ROB RICHARDSON
Hey, what’s up, everybody? Rob Richardson here. I want to thank you for being a subscriber. I want to thank you for being a listener. But if you haven’t subscribed, please “Like.” Please subscribe. Subscribe to our podcast and go to our website, disruptionnow.com.

We’re just bless to see our 100th episode. Just think about that for a minute. Most people don’t get that far. We’re humbled the fact that we’ve been able to make hundred episodes and we’re humbled that you listen to us.

I hope you get a chance here to enjoy some of our best highlights, some of best content. I’m sure you will enjoy yourself. And if you liked it, go back and listen if you haven’t. I guarantee, you will gain additional insight, additional knowledge that will disrupt how you think about things. We are thankful and we’ll see you in 2021.

ROBERT GREENE – JULY 3, 2019

This thing about envy and about a lot of these other qualities is that we don’t want to admit to ourselves that we have this emotion. And envy is the number one thing like that. Nobody goes around saying, “I’m an envious type of person” because it’s an ugly emotion. It says that “I feel inferior to someone else.” And we, humans, don’t like to feel inferior to someone else and to admit that we feel inferior and to admit that it bothers us.

So we tell ourselves a story. The story that we tell ourselves is that person that we envy is actually a mean, evil person that doesn't deserve their success therefore I’m justified to do something ugly against them. That's the story an envier tells themselves.

You talked about Rockefeller. People who are extremely aggressive don't necessarily go around saying, “I’m an aggressive person. I love pushing people around” -- although there are some like that.

ROB
Yeah, there are.

ROBERT
I’m not naming names of presidents or anything like that.

ROB
[Laughter]

ROBERT
What Rockefeller had was what I call the “Aggressor's narrative.” He tells the story to himself that he's doing this for the good of mankind, that he's creating this monopoly, that he's going to bring the cheapest price of oil to the American public, that it's all justified. “The businesses is chaotic. I'm going to bring order therefore anything I do is justified.”

The “Social justice warrior.” I talked in the book about the shadow side of the human personality and how we're all kind of disguising these sort of darker impulses. Well a great disguise for getting out of your shadow is the social justice warrior. You believe so strongly in this cause that it justifies being mean and nasty and manipulative to people on the internet, on social media or whatever “because it's all for this great cause that I’m supporting,” right?

People don't tell themselves that they're being taught. They don't tell themselves they're being envious or aggressive or manipulative. They have another story.

And the thing that I’ve always said since the beginning of my books -- since the 48 Laws -- that the best liars, the best con artists, the best deceivers are the ones who actually sincerely believe what they're selling. If they believe it, it's hard for us not to think that it's true. So there's an element of kind of convincing yourself of these stories that I’m just telling you.

ROB
Think about a personal story or two about what inspired you to write the Laws of Human Nature and the 48 Laws of Power. I’ve heard you say in other interviews that you write out of anger, sometimes. So that tells me something in Hollywood must have happened at some point in your life to the extent you're comfortable sharing--

JAMES
We’ve read your book. We’ve read your book. We know what that means.

ROB
[Laughter] I know that every story comes from some personal motivation and personal experience -- I am sure. So what motivated you, in general, to write the book? And if you can think about any personal experiences that just… If there's one or two that just sparked it like, “My god, people need to know about this and I need to make sure people understand this lesson.”

ROBERT
Well I've gone into working in Hollywood after having many different jobs because I love youthful idealism. This was going to be a great place for me to express myself. I could be creative. I could be a screenwriter. I come from Los Angeles, etc. And slowly, I realized that it's not what my ideals were. It was an extremely Machiavellian environment, a very power-laden environment where people… didn't as much pretend but they acted as if all that mattered was creating a great movie but in truth, it was really about their ego and about having power. And nobody was writing about this.

I worked for a film director. He was not a bad person. He was a typical Hollywood director and I saw him do some maneuvers that were actually quite nasty, looking back. He started out as a writer and he wanted to direct his first film but the producer didn't think he was experienced enough to direct this film. So the man I was working for, he came up with this very clever strategy. He pretended to agree with the producer. He said, “All right, together, we'll find the right director.”

And he purposefully found someone who he knew could not pull it off. He looked on paper to be someone that shouldn’t be the director. He knew his character, he knew who he was and he knew that it wasn't a slam-dunk, that 75% sure this guy would fail because he didn't have the character to take the pressure on. And also, the guy I knew was going to be applying some pressure.

So he deliberately hired somebody he knew would fail and would fail probably early on. And it happened. It happened in pre-production before the film ever got off in the casting. And so this guy producer had to come in and fire him. And then this guy, the last minute, that I worked for had to come in and rescue to become the director, which has been his goal all along. He played it brilliantly. And I had to admire and clap how well he played it.

But in the process, he kind of destroyed this other man’s reputation who… I’m not positive about it because I haven't done the research but I don't think he ever totally recovered. I don't think he directed another film.

And then personally, for this one director, I would write a lot of his dialogue. He was a very intuitive man. He wrote everything on these yellow legal pads. And then suddenly, he’d get blocked and I would start stream-of-consciousness. I would take over and I would write whole blocks of dialogue. Pages and pages were my writing. I never got credit. I never got paid. Nobody ever knew about this.

And that's the Law #7 in the 48 Laws of Power -- “Always let other people do the work but always take the credit.” That had been laid on me. You know, it's a typical thing in Hollywood or in media where people, the researchers, the joke writers… You know, Bill Maher doesn't write his own jokes. He has a team of people writing his jokes. We never see that.

I went in so idealistically, so wanting it to be this creative environment, and instead, I saw all these kind of power games being played and nobody talking about it and it pissed me off. It pissed me off that there was this rampant hypocrisy, that people think of all of these liberal-minded Hollywood directors and producers, they're always in best causes. And I saw behind closed doors how mean-spirited, how they can be true assholes when the door is closed, how poorly they often treated their employees and I wanted to expose the kind of power environment that I witnessed. And it isn't just Hollywood. It's the music industry. It's politics.

ROB
It’s politics.

ROBERT
It's academia. It's the medical world. It's every world. But Hollywood was kind of like a microcosm for me.

ROB
The Shackleton story. That's it.

ROBERT
Well basically, it’s a great story in literature of leadership in universities, etc. It's like one of the most important stories. He's considered the icon of great leadership is Shackleton.

Basically, he was an English explorer who had explored the South Pole in Antarctica. He decided to lead an expedition of the first group of men who would cross the entire continent on foot. He set out with 27 men on a boat called the “Endurance” in 1914. Everything was planned really well.

Then at one point, the ship became trapped in an ice floe and it couldn't move. Because it was stationary, it started taking on water. And slowly, the ship was sinking and so he had all the sailors abandon the ship -- all 27. He took the little lifeboats that were on it under this ice floe. But basically, now the ship sunk. He had to forget the expedition.

And he was facing almost certain death because here they were, trapped on this sort of floating ice floe which was large but was getting smaller and smaller. And they were about to head into winter which there was no daylight. Conditions would be horrible. They had no radios to signal for help and were running out of supplies. Where were they going to get food?

But more importantly, as somebody who'd led expeditions, he knew that the greatest danger was the spirit of the men. As they started feeling negative, as they started bickering, as they started doubting, they would destroy themselves from within. It was an impossible situation to get out of.

But this man was an actual genius when it comes to human nature. He understood that he had to be very rational. He couldn't get emotional. He had to make a series of very important decisions. Number one, when to abandon the ice floe and get on the little lifeboats they had to go somewhere else. And who knows where else they would go?

He had to know how to keep the men entertained; how to keep their spirits up. He had to run all these series of decisions. And if he was emotional, feeling these emotions get to him, if he started panicking, it would be the end of them. So he understood that and he calmed himself down.
Every day, he learned to sort of step back and rethink his ideas. He dealt with each individual man on the expedition as an individual. He got inside. To the carpenter, he spoke about carpentry, understood his mindset. To the photographer who was on board, who was more of an artist, he knew how to talk to him in a different language.

He knew the weaknesses of each person and how to make sure that this didn't turn into something else. He knew which group of men to put in which tents so that the malcontents wouldn't spread. He was so sensitive to each individual’s spirit that he could control them much better in a larger sense.

He knew that they had a dark side, that these men had lots of. You know, they were sailors, adventurers, who were cooped on this little ice floe. They're going to go crazy. So he organized these soccer games on the ice with an improvised soccer ball where they could get competitive and hit each other and get mean and let it all out in the game. And he let them get drunk every couple of weeks and have a festival -- [beers, lunches - 47:33]. They wanted to sort of vent some of these emotions, on and on.

ROB
Which is counterintuitive. The leader would say, “Let's just make sure everybody stays focused” and actually not allow people to have that venting which probably would have led to the destruction.

ROBERT
Something awful would have happened. It would come out in some other way.

ROB
And I also like the one part of the chapter you focused on that talked about… What really stuck out to me was when you said there was one person that really affected the mood of the whole group and he had to isolate that person in a certain way to make sure he didn't infect the whole group, otherwise, everyone was brought down. That really spoke to me, to think about who's in your organization that you know has that attitude and how do you work with the problem before it metastasized? I thought that was brilliant.

ROBERT
Well the key there is you've got 27 men and you have to pay attention to each one of them. If you have an office and you have 27 employees, inevitably, there will be one malcontent among them who's going to spread… And it only takes one to really ruin the spirit in a group. And you, as a leader, have to be attentive to each person. You don't know necessarily who that is. People wear masks. They don't show it.

But the brains of Shackleton was he was paying attention to each one of these men. He would personally talk to them and converse with them and interact with them every day. He didn't neglect anyone. He was getting into their spirit.

But that attentiveness to each person allowed him to identify the malcontent and isolate him and make sure he didn’t spread trouble. He didn't physically isolate him. He made sure that he put him, for example, in a tent with other people who weren’t potentially other malcontents, who would kind of raise his spirit up, etc. But that attentiveness and sensitivity to people's individuality is what makes a great leader.

And then the proof is in the pudding. He ended up leading men under those lifeboats to an island 300 miles away. He knew they couldn't stand that little island because there was no food. He got six men on a tiny little lifeboat and crossed 800 miles of the most treacherous waters on the planet Earth, waves 30 feet high on this little 10-foot lifeboat. Absolutely [dreadful - 50:01]. He brought them to this Island and rescued all of the men.

But how he managed to keep their spirits together and how he managed to work with their spirit and make sure that they didn't sort of dissolve from within was one of the greatest stories in the leadership history of all time.

ROB
Absolutely. -- James? I know James, you have a follow-up question.

JAMES
Well actually, it just touches on the story you just told. But also throughout your books, and Human Nature is no exception to this, your use of historical examples to provide context and illustration is captivating. I could read those all day. And then I get to also read how you apply it and stuff which is great. But just the historical examples are just amazing. What inspires you to use such an approach and how are you able to find such just spot-on examples in the great expanse of history?

ROBERT
Well it’s a lot of work, a lot of effort and energy. After six years of doing it, it kind of completely exhausted me. I've been doing it since the 48 Laws of Power. And my intuition, when I wrote my first book was I want to make a book that's entertaining. I just don't want to throw information at people. I’ve read a lot of books that bore the hell out of me and I don't want to be one of those writers, that mine is a boring book.

If you tell a story, well, it's impossible to bore your audience. You tell it in a way where you kind of lure them in by not telling them where you're headed. There's going to be a surprise, a twist at the end. I’m going to tell you the lesson to be learned and it's not necessarily what you think -- the people you think are the people being conned in the game being the con artists. That's from the 48 Laws. So I must surprise you.

And by doing that, I lure the reader in slowly into my way of thinking, into my world. And so now, you're ready to consume a 600-page book with a lot of information. But it doesn't weigh you down because I'm trying continually to entertain you and tell you stories. And stories are what keep the mind engaged.
And I tell writers a lot of times, “That's what you're missing in your book. You're not paying attention to how the human attention span works.”

So many books, I read by chapter 4, I'm already tuning it out because they just keep repeating the same information. They don't know how to entertain. So what I do is A] I look for stories that have drama to them. You know, I have a background in film and theatre so I kind of have a sense of what's dramatic, of where a good story could be, of where there's a human element where everybody can relate to. It’s got to be something that everybody can relate to in some way. It could be a story of King Louis XIV but on some human level, we can all relate to it. So I find those stories.

And then if there's somebody famous like Napoleon Bonaparte or like Mary Shelley as we talked about earlier, the woman who wrote Frankenstein, I read very long biographies. But I’m looking for little nuggets in those stories, in those books, that other people aren't looking at but I think are extremely telling about that person's character. So I'm going to surprise you.

One of the characters in The Laws of Human Nature that I talked about is Richard Nixon. He’s the exemplary story of the shadow of the dark side human personality.

I was reading a very interesting biography of him and it said that as the little boy, three years old, Nixon cried and cried and cried and cried more than any other baby they had ever seen. The mother didn't know how to make him shut up and the father hated him because of that. Even the mother got irritated with him.

I think, “What's that saying about Richard Nixon? What does it say about the man who became our president, who had all of these vulnerabilities, these wounds from his childhood that he had to cover up with this kind of macho front and this kind of paranoia about everybody?” It showed that there was this little baby inside of him who never had been loved enough, who never had been held enough. I never read that in all my… Nobody really had emphasized that. So I look for nuggets that reveal people’s character that nobody's really talking about.

PHYLICIA FANT – JULY 8, 2020

ROB
How do you be your authentic self but then also figure out how to communicate in a way that's receptive to people that may not accept your authentic self? So there's this balance of… How does one go about that in your life when you're in an industry… That can be corporate. That's not just music. I think that applies in a lot of industries. How do you go about navigating that and how do you, I guess, just go through that process as someone has to go through that all the time when you're black and you're a woman.

PHYLICIA
Well it's remembering why you're hired. And I remember that I was hired because I was black. I am a woman but first and foremost, I’m an expert at what I do. So if you can take yourself back to recognizing why you were hired and remembering that you were qualified then you will show up as yourself.

I think, often, you get off-track. Every day is not perfect. You might not make the best decision. Your idea might not be the chosen idea. But you still have to understand in all of this that you got to this position because you earned it. You got to the position because you worked hard for it and again because you are the best at what you do.

And also recognize that, while you're the best, there are ways to grow and evolve. So that's understanding your brand but recognizing that your brand can evolve because there's more to learn in any position that you're at.

I have to tell myself that I’m here for a reason. I’m here to make a change for a reason. They are asking my opinion because I have proven time and time again that I can make decisions that come out for the greater good of the company, for the greater good for the artist, which is great, which is the greater good for everyone.

ROB
Right.

PHYLICIA
At any point where you start to question who you are, that starts to get you off your game. It's like you're not at your fighting weight. So you have to remind yourself that, “Hey, they may have an opinion but I have one, too. Now how I voice my opinion is up to me; how I handle criticism is up to me” -- because there are moments where you will be criticized but recognizing the history of your journey, the experience that you had that got you this position are there for a reason.

Just as I talked to you, you know when to segue me. You know when to pull me back in. You know where to take me places. And I have to trust the process that you're giving me in this journey right now because you're an expert at what you do.

I don't talk to people every single day on a podcast but I trust that “because Rob does, I’m going to trust his journey and trust his expertise to guide me where I need to go so we can get to the right destination,” and that's with any job.

BRIAN TOME – JUNE 9, 2020

BRIAN
What that person did wrong, there's always, “Oh, hooh, okay, that person got fired from their last job. Okay. Well they deserve it then.” It’s like we're looking for justification for why that happened instead of asking ourselves, “Can I ever remember a Black authority figure beating up a white person under questionable circumstances? Can I ever remember a white person ever saying that because of my race, my life is harder?” I’d say no. We don't have any of those stories yet we see that regularly in the non-white community.

And anybody I know -- anybody I know -- who isn't white has stories to tell about how their skin tone hurt them. Rob, why don't you give us a couple of yours. I don't even know what they are but I’m sure you got them. [Crosstalk] [Inaudible - 23:14].

ROB
Yeah, I do. I have too many of them. But I’m going to follow on your point. Particularly every single Black man you know, from the nicest one that smiles, to the CEO, to the construction worker, all of them have had a bad experience at some point with law enforcement. It's nearly universal.

Everyone, I think, has what James Baldwin said. He said, “To be conscious and to be Black in America is to be constantly enraged.” All of them have some rage in them -- they do -- because it's difficult dealing with this day-to-day and people not acknowledging that this is true. We are not making this up.

My first experience with police was in the sixth grade. I went to a place -- if people know this -- called “Brentwood Bowl.” I used to play video games. That's how you know I’m getting a little bit old because I used to go somewhere and play video games in the arcades. [Laughter]

BRIAN
Yeah, right.

ROB
Right?

BRIAN
“Space Invaders, Asteroids,” yes.

ROB
Right? I mean I went there and… The manager didn't me probably because of the color of my skin -- but I never let it bother me -- and he kicked me out. I don't remember the reason. It was some made-up reason. I think I said some smart remark. I did, actually. I think I said, “Yes, ma’am” and then I left. He didn't like that.

BRIAN
You said, “Yes, ma’am”?

ROB
I did. [Laughter]

BRIAN
I like that. Okay. All right.

ROB
I did. I did. I said, “Yes, ma’am” and it was a man. And I left and then he called the police and said that I had threatened his life. Okay? I was across the street at United Dairy Farmers and then two cop cars pull up. They pull out of the car. They come in the store. They look at me and… I should say that I was with… It with several friends all of which were white. They pointed me. He said, “You know what you did…” You know, grabbed me and put me in the back of the car.

I’m in the back of the car and the officers are questioning me there. My friends run back to get my mother. My mother is obviously worried so she comes up. She said, “You're going to let my son out of the car. Why didn't you take his white friends if you thought there was an issue?” And said, “Well you're not taking my son. Either we're all going to jail” or something, so they ended up letting me go. That's the experience I had in sixth grade.

And I’ve been pulled over a whole bunch of times just because I was a Black man and had to be questioned, stopped, harassed. It's happened so many times that I have… I mean I could be here on the podcast just talking about that.

But what I want people to understand is as we talk about self-awareness, and going back to that part of that scripture, it talks about demolishing arguments and pretensions. Those are arguments you have about yourself; pretensions, which are things you believe to be compelling.

When people do or evil is allowed to happen, it's because people first convince themselves that they are good. Evil thrives when people convince themselves they are doing good. So they either act with indifference or they just let things occur.

One of the examples I go to is a book by Ta-Nehisi Coates. There's this small town in Pennsylvania and they write a letter to the government right during the times of Jim Crow and right when busing started and people started intervening and having opportunities to live where they wanted to live. And they framed their argument like this: “We are good Christian people who always follow the rules and do what's right. We just don't want Black people in our area.”

They connected the two together and didn't see a problem at all in that. And I know we still have that problem because, one, we don't challenge ourselves to understand. When I said, “Everyone is a racist,” what I meant by that is it is a construct. It is a system that has infected and affected how everybody thinks including Black people because Black people actually feel just as… sometimes even harsher than other Black--

BRIAN
Wait. Does Black people have racist issues?

ROB
Absolutely.

BRIAN
No.

ROB
What I’m talking about is they have other racist issues with Black people because the system is so set up--

BRIAN
What do you mean by that -- “Racist issues with Black people”?

ROB
What I mean is that studies have shown Black people are harder on other Black people because they believe the stereotypes and the constructs that have been put in people's head. I look at it this way--

BRIAN
Fascinating.

ROB
It’s like sin, okay? If people tell me that they're not racist, it's like the same folks who are saying like, “I'm a good person. I can do it by myself. I don't commit sin.” We are all prone to it and you have to work night and day to challenge yourself. So that's the spiritual point I’ve mentioned. There's books on this, too. “Thinking, Fast and Slow” is a great book resource on this. Your mind will always go and default to a shortcut.

We inherently learn by the images we see on the media, by the circles we keep. We learn to inherit and accept racism as a part of our DNA and it's going to take time and effort -- to go back to that verse -- to demolish those arguments and pretensions and then capture every thought.

When you have those thoughts -- because we all have them -- do the things you just said earlier. Like, is this something that I would do if this was my white friend? Would I have that same view? Am I being racist? It takes that. And that's very uncomfortable which is why people don't like to do it because people like to think of themselves as good and that leads them to a place where they can't become self-aware.

So it's opening yourself up to be vulnerable enough to say, “Yes, I am racist” because it's a natural thing. We're not talking about violent racism like we saw with George Floyd. That's a clear example of something that's horrible and it's violent. But to prevent those things, it takes steps and make sure that we are challenging the microaggressions, that we're challenging ourselves, so it doesn't get to a point where somebody can feel--

He was on tape. Just think about this for a minute. -- I know I’ve been ranting for a minute. He was on tape with his knee for nearly nine minutes while people were pleading for his life.

BRIAN
Right.

ROB
While he was pleading for his life. If a dog--

BRIAN
Right. With his hands in his pocket.

ROB
With his hands in his pocket.

[Crosstalking] [Indiscernible]

BRIAN
His hands in his pocket. Like no deal. Just chewing gum here.

ROB
Right. And if a dog was treated that way, I believe there would have been more universal outrage right away than if a Black man was treated that way. And the fact that he felt comfortable enough and empowered enough in our society to do that tells me we have a very severe problem.

BRIAN
Right. Yes, we do. It's worth just saying right now I like talking about authority figures because… I think that statistics are pretty clear. I mean people of darker skin tones have a more difficult time in the courtroom.

ROB
Absolutely.

BRIAN
People of darker skin tones have a more difficult time being elected -- at least white people electing or voting for somebody with a darker skin tone. Obviously, we're just talking about some of the violence that comes [??at - 30:27] police officers.
I just got to go on the record for myself and say, man, I’m thankful for police officers. I’m just going to cut off the emails at the legs here. I don’t want to be getting them. I'm thankful for police officers, first responders. The vast, vast, vast majority of all that I’ve known are amazing, amazing, amazing but that doesn't mean there's a few bad eggs, whatever percentage it is. You probably think it's a higher percentage than I think it is.

But nonetheless, we can't just not mention that there's bad stuff happening in police departments any more than I can mention there's bad stuff happening in pulpits. There are preachers out there that are just doing really harmful stuff. I can't get offended every time someone gets upset at preachers. I got to be willing to go, “Yeah, there's a lot of us out there that are very uncertainly…” whatever the right thing candidate is.

So I would just encourage those first responders. We're probably not talking about you -- I'm sure. I love you. Please, just try to not take this so personally and just see that we've got a macro system. And I’m for you. -- That's what I would say to those first responders. So I’m [crosstalk] [indiscernible - 31:35] you said.

ROB
And so am I. But here's the challenge in that. Chris Rock has a really funny skin on this but it's true. Sometimes, comedy is a good way to really talk about the truth. He said, “There are some professions that can't have bad apples.” People just don't accept pilots being bad apples. Like, “Oh we're fine having a pilot come out and getting drunk” and then it crashes and kills everybody. No, it's not okay.

Same thing with officers. And there's a lot of complexity to this that I can get to. I think officers should be paid more. They should have more training but there also has to be a higher level of accountability. And the fact is that 99% of executions by officers or killings that I think often aren't justified, they're able to get away.

The problem isn't that there's a bunch of great officers and great first responders. That's without question. The issue is the system allows the bad actors to stay there and it reinforces and it continues to defend bad actors out of some overall sense of loyalty to officers.

So if you take a stance to say you're against bad officers, suddenly, you are against officers which is also… It goes back to my earlier point -- one, being self-aware. Then it goes to my next point. Two, challenging people who are within your circle because--

This really help me understand it because I never really understood, Brian, why white people didn't understand the privilege they have, the power they have. But I was able to understand it. You know how I understood it -- through the “Me Too” movement. That's how I understood it.

I was talking to a female colleague about [mine - 33:20]. I said, “Look, it seems like how things are being described, you guys are saying all men are bad and all men are evil out there.” She said, “No. But all men have privileges. Isn't that what they say about racism?”

And I got it. For sexism to stop, sexual violence, men have to hold other men accountable. For racism to stop, we need more white people of good conscience to hold other white people accountable. And that will make you uncomfortable in your circles but I think that's how we tackle.

RONNE BROWN – NOVEMBER 7, 2019

ROB
There’s one moment I really want to talk about, is when you really wanted this job and you thought they were going to fire you and you got on your knees and asked them to not fire you and they didn't fire you then but they fired you later on in that day which is totally crazy.

RONNE
Let me work the whole day, Rob.

ROB
That's crazy.

RONNE
Let me work the whole… That’s how they get the last bit out of you just like that.

ROB
That’s crazy. I mean they just want to take your dignity that way. That's just crazy. Talk about that moment because that has to be like… Whoa, that's one of those gut-punching… somebody just hit you in a gut. Like you want to go back to when you were in high school. You got hit in the gut and the face in that moment.

RONNE
If I could be super transparent right now…

ROB
Yeah, please.

RONNE
…that was one of the moments in my life that I made the decision that I was going to go in a different direction. It was in that moment. It was the most embarrassing, the most humiliating and… It made me say to myself, “Black woman, do something for you so that you don't ever have to beg anyone to give you an opportunity to provide and feed your children ever again.”
I was working at a call center for Kaiser Permanente and I was literally 19 or 20 years old. I would never forget this. I was pregnant with my daughter. I was about seven or eight months pregnant and I showed up for work and I think I was two minutes late. And I went in, I was sick as a dog. I was going through pregnancy.

ROB
Right. Sure.

RONNE
I drove. It took me about an hour to get to work in traffic everyday -- literally, over an hour. I was broke. You know, I was broke. I had tickets on my car. I was hiding my car from the tow man. I got to work and they were going to let me go. Christmas was around the corner. I would never forget it. I was driving a burgundy Acura and it was tore up. When I tell you, that car… You ever drive a car and you pray to your destination?

ROB
Yes, yes, yes. [Laughter] I’ve had a car like that.

RONNE
That was my little car where I prayed--

ROB
That was automobile in ’98. Go ahead.

RONNE
Exactly. I prayed to that job every day on my way there. “God, just get me here. Get me home. Get me here. Get me home.” And I got there and they told me… She’s like, “It’s policy. You're fired.” And I remember getting on my knees. My supervisor was this tall Caucasian woman. I got down on my knees and I begged her. I was pregnant. I mean pregnant-pregnant. And I said, “I need this job. Please, I really need it” and I begged. She said, “Okay, okay, okay. I’ll give you another chance.” And at the end of the day, she called me in and she told me that they had decided to let me go.

ROB
That's just nuts.

RONNE
And I drove home and I was bawling. I tell people all the time, that ride home, when you turn the music down and there's no music playing, that's when you're really thinking. And in that moment in my life, I told myself, I said, “I am going to create my own income in some way so that no one can ever have that type of control over me.”

HAKEEM JEFFRIES – OCTOBER 28, 2019

HAKEEM
Now my journey, for instance, when I decided to make the transition from practicing attorney to candidate, hopefully public servant, was filled with disappointment as I started to make that transition.

I ran for the New York State Assembly twice against a very powerful incumbent in Central Brooklyn and lost twice. At certain point, I’m sure there were folks around who were saying, “Well maybe this public service thing ain't for you,” right?

ROB
Yeah. And it's hard losing. I’ve lost twice, too. It’s never a fun experience.

HAKEEM
Losing is not a fun experience though a lot of us have lost including, by the way, Barack Obama having lost his first congressional race and Bill Clinton having lost his first congressional race -- what you can learn from that. And they're widely regarded as two of the greatest political talents, perhaps, of the last 50 or so years in America, both of whom achieved success at the highest level in terms of becoming president and leader of the free world. They were both knocked down on the ground.

Winston Churchill once said that “In life, success is not final. Failure is not fatal. All that matters is the courage to continue.” I put it a different way: A “knocked down” is different than a “knocked out.” You might call that the “Hakeem Jeffries remake.”

ROB
All right, we’ll call it that.

HAKEEM
All right? And I’ve said almost everybody gets knocked down. I’ve been knocked down in a variety of ways including losing twice for an Assembly seat. But you have to learn from the knockdown. Have the perseverance and the wherewithal to pick yourself up as so many others have done including those whose shoulders we stand on. Our ancestors went through tremendous adversity but worked their way through it. We can as well. Pick yourself up, keep moving forward and ultimately, work toward achieving your dream.

You look at people who have achieved success at almost every level. Oprah Winfrey and Michael Jordan come to mind. There was adversity in their journeys.

ROB
Yeah, there's a lot of it. I think we have to really get to the fact that, what you're beginning to say, that he is betraying our nation and making them understand that this is not about politics.
If he can target… It's Joe Biden right now. But in the future, maybe it’s you. Or maybe he doesn't step down because when there's no rule of law, he can do anything. He can do anything and people need to know that. What's at stake is the very idea of America.

HAKEEM
That's correct. And you have hundreds of national security professionals who worked in both the Republican and Democratic administrations who have said, “The impeachment inquiry is justified” -- this was early on -- “and the information here is disturbing in the context of the abuse of power the president engaged in and the undermining of our national security.”

And we've been very clear that when there's a president engaging in out-of-control behavior, willing to undermine the safety, security and well-being of the American people, then the entire Republic is at risk for falling apart.

ROB
Does that make him a traitor? Isn't that fair? I mean I only say that because Joe Walsh… I say this because I think language is important. And I wouldn't come to this conclusion now… I mean at the beginning but now, I think after a clear pattern of Russia, the Mueller investigation… I’ve read most of that boring report but it was very disturbing.

And this is a clear pattern that this is trying to advance the interests of Russia. Whether it's intentional or not for Trump, it is advancing Russia's interests. And this is, as you say, betraying our nation. And that seems pretty close to being a traitor like Joe Walsh said who… Is there a reason you think why Democrats are hesitant to say that about Trump?

HAKEEM
Well I haven't followed Joe Walsh closely in terms of his perspective.

ROB
Well he said that. I just think… Go ahead.

HAKEEM
Listen. I think that we shouldn't get caught up in throwing rhetorical firebombs at the President of the United States of America when we're in the midst of an investigation that needs to be serious and solemn.

ROB
Sure.

HAKEEM
And all we have to do is present the truth to the American people. The story speaks for itself. The evidence of wrongdoing is hiding in plain sight. The American people are smart enough to draw their own conclusions, though we can frame our perspective. And as we've said, this is about betrayal. This is about abuse of power. This is about national security. This is about the integrity of our elections. And fundamentally, this is about the United States Constitution.

ROB
I agree. It’s about the United States Constitution and undermining the rule of law. I think we got to hammer that over and over and over again. It is a serious investigation. Let's say, if you get to that point and you get past that, I guess that's the next step because it's… What we know is they are--

It's sunny right now in DC but in Trump world, it's raining. And people will believe that because it will be fed to them over and over and over and over again.

The only thing I have to say… and this is not to you because you haven’t been out there. But I think I share a general frustration that you'll hear out of many. We need to speak with as much conviction on the truth as they do for absolute made-up lies. And I think doing that will make sure the people… because the American people are not going to be able to understand enough. Not that they’re not smart. It's just that no one has time to look through the 15-page report of Bill Taylor's testimony. If they look through it, it's really clear, right?

HAKEEM
Yeah.

ROB
If you take the time, there's no doubt in my mind that he laid out the case that this is a clear and present threat to the United States of America -- the person in this office. That's what's going on.

WILL HAYES – JULY 1, 2020

WILL
You can tell me all day long that you want to do better and this is for social good and yada-yada-yada, I'm looking at this as just being a missed opportunity -- a missed economic opportunity. So whether you're a limited partner in a venture capital firm, a private equity firm, an organization that's doing strategic investing or a corporation, if you are not looking to this portion of the population, you are missing something. So I want to say that first and foremost.

There is a lot of effort going on and I don't begrudge it. I appreciate it. But I often get rubbed the wrong way when it feels like this is some type of social responsibility initiative.
ROB
Yeah.

WILL
Forget about that. Again, we are missing a significant opportunity from a return on investment to invest in a population which… Adversity creates grit. It creates entrepreneurs.

ROB
Absolutely.

WILL
It creates leaders. So statistically, again, your hit rate will be so much higher if you start working with this population that's faced more adversity -- the Black population in particular. So venture capital needs to understand that.

Now, in terms of the opportunity… Look, we should always look for opportunity; take advantage of opportunity. This moment is definitely creating a lot of attention. I would say, if you're a Black founder, getting meetings at this point will probably feel easier to you.

ROB
Yeah.

WILL
I don't think people write checks because they feel bad. I’ve seen this happen. I’ve seen funds get announced that are supposed to do X Y & Z yet you rarely see them stay true to that mission.

At the end of the day, the checks are going to come because we can build conviction. What we need these folks to do is to actually engage with an open mind to miss some of the mistakes that I’ve experienced and others have been experiencing so we can get to work here. And that's the most important thing for the community which is--

Look, there is opportunity. It's going to take grit. It's going to take determination. And you're going to face adversity. But guess what, good news, we face adversity all the time. You know what I’m saying?

ROB
We’ve faced worse.

WILL
I have a hard time… When people hear my story and they are, “Oh my gosh. I can't believe you went through that,” I'm like, “You know it's funny because that's probably one of the more tamed things.” I'm talking about raising money from venture capital and having some issues with bias. You know, let's talk about people's situations and facing with law enforcement and housing and healthcare. I mean forget about it. This is a small problem but it's also one that I think is so easily fixable that is why I'm investing my energy and really talking about it.

So in order for AI to be effective, it has got to have more human training; more human… kind of in the middle. Now that's being effective.

The second part is biases. Think about language. So much of what we do to train AI is we look to the way people are talking. We look to the way they're talking on the internet. We look at the way they're talking on Twitter. And we use those conversations to inform the way that chatbots and artificial intelligence should behave.

Have you ever read Twitter? [Laughter] Have you ever read the comment section of a news site? And you're going to tell me this is like… It’s like if you had a child, a baby--

ROB
It’s the bottom of the barrel of the earth, sometimes, of comments and people.

WILL
So AI is like a child, right? It’s a brain that is just completely absorbable and permeable. And we're telling this child, “We want you to learn to speak English” -- actually, not even speak English. “We want you to be like a conversing member of society but you're going to go learn everything on Twitter” -- the way people talk on Twitter, the way they communicate, the way they relate sentiment to things like race, to things like sex and then we wonder why we have problems like the chatbot that Microsoft put out that was like racist.

ROB
Because it's learning a lot of the biases that we have and it's just re-implementing them.

WILL
Thank you. Now let me ask you a question.

ROB
Okay.

WILL
Do you think you and I would be surprised by the outcome of a racist chatbot that was trained--

ROB
Not at all.

WILL
Hell, no. The people at Microsoft were. Who do you think was in that room making those decisions? Was anybody like you or I sitting in that room?

ROB
Probably not. That's my guess.

WILL
So, again, you could tell me that this is wrong, that it's socially unjust. Forget about all that. You just failed. You just spent millions and millions of dollars on an initiative and it's a complete failure and it's a PR disaster and it's because you didn't have any Black people in the room.

SAMANTHA RIVERS – JULY 17, 2019

ROB
There's really an untold story of Black entrepreneurs in this country. When I looked up some things about your business and about things that were happening at the same time, I saw the information about Nathan Green. I had no idea that an African-American has so much involvement in Jack Daniels, that he actually gave him the recipe and that he was an entrepreneur. We're talking about post right after slavery.

SAMARA
Right.

ROB
But you never hear about this story. Talk about that. I know as an African-American woman that is starting a business… The guy’s name was Nathan Green and he was known as “Uncle Nearest.” And there’s this new product coming out. I’m going to try this bourbon because I like bourbon.

You come from four generations of entrepreneurs. When people think of African-Americans, unfortunately, I think the stereotype is a lot of us aren’t actually entrepreneurs. But we look at the story of Uncle Nearest and you can tell it or I can--

SAMARA
Yeah.

ROB
That is one example of many of the roots of entrepreneurship within the African-American community. Just talk a little bit about that just so listeners can understand the history.

SAMARA
I think all of our ancestors were entrepreneurs in some sort of way. Even if your grandmother or your great-grandmother was washing clothes for Miss Anne down the street, it was her laundry business.

ROB
Yeah. We lost touch of that because after integration, folks were like, “Well white folks’ ice is cooler. I want to go there.” Having been able to go there, “Let me go to that store.” And then they left all of the stuff that you had in your own community to build your own wealth. We had to be entrepreneurs to survive. And I would argue, that is the case right now.

There's a new opportunity within social media and the internet... -- I know James, you had a little anecdote you wanted to talk about.

JAMES
Oh Uncle Nearest. Well I actually learned about the story recently within the past… let's say, a little over nine months. My brother… I passed your information to him once I saw we were doing this. My brother is a big fan of Uncle Nearest and he claims that his consumption of Uncle Nearest -- him and his wife -- their first time having Uncle Nearest led to a bundle of joy nine months ago.

ROB
[Laughter] There you go.

SAMARA
Oh my god.

ROB
There you go. There you go. Uncle Nearest is creating babies out here.

SAMARA
I’ll have to [pick - 27:14] up on that.

JAMES
He told me I can say that. I was like, “Oh I’ll just say “Family members.” He’s like, “No, it’s okay. That’s something we’re proud of.” So Uncle Nearest is still getting it done.

ROB
[Laughter]

SAMARA
So here’s a big thing about Uncle Nearest. The idea of the brand for Uncle Nearest started around the same time that Black Bourbon Society was being created. It was actually created by a woman named Fawn Weaver who is from Los Angeles.
ROB
Okay. You guys are doing big in LA. Black LA is the thing. All right.

SAMARA
You know, Fawn and I and her husband, Keith, we all grew up within like a five-mile radius of each other and never knew about each other until after all of this. Like BBS was created and Uncle Nearest was--

Again, BBS was created in May. I think she launched Uncle Nearest like two months after that in the same [area - 28:14]. So just stars were starting to align the story and the universe just needed to push out and be told.

Uncle Nearest was the original master distiller for Jack Daniels. He was a slave. He was Dan Call’s slave, not Jack Daniels’ slave. Dan Call was a preacher in Lynchburg, Tennessee and Jack Daniels was a young boy who went to Dan Call and said, “Hey, I see your slaves over there making something. I want to know what they're making.”

He kept bugging Dan Call about learning how to make this whiskey or whatever the slaves were making over there and so Dan Call agreed. “Yes, I’ll give you my best -- Uncle Nearest -- and he will teach you how to make whiskey.”

So he was rented by Jack Daniels to… because he was already owned. So this is interesting, right? He was already owned. So he was rented by Jack Daniels to start making whiskey.

After emancipation happened, he was, of course, legally free but continued to work with Jack Daniels in making whiskey. They had actually bonded and created a real friendship. And there are still Nearest grand-descendants that work at the Jack Daniels [distillery - 29:37].

JAMES
Oh wow.

ROB
I didn’t know that. He made a lot of money. He made a lot of money, didn’t he?

SAMARA
Yeah. He was successful. They looked out for his family -- the Motlow’s.

ROB
That’s a good story there. It doesn’t usually end out that way. Usually, the money is taken from you. “Good bye.” You don’t get anything. So that’s good to hear.

SAMARA
Right. You know, we hear so many stories about slavery and emancipation that we automatically think they are all horrid and wrong. But Fawn has done a great amount of research and she has taken a great amount of time to make sure to tell the story accurately.

They did. They ended up becoming friends. Their families ended up becoming friends and they do support each other.

Fawn, of course, takes it to a whole another level and creates this brand in his honor. She's even gone to the point where she's researched all of his descendants even the ones that didn't realize they were descendants of Nearest Green or the importance of being a descendant of Nearest Green. She’s kind of put the family back together from [all parts of the country - 30:34].

Of course, a portion of the proceeds from the bottle sales have gone to the Uncle Nearest… No, it's the Nearest Green Foundation which supports his descendants in going to college and getting--

ROB
Oh wow.

JAMES
Nice.

ROB
That's pretty awesome. That's great. As we were talking about a little bit earlier, black business has declined. It's kind of seen an uptick recently with a lot of ventures like yourself but… How do you think we get our communities back to embracing entrepreneurship? How do we get back into that mindset, collectively, particularly supporting each other, too, because we have to prove that our ice is just as cold as everybody else.

SAMARA
I think it's more of a support thing. I think we all have this idea of wanting to be an entrepreneur but, of course, there's fear. It's kind of been ingrained in us from our parents in the last generation, and I’m going to say, specifically, like my family which might be like yours.

My mom got her degree and worked at the same job for 40 years -- same job, got her retirement, got her pension, had her benefits and she played the rules by the book. And I think that generation wanted us to live that life, too, but we're realizing that in 2019, it's just--

ROB
That life don’t exist, by the way.

SAMARA
Huh?

ROB
That life doesn’t exist anymore.

SAMARA
It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t. First of all, there’s no such thing as a “Pension.”

ROB
No, or loyalty from a company to one company.

SAMARA
Or loyalty from a company. And honestly, if you work for a company more than two to three years, you're looked at as not being ambitious enough in your career [inaudible - 32:27]. So that formula that worked so well for our parents just doesn't exist. However, some of us are willing to break that mold and some are just kind of too conservative and--

JAMES
Risk-averse. It’s a risk aversion…

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
…of what you see.

SAMARA
Yes, risk-averse and then not willing to get out there.

ROB
You’re taught a lot of wrong things.

SAMARA
Oh yeah.

ROB
You're taught, if you go to school, you work hard, you do that and you finish college then everything is great for you.

SAMARA
The American Dream.

ROB
That’s not true.

SAMARA
Then you get a house, right?

ROB
Yeah, get a house. Go ahead, get mortgage, get in debt.

SAMARA
Right. Find a college sweetheart and marry your college sweetheart, have kids then fine.

ROB
Yeah. That’s a bad… Never mind. I shouldn’t say that. [Laughter]

JAMES
That’s a societal thing that you see though.

SAMARA
All of it was lies.

ROB
It is.

JAMES
It’s a societal thing but it affects African-Americans, I think, a little more severely, oftentimes, because of where they're coming from. So you see like the entrepreneurialship, yeah, the generation prior to ours was definitely more risk-averse but the opportunities they had were more long-term. And then also, to their credit, they were really the first generation that got to plug in at the very beginning of their careers to that system. They created a huge middle class in the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s.

SAMARA
Right.

JAMES
But times have changed.

ROB
It changed a lot.

JAMES
Times have changed.

SAMARA
So just like we've had to do all this time throughout the decades and throughout the generations, we've had to adjust. And so I really feel like even if you are working your corporate job or even if you are too risk-adverse to just jump in full-throttle. Start a side hustle on the side.

And it really boils down to everybody needs to know how to hunt and not wait for the first and the fifteenth [twirl - 34:12] around for you to be set. You need to be able to know how… If your check doesn't hit… And this happened in DC with the whole government shutdown earlier this year. If your check stops tomorrow, you still need to be able to feed your family the next day.

ROB
Yeah. Reading this great book from Tim Ferriss, you have to allow yourself to not accept the reality that others want to place on you, like “You have to do all these things.” You actually have more free time than you can imagine if you're able just to not accept the reality that others try to force upon you. If you're not willing to take action--

The greatest threat is, honestly, inaction because most people in their lives, by the time they get to be 80, no one says, “My god…” Most people don't say, “I wish I didn't do that.” Most of the time they said, “I wish I would have had the courage to do XYZ.”

SAMARA
Right.

ROB
I tell folks, I don't want to be sitting on my rocking chair saying, “I wish I would have. I wish I would have. I wish I would have.” I wanted to say, “This is what I did and I’m glad I took the risk to actually do it.”

SAMARA
But going back to something that you asked me from the very beginning and that is with women in particular but also with men, how do you know you're ready to get out there and do this and just go for your passion? I feel like we find excuses for ourselves to do that, right?

JAMES
Mm-hmm.

SAMARA
We say, “Oh I’m not ready. I’m not prepared” or “Oh I’m not an expert at that.” So what do we do… And I’m sorry. I’m probably going to go down the rabbit hole with this one.

ROB
No, go ahead. Go down the rabbit hole. We like rabbit holes. This is a podcast. You can go down rabbit holes.

SAMARA
We often say like, “Oh I don’t know how to do that so I’m going to go get a degree” and that puts you in--

JAMES
And take on a bunch of debt.

ROB
Yeah.

SAMARA
Bunch of debt and it pushes you back another two years from actually fulfilling your dreams, and I think we need to get out of that habit. Unless you're becoming a doctor and you're about to do surgery on somebody, yes, you need to know what you're doing. But for you to start a side hustle business, no, you don't have to have an MBA.

ROB
No. Most people don’t.

SAMARA
Right.

JAMES
And the stuff they’re teaching you in the MBA isn't really teaching you how to do that anyway.

SAMARA
Exactly. If you know how to design shirts and you want to start a t-shirt company, you don't have to take a class for that. You just need to go on Facebook. Like, work your network. Hustle yourself. Let it be known what you're doing. But I think we often get in… And that might be something that I would also blame on the generation before us about being over-prepared. You know, you don't have to have it all. Just get started. Don't be afraid to just move and get started.

ROB
So what type of habits do you suggest to get people there? An advice that I’ve heard from some entrepreneurs, they say, “Look, just do something every day that makes you uncomfortable” -- to get used to having uncomfortable conversations; to making yourself uncomfortable. That's one piece of advice that I’ve heard over and over again, to kind of get you into that habit of getting into situations that you're afraid of.

Look, it is natural to be afraid, to be uncomfortable, but it's the people that are willing to be uncomfortable that live the most comfortably.
SAMARA
Right.

ROB
So what advice or habits might you suggest for people that are just still finding themselves in that fear state of saying, “I’m not sure. Maybe that's not me” or “That is for the few that can take that leap”?

SAMARA
I think you have to ask yourself… Well it's something one of the articles I think you referred to earlier. I said, “Get unstuck.” I think you have to challenge yourself. We all have that voice in our head that says, “Oh I can't do that. Oh I’m not ready for that.” I challenge you to ask that same voice by, “Prove me why.” I think we never challenge that inner critic on why. We just believe it and “Oh forget it. I’m not ready” and we just walk away. We accept it. But I challenge people to challenge their inner critic.

ROB
My mother -- I’m going to cuss a little bit -- she used to call it the “Itty-bitty shitty committee.” It’s the voice you’re hearing.

SAMARA
Right.

ROB
The voice you’re hearing in your head will always tell you negative thoughts.

JAMES
That gets you not just at the beginning though. Sometimes, when you have setbacks, that voice will come back again.

ROB
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve heard the voice before. I had to fight them.

JAMES
It’s the initial start and then the follow-through. I think a big part of it is selecting something or deciding to do something that you enjoy independently of the money you're trying to make on it or whatever because you have to want to be there and want to do it. And when things don't go right, to not just run for the hills or… You know, that little voice saying, “I told you so. This was never going to work” and yada-yada-yada. You got to be able to push that out.

SAMARA
I named that voice. That voice’s name is Leroy.

ROB
[Laughter]

SAMARA
“Why? But Leroy, why?” As an entrepreneur, you work in a silo -- with me and my computer. So yes, there are moments when I talk to myself because I don’t have a board.

ROB
Me, too.

SAMARA
I am the board. So it's me and Leroy and the other positive voices in my head.

JAMES
Do they have names, too?

SAMARA
Huh?

JAMES
Do the positive--

ROB
They don’t have names?

SAMARA
No. [Inaudible - 39:08] sacred to me so we don’t--

JAMES
Oh okay.

ROB
Oh okay. You can tell us. It’s just a few of us and a few thousand people. You could tell us.

SAMARA
Right. I can throw Leroy under the bus.

ROB
[Laughter]

SAMARA
But yeah, it’s always like, “Okay, yeah, Leroy, we hear you but we're going to do this anyway,” you know, and you get into the habit.
I remember when I get that feeling, when Leroy is loudest or when fear is loudest in my head, I just keep saying like, “On the other side of this hurdle is success.” You're right there at the cusp. And the closer you get to actually achieving, the louder that voice gets and so it's like, “Oh yeah. Okay, we're just going to push past because we're right there.” You're expanding your horizon. And as soon as you get past it… I mean it’s glory waiting on the other side.

BRIAN BRACKEEN – DECEMBER 11, 2019
ROB
You have the experience of founding a company -- the AI company we talked about. Can you walk us through what your lessons were on that? And looking back now, if you can see yourself now, what would you tell yourself then if you can just go back and be able to just say, “Look, Brian, these are the things that you need to know that you wish you would have known.” You just want to just mentor your younger self in that process. What would you say?

BRIAN
That's a great question. Well first, I surely would start the company again even though it was by far the hardest thing I ever did in my entire life -- the most sleepless nights, the most stress, the highest highs, certainly, but also the lowest lows of my entire adult life.

That said, it is important for people who have ability to create things and make change in the world to do so or else the world won't push forward and it won't become a better place. It's possible if you don't do that, someone else who doesn't have good intentions might.

ROB
Right.

BRIAN
So I was really proud to create an AI company and a facial recognition company that was very thoughtful about people, privacy, about working equally in all races. And that really started to set a standard for our industry and start a conversation that wasn't being had when we started the company.

ROB
Yeah. I mean facial recognition, we've also talked about this on prior shows. Technology is not going anywhere. We know that. This technology is being implemented but it's not being implemented, from my perspective, in a way that is inclusive. I guess that makes sense because nothing else has been either. But I do think there are consequences that we may not have seen with artificial intelligence facial recognition because they… You know, you look at it, it, frankly, gets us wrong a lot.
BRIAN
Yeah.

ROB
It seems to be, from my perspective, relearning some of the same biases that is supposed to be eliminating. How do we tackle that?

BRIAN
Great question. So facial recognition AI is very, very good… what we call “Pale males.” So the paler you are, the male you are, it is very, very strong in that area. But every dimension, you get away from that. White women, for instance… Not even a different race. It's 30% less accurate for white women than white men, all right? So it just kind of degrades from there.

And so what we're starting to see in the last couple of years, as the conversation start to evolve, is the real focus on getting data about other genders and cultures and colors and shades into the AIs. It knows how to find us.

ROB
Right. I mean it's not surprising that if most of the people are doing the programming, it’s going to have their bias’s frame of thinking put into it, whether they realize it or not. So I wonder if there is--

I’m hearing the conversation more but I do see the consequences of not doing that up, like technology in terms of security, right -- misidentifying someone. I’m thinking about the Minority Report, which is also probably aging me, which is the story about computers seeing into the future before a crime was committed. Maybe we don't go that far but it might be some type of facial recognition to say, “This person committed…” I’m thinking as an African-American in the United States. Like, “This person committed a crime.” Police see it. They go after the wrong person who looked confused and that person gets shot or something.

Were there any ethical concerns when you were initially approaching this, when you looked at the technology? How did you try to frame it because obviously, I think you care about it. But did your investors care about it? And how did you get them to care about it if they did?

BRIAN
So let's talk about this dystopian future you just laid out.

ROB
Yeah. Sorry, there was a lot in there. [Laughter] That was a dystopian future. I brought that.

BRIAN
Actually, today, that is already happening. There are 230 million Americans according to Georgetown University… The Georgetown Privacy Law Center estimates about 230 million of the 300 are already in the official recognition database -- already -- in what they like to call a "Perpetual lineup."

So the AI is constantly trying to figure out with a picture who this person is. And because it's not as effective on these different groups, it is more likely to false positive on a black person than a white person or again, the pale male. So this concern of yours, and I see the rhetorical in the question, is actually here now.

ROB
Oh I see the words down... Actually, it's happening right now, okay. Thank you. [Laughter] I feel a lot better now.

BRIAN
I'm glad it gave you comfort.

ROB
Okay. Yes. All right. Thank you for that comforting thought.

BRIAN
Now the good news though on the flip side of that is AI is getting better exponentially. I would say it’s three-four-five indexed better even two years ago so we are moving in the right direction.

ROB
So it’s a solution for us to actually participate... because it's kind of counterintuitive. It's like machines are learning. So is it actually more beneficial for us to actually participate and put our faces when Google is asking you on Google photos, which is clearly what they're probably doing to help them with facial recognition. Is that helpful or... because I know some people are saying, "Well I don't want to give them my data. I’ll just make sure that they never see my face. In that way, they'll never see me" -- good luck with that. But what is the solution for really solving that from your perspective, having some experience in this industry?

BRIAN
Some of the work that we did, which I hope work we're doing now, is AI to train AI. What that means is there's this... to use the technical term, "GANs" or Generative Adversarial Networks,” which that really means is you can create fake humans that have never walked the earth and use those fake faces to train an algorithm to find real faces.

ROB
That's freaky.

BRIAN
Yeah.

ROB
Okay.

BRIAN
In fact--

ROB
So we're creating fake humans now. All right. [Laughter]

BRIAN
Absolutely.

ROB
All right.

BRIAN
So what we could do for your viewers is... I’ll send you a link. You could show them right at this point in the video…

ROB
Okay. I love to see that. We'll do that.

BRIAN
…a face is being generated in real time.

ROB
Wow.

BRIAN
Every face the users are seeing right now never existed and I can generate them in seconds.

DAVE CHAPPELLE STICKS AND STONES OUTRAGE – DECEMBER 3, 2020

ROB
Speaking about culture and… I kind of want to go back to that. Jussie Smollett -- we got to talk about that. We got to talk about this. [Laughter]

TUNDE
I was very happy with Dave Chappelle on that subject.

ROB
We actually talked about this on this show. So look, we were planning… James, we were saying, “Are we going to talk about this issue” when the story first came out and we both paused and said “Nah. I don't know.” That's like the exact thing he said.

JAMES
Let this breathe a little bit and let's just see what happens.

ROB
Yeah. We were like it just doesn't… It just feels like… You know, this is a situation where every box was checked. He just looked too perfect of a victim. It didn't feel right. The story didn't mesh. And he was right. Like half of us… Some people did want to believe him especially a lot of younger Black folks, too. I’m with you, Ameshia. I see the face. I wasn't there though. I was suspicious. But some people--

I remember having this conversation with some of my friends. I said, “I don't know” and I got attacked. It was like, “What do you mean? Do you not support him? Why? Is it because he's gay?” I said, “No. It's not because he's gay. It’s…”

AMESHIA
It's because he's lying.

ROB
“…because I think he’s lying.”

JAMES
Wow. Yeah, wow.

TUNDE
“The most unbelievable story I’ve ever heard. That's why.”

ROB
Right [laughter] -- because he was lying. He still hasn't admitted. I mean does anybody now believe that he wasn't lying?

TUNDE
I’m sure somebody believes he wasn't lying.

JAMES
I mean I want--

TUNDE
I want to believe he’s not lying.

ROB
I want to believe him, too.

JAMES
I want to believe him. I wish I could but I think… No. I mean if--

AMESHIA
Again, I don't know how many of you all… Well you live in the Midwest, Rob… have lived in the Midwest.

JAMES
I live in the Midwest.

AMESHIA
It’s -25 degrees on that day.

TUNDE
I know.

AMESHIA
Look enough to figure out… especially walking to a subway.

JAMES
Yeah.

TUNDE
That was what I told my wife I remember because… I don't watch Empire so I had no idea who this guy was and she was all over.

ROB
Again, you can hear--

TUNDE
Like, “Oh didn’t you hear about…” I told her, I said, “Hold on. You're telling me in Chicago, in January, which is the coldest place in the world…” You know, Chicago in January. I said, “You're telling me at 2 a.m., there was two white guys with MAGA hats in the middle of downtown Chicago walking around with rope and going to go find a guy who's not even like world famous? I wouldn't recognize this guy if I saw him right next to me.”

The whole thing didn't sound right. Then he gets interviewed and he's got no rope burns on his neck. He said that they put the rope around his neck. And the best part… that's why I was laughing when Dave said, “Then the two guys who were perpetrators are as Black as they come?”

ROB
[Laughter]

TUNDE
Jussie, he definitely owes an apology to young white dudes with MAGA hats walking around cities.

JAMES
Yeah. He makes them a martyr in that sense -- you know, falsely accused. But I say honestly, when I hear that, I want to believe him in the sense that if something happened to him, it'd be like, “Oh man, I don't want to be the one calling him.” But yeah, that's where you have to separate. This is what you wish happens in society more. You separate what you would like to believe, what fits your outlook or your view with how people are treating other people with, “Okay, that doesn't sound right.”

We have just this week someone saying that the hurricane was going to Alabama and then… Nobody says the hurricane's going to Alabama and so they altered a map to make it look like that the map says the hurricane is going to… [Laughter] It’s like, “Look man, I know you want to believe something...” But at a certain point, you have to step back and say, “You know what, that just doesn't...” You know, it didn’t pass the smell test.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
That’s a discipline.

TUNDE
[Crosstalk] [Inaudible - 01:13:58] we're trying with that little sharpie thing. [Laughter]

ROB
Oh man.

JAMES
That’s bold, man. It wasn't even the same color as the rest of the lines.

TUNDE
I know. On the Smollett thing though, the one thing that I thought was sad in the long run is that there are gay people that suffer, you know…

JAMES
Yeah.

ROB
Yes.

TUNDE
…discriminated and this guy--

ROB
And there are Black folks that have been targeted. Hate crimes are up.

TUNDE
That stuff is real.

ROB
And the effect of what's happening in the White House is real -- having a real effect.

TUNDE
And this guy takes advantage, I feel, because [crosstalk] [indiscernible - 01:14:34] $65,000 a show.

JAMES
No. It actually dishonors… This directly dishonors Emmett Till and any other people who have actually been attacked. And some people lost their lives. This dishonors them. It's an affront to them.

TUNDE
But what makes it even worse is that it was all because the guy was complaining that he's only making $65,000 a show. I mean that's what makes it, to me, even more… Like the guy is--

ROB
I hope I have that issue of why I [crosstalk] [inaudible - 01:15:01]--

JAMES
I have to say this, man -- I don't know any reason that would be any better.

TUNDE
What I’m saying is--

JAMES
I mean he’s doing this for money. He’s doing it for notoriety. He’s doing for… whatever. It's all bad.

TUNDE
I’m not saying that there is probably a reason that I would think is fair. I’m just saying that it shows you how much in a different stratosphere this guy is living from everyone else. I mean the average salary in the United States right now is $51,000 a year.

ROB
Yep.

TUNDE
This guy, per show, is making more than the average American makes per year. He's got to making at least--

AMESHIA
Back to American family. We’re talking about families of at least three people.

TUNDE
That’s what I’m saying. So the fact that he would go through this massive orchestration… And my thing is instead of just go get an acting coach and get better at your skills… Why do all this to try and make more money when you could just… You, obviously, got your foot in the door in a good show. Just get better. Network. Go meet better people. Rise up the ladder like everyone else.

THE RIGHT PROPAGANDA – DECEMBER 3, 2020

ROB
This is where we need to go though. We know propaganda has been used. We know it's been very effective. I think it's been more than 10 years... It's really been 20 or 30 years of systematic thought. It’s been weaponized with social media. Social media has made it more effective but it's been in place for a long time. So this brings up to where we are right now.

JAMES
You can chart it, actually, from the fairness doctrine in terms of when the shackles came off the media and what they can say to you--

ROB
What is a “Fairness doctrine”? People might not know. Why don't you tell them what it is just [crosstalk] [explain that term - 01:16:32].

JAMES
The fairness doctrine was regulation that was put in place back in the ‘40s once you first started having broadcast media which regulated the way the issues were presented --issues of public importance. It regulated the way that they were presented. That's why when Reagan gets rid of the fairness doctrine… that's why you have right-wing talk radio pop-up right after that because they no longer were constrained in terms of how they presented issues. They were allowed to present issues--

ROB
They used to have to show both sides when you talked about an issue. You'd have somebody to counter balance to make sure you’re dealing with issues.

JAMES
It’s a little more complex than that. I wasn't specific but it was regulated in terms of how it was presented.

ROB
Generally, it was regulated. You couldn't call yourself “News” and come out and not have a real balanced approach to your news.

JAMES
Correct.

ROB
Essentially, that's what it… before that. That's the easiest way of describing it.

JAMES
Yeah. I guess the best way to say it is… That's not a complete way to describe it but that's kind of the gist of it, is that you had to present things with both sides type of thing. That's kind of the gist of it. -- Go ahead.

ROB
Yeah. And now you can have entertainment and say it's news. You couldn't do that before. So that's basically what's going on. And people believe or their minds allow them to believe they're watching news when you're watching an entertainer. You're watching a provocateur. You're watching somebody that is trying to get you entertained and keep you entertained. They're not trying to inform you. They're not trying to tell the truth. Their goal is to entertain you and make you feel good.

JAMES
So you'll come back.

ROB
Which is why you go to Hollywood. But it's not why you should be watching the news. I would get if you… I get not watching that, feeling… You want to feel good? Go watch a Disney movie. If you want the truth, we should have real journalism.

JAMES
And that's why you also see the way this stuff is presented with character development and story arcs where you have a villain, like a villain that's pure evil. Like Tunde was talking about, you have these pedophiles that need to be stopped.

I was telling Tunde the other day, like there's more nuance in the Avengers Endgame than a lot of these media companies. There's nuance in terms of the bad guys and the good guys and what the motivations are.

A lot of this stuff, with the media now -- with “news media” -- the way they present things, there's this bad… Like it's the devil and then it's the good guys and that's it. Everything is framed in that way.

ROB
[Laughter]

JAMES
But the reason it's presented that way is to give you a story arc where there's the bad guys. And they're just bad. There's no explanation for why they're bad. They're just bad and they just do bad things. And then there's the good guys and they're fighting for you all the time. There's no reason they're good. They're just good.

That’s how news is presented to people now -- in that framework -- because that will keep your attention. As I said, in the market, incentive is there to present this stuff as entertainment to keep eyeballs or to keep ears, to keep attention. And as a result, you have all this stuff being presented to people like it's a movie; like it's a story arc.

SHAWN HOLLEY – MAY 20, 2019

ROB
We are honored to have Shawn Holley on our show today. Shawn Holley learned the ropes from the late great Johnnie Cochran at the time when he was representing OJ during the trial of the century. She's carried his legacy forward. She continues to fight. As Johnnie Cochran says, she represents OJs. She represents no Js. She's represented Charlamagne tha God. She's represented Snoop Dogg, Justin Bieber.

But what you may have really noticed about her recently is that she was in a picture with Kim Kardashian and Donald Trump when they got a prisoner released… a former prisoner, Alice Johnson, who was convicted on a nonviolent felony for conspiracy to traffic drugs -- traffic crack cocaine. She got her off first time offense. Was in jail for the rest of her life and she got her off. And she works day in and day out to make sure that justice is provided in this country. We're honored to have her on our show -- Shawn Holley.

SHAWN
Hello. Hi.

ROB
How are you?

SHAWN
I’m fine. How are you?

ROB
I’m doing well. I want to thank you for coming on. I have two co-hosts with me -- Tunde Ogunlana and Ameshia Cross -- who also are on the show and are probably going to ask a few questions of you as well.

So again, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. We're honored to have you on the show. I know you have a lot going on and you have a lot of clients so let's just actually go right into it. We want to get a kind of sense of your early beginnings and how you got to this point. What did you want to be when you were growing up and what do you want to be now?

SHAWN
[Laughter] Well I think I wanted to be an actress and what I want to be now is an actress. Just joking.

ROB
[Laughter] Okay.

SHAWN
Yeah, I think I wanted to be an actress but I'm risk-averse. You know, there's a lot of luck involved in being an actress and I'm not down with that. I have to be able to control my destiny as much as possible.

And that profession, to me, any kind of entertainer, there's too much luck. You have to be discovered. I mean you could be really talented… I'm not saying I was. But you could be and still never make it or you could be kind of rubbish and make it. I can't have that kind of fate be a part of it. No. So I then decided instead I would control things a little more by going to law school, studying hard, taking the bar -- you know, things that you have some ability to dictate how things go.

ROB
My understanding and looking at some articles, that you didn't think law was that cool because your mother… I'm not sure she was a lawyer. Looks like she got her MBA but worked at a law firm. So you had up close and personal experience of what it was like to be a lawyer and it seemed like that didn't move you at all. So what made you change?

SHAWN
You’re so right. You’re so right. She was a legal secretary for many years and she worked at firms that were very, very boring, uptight, kind of Wall Street, white-shoe law firm. At that time, there really weren't even computers so people were just pouring over books and contracts and papers. And when I go visit her, there was just nothing about it that looked fun in the least.

I took five years to graduate from college with a degree in English which you don’t really know what to do with that degree, necessarily. And I took a year off. I mean I really didn't know what I wanted to do and just kind of picked law school by default just because it's kind of what I knew having been around my mom’s firm. Yeah, I mean I wasn't that excited about it. I didn't know what that career was going to look like. It was just like, “Well I guess I’ll go to law school.” But then it was riveting and amazing and so interesting.

And then I met a lawyer... I was waitressing after the summer of my first year which is really my favorite job. I guess that's what I wanted to do later -- is a waitress, I guess. It’s such a great job.

ROB
Okay. All right, we’re going to talk more about that. Okay.

SHAWN
Okay. So I was waitressing and a guy would come in every day for lunch with a friend and they were lawyers and they were young and they were cool and they were fun and they worked at an entertainment firm. And they were so different than the lawyers I was used to being around at my mom’s firm that I thought, “Wait a minute. I could be a lawyer like that.” And then it kind of seemed… I liked it better at that point. Like, “Oh I can be this kind of way and I’ll be good.”

ROB
So what do you want to be now though? You didn't really fully get to that. Ideally?

SHAWN
Well I’m it. I love my career. I don't aspire to be or do anything other than what I'm doing. I have a practice that I love. You know, Johnnie used to say, “We represent the OJs and the no Js.” I currently represent OJs and no Js. I have the ability to represent people who can't necessarily afford the firm where I am but I also have clients who can.

I can pick the cases that I do. I can reject cases I don't want to do. I feel like I'm helping people which is really important to me. I look at what I do as really like a service… of service. I feel really rewarded and fulfilled by being able to help people through, you know, probably the most frightening, difficult time of their life. I'm not trying to be anything other than this.

ROB
You said that you loved being a waitress which I can see the connection. You're helping people. You're serving people and you're doing it in a way. So it sounds like you've always wanted to do something where you felt as if you were having an impact. And you feel like you're doing that in your current role, it sounds like.

SHAWN
Let me just say this -- what is really different about being a waitress from doing what I do now is when you're a waitress, almost everybody that you're dealing with is happy. They're out. They're happy. You're making them happier by bringing them their delicious food and drink. It's a very happy environment. Unlike what I do now, even if I'm able to get the case dismissed or the outcome is good, still, my clients had to go through a difficult time. They had to often pay bail or legal fees. You know what I mean? So they may be happy with the outcome but the situation itself is certainly not a happy one.

ROB
I've actually had a friend go through an investigation with the FBI and this friend came out… Nothing happened to them but what they learned through the process is that they had a whole different view of how our criminal justice system works. I'm sure you've dealt with the FBI quite a bit. When they have their mind made up, it doesn't matter where you're at on the totem pole, who you are. If they want you to be involved in the case, they come after you and it's very scary. -- Go ahead.

SHAWN
It’s interesting that you say that because I don't do a lot of federal work for that very reason. If the federal government is coming after you -- be it the FBI or the DEA or the IRS or whomever it is -- they have all of their ducks in a row. The federal law is really stacked against the defendants and so it's really hard to achieve some measure of justice in the federal system. I don't like that. It worries me. I'm upset. I can't sleep. I can't eat. It's not a healthy place for me to be.

So I find that in state court, which is where I do most of my criminal work, there's a lot more discretion and flexibility and understanding. And you can have a conversation and I like that a lot better.

ROB
But as a defense attorney, sometimes you have to defend… As Johnnie Cochran said, you defend OJs and no Js. And oftentimes, you defend people that, from the appearance-wise, people assume are already guilty or they’re accused of something that's highly unpopular, just highly controversial or very heinous.

How do you block out the noise... because, you know, you're talking to someone… I'm a lawyer and I understand the process. But as much as people say they appreciate the process and appreciate the Constitution, a lot of people just want to assign “Guilt” before a trial has even happen. How do you block out the noise? And how do you explain it to people why this is a necessary function -- to have defense in this country?

SHAWN
In high-profile cases, there is a lot of noise and you don't want to block it out. You want to deal with it and change the noise to be something that's good for your client. I mean in high-profile cases, I find that you really have to deal with the media and do everything that you can to get the media as much on your side as possible.

And if you were simply to block out the noise in those cases then the media will really, just as you said, assign all sorts of nefarious intent and guilt to your client because that's the narrative that sells more, I guess. So you really have to entertain and then change the noise in high-profile cases.

In the no J cases, which is regular cases, I don't know what the noise is. I mean I'm just dealing with the case. And when people say, especially when I was a public defender… When you’re a public defender, you represents a ton of guilty people.

And the question at every cocktail party is, “How do you defend those people?” And I would liken it to being a surgeon or trauma nurse in the ER. You know, this body comes rolling in from an ambulance and something traumatic has happened that requires your immediate attention and you just get to work.

And when you see who it is, whoever the person is that you happen to dislike the most in the world, be it Donald Trump or whoever it is, you don't go, “Oh wait. It's Donald Trump therefore I'm not going to…” or whoever it is for you, you don't go, “Oh forget it. I don't want to do this.” I mean you're just a skilled tactician who has to do your job and you just see a spleen that needs hydration or whatever. -- I made that up.

And that's kind of the way I saw my work as the public defender which is you're looking at the issues, you're figuring out how to make sure that your client’s rights are being protected, that the government is not just going to railroad them, that only admissible evidence is going to be admitted, that you're going to be fighting to keep things out that should be kept out.

And the only way that any of us can have a fair trial or fair shake in the justice system is if everyone has that. I mean we can't have some situation, as you know, where somebody decides who gets a fair trial and who doesn't. I mean that can't work. So everybody gets you. Everyone does. [Crosstalk - 13:13] more.

ROB
Makes sense. -- Ameshia, if you can ask a few questions. -- She has a few questions to ask. -- Ameshia?

AMESHIA
Sure. Your background history in the work that you've done has been pretty stellar. I think that anyone, particularly young minority girls, would be very excited to know of what actually brought you down this path. But more so, what are some pieces of memorable advice that you feel like you could give to young girls who are interested in this path? We see entertainment law as being a very strong thing for them but are also intrigued by some of the defenses that you've held up for clients.

SHAWN
You know, it's so interesting, especially here in LA... You know, I speak at a lot at law schools and universities and people are always drawn to the idea of being an entertainment lawyer. And then when you ask them, “What do you think an entertainment lawyer is,” they don't really have an answer.

And I get it. I mean I remember in law school, at some point, I thought I wanted to be a sports agent. And I really had no idea what that was. It just sounded like it would be really fun and glamorous and I'd be going out to lunch with sports stars. And what we'd be talking about or what I'd be doing that required me to have a legal education and license to practice, I don't know. It just sounded glamorous.

But the reality is, and I say this when I'm speaking to these people, is if you're an entertainment lawyer, for the most part, you're doing transactional work which is to say you're working on a contract. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But the only difference here is that you're going to recognize some of the names in the contract or the studio or the network. But at the end of the day, it's still a contract.

So I consider myself, primarily… And I do things other than criminal law. I'm a defense attorney. I'm a criminal defense lawyer whose clients sometimes happen to be a celebrity. But at the end of my day, I'm a criminal defense attorney.

And so I think it's important for people… And I don't know if I'm answering your question about what I would say to young people or girls thinking about pursuing a career as an entertainment lawyer. Really, what's important is to think about what you want to do. If you want to sit in an office and draft a contract… Again, there's nothing wrong with that but that's what you're going to be doing as an entertainment lawyer in the transactional field.

If you want to be in court, standing up for someone, representing them, fighting the good fight on behalf of somebody who's been accused of something that they maybe didn't do then that's a criminal lawyer. And then maybe you're going to get to a place where you represent celebrities who are charged criminally. But it's important to figure out what it is that's of interest to you, that brings you joy, that you're passionate about and then going there, finding the place that allows you to do those things.

AMESHIA
And did you ever feel any type of anxiety early in your career, particularly, noting that you're dominating in a field that is largely male? What types of anxiety do you think that you felt or did you have any moments of doubt?

SHAWN
I'm sure. You know, I started out as a public defender and one of the things that is great about the public defender's office is you're really just kind of thrown out there immediately. You might be doing a trial within the first couple of months of you passing the bar -- so it's just out of the frying pan, into the fire or whatever it's called. Obviously, there's a lot of anxiety just in terms of being in front of a jury with someone’s liberty in your hand.

Now even though I've been doing this a long time, the reality is by the time that I graduated the law school class, and I think it's continued to be this way, there’s probably more women than men. The group of people that I entered the public defender's office with were a lot of women, maybe more than men. There's a lot of women judges. So I'm happy to say that that part of it, it has not been, in and of itself, anxiety-producing. At least here in LA, there's a lot of women doing this work and in very high prominent positions which is great.

ROB
I imagine -- this is Rob again -- it must have been pretty exciting working for Johnnie Cochran at that time. Take yourself back to that moment. What's the most valuable thing you learned from him and what's the most valuable piece of advice that you still take to this day?

SHAWN
Johnnie was the most amazing mentor one could have. I feel so lucky that I got to work with him for as long as I did. To this day, I constantly ask myself in situations, “What would Johnnie do?”

I started working with him when I had been practicing my fifth year of practice. I was a young lawyer. And I think at that early stage -- of course I speak for myself -- of my career -- I think this is true of many others -- I mean you have in mind how are lawyers supposed to be -- how you're supposed to dress, how you’re supposed to act, how you're supposed to treat your opposing counsel. And it's very staid and rigid and formal lipstick and legalistic and the whole thing. I mean you have in mind how lawyers are supposed to be. And I hadn't yet developed my own unique way so you're just kind of following this formula or pattern or model of what you think that is.

Johnnie shattered all that in the best ways. I mean he was so charming, so funny, so fun, none of which took away from his brilliance as a lawyer and his preparation and his ability to do incredible things in the courtroom and in meeting rooms. His personality was great. He was charming and charismatic and friendly and not mean to opposing counsel but nice.

So like it just shattered for me this idea that it's supposed to be this particular way and you're supposed to be this particular way. And it was like, “No, you can completely be yourself and in no way compromise your great work as a lawyer if you are nice to people.”

And when I started doing civil litigation, I mean I can't tell you how many of my opposing counsel would say to me, “You are the nicest opposing counsel we've ever talked to” because I just think people get into this mindset of, you know, “Because this is an adversarial system, I've got to be unpleasant to you.” And Johnnie was not like that at all and I’m not like that at all.

ROB
This is a good transition to really talk about the OJ trial because the OJ trial has had a lot of influence on your career, I would say.

SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
I remember where I was when the OJ verdict was announced. I mean it was that big of a deal during my time or during our time. I was in high school. I recall it very vividly. I had a very mixed class. My high school was about 50% black, 50% white. So I got a chance to see in real time how America reacted in real time. As you know, I'm sure, a lot of white America--

I can just speak for the people that were in my classroom and the teachers at that time. I mean they reacted as if a relative had been murdered -- I mean literally -- and just reacted as if this was the worst injustice ever in the history of America.

SHAWN
Yes.

ROB
Black folks had a very different reaction. It was vindication, I think. Some Black folks felt, particularly when they heard the stories of the LAPD, the officer being racist, it confirmed what the experience of many Black Americans, myself included, who have had interactions with law enforcement. Not saying all law enforcement is bad but you know there are some law enforcement that are racist in their application and in their targeting. So it confirmed, rightly or wrongly, people's beliefs and it was kind of confirmation bias.

Did you see that playing out that way? Did you know it was going to play out that way or did that surprise you the level that it played out to the fact that President Bill Clinton, at the time, actually had to weigh in to talk about the trial and talk about race relations as a reaction to the verdict?

SHAWN
Well during the trial, I think we were all aware of the fact that white people and Black people were viewing the thing through different lenses. And you are absolutely right when you say that people acted as if it was their own relative. I mean I say to this day… because all these years later, 25 years later or whatever it is, when people learn that I was a part of that case, white people can still get really upset and want to argue with you about it.

And I say to them -- and this is something that was clear to us at the time -- Robert Blake was accused of killing his wife. He was acquitted. There was no one that I've ever talked to who doesn't believe that he did it. Whether he did it or not, I don't know but people certainly believe that he did. And people, therefore, believed that it was an injustice that he was acquitted. And no one is mad about that -- no one. I don't know anybody who has any kind of emotional reaction to that injustice.

So when you bring that up to white people, they have to acknowledge that what I've just said is so. I mean even just kind of going through the case, things like that would come up, where people would just be so upset just about it in a way that they have not been upset about anything else.

Also, there was just a little kind of anecdotes where we felt like, if this had not been Nicole and if it had been Marguerite, his first wife who is black, we don't think it would have been on TV. We don’t think he… I mean there would have been bail. He would have bailed out. It wouldn't be on TV. It wouldn't be the trial of the century.

So we were definitely aware as it was going on, that it was being treated by everyone in a way that we could tell, had the circumstances or the races of the people had been different. It would not have been the same, for sure.

Now did we think that it was going to be these two completely divergent responses to the verdict? I don't think that we thought about that and that it would be a stark and as a contrast as it was. But it definitely wasn't surprising.

ROB
Tunde?

TUNDE
Hey, Shawn. Thanks so much for joining us. I have my questions from what you said before. But basically, your comments on OJ almost made me go on a whole different tangent because we just… Rob, I think we just did a show on privilege, right…

ROB
Correct.

TUNDE
…like a week or two ago. You bring up a lot of comments that I think we kind of echoed as well on that prior show. What I wanted to do, honestly, Shawn, is just commend you from the way you opened up. I read your bio and you've got a stellar bio CV and career.

SHAWN
Thank you.

TUNDE
And for you to open up and acknowledge that it took you five years to complete an undergrad in English and you took a year off and you were a waitress, I think was… It was very refreshing for me to hear, honestly, because a lot of us have, what I would call, a “zigzag line” to our success.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I think even the college scandal thing that just broke out in the last few months was another example of this idea, that people want to be so perfect and this fake idea of just, “You’re going to go to high school, get a 4.0 then go to Ivy League and then you're going to go be either a robotics engineer or the big lawyer or the big partner in this law firm.” And it's really refreshing to hear that very successful attorney at the top of her game and then top of her peers just had the regular kind of zigzag start. But it was your ambition. And I also think that--

And it’s funny. Rob mentioned the book “Laws of Human Nature” because we're reading that kind of together, all of us, because what it talks about a lot is your childhood… sorry, not “your” but the childhood of all of us and how it affects the outcome of us as adults.

And I feel like your journey did start, even though you had the experience with your mom that you shared of kind of reading the boring books and kind of the old white-shoe law firm that was boring, it's almost like that experience though was necessary because I'm sure a lot of other waitresses served young kind of fun lawyers. But what happened, that foundation that your mom gave you kind of brought you back and you said, “Okay, now I can go back to that but in my way and the fun way.”

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
So I just want to commend you for kind of opening up all that because it's great, man. Like Ameshia said, there's a lot of… not just young women but young men, too, that just are anxious... I own my own wealth management firm and it's not easy, as you know, being out there kind of slaying dragons. So I just want to commend you for being so candid about your past.

SHAWN
No, thank you. You know, it's interesting. I mean I work at a firm with… Everyone there went to top tier law schools -- you know, Harvard, a number of them -- and I didn't and I'm the one who is, every year, that woman lawyer in the state or that certain table… whatever it is. And I don't say that to like brag on myself. I'm just saying that, to your point, that it doesn't have to be that way.

I mean I remember when I was studying for the bar -- you take a bar review course -- and I met a young woman in the bar review course and she had done everything right. She'd gone to all the right schools. Every summer, she had clerks that was a judge or done something that was the perfect thing and I had done none of that.

And I said, “God. Look at you. You did all these things and I've done none of those things.” And she said, “We're in the exact same place right now.” -- She was studying for the bar -- “And you had fun and did all of this great stuff and I did not.” And she was right. I mean it struck me. Obviously, you've got to do what you've got to do. But you are right. There are different paths to get there. I feel like the passion--

I don't know if this is a question that you guys have in mind or maybe you asked it before and I just didn't answer it. But the way I ended up getting to where I am is that in law school, my criminal law professor said, “You need to do a clerkship in the public defender's office.”

You know, we were interviewing for summer associate jobs for summer after second year of law school and I was interviewing traditional kind of civil litigation firms and she had been a public defender. And she said, “You really need to interview the public defenders’ office.” And because I trusted her and because it turns out she knew me better than I myself, I listened to her and I took this job.

It was the late ‘80s and there was this huge crack which, at that time, was really even called like “rock cocaine” more. You know, it was epidemic. It was a huge deal. So I am working as a law clerk from the public defender's office and I have to talk to the people who have been charged with, in this case, lots of possession of rock cocaine. I mean that's what almost everybody was charged with.

And I go back in the holding cell which was filled with black and brown men. I mean I can't believe that there's just like… That's all. These are all the people who've been arrested in the preceding. 73 are black and brown men. 90% of them are charged with possession of rock cocaine. And my job is to talk to them and find out from their story. And each of them says, individually as I talk to them, “I am guilty. I possess rock cocaine. I want to plead guilty.” “Okay, tell me what happened.” They say, “I’m walking down the street, the police pulled up, told me to put my hands against the car. They searched me and they found rock cocaine. See, I'm guilty.” And I'm like, “Wait, hold on. They can't do that. That’s a violation of the Fourth Amendment.”

Now they don't know that. They don't think they're telling me something that is helpful for their case. They're just telling me what happened. As far as they're concerned, that proves they’re guilty.

I did read the police report. The police report says in every single one of these cases, “We were driving down the street. We saw the defendant. The defendant looked in our direction, looked scared, reached his pocket and threw rock cocaine on the sidewalk in front of us,” which is absurd. And what the police have to say… because they can't say the truth of what they really did. And I am on fire. Like I cannot believe that this is happening, that there is a holding cell…

ROB
In America.

SHAWN
…packed with black and brown men whose rights have been violated by the police. Is it just a systemic way that these guys don't even know that their rights have been violated? As far as they're concerned, they're guilty and they're going to plead guilty, and I can't believe it. And I'm like, “I have to become a public defender. This cannot be.”

ROB
Wow.

SHAWN
And it was that sense of passion and pursuit of justice in like, “I have to… I can’t…” Like whatever dream I had of being a sports agent, whatever I thought that was, it then kind of paled in terms of importance to me as this which had to do with concepts of like liberty and justice for all. Like, “No, no, no. This is what I'm doing.”

And then I was a public defender. Then I was a senior law clerk in the public defender's office and then I checked and passed the bar and I was a public defender. And it was the passion of trying to do something there with these horrible injustices war is what kind of propelled me along.

TUNDE
That’s awesome. I have another question from what you just said. It made me want to ask you because… I sent Rob and the team here on our group message thing from my phone, an article yesterday that was bothersome for me because it involves ,what you just said, law enforcement who… And I definitely don't want to paint all law enforcement in a negative light. This was about that Sandra Bland case.

SHAWN
Yes.

TUNDE
And I guess it came out, the video that she had taken from her own cell phone, that it was withheld, I guess, by--

ROB
[Crosstalk - 33:32].

TUNDE
It shows a cop basically yelling at her and she's just saying, “What's up? Why?” He's forcing her to get out the car. For any reason, I don't see why he just didn't write her a citation and leave. And it seems like he's escalating it because he's just upset that he's… He wants to be in control and he wants to tell her to get out the car and she doesn’t want to get out of the car -- typical kind of just alpha-male BS.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
And then they're saying in the article that he wrote that he was scared for his life and this whole thing.

SHAWN
Right.

TUNDE
And I started thinking about the guy that got shot in South Carolina, when the guy said, “I'm scared for my life.” And then we see on the video, not only does he shoot the guy in the back but he throws the Taser down next to the dead body on camera to try and… It was part of his police report that, “He took my Taser and I was scared for my life.”

SHAWN
Yeah. Right.

TUNDE
So my question is, we see these officers lying on their report and then on camera, it’s something else. Are they ever reprimanded for that because maybe they get off on the [crosstalk - 34:35] murder and all that but--

SHAWN
[I have enough to say that - 34:35].

TUNDE
Like, how does that work?

SHAWN
And I come from a family of law enforcement so I agree with you that not all law enforcement is bad. I found now in 30 years of practicing the kind of law I deal with law enforcement officers a lot, you can go into that job for the wrong reasons which is exactly what you said -- to exert control and authority over people. And that's not a good reason to go into a job or at least the model here with an LAPD is to protect and to serve. Like you're not protecting and serving. You're doing really a disservice.

What it show, a sense of about it all, is how they circle the wagons and rally behind each other and nobody wants to be the one to rat on the other one. They just have each other's backs in this horrible, unjust system that it's just… It's just wrong.

And in addition to the “I want to control and exert authority” and all of that, they also have a feeling of, “The end justifies the means and so we're going to do whatever it takes to find whatever it is” -- some illegal contraband, whatever it is. And they don't care about the Constitution or what they're not allowed to do.

As a young public defender, now I'm in a position to be able to challenge what I told you about… you know, what the cops are lying about, walking on the street and throwing in the sidewalk. That's emotion that you have in front of a judge where the police officer takes the stand and takes an oath to tell the truth and then tells that ridiculous story.

And then you make this motion because the judge said, “Ridiculous. Obviously, that did not happen. Surely, you are going to suppress this evidence because this person just told us all a lie and we clearly don't believe that.” And the judge would say, “Your motion to dismiss” or to suppress the evidence. You can respectfully deny.

I mean you have to, at some point, calm down and learn to deal with this which isn’t… I mean it's good for your health so you don't have an ulcer. But at the same time, it’s bad because you have to, at a certain level, come to expect this and know this is going to happen and know that you're not going to win, and it’s awful.

TUNDE
What worries me, Shawn, is that… But definitely, I don't want to go into a full-on political thing here.

SHAWN
Next time. Next time. Go ahead.

TUNDE
It’s like all coming back down to the top of our country… Like in the open, I know that always there's been shenanigans behind-the-scenes in the white houses in the past and the government.

I was telling Rob earlier that I'm on about page 50 of the Mulla Report. I read a few pages every other day or so and just kind of… I’m only page 50, so let's say… What am I? 12 % through the whole thing? I’m only on page 50. I don't see anything that is telling me that there was nothing there and all the stuff that you keep hearing. I don't know. Maybe it’s just I got a different kind of integrity and ethics.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I just don't understand how people lie.

SHAWN
No. But it’s the same thing. Yeah, we just--

ROB
But I think different standards are applied to different people. And when you think about people, when they say they believe in this Constitution, you say, “Do you believe in it only for certain people at certain times? Does it only apply to white-collar criminals?”

But when you talk about the Fourth Amendment and you have a regular person on the street, it doesn't apply to him because I think the reasoning is, well, they had something on them. So they were guilty already. That's not how it works because if you remove rights then all of our rights get removed and then you can step over the line which we see happening over and over again.

I want to get to a question about this and then I want to move to talk about the criminal justice system as a whole and some of the work you've done with Kim Kardashian. When you think about officers in the defense, that always comes up.

And we said it again, there are mostly good officers that are out there. The problem is the bad ones are not held accountable. They can always go back to the defense that, “I feared for my life. I fear for my safety” despite overwhelming evidence that that wasn't true. It seems like they only need to say that they believed it at the time. And even if their belief was unreasonable, it's an acceptable defense. That's what it seems like to me.

SHAWN
No, that’s exactly right.

ROB
What do we need to do to change the standard? How could we get people to make them understand this is not in the best interest of America? Obviously, it's not the best interest of law enforcement because I think law enforcement is going to be less safe if people don't think they can trust law enforcement. What can we do to help change the standard, change the narrative? As your world, what do you think we can do about that?

SHAWN
I don't know what can be done. When I went to Johnnie's office at that time, all he did… There was no criminal defense, notwithstanding the fact that we took the OJ case. It was all civil rights policemen conduct. So this is exactly what we were dealing with except there weren't cell phone cameras yet to disprove what has been written in the police report or what the police officer was going to testify to -- not, by the way, that having video footage of the thing has changed. It hasn’t.

ROB
Clearly, it hasn’t.

SHAWN
As we see, there's video footage which disproves the whole thing and still the results and the outcome is the same. I'm not sure that it changes so long as the victim continued to be people of color.

I'm sure you guys follow Shaun King on Twitter or Instagram. I mean he's constantly showing how the police are easily, every time, able to apprehend these white guys who have shot at a whole bunch of people, who shot at cops, who killed a bunch of people and they always managed to apprehend those people without any kind of violence.

I mean I'm certainly not wishing that this horrible fate that meets Black people encountered by the police that that now happen to white people, too. I'm not saying that. But that seems to be the thing that changes it when they become victims of whatever the injustice is. That seems to cause the shift. But so long as it's not then things are--

You know, it’s like with Philando Castile. The NRA is constantly saying, what stops the bad guy was they got a good guy with a gun. Was Philando Castile, the good guy with the gun?

ROB
Just to make sure that people know what happened, Philando Castile was pulled over by an officer and he told the officer that, “I have a firearm. I'm licensed to do it. It's in there.” And when he told the officer that, essentially the officer killed him.
SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
He was doing everything he was supposed to do.

SHAWN
And you would think and hope and expect that the NRA would come out against the officers and in defense of a person who is doing what they say they want people to do which is have a registered firearm that they're licensed to carry. But they don't mean us. When they say that, they don't mean us. They mean other white people. I mean I just don't see anything changing -- that part of it changing. I don't see that part changing so here we are.

TUNDE
I agree with you. I was going to say, I think this kind of last call -- it may be 10 years -- I would say from Sarah Palin with, “We need to take our country back,” which, I think, is pretty evident what that means to today's… You know, find people on both sides. Or the Steve King, the congressman, “I am a proud white nationalist.” I mean Trump said, “Nationalist” but the other guy didn't even hide it. He’s just, “I'm a white nationalist.”

SHAWN
Right. Right.

TUNDE
I think what my lesson is… because I was naïve for I was always thinking that the country had really kind of moved past certain things, is that the psychological strength of tribalism which has manifested itself in our modern world as race and kind of racism is so much more powerful than anything rational.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
And even going back at the national level, it goes back to your point, right? I've thought about the same thing. Like, “Why should I be surprised that half this country and half the United States Congress just wants to look the other way on the Mulla Report when there's facts in there that… And forget about Trump. I mean just the fact that Russia is actively attacking our country right now.

SHAWN
Yeah, right.

TUNDE
And that, to me, is [inaudible - 00:43:41] because Trump will be out of office at some point -- you know, next year or in five years or whatever happens -- but Russians are going to be Russians for the next thousand years, so we got to deal with that.

And I feel like it's a saying. I was thinking about that like, wow, we even have on camera Black people that are unarmed being killed by police officers and somehow that becomes a constant national debate. Like, “Oh is it wrong or not?”
SHAWN
Right.

TUNDE
And what happens when someone buys George Zimmerman's gun for a quarter million dollars at an auction and… You know, all this stuff. That’s why I'm kind of sad for our country.

ROB
They make the victim, Tunde. They make the victim. The one that's guilty, they figured out a way to play Trayvon Martin on trial.

TUNDE
Exactly. That’s my point. That’s why I kind of permeated up to now what's going on at the national level -- the administration. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with strong evidence, people that are already kind of just want to believe something will just ignore any evidence to the contrary.

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
I mean we can even go to climate change and another thing but… You know, it's just amazing--

SHAWN
Yeah.

TUNDE
Yeah, I didn't want to believe all that years ago and it's just the evidence keeps showing me that I'm wrong in my naivete.

ROB
Right.

SHAWN
Yeah, I’m like you.

ROB
So let's switch topics a little bit. I want to talk about the criminal justice system and your involvement with Kim Kardashian, in particular, and really talked a little bit about Alice Johnson because it's kind of relates to the conversation we're having now.

SHAWN
Yeah.
ROB
A lot people don't know your ties to Kim actually goes back to the OJ Simpson trial as well because her father was on the Dream Team with you. Is that correct? I think he was, yeah.

SHAWN
Yeah. Her dad was on the defense team. He and I were close friends. I came to know his kids very well when they were kids. We did social things together and we remained close and so I have continued to do work for them.

Kim has always -- always -- been interested in criminal investigation or just that whole kind of side of things. And so when she texted me… I guess it was October 2017… I guess so, yeah. She texted me a link to a story about Alice Marie Johnson and she said… And the link, the story, was really well-produced, her video, and she said, “Let's try to get this woman out of prison.”

Now Alice Marie Johnson was somebody who had no record, who was a wife and mother of four kids, I think. She worked at… I think it was FedEx in middle management -- you know, just a regular middle-class American. And she lost her job. Her husband left. One of her kids died in a scooter accident. I think it was her 12-year old child. And things really started to go downhill for her. It looked like her house was going to be foreclosed upon and things were getting really bad.

And someone came to her and said, “Listen, you can, for $1000, a pop… All you have to do is going to be… It’s a drug conspiracy but you're never going to see the drugs. You’re not going to see the drugs. All you're going to do is do a telephone deal which is to say you get a call. I'm going to call you a certain time. They’re going to say something cryptic and then you're going to relay that cryptic message in another call at the other side. It's not going to be about drugs. It not going to sound like it's about drugs. That's everything you do. You get $1000.”

It was wrong. She acknowledges it was wrong but it's not like it was the crime of the century or anything. So the drug conspiracy got busted. The people who were far more culpable than she worked out deals and she went to trial and she lost.

And going back to the beginning of our conversation when I said I don't like doing federal, the federal sentencing guidelines called for her to get life without the possibility of parole on a first-time nonviolent drug offense.

So she's in prison. She's been in prison for 22 years. She's been a model prisoner. She has taken every class. She works in the hospice. She does prison playwright. Everybody has good things to say about her including the warden. And she wants, as she should, to get out having served 22 years.

ROB
Right.

SHAWN
So Kim sees the story. Kim says, “Let's try to get her out.” “I think that that seems impossible but I'm going to try.”

ROB
And you’re telling it’s impossible because, just so you know… because you did say, I think, that Obama rejected this application, correct?

SHAWN
Yes. Obama rejected. Everybody thought that Obama would, for sure, grant her clemency. She was kind of at the top of the list of the most deserving people. And what happened was his team -- the Clemency team -- spoke with the US attorney who had prosecuted her and said, “What do you think? Should her sentence be commuted?” And he said, “She hasn't changed at all.”

Now he knew nothing about whether she changed or not. That's just what he said. And when her family learns that he said this, they camped out at his office and showed him all of the amazing things that she had done and he was like, “Oh my god. I didn't know.” And by the time he tried to reverse and let them know, Obama was out of office. So now Trump is in office. It certainly doesn't seem like something that he would do. That’s kind of, you know--

ROB
I wouldn’t have thought so.

SHAWN
Yeah. So it's about convincing Trump that her sentence should be commuted. Kim knew Ivanka and contacted her. Ivanka put Kim in touch with Jared who… You know, this is an issue for him. And I then started looking into the legal side of it, figuring out what lawyers we needed to have on our team who knew how to do this and what we were going to need to get this done.

Both had our roles. And Jared would call Kim and say, “I need this and this and this and this” and then I called the lawyers and say, “We need to get this and this and this.” And then I get it. I put it together. I get it to her and she get it to Jared. And ultimately, that culminated in our being in the Oval Office in May. I don't know that when we set out to do this, that we knew that this was going to mean like a face-to-face meeting with Trump in the Oval Office at some point.

ROB
He want to meet Kim Kardashian. [Laughter] That’s my guess.

SHAWN
No doubt. No doubt. So that's where we were and that's what happened. It was really… I mean “surreal” doesn't even begin to sum it up. I mean being there, sitting across from Kim, it was… Yeah, it was crazy.

ROB
I'm sure. And you were quoted as saying, “There are thousands of Alice's who are stuck in the same situations who don't deserve to be there.” Thinking about that quote that you just said and the work that Kim wants to do--

What I read today is that she's going to start, I guess, a reality show based upon this. I'm assuming you're going to have some involvement in that. What do you think that can do to help, I guess, empathize those who are going through the situations that Alice Johnson is going through since you said there are thousands of them. There might be tens of thousands of those. What do you think is the aim of this reality show and what can all of us do to make sure that we're doing everything we can to improve the fate of people like Alice Johnson?

SHAWN
Well, you know, this whole thing, “Alice,” let's you to first step back which was a bill supported by both parties and allows for the reconsideration of these cases where people have been sentenced according to all federal sentencing guidelines and who have spent outrageously long and unjust sentences -- incredibly long period of time.

Brittany Barnett, who is one of the lawyers that we hired who is amazing and who has a nonprofit where… This is all she does is help free people serving unjust sentences and Kim and she are working together to continue that work.

And I know that part of the reason Kim wants to be a lawyer is so that she can do a lot of this work herself. I mean it's really amazing. It's amazing that this has happened, that there has been a shift in the way these cases are viewed. It's amazing that it's happened in the Trump administration. It is. I get letters, emails, dozens, every single day from Alice's. There's not enough time in the day or lawyers available to do it all but I’m so happy that--

ROB
Let us know about some of that. -- Sorry to interrupt you.

SHAWN
Okay.

ROB
But let us know about it because what we'll do is advertise the different cases out there just so we can, at least, tell their stories in a different way. And we'd love to figure out in any way we can help advertise what's going on with the reality show as well because look, if people can be entertained and we can actually educate and make a difference then I don't care how it looks because I do think… And I'd to get your comment on this then I want to wrap up with some final questions… some more personal questions.

You know, I do think some Black women have given Kim Kardashian a hard time. I know they have and I'm sure you've seen it.

SHAWN
Yeah. Well women, in general.

ROB
Yeah, women in general. That’s true. I think Black women are harder because they feel cultural appropriation and things like that, you know.

SHAWN
Yeah.

ROB
But it's neither here nor there. I'm sure women, in general, do give Kim Kardashian a hard time. Do you think she's misunderstood? And what is it that you would want people to know about her that doesn't accurately reflect what you see in the media every day?

SHAWN
Well there is no person who has ever been in Kim's presence who would not come away and say that she is a very nice, genuine, sweet person. I mean she's so nice. She's so sweet. She's so friendly. She's so considerate. I don't know that there's anything that she does on magazines or on TV that belies that other than that she's beautiful and rich and is living a very lavish, luxurious lifestyle. And so maybe we just, on our own, decide that that means she must be snotty or arrogant or something. But she's none of those things. She’s absolutely none of those things. She’s a very nice person.

And you know what? She has all the money in the world. She doesn't have to be studying to take the bar. She didn't have to be doing any of that. She doesn't have to be spending her time or her money trying to help people who are primarily black and brown people get out of pri--

She doesn’t have to be doing any of that. She could just be sitting on a stack of money on an island that she owns and she's chosen to do the work, to do good. You know, it's hard to find fault with that.

ROB
I agree. We’re going to have her on the show. I’m going to put it out there. Just some final things here. I want to kind of change direction a little bit. Can you think about a time you failed in your career or in personal life? It doesn't matter what you learned from that and how maybe that sets you up for greater opportunity, greater success?

SHAWN
Hah, well… I mean I don't want to suggest that I haven't failed. I think that I haven't really looked at things that people might consider “Failures” to be failures. I mean I think I have a very kind of sunny and optimistic view of things. I think I feel like everything happens for a reason. I feel like there are no mistakes, only lessons. So I don't think I view past events as failures, necessarily.

ROB
So what’s the lessons?

SHAWN
I look at them as learning experiences. Honestly, I really do. So for that reason, I can't think of something that with some… you know, the horrible things that happen. You know what I mean?

ROB
Well give us your biggest learning lesson. How about your biggest learning lesson, something that... Let’s just change the nature of the question. Your biggest learning lesson.

SHAWN
Well, you know what? There was… Okay. So there was a time when a book was going to be written about the OJ trial by a person who was seemingly friendly to the defense team and who we made sure was always in the courtroom during the trial so that he could chronicle the case and the proceedings and this was all going to be a positive thing for OJ.

When the trial is over, we all were supposed to sit down with him and talk about our experience and how we perceived certain things. And he somehow -- I don't really know how -- knew a lot of things that were really privileged and confidential things. So he would ask you, “When this confidential thing happened, how did you feel?” And it was really tricky because to answer the question would be to confirm that the thing had happened which was a privileged thing so I didn't know what to do.

I went to Johnnie. Johnnie said, “Don't worry about it. We can be open and honest with him. He’s our friend. And we have a lawyer who's going to be able to vet out the things that should not be included because they are privileged and confidential.”

Anyway, to make a long story short, the guy turned out to really not be a friend. He didn't let the book get vetted and all of these things came out that never should have. Johnnie was very upset about it and he was upset with me. I mean I'm just talking about my feelings. There were a number of people. I'm just speaking from my own experience. He was upset with me. And it was very hard for me because Johnnie had never been mad at me. And my other [indiscernible - 58:38] and it was just uncomfortable.

But what I realized… And this is a lesson that I learned that is so important to me that I impart to my daughter, to my clients. And what I said to Johnnie was, “Listen, all we can control is our own conduct and our own decisions. We can't control what anybody else does or says or how they react. The decision I made at that time was to come to you and to ask you what I should do and you made the best decision you could make in that moment which was presuming that this person was good and was going to follow through on what he said he was going to do.

So the decisions we made and our conduct was righteous. And we have no control over what someone else did. And it's horrible that they did that but we can't be held responsible for that because the decisions we made were the right ones. And so I'm sorry that things turned out this way. As much for you and for me and for OJ as it did but we can only control our own conduct, our own decisions.”

That really serves me well because it causes me to focus on making the right decisions and doing the right thing. And sometimes, things don't turn out but it wasn't your fault. You did the best you could do in the moment. And as long as you're doing that then you can flip it back.

ROB
Right. Two more questions then we'll wrap up. You have a committee of three, living or dead. Who would you choose? This is your committee of advisors to advise you on life or whatever -- committee of three. They can be alive, they can be dead or combination thereof. Who would you choose and why?

SHAWN
Johnnie Cochran. That’s not fair. [Laughter] Kendrick Lamar.

ROB
Kendrick Lamar, okay.

SHAWN
Kendrick Lamar because I love Kendrick and that means that I get to like have a relationship with Kendrick while we talk about that. And Malcolm X.

ROB
Malcolm X, okay. So let's kind of hear that out. So Kendrick Lamar. Why Kendrick? Why is he's so fascinating of all the people you know by now?

SHAWN
I love Kendrick. I love Kendrick. I think that he is brilliant. I think that he has tremendous insight. I think the way he thinks is amazing and on another level. He creates all of it. I just really admire him and think that he would have a lot to contribute and probably see things from a different perspective fairly than the other two.

ROB
Yeah. Let’s talk about Malcolm X. Johnnie is clearly why you would do, I think, that one.

SHAWN
Johnnie [indiscernible - 01:01:21].

ROB
Yeah. What about Malcolm X?

SHAWN
Yeah, I just feel Malcolm X right now… Like this is crazy. I mean I agree with you, guys, that I think we were tricked into believing that somehow things were different now or they were getting better or progress was being made. And in reality, it’s same as it ever was.

Nothing has changed and the curtain has been pulled back. And Malcolm said that back then and he would say it now and I would like to hear from him as we are dealing with the things that we're dealing with in 2019.

ROB
Final question: You have a billboard that summarizes your motto or your belief. What does it say and why?

SHAWN
Well it’s super boring but it's true and that is simply, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It's so cliché and so boring but it's what it is. I mean I really try to treat people the way I want to be treated. I just feel like if you are out there doing your best, living your best life, treating people well, that that is what is most important. I'm sorry but it’s true.

ROB
No. No, that’s really good. Listen, Shawn, we appreciate having you on the show. Thank you for all you do to make our democracy better. As we always say on the show, “Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.” Stay awoke if you want to stay free.” Shawn, please come on again. I hope to meet you sometime very soon in-person. I’m Rob Richardson.

TUNDE
I’m Tunde Ogunlana.

AMESHIA
And I’m Ameshia Cross.

ROB
Shawn, thank you for coming on.

SHAWN
Awesome. Thank you, guys, so much.

ROB
We'll see you all next time.

SHAWN
Okay.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]