ROB
Welcome to Disruption Now. I'm your host and moderator, Rob Richardson.

TUNDE
I'm Tunde Ogunlana.

AMESHIA
And I’m Ameshia Cross.

ROB
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We are honored to have Shawn Holley on our show today. Shawn Holley learned the ropes from the late great Johnnie Cochran at the time when he was representing OJ during the trial of the century. She's carried his legacy forward. She continues to fight. As Johnnie Cochran says, she represents OJs. She represents no Js. She's represented Charlamagne tha God. She's represented Snoop Dogg, Justin Bieber.

But what you may have really noticed about her recently is that she was in a picture with Kim Kardashian and Donald Trump when they got a prisoner released… a former prisoner, Alice Johnson, who was convicted on a nonviolent felony for conspiracy to traffic drugs -- traffic crack cocaine. She got her off first time offense. Was in jail for the rest of her life and she got her off. And she works day in and day out to make sure that justice is provided in this country. We're honored to have her on our show -- Shawn Holley.

SHAWN
Hello. Hi.

ROB
How are you?

SHAWN
I’m fine. How are you?

ROB
I’m doing well. I want to thank you for coming on. I have two co-hosts with me -- Tunde Ogunlana and Ameshia Cross -- who also are on the show and are probably going to ask a few questions of you as well.

So again, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. We're honored to have you on the show. I know you have a lot going on and you have a lot of clients so let's just actually go right into it. We want to get a kind of sense of your early beginnings and how you got to this point. What did you want to be when you were growing up and what do you want to be now?

SHAWN
[Laughter] Well I think I wanted to be an actress and what I want to be now is an actress. Just joking.

ROB
[Laughter] Okay.

SHAWN
Yeah, I think I wanted to be an actress but I'm risk-averse. You know, there's a lot of luck involved in being an actress and I'm not down with that. I have to be able to control my destiny as much as possible.

And that profession, to me, any kind of entertainer, there's too much luck. You have to be discovered. I mean you could be really talented… I'm not saying I was. But you could be and still never make it or you could be kind of rubbish and make it. I can't have that kind of fate be a part of it. No. So I then decided instead I would control things a little more by going to law school, studying hard, taking the bar -- you know, things that you have some ability to dictate how things go.

ROB
My understanding and looking at some articles, that you didn't think law was that cool because your mother… I'm not sure she was a lawyer. Looks like she got her MBA but worked at a law firm. So you had up close and personal experience of what it was like to be a lawyer and it seemed like that didn't move you at all. So what made you change?

SHAWN
You’re so right. You’re so right. She was a legal secretary for many years and she worked at firms that were very, very boring, uptight, kind of Wall Street, white-shoe law firm. At that time, there really weren't even computers so people were just pouring over books and contracts and papers. And when I go visit her, there was just nothing about it that looked fun in the least.

I took five years to graduate from college with a degree in English which you don’t really know what to do with that degree, necessarily. And I took a year off. I mean I really didn't know what I wanted to do and just kind of picked law school by default just because it's kind of what I knew having been around my mom’s firm. Yeah, I mean I wasn't that excited about it. I didn't know what that career was going to look like. It was just like, “Well I guess I’ll go to law school.” But then it was riveting and amazing and so interesting.

And then I met a lawyer... I was waitressing after the summer of my first year which is really my favorite job. I guess that's what I wanted to do later -- is a waitress, I guess. It’s such a great job.

ROB
Okay. All right, we’re going to talk more about that. Okay.

SHAWN
Okay. So I was waitressing and a guy would come in every day for lunch with a friend and they were lawyers and they were young and they were cool and they were fun and they worked at an entertainment firm. And they were so different than the lawyers I was used to being around at my mom’s firm that I thought, “Wait a minute. I could be a lawyer like that.” And then it kind of seemed… I liked it better at that point. Like, “Oh I can be this kind of way and I’ll be good.”

ROB
So what do you want to be now though? You didn't really fully get to that. Ideally?

SHAWN
Well I’m it. I love my career. I don't aspire to be or do anything other than what I'm doing. I have a practice that I love. You know, Johnnie used to say, “We represent the OJs and the no Js.” I currently represent OJs and no Js. I have the ability to represent people who can't necessarily afford the firm where I am but I also have clients who can.

I can pick the cases that I do. I can reject cases I don't want to do. I feel like I'm helping people which is really important to me. I look at what I do as really like a service… of service. I feel really rewarded and fulfilled by being able to help people through, you know, probably the most frightening, difficult time of their life. I'm not trying to be anything other than this.

ROB
You said that you loved being a waitress which I can see the connection. You're helping people. You're serving people and you're doing it in a way. So it sounds like you've always wanted to do something where you felt as if you were having an impact. And you feel like you're doing that in your current role, it sounds like.
SHAWN
Let me just say this -- what is really different about being a waitress from doing what I do now is when you're a waitress, almost everybody that you're dealing with is happy. They're out. They're happy. You're making them happier by bringing them their delicious food and drink. It's a very happy environment. Unlike what I do now, even if I'm able to get the case dismissed or the outcome is good, still, my clients had to go through a difficult time. They had to often pay bail or legal fees. You know what I mean? So they may be happy with the outcome but the situation itself is certainly not a happy one.

ROB
I've actually had a friend go through an investigation with the FBI and this friend came out… Nothing happened to them but what they learned through the process is that they had a whole different view of how our criminal justice system works. I'm sure you've dealt with the FBI quite a bit. When they have their mind made up, it doesn't matter where you're at on the totem pole, who you are. If they want you to be involved in the case, they come after you and it's very scary. -- Go ahead.

SHAWN
It’s interesting that you say that because I don't do a lot of federal work for that very reason. If the federal government is coming after you -- be it the FBI or the DEA or the IRS or whomever it is -- they have all of their ducks in a row. The federal law is really stacked against the defendants and so it's really hard to achieve some measure of justice in the federal system. I don't like that. It worries me. I'm upset. I can't sleep. I can't eat. It's not a healthy place for me to be.

So I find that in state court, which is where I do most of my criminal work, there's a lot more discretion and flexibility and understanding. And you can have a conversation and I like that a lot better.

ROB
But as a defense attorney, sometimes you have to defend… As Johnnie Cochran said, you defend OJs and no Js. And oftentimes, you defend people that, from the appearance-wise, people assume are already guilty or they’re accused of something that's highly unpopular, just highly controversial or very heinous.

How do you block out the noise... because, you know, you're talking to someone… I'm a lawyer and I understand the process. But as much as people say they appreciate the process and appreciate the Constitution, a lot of people just want to assign “Guilt” before a trial has even happen. How do you block out the noise? And how do you explain it to people why this is a necessary function -- to have defense in this country?

SHAWN
In high-profile cases, there is a lot of noise and you don't want to block it out. You want to deal with it and change the noise to be something that's good for your client. I mean in high-profile cases, I find that you really have to deal with the media and do everything that you can to get the media as much on your side as possible.

And if you were simply to block out the noise in those cases then the media will really, just as you said, assign all sorts of nefarious intent and guilt to your client because that's the narrative that sells more, I guess. So you really have to entertain and then change the noise in high-profile cases.

In the no J cases, which is regular cases, I don't know what the noise is. I mean I'm just dealing with the case. And when people say, especially when I was a public defender… When you’re a public defender, you represents a ton of guilty people.

And the question at every cocktail party is, “How do you defend those people?” And I would liken it to being a surgeon or trauma nurse in the ER. You know, this body comes rolling in from an ambulance and something traumatic has happened that requires your immediate attention and you just get to work.

And when you see who it is, whoever the person is that you happen to dislike the most in the world, be it Donald Trump or whoever it is, you don't go, “Oh wait. It's Donald Trump therefore I'm not going to…” or whoever it is for you, you don't go, “Oh forget it. I don't want to do this.” I mean you're just a skilled tactician who has to do your job and you just see a spleen that needs hydration or whatever. -- I made that up.

And that's kind of the way I saw my work as the public defender which is you're looking at the issues, you're figuring out how to make sure that your client’s rights are being protected, that the government is not just going to railroad them, that only admissible evidence is going to be admitted, that you're going to be fighting to keep things out that should be kept out.

And the only way that any of us can have a fair trial or fair shake in the justice system is if everyone has that. I mean we can't have some situation, as you know, where somebody decides who gets a fair trial and who doesn't. I mean that can't work. So everybody gets you. Everyone does. [Crosstalk - 13:13] more.

ROB
Makes sense. -- Ameshia, if you can ask a few questions. -- She has a few questions to ask. -- Ameshia?

AMESHIA
Sure. Your background history in the work that you've done has been pretty stellar. I think that anyone, particularly young minority girls, would be very excited to know of what actually brought you down this path. But more so, what are some pieces of memorable advice that you feel like you could give to young girls who are interested in this path? We see entertainment law as being a very strong thing for them but are also intrigued by some of the defenses that you've held up for clients.

SHAWN
You know, it's so interesting, especially here in LA... You know, I speak at a lot at law schools and universities and people are always drawn to the idea of being an entertainment lawyer. And then when you ask them, “What do you think an entertainment lawyer is,” they don't really have an answer.

And I get it. I mean I remember in law school, at some point, I thought I wanted to be a sports agent. And I really had no idea what that was. It just sounded like it would be really fun and glamorous and I'd be going out to lunch with sports stars. And what we'd be talking about or what I'd be doing that required me to have a legal education and license to practice, I don't know. It just sounded glamorous.

But the reality is, and I say this when I'm speaking to these people, is if you're an entertainment lawyer, for the most part, you're doing transactional work which is to say you're working on a contract. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But the only difference here is that you're going to recognize some of the names in the contract or the studio or the network. But at the end of the day, it's still a contract.

So I consider myself, primarily… And I do things other than criminal law. I'm a defense attorney. I'm a criminal defense lawyer whose clients sometimes happen to be a celebrity. But at the end of my day, I'm a criminal defense attorney.

And so I think it's important for people… And I don't know if I'm answering your question about what I would say to young people or girls thinking about pursuing a career as an entertainment lawyer. Really, what's important is to think about what you want to do. If you want to sit in an office and draft a contract… Again, there's nothing wrong with that but that's what you're going to be doing as an entertainment lawyer in the transactional field.

If you want to be in court, standing up for someone, representing them, fighting the good fight on behalf of somebody who's been accused of something that they maybe didn't do then that's a criminal lawyer. And then maybe you're going to get to a place where you represent celebrities who are charged criminally. But it's important to figure out what it is that's of interest to you, that brings you joy, that you're passionate about and then going there, finding the place that allows you to do those things.

AMESHIA
And did you ever feel any type of anxiety early in your career, particularly, noting that you're dominating in a field that is largely male? What types of anxiety do you think that you felt or did you have any moments of doubt?

SHAWN
I'm sure. You know, I started out as a public defender and one of the things that is great about the public defender's office is you're really just kind of thrown out there immediately. You might be doing a trial within the first couple of months of you passing the bar -- so it's just out of the frying pan, into the fire or whatever it's called. Obviously, there's a lot of anxiety just in terms of being in front of a jury with someone’s liberty in your hand.

Now even though I've been doing this a long time, the reality is by the time that I graduated the law school class, and I think it's continued to be this way, there’s probably more women than men. The group of people that I entered the public defender's office with were a lot of women, maybe more than men. There's a lot of women judges. So I'm happy to say that that part of it, it has not been, in and of itself, anxiety-producing. At least here in LA, there's a lot of women doing this work and in very high prominent positions which is great.

ROB
I imagine -- this is Rob again -- it must have been pretty exciting working for Johnnie Cochran at that time. Take yourself back to that moment. What's the most valuable thing you learned from him and what's the most valuable piece of advice that you still take to this day?

SHAWN
Johnnie was the most amazing mentor one could have. I feel so lucky that I got to work with him for as long as I did. To this day, I constantly ask myself in situations, “What would Johnnie do?”

I started working with him when I had been practicing my fifth year of practice. I was a young lawyer. And I think at that early stage -- of course I speak for myself -- of my career -- I think this is true of many others -- I mean you have in mind how are lawyers supposed to be -- how you're supposed to dress, how you’re supposed to act, how you're supposed to treat your opposing counsel. And it's very staid and rigid and formal lipstick and legalistic and the whole thing. I mean you have in mind how lawyers are supposed to be. And I hadn't yet developed my own unique way so you're just kind of following this formula or pattern or model of what you think that is.

Johnnie shattered all that in the best ways. I mean he was so charming, so funny, so fun, none of which took away from his brilliance as a lawyer and his preparation and his ability to do incredible things in the courtroom and in meeting rooms. His personality was great. He was charming and charismatic and friendly and not mean to opposing counsel but nice.
So like it just shattered for me this idea that it's supposed to be this particular way and you're supposed to be this particular way. And it was like, “No, you can completely be yourself and in no way compromise your great work as a lawyer if you are nice to people.”

And when I started doing civil litigation, I mean I can't tell you how many of my opposing counsel would say to me, “You are the nicest opposing counsel we've ever talked to” because I just think people get into this mindset of, you know, “Because this is an adversarial system, I've got to be unpleasant to you.” And Johnnie was not like that at all and I’m not like that at all.

ROB
This is a good transition to really talk about the OJ trial because the OJ trial has had a lot of influence on your career, I would say.

SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
I remember where I was when the OJ verdict was announced. I mean it was that big of a deal during my time or during our time. I was in high school. I recall it very vividly. I had a very mixed class. My high school was about 50% black, 50% white. So I got a chance to see in real time how America reacted in real time. As you know, I'm sure, a lot of white America--

I can just speak for the people that were in my classroom and the teachers at that time. I mean they reacted as if a relative had been murdered -- I mean literally -- and just reacted as if this was the worst injustice ever in the history of America.

SHAWN
Yes.

ROB
Black folks had a very different reaction. It was vindication, I think. Some Black folks felt, particularly when they heard the stories of the LAPD, the officer being racist, it confirmed what the experience of many Black Americans, myself included, who have had interactions with law enforcement. Not saying all law enforcement is bad but you know there are some law enforcement that are racist in their application and in their targeting. So it confirmed, rightly or wrongly, people's beliefs and it was kind of confirmation bias.

Did you see that playing out that way? Did you know it was going to play out that way or did that surprise you the level that it played out to the fact that President Bill Clinton, at the time, actually had to weigh in to talk about the trial and talk about race relations as a reaction to the verdict?

SHAWN
Well during the trial, I think we were all aware of the fact that white people and Black people were viewing the thing through different lenses. And you are absolutely right when you say that people acted as if it was their own relative. I mean I say to this day… because all these years later, 25 years later or whatever it is, when people learn that I was a part of that case, white people can still get really upset and want to argue with you about it.

And I say to them -- and this is something that was clear to us at the time -- Robert Blake was accused of killing his wife. He was acquitted. There was no one that I've ever talked to who doesn't believe that he did it. Whether he did it or not, I don't know but people certainly believe that he did. And people, therefore, believed that it was an injustice that he was acquitted. And no one is mad about that -- no one. I don't know anybody who has any kind of emotional reaction to that injustice.

So when you bring that up to white people, they have to acknowledge that what I've just said is so. I mean even just kind of going through the case, things like that would come up, where people would just be so upset just about it in a way that they have not been upset about anything else.

Also, there was just a little kind of anecdotes where we felt like, if this had not been Nicole and if it had been Marguerite, his first wife who is black, we don't think it would have been on TV. We don’t think he… I mean there would have been bail. He would have bailed out. It wouldn't be on TV. It wouldn't be the trial of the century.

So we were definitely aware as it was going on, that it was being treated by everyone in a way that we could tell, had the circumstances or the races of the people had been different. It would not have been the same, for sure.

Now did we think that it was going to be these two completely divergent responses to the verdict? I don't think that we thought about that and that it would be a stark and as a contrast as it was. But it definitely wasn't surprising.

ROB
Tunde?

TUNDE
Hey, Shawn. Thanks so much for joining us. I have my questions from what you said before. But basically, your comments on OJ almost made me go on a whole different tangent because we just… Rob, I think we just did a show on privilege, right…

ROB
Correct.
TUNDE
…like a week or two ago. You bring up a lot of comments that I think we kind of echoed as well on that prior show. What I wanted to do, honestly, Shawn, is just commend you from the way you opened up. I read your bio and you've got a stellar bio CV and career.

SHAWN
Thank you.

TUNDE
And for you to open up and acknowledge that it took you five years to complete an undergrad in English and you took a year off and you were a waitress, I think was… It was very refreshing for me to hear, honestly, because a lot of us have, what I would call, a “zigzag line” to our success.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I think even the college scandal thing that just broke out in the last few months was another example of this idea, that people want to be so perfect and this fake idea of just, “You’re going to go to high school, get a 4.0 then go to Ivy League and then you're going to go be either a robotics engineer or the big lawyer or the big partner in this law firm.” And it's really refreshing to hear that very successful attorney at the top of her game and then top of her peers just had the regular kind of zigzag start. But it was your ambition. And I also think that--

And it’s funny. Rob mentioned the book “Laws of Human Nature” because we're reading that kind of together, all of us, because what it talks about a lot is your childhood… sorry, not “your” but the childhood of all of us and how it affects the outcome of us as adults.

And I feel like your journey did start, even though you had the experience with your mom that you shared of kind of reading the boring books and kind of the old white-shoe law firm that was boring, it's almost like that experience though was necessary because I'm sure a lot of other waitresses served young kind of fun lawyers. But what happened, that foundation that your mom gave you kind of brought you back and you said, “Okay, now I can go back to that but in my way and the fun way.”

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
So I just want to commend you for kind of opening up all that because it's great, man. Like Ameshia said, there's a lot of… not just young women but young men, too, that just are anxious... I own my own wealth management firm and it's not easy, as you know, being out there kind of slaying dragons. So I just want to commend you for being so candid about your past.

SHAWN
No, thank you. You know, it's interesting. I mean I work at a firm with… Everyone there went to top tier law schools -- you know, Harvard, a number of them -- and I didn't and I'm the one who is, every year, that woman lawyer in the state or that certain table… whatever it is. And I don't say that to like brag on myself. I'm just saying that, to your point, that it doesn't have to be that way.

I mean I remember when I was studying for the bar -- you take a bar review course -- and I met a young woman in the bar review course and she had done everything right. She'd gone to all the right schools. Every summer, she had clerks that was a judge or done something that was the perfect thing and I had done none of that.

And I said, “God. Look at you. You did all these things and I've done none of those things.” And she said, “We're in the exact same place right now.” -- She was studying for the bar -- “And you had fun and did all of this great stuff and I did not.” And she was right. I mean it struck me. Obviously, you've got to do what you've got to do. But you are right. There are different paths to get there. I feel like the passion--

I don't know if this is a question that you guys have in mind or maybe you asked it before and I just didn't answer it. But the way I ended up getting to where I am is that in law school, my criminal law professor said, “You need to do a clerkship in the public defender's office.”

You know, we were interviewing for summer associate jobs for summer after second year of law school and I was interviewing traditional kind of civil litigation firms and she had been a public defender. And she said, “You really need to interview the public defenders’ office.” And because I trusted her and because it turns out she knew me better than I myself, I listened to her and I took this job.

It was the late ‘80s and there was this huge crack which, at that time, was really even called like “rock cocaine” more. You know, it was epidemic. It was a huge deal. So I am working as a law clerk from the public defender's office and I have to talk to the people who have been charged with, in this case, lots of possession of rock cocaine. I mean that's what almost everybody was charged with.

And I go back in the holding cell which was filled with black and brown men. I mean I can't believe that there's just like… That's all. These are all the people who've been arrested in the preceding. 73 are black and brown men. 90% of them are charged with possession of rock cocaine. And my job is to talk to them and find out from their story. And each of them says, individually as I talk to them, “I am guilty. I possess rock cocaine. I want to plead guilty.” “Okay, tell me what happened.” They say, “I’m walking down the street, the police pulled up, told me to put my hands against the car. They searched me and they found rock cocaine. See, I'm guilty.” And I'm like, “Wait, hold on. They can't do that. That’s a violation of the Fourth Amendment.”

Now they don't know that. They don't think they're telling me something that is helpful for their case. They're just telling me what happened. As far as they're concerned, that proves they’re guilty.

I did read the police report. The police report says in every single one of these cases, “We were driving down the street. We saw the defendant. The defendant looked in our direction, looked scared, reached his pocket and threw rock cocaine on the sidewalk in front of us,” which is absurd. And what the police have to say… because they can't say the truth of what they really did. And I am on fire. Like I cannot believe that this is happening, that there is a holding cell…

ROB
In America.

SHAWN
…packed with black and brown men whose rights have been violated by the police. Is it just a systemic way that these guys don't even know that their rights have been violated? As far as they're concerned, they're guilty and they're going to plead guilty, and I can't believe it. And I'm like, “I have to become a public defender. This cannot be.”

ROB
Wow.

SHAWN
And it was that sense of passion and pursuit of justice in like, “I have to… I can’t…” Like whatever dream I had of being a sports agent, whatever I thought that was, it then kind of paled in terms of importance to me as this which had to do with concepts of like liberty and justice for all. Like, “No, no, no. This is what I'm doing.”

And then I was a public defender. Then I was a senior law clerk in the public defender's office and then I checked and passed the bar and I was a public defender. And it was the passion of trying to do something there with these horrible injustices war is what kind of propelled me along.

TUNDE
That’s awesome. I have another question from what you just said. It made me want to ask you because… I sent Rob and the team here on our group message thing from my phone, an article yesterday that was bothersome for me because it involves ,what you just said, law enforcement who… And I definitely don't want to paint all law enforcement in a negative light. This was about that Sandra Bland case.

SHAWN
Yes.

TUNDE
And I guess it came out, the video that she had taken from her own cell phone, that it was withheld, I guess, by--

ROB
[Crosstalk - 33:32].

TUNDE
It shows a cop basically yelling at her and she's just saying, “What's up? Why?” He's forcing her to get out the car. For any reason, I don't see why he just didn't write her a citation and leave. And it seems like he's escalating it because he's just upset that he's… He wants to be in control and he wants to tell her to get out the car and she doesn’t want to get out of the car -- typical kind of just alpha-male BS.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
And then they're saying in the article that he wrote that he was scared for his life and this whole thing.

SHAWN
Right.

TUNDE
And I started thinking about the guy that got shot in South Carolina, when the guy said, “I'm scared for my life.” And then we see on the video, not only does he shoot the guy in the back but he throws the Taser down next to the dead body on camera to try and… It was part of his police report that, “He took my Taser and I was scared for my life.”

SHAWN
Yeah. Right.

TUNDE
So my question is, we see these officers lying on their report and then on camera, it’s something else. Are they ever reprimanded for that because maybe they get off on the [crosstalk - 34:35] murder and all that but--

SHAWN
[I have enough to say that - 34:35].

TUNDE
Like, how does that work?

SHAWN
And I come from a family of law enforcement so I agree with you that not all law enforcement is bad. I found now in 30 years of practicing the kind of law I deal with law enforcement officers a lot, you can go into that job for the wrong reasons which is exactly what you said -- to exert control and authority over people. And that's not a good reason to go into a job or at least the model here with an LAPD is to protect and to serve. Like you're not protecting and serving. You're doing really a disservice.

What it show, a sense of about it all, is how they circle the wagons and rally behind each other and nobody wants to be the one to rat on the other one. They just have each other's backs in this horrible, unjust system that it's just… It's just wrong.

And in addition to the “I want to control and exert authority” and all of that, they also have a feeling of, “The end justifies the means and so we're going to do whatever it takes to find whatever it is” -- some illegal contraband, whatever it is. And they don't care about the Constitution or what they're not allowed to do.

As a young public defender, now I'm in a position to be able to challenge what I told you about… you know, what the cops are lying about, walking on the street and throwing in the sidewalk. That's emotion that you have in front of a judge where the police officer takes the stand and takes an oath to tell the truth and then tells that ridiculous story.

And then you make this motion because the judge said, “Ridiculous. Obviously, that did not happen. Surely, you are going to suppress this evidence because this person just told us all a lie and we clearly don't believe that.” And the judge would say, “Your motion to dismiss” or to suppress the evidence. You can respectfully deny.

I mean you have to, at some point, calm down and learn to deal with this which isn’t… I mean it's good for your health so you don't have an ulcer. But at the same time, it’s bad because you have to, at a certain level, come to expect this and know this is going to happen and know that you're not going to win, and it’s awful.
TUNDE
What worries me, Shawn, is that… But definitely, I don't want to go into a full-on political thing here.

SHAWN
Next time. Next time. Go ahead.

TUNDE
It’s like all coming back down to the top of our country… Like in the open, I know that always there's been shenanigans behind-the-scenes in the white houses in the past and the government.

I was telling Rob earlier that I'm on about page 50 of the Mulla Report. I read a few pages every other day or so and just kind of… I’m only page 50, so let's say… What am I? 12 % through the whole thing? I’m only on page 50. I don't see anything that is telling me that there was nothing there and all the stuff that you keep hearing. I don't know. Maybe it’s just I got a different kind of integrity and ethics.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I just don't understand how people lie.

SHAWN
No. But it’s the same thing. Yeah, we just--

ROB
But I think different standards are applied to different people. And when you think about people, when they say they believe in this Constitution, you say, “Do you believe in it only for certain people at certain times? Does it only apply to white-collar criminals?”

But when you talk about the Fourth Amendment and you have a regular person on the street, it doesn't apply to him because I think the reasoning is, well, they had something on them. So they were guilty already. That's not how it works because if you remove rights then all of our rights get removed and then you can step over the line which we see happening over and over again.

I want to get to a question about this and then I want to move to talk about the criminal justice system as a whole and some of the work you've done with Kim Kardashian. When you think about officers in the defense, that always comes up.

And we said it again, there are mostly good officers that are out there. The problem is the bad ones are not held accountable. They can always go back to the defense that, “I feared for my life. I fear for my safety” despite overwhelming evidence that that wasn't true. It seems like they only need to say that they believed it at the time. And even if their belief was unreasonable, it's an acceptable defense. That's what it seems like to me.

SHAWN
No, that’s exactly right.

ROB
What do we need to do to change the standard? How could we get people to make them understand this is not in the best interest of America? Obviously, it's not the best interest of law enforcement because I think law enforcement is going to be less safe if people don't think they can trust law enforcement. What can we do to help change the standard, change the narrative? As your world, what do you think we can do about that?

SHAWN
I don't know what can be done. When I went to Johnnie's office at that time, all he did… There was no criminal defense, notwithstanding the fact that we took the OJ case. It was all civil rights policemen conduct. So this is exactly what we were dealing with except there weren't cell phone cameras yet to disprove what has been written in the police report or what the police officer was going to testify to -- not, by the way, that having video footage of the thing has changed. It hasn’t.

ROB
Clearly, it hasn’t.

SHAWN
As we see, there's video footage which disproves the whole thing and still the results and the outcome is the same. I'm not sure that it changes so long as the victim continued to be people of color.

I'm sure you guys follow Shaun King on Twitter or Instagram. I mean he's constantly showing how the police are easily, every time, able to apprehend these white guys who have shot at a whole bunch of people, who shot at cops, who killed a bunch of people and they always managed to apprehend those people without any kind of violence.

I mean I'm certainly not wishing that this horrible fate that meets Black people encountered by the police that that now happen to white people, too. I'm not saying that. But that seems to be the thing that changes it when they become victims of whatever the injustice is. That seems to cause the shift. But so long as it's not then things are--

You know, it’s like with Philando Castile. The NRA is constantly saying, what stops the bad guy was they got a good guy with a gun. Was Philando Castile, the good guy with the gun?

ROB
Just to make sure that people know what happened, Philando Castile was pulled over by an officer and he told the officer that, “I have a firearm. I'm licensed to do it. It's in there.” And when he told the officer that, essentially the officer killed him.
SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
He was doing everything he was supposed to do.

SHAWN
And you would think and hope and expect that the NRA would come out against the officers and in defense of a person who is doing what they say they want people to do which is have a registered firearm that they're licensed to carry. But they don't mean us. When they say that, they don't mean us. They mean other white people. I mean I just don't see anything changing -- that part of it changing. I don't see that part changing so here we are.

TUNDE
I agree with you. I was going to say, I think this kind of last call -- it may be 10 years -- I would say from Sarah Palin with, “We need to take our country back,” which, I think, is pretty evident what that means to today's… You know, find people on both sides. Or the Steve King, the congressman, “I am a proud white nationalist.” I mean Trump said, “Nationalist” but the other guy didn't even hide it. He’s just, “I'm a white nationalist.”

SHAWN
Right. Right.

TUNDE
I think what my lesson is… because I was naïve for I was always thinking that the country had really kind of moved past certain things, is that the psychological strength of tribalism which has manifested itself in our modern world as race and kind of racism is so much more powerful than anything rational.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
And even going back at the national level, it goes back to your point, right? I've thought about the same thing. Like, “Why should I be surprised that half this country and half the United States Congress just wants to look the other way on the Mulla Report when there's facts in there that… And forget about Trump. I mean just the fact that Russia is actively attacking our country right now.

SHAWN
Yeah, right.

TUNDE
And that, to me, is [inaudible - 00:43:41] because Trump will be out of office at some point -- you know, next year or in five years or whatever happens -- but Russians are going to be Russians for the next thousand years, so we got to deal with that.

And I feel like it's a saying. I was thinking about that like, wow, we even have on camera Black people that are unarmed being killed by police officers and somehow that becomes a constant national debate. Like, “Oh is it wrong or not?”

SHAWN
Right.

TUNDE
And what happens when someone buys George Zimmerman's gun for a quarter million dollars at an auction and… You know, all this stuff. That’s why I'm kind of sad for our country.

ROB
They make the victim, Tunde. They make the victim. The one that's guilty, they figured out a way to play Trayvon Martin on trial.

TUNDE
Exactly. That’s my point. That’s why I kind of permeated up to now what's going on at the national level -- the administration. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with strong evidence, people that are already kind of just want to believe something will just ignore any evidence to the contrary.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I mean we can even go to climate change and another thing but… You know, it's just amazing--

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
Yeah, I didn't want to believe all that years ago and it's just the evidence keeps showing me that I'm wrong in my naivete.

ROB
Right.

SHAWN
Yeah, I’m like you.

ROB
So let's switch topics a little bit. I want to talk about the criminal justice system and your involvement with Kim Kardashian, in particular, and really talked a little bit about Alice Johnson because it's kind of relates to the conversation we're having now.

SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
A lot people don't know your ties to Kim actually goes back to the OJ Simpson trial as well because her father was on the Dream Team with you. Is that correct? I think he was, yeah.

SHAWN
Yeah. Her dad was on the defense team. He and I were close friends. I came to know his kids very well when they were kids. We did social things together and we remained close and so I have continued to do work for them.

Kim has always -- always -- been interested in criminal investigation or just that whole kind of side of things. And so when she texted me… I guess it was October 2017… I guess so, yeah. She texted me a link to a story about Alice Marie Johnson and she said… And the link, the story, was really well-produced, her video, and she said, “Let's try to get this woman out of prison.”

Now Alice Marie Johnson was somebody who had no record, who was a wife and mother of four kids, I think. She worked at… I think it was FedEx in middle management -- you know, just a regular middle-class American. And she lost her job. Her husband left. One of her kids died in a scooter accident. I think it was her 12-year old child. And things really started to go downhill for her. It looked like her house was going to be foreclosed upon and things were getting really bad.

And someone came to her and said, “Listen, you can, for $1000, a pop… All you have to do is going to be… It’s a drug conspiracy but you're never going to see the drugs. You’re not going to see the drugs. All you're going to do is do a telephone deal which is to say you get a call. I'm going to call you a certain time. They’re going to say something cryptic and then you're going to relay that cryptic message in another call at the other side. It's not going to be about drugs. It not going to sound like it's about drugs. That's everything you do. You get $1000.”

It was wrong. She acknowledges it was wrong but it's not like it was the crime of the century or anything. So the drug conspiracy got busted. The people who were far more culpable than she worked out deals and she went to trial and she lost.

And going back to the beginning of our conversation when I said I don't like doing federal, the federal sentencing guidelines called for her to get life without the possibility of parole on a first-time nonviolent drug offense.

So she's in prison. She's been in prison for 22 years. She's been a model prisoner. She has taken every class. She works in the hospice. She does prison playwright. Everybody has good things to say about her including the warden. And she wants, as she should, to get out having served 22 years.

ROB
Right.

SHAWN
So Kim sees the story. Kim says, “Let's try to get her out.” “I think that that seems impossible but I'm going to try.”

ROB
And you’re telling it’s impossible because, just so you know… because you did say, I think, that Obama rejected this application, correct?

SHAWN
Yes. Obama rejected. Everybody thought that Obama would, for sure, grant her clemency. She was kind of at the top of the list of the most deserving people. And what happened was his team -- the Clemency team -- spoke with the US attorney who had prosecuted her and said, “What do you think? Should her sentence be commuted?” And he said, “She hasn't changed at all.”

Now he knew nothing about whether she changed or not. That's just what he said. And when her family learns that he said this, they camped out at his office and showed him all of the amazing things that she had done and he was like, “Oh my god. I didn't know.” And by the time he tried to reverse and let them know, Obama was out of office. So now Trump is in office. It certainly doesn't seem like something that he would do. That’s kind of, you know--

ROB
I wouldn’t have thought so.

SHAWN
Yeah. So it's about convincing Trump that her sentence should be commuted. Kim knew Ivanka and contacted her. Ivanka put Kim in touch with Jared who… You know, this is an issue for him. And I then started looking into the legal side of it, figuring out what lawyers we needed to have on our team who knew how to do this and what we were going to need to get this done.

Both had our roles. And Jared would call Kim and say, “I need this and this and this and this” and then I called the lawyers and say, “We need to get this and this and this.” And then I get it. I put it together. I get it to her and she get it to Jared. And ultimately, that culminated in our being in the Oval Office in May. I don't know that when we set out to do this, that we knew that this was going to mean like a face-to-face meeting with Trump in the Oval Office at some point.

ROB
He want to meet Kim Kardashian. [Laughter] That’s my guess.

SHAWN
No doubt. No doubt. So that's where we were and that's what happened. It was really… I mean “surreal” doesn't even begin to sum it up. I mean being there, sitting across from Kim, it was… Yeah, it was crazy.

ROB
I'm sure. And you were quoted as saying, “There are thousands of Alice's who are stuck in the same situations who don't deserve to be there.” Thinking about that quote that you just said and the work that Kim wants to do--

What I read today is that she's going to start, I guess, a reality show based upon this. I'm assuming you're going to have some involvement in that. What do you think that can do to help, I guess, empathize those who are going through the situations that Alice Johnson is going through since you said there are thousands of them. There might be tens of thousands of those. What do you think is the aim of this reality show and what can all of us do to make sure that we're doing everything we can to improve the fate of people like Alice Johnson?

SHAWN
Well, you know, this whole thing, “Alice,” let's you to first step back which was a bill supported by both parties and allows for the reconsideration of these cases where people have been sentenced according to all federal sentencing guidelines and who have spent outrageously long and unjust sentences -- incredibly long period of time.

Brittany Barnett, who is one of the lawyers that we hired who is amazing and who has a nonprofit where… This is all she does is help free people serving unjust sentences and Kim and she are working together to continue that work.

And I know that part of the reason Kim wants to be a lawyer is so that she can do a lot of this work herself. I mean it's really amazing. It's amazing that this has happened, that there has been a shift in the way these cases are viewed. It's amazing that it's happened in the Trump administration. It is. I get letters, emails, dozens, every single day from Alice's. There's not enough time in the day or lawyers available to do it all but I’m so happy that--

ROB
Let us know about some of that. -- Sorry to interrupt you.

SHAWN
Okay.

ROB
But let us know about it because what we'll do is advertise the different cases out there just so we can, at least, tell their stories in a different way. And we'd love to figure out in any way we can help advertise what's going on with the reality show as well because look, if people can be entertained and we can actually educate and make a difference then I don't care how it looks because I do think… And I'd to get your comment on this then I want to wrap up with some final questions… some more personal questions.

You know, I do think some Black women have given Kim Kardashian a hard time. I know they have and I'm sure you've seen it.

SHAWN
Yeah. Well women, in general.

ROB
Yeah, women in general. That’s true. I think Black women are harder because they feel cultural appropriation and things like that, you know.

SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
But it's neither here nor there. I'm sure women, in general, do give Kim Kardashian a hard time. Do you think she's misunderstood? And what is it that you would want people to know about her that doesn't accurately reflect what you see in the media every day?

SHAWN
Well there is no person who has ever been in Kim's presence who would not come away and say that she is a very nice, genuine, sweet person. I mean she's so nice. She's so sweet. She's so friendly. She's so considerate. I don't know that there's anything that she does on magazines or on TV that belies that other than that she's beautiful and rich and is living a very lavish, luxurious lifestyle. And so maybe we just, on our own, decide that that means she must be snotty or arrogant or something. But she's none of those things. She’s absolutely none of those things. She’s a very nice person.

And you know what? She has all the money in the world. She doesn't have to be studying to take the bar. She didn't have to be doing any of that. She doesn't have to be spending her time or her money trying to help people who are primarily black and brown people get out of pri--

She doesn’t have to be doing any of that. She could just be sitting on a stack of money on an island that she owns and she's chosen to do the work, to do good. You know, it's hard to find fault with that.

ROB
I agree. We’re going to have her on the show. I’m going to put it out there. Just some final things here. I want to kind of change direction a little bit. Can you think about a time you failed in your career or in personal life? It doesn't matter what you learned from that and how maybe that sets you up for greater opportunity, greater success?

SHAWN
Hah, well… I mean I don't want to suggest that I haven't failed. I think that I haven't really looked at things that people might consider “Failures” to be failures. I mean I think I have a very kind of sunny and optimistic view of things. I think I feel like everything happens for a reason. I feel like there are no mistakes, only lessons. So I don't think I view past events as failures, necessarily.

ROB
So what’s the lessons?

SHAWN
I look at them as learning experiences. Honestly, I really do. So for that reason, I can't think of something that with some… you know, the horrible things that happen. You know what I mean?

ROB
Well give us your biggest learning lesson. How about your biggest learning lesson, something that... Let’s just change the nature of the question. Your biggest learning lesson.

SHAWN
Well, you know what? There was… Okay. So there was a time when a book was going to be written about the OJ trial by a person who was seemingly friendly to the defense team and who we made sure was always in the courtroom during the trial so that he could chronicle the case and the proceedings and this was all going to be a positive thing for OJ.

When the trial is over, we all were supposed to sit down with him and talk about our experience and how we perceived certain things. And he somehow -- I don't really know how -- knew a lot of things that were really privileged and confidential things. So he would ask you, “When this confidential thing happened, how did you feel?” And it was really tricky because to answer the question would be to confirm that the thing had happened which was a privileged thing so I didn't know what to do.

I went to Johnnie. Johnnie said, “Don't worry about it. We can be open and honest with him. He’s our friend. And we have a lawyer who's going to be able to vet out the things that should not be included because they are privileged and confidential.”

Anyway, to make a long story short, the guy turned out to really not be a friend. He didn't let the book get vetted and all of these things came out that never should have. Johnnie was very upset about it and he was upset with me. I mean I'm just talking about my feelings. There were a number of people. I'm just speaking from my own experience. He was upset with me. And it was very hard for me because Johnnie had never been mad at me. And my other [indiscernible - 58:38] and it was just uncomfortable.

But what I realized… And this is a lesson that I learned that is so important to me that I impart to my daughter, to my clients. And what I said to Johnnie was, “Listen, all we can control is our own conduct and our own decisions. We can't control what anybody else does or says or how they react. The decision I made at that time was to come to you and to ask you what I should do and you made the best decision you could make in that moment which was presuming that this person was good and was going to follow through on what he said he was going to do.

So the decisions we made and our conduct was righteous. And we have no control over what someone else did. And it's horrible that they did that but we can't be held responsible for that because the decisions we made were the right ones. And so I'm sorry that things turned out this way. As much for you and for me and for OJ as it did but we can only control our own conduct, our own decisions.”

That really serves me well because it causes me to focus on making the right decisions and doing the right thing. And sometimes, things don't turn out but it wasn't your fault. You did the best you could do in the moment. And as long as you're doing that then you can flip it back.

ROB
Right. Two more questions then we'll wrap up. You have a committee of three, living or dead. Who would you choose? This is your committee of advisors to advise you on life or whatever -- committee of three. They can be alive, they can be dead or combination thereof. Who would you choose and why?

SHAWN
Johnnie Cochran. That’s not fair. [Laughter] Kendrick Lamar.

ROB
Kendrick Lamar, okay.

SHAWN
Kendrick Lamar because I love Kendrick and that means that I get to like have a relationship with Kendrick while we talk about that. And Malcolm X.

ROB
Malcolm X, okay. So let's kind of hear that out. So Kendrick Lamar. Why Kendrick? Why is he's so fascinating of all the people you know by now?

SHAWN
I love Kendrick. I love Kendrick. I think that he is brilliant. I think that he has tremendous insight. I think the way he thinks is amazing and on another level. He creates all of it. I just really admire him and think that he would have a lot to contribute and probably see things from a different perspective fairly than the other two.

ROB
Yeah. Let’s talk about Malcolm X. Johnnie is clearly why you would do, I think, that one.

SHAWN
Johnnie [indiscernible - 01:01:21].

ROB
Yeah. What about Malcolm X?

SHAWN
Yeah, I just feel Malcolm X right now… Like this is crazy. I mean I agree with you, guys, that I think we were tricked into believing that somehow things were different now or they were getting better or progress was being made. And in reality, it’s same as it ever was.

Nothing has changed and the curtain has been pulled back. And Malcolm said that back then and he would say it now and I would like to hear from him as we are dealing with the things that we're dealing with in 2019.

ROB
Final question: You have a billboard that summarizes your motto or your belief. What does it say and why?

SHAWN
Well it’s super boring but it's true and that is simply, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It's so cliché and so boring but it's what it is. I mean I really try to treat people the way I want to be treated. I just feel like if you are out there doing your best, living your best life, treating people well, that that is what is most important. I'm sorry but it’s true.

ROB
No. No, that’s really good. Listen, Shawn, we appreciate having you on the show. Thank you for all you do to make our democracy better. As we always say on the show, “Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.” Stay awoke if you want to stay free.” Shawn, please come on again. I hope to meet you sometime very soon in-person. I’m Rob Richardson.

TUNDE
I’m Tunde Ogunlana.

AMESHIA
And I’m Ameshia Cross.

ROB
Shawn, thank you for coming on.

SHAWN
Awesome. Thank you, guys, so much.

ROB
We'll see you all next time.

SHAWN
Okay.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]