57:27:08
we can all live by.

00:57:27:08 - 00:57:28:16
Jason Flom

00:57:28:16 - 00:57:29:22
founder of Wrongful

00:57:29:22 - 00:57:32:00
Wrongfully Convicted Podcast

00:57:32:01 - 00:57:33:02
Wrongful Conviction.

00:57:33:02 - 00:57:34:13
Wrongful Conviction,

00:57:34:13 - 00:57:35:09
Wrongful Conviction

00:57:35:09 - 00:57:37:07
Podcast, False Confession

00:57:37:07 - 00:57:39:17
Podcast and Righteous Conviction Podcast.

00:57:39:17 - 00:57:41:02
Those three

00:57:41:02 - 00:57:42:15
and I'm sure they'll be another one.

00:57:42:15 - 00:57:43:22
Jason don't make yourself a stranger.

00:57:43:22 - 00:57:44:16
Appreciate you coming on.

HOSTED BY

ROB RICHARDSON

Share This!

Former Chairman and CEO at Atlantic Records, Virgin Records, and Capitol Music Group and now the Founder and CEO of Lava For Good Podcasts and Lava Media. He is the founding board member of the Innocence Project and serves on the boards of numerous criminal justice reform organizations. Also, the host of the hit podcast, Wrongful Conviction features interviews with men and women who have spent decades in prison for crimes they did not commit, some even sentenced to death. He started his journey to fight the system's injustice last 1993 when he helped a young kid win his case for a non-violence first offense cocaine possession charge for which he served 15 years to life. He also shared statistics that listeners will be shocked that the United States incarcerates black people at six times South African rate per capita during a partile. Jason Flom believes that we should use the resources to uplift people, police are not the answer, and imprisonment is not the answer. He lives by the saying, "If you can help, help, and you can always help!" He always reminds people that Today is a good day to do something good for someone while expecting nothing in return.


What you will learn

  • A lot of people who are convicted are without proper justice
  • Many people suffer because of injustices
  • You can help no matter what

CONNECT WITH THE HOST

ROB RICHARDSON

Entrepreneur & Keynote Speaker

Rob Richardson is the host of disruption Now Podcast and the owner of DN Media Agency, a full-service digital marketing and research company. He has appeared on MSNBC, America this Week, and is a weekly contributor to Roland Martin Unfiltered.

MORE WAYS TO WATCH

thin

Serious about change? Subscribe to our podcasts.