"Just that theft of black art for acceptable palatable white consumption and then how that's the root... That's literally the root of pop culture." -- Achinta McDaniel

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ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. With me is Achinta McDaniel with Blue13 Dance Company. It's a pleasure to have her on. If I can kind of summarize what she does, she is disrupting the common narratives about what people think it is to have American dance from a cultural kind of contemporary flair. She does it all -- mixing hip-hop, Bollywood -- showing people what real art and what dance can be and should be.

It is not a narrow definition. It's much broader than that because Americans aren't just white, just so we know. Some people might think that but we're a lot of cultures and you mix a lot of them within dance. -- Achinta, it's great to have you on.

ACHINTA McDANIEL
Thanks for having me. So excited to be here.

ROB
So you're in L.A. right now, right?

ACHINTA
I’m in L.A. in a cavernous empty dance studio during COVID.

ROB
Oh wow, yes. So typically, during this time, you usually have events. In-person events were your thing, so that's certainly been disrupted.

ACHINTA
Yeah, especially with dance. I mean in-person classes, live public performances, in-theaters even outdoor, all of it has been sort of... We've had to shift the way we do things. So it's been a challenge. But it's an interesting time for us to kind of create work and create dance and share it in different ways now.

ROB
Yeah. I always like to explore how people got down their path and if you saw this path for yourself. So I would like to ask, "What did you want to be growing up and what do you want to be now?"

ACHINTA
That's a good question. I always want to dance. I’m the daughter of immigrants and... You probably know this. We've talked about this at length. It's a different kind of pressure, you know, to sort of satisfy and be both things.

I was born in New York. I grew up in Cleveland. Super-privileged upbringing but predominantly white, so having that sort of… not being too Americanized that a lot of immigrant children hear constantly. Especially all of my Indian friends, we can all say the same thing -- not becoming too Americanized, not dating, getting straight A's.

But also, my family is a little bit different in one way, that I could compare maybe to my counterparts that I grew up with that were in the Indian community which is that they really wanted us to experience art in its many facets whether it was classical Indian music that my grandfather was passionate about--

And I grew up in a very traditional Indian household. We lived with my grandparents growing up also so I had like two sets of parents. My brother and sister and I were thrown into every activity. Again, immigrants coming to America trying to have a life that's better for their children, that’s [inaudible - 03:18].

ROB
I would just say this very quickly while you get into that because... Without being inappropriate, I would say, if I had to think about the stereotypical framing when someone thinks of immigrants... It's not just Indian – immigrants, in general, that come here. Be Ethiopians, wherever. West African, it doesn't matter. Folks come here, they usually tell them to stay focused. Do math and engineering. And if you don't, you're going to be disowned from the family. Obviously, I’m exaggerating but that's kind of--

ACHINTA
No, you're not exaggerating that one.

ROB
[Laughter] So that wasn't the case. There was that pressure but they... Do you know what inspired them to give you that freedom because I think it's good but it's often not something people think of.

Unfortunately, when people think of arts, they don't understand that the creative nature behind art is also entrepreneurial; can also wake up a lot of things in the mind. When you think about art, you can think about how you design something from a technical point of view. If you don't have that artistic point of view to really help inform the experience, people--

But people see art, I think, in a very narrow myopic scope in terms of what it is. They think you're just going to go off and just paint something and be a starving artist on the street. How did your folks kind of have a broader view of that and... I mean how were they informed that this is something that can play a larger role and it's very important?

ACHINTA
That's a great question. Again, it was very rare compared to other friends that I grew up with. My father is a neurosurgeon but he's also an incredible artist -- like a painting artist. He does oils and acrylics. He would make these massive canvases, constantly, filling them with beautiful images growing up. Also my grandfather, who used to be an air force pilot in India in World War II, was passionate about music.

So there was all these crazy kind of seemingly opposite binaries that existed that we normally are like, "Oh a neurosurgeon. He's Indian. It makes sense. He's a doctor” but also is this incredible artist and also who is an incredible chef. Right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
And my grandfather, same thing -- military, very strict and very patriarchal, kind of traditional colonized Indian upbringing but then had a huge passion for all music.

So we would hear constantly classical Indian music. And not just classical and Tchaikovsky. I mean like western classical -- all beautiful music piping out of his room at all hours with his headphones on while my grandmother slept. This was just part of upbringing. So that was already kind of different than, I think, other friends that we're growing up [with].

All good parents want to do is to have their children be afforded opportunities that they didn't have.

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
That's normal with my parents. So it's a normal thing. They didn't grow up with dance classes, horseback riding and all that stuff. It was very focused. "You do this. You go to college" and that's it. You graduate and you're done.

ROB
Your parents were first generation though.

ACHINTA
Yeah. Right.

ROB
Okay.

ACHINTA
Yeah. My mom was throwing us into every possible thing. So, “Get straight A's. But then after school, you're going to go to enrichment classes. You're going to do ice skating. You're doing tennis. You're doing sports at school.” That's not happening. I’m not the Indian tennis player like [inaudible - 06:34].

ROB
But I think that's so important -- to expose your kids and yourself. When people say, "Well I don't know what I want to do,” it's because you need to explore and do more things. I think everybody has some essential passion or a reason for being on this earth and not getting exposed to that, I think, is one of the biggest missed opportunities for anybody -- if you don't get a chance to really be aligned with your purpose.

ACHINTA
Yeah, absolutely. It's tragic. I have friends that I’m... I joke with them. He's my little brother's best friend. He's a wonderful hand surgeon. He lives in Columbus. But I’m always like, "What a waste. You're such a great dancer."

So just to say like... to not let your children kind of explore... And it can be all caught up with, "Oh you have a boy” and you think dance is for girl... You know, it can be many different reasons why.

At the university -- I teach at USC -- a lot of East Asian students will come to me and say, "I wanted to take dance classes or dance minor but my parents said I had to focus on school," that you cannot... Again, to your point, Rob, it exists in a vacuum and there's no [room for anything else - 07:49].

ROB
Right. I’m curious. How do you help navigate someone through that because I’m sure that that's not just the case with immigrants, with Indians. It's the case with a lot of people who have very stern strict parents that say, "I expect you to do this. You need to go to college for four years, major in engineering" or whatever. "And if you don't, I’m going to be severely disappointed in you."

How do you navigate telling and empowering people -- we talked about the East Asian community because you have some experience there -- knowing the narratives and the constructs that are passed down? How do you help them deprogram through that process? Take me through a student that came up to you that... I’m sure this has happened to you.

ACHINTA
Yeah.

ROB
How do you advise them through navigating this world when they've been told by their parents, "This is the only way"?

ACHINTA
That's the tough part is to try to find out a way to satisfy... And it really depends on what their cultural comfort and background is. So it depends what I'm dealing with. If I'm dealing with a high school student who is quietly telling me, "Don't tell my parents this. I don't know what to do. I have to be quiet about it. I have to major in computer science but what do you suggest I do" then I have to be like, "Well you've been treated delicately but you're an adult." So even just empowering them as far as like, "You're an adult. I get it."

But when mom and dad hold the purse strings and you have been, let's say, disallowed… Let's talk about like a very privileged perspective. Let me talk about a person first who wasn't allowed to have a job. Everything had to do with mom and dad paying the bills. There was never really the threat of "We’ll disown you" but it was implied.

ROB
Yeah, yeah. "We'll take away your money."

ACHINTA
Right. And the duty and the expectation that's so ingrained in all of us is there. "You better do better. I moved us here. I made all these sacrifices. I left my entire family behind, my support system, and now you better do well. Make me proud. Pay me back." So there's a lot of love there.

So that's the thing to grapple with them. You want to have respect but you have to find your path. You have to have some self-respect. You should go out there and prove. Not asking permission, right, but... -- What's the saying, Rob? Like, "Don't ask permission but--"

ROB
"Ask for forgiveness."

ACHINTA
"Forgiveness," right?

ROB
Yes, "Ask forgiveness." Never for permission, yes.

ACHINTA
Right. I tell almost all of the young people who ask me this that same thing. So in a disruptive sort of way but also it depends how delicate it is with... whether a person of privilege or let's go to the other side, a student or a young person that--

ROB
Before you go there, we could start on the privileged point of view. I can view it from a person who went to law school and worked for a corporate firm for a while. I mean I hated every minute of it... every second. I wasn't going to law school for that but I told myself--

I looked at the salary, "This is good." But it's like the golden handcuffs. You feel like you're doing something that you're supposed to do but if you're miserable in your experience, you're going to be miserable and you're going kind of have some animosity towards your parents. We won't hate them or anything but there will be this bent up animosity. I tell people [to] free themselves from that because at the end of the day, if you make a bunch of money and you hate your existence, what is the point?

ACHINTA
Right. What's the purpose? I totally believe that. I also say, for me, it's about leaving your mark. Not in a Shakespearean way like, "I want to have a canon of poetry and you revere me and know my name" but leaving your mark.

For me, as an artist, it's about whatever... I can be something that I'm going through to make something beautiful, to make something ugly that I'm going through, to really like find catharsis and process in there and then make an individual stamp on each single person I meet whether it's here with you and me, whether it's on the phone with somebody, whether it's with a student through an entire semester. Leaving these indelible marks on each other is what our entire existence is about.

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
Right? Like giving a gift because you have something to give. Every single one of us has something out there to give. Everyone has their own unique experiences or unique perspectives. And also a way to find that solace and finding out that you're not alone, right -- these ways of thinking. So while there's your unique snowflake thumbprint self, there's also this wonderful humanity in togetherness, right?

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
And that's why even sharing art, I also... Whoever I’m talking to but especially for younger people, I’m saying, "Talk to your parents. [It’s in - 12:57] performance and talk about the experience of the entire audience together of all different walks of life inhaling at the same time." Wow, at the same time -- having those moments together. Or even at a dance class or whatever it is -- everyone reacting in the same way and receiving from whatever the artist has given. And that can be on a museum wall, too, right?
ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
How important and beautiful those stamps are whether they're through movement or through written word or through song.

ROB
So what's interesting, we've talked about how you are helping people understand the full context of what it means to be in dance... to be in American dance that is not this limited view that folks have. But this can be a challenge. I’m curious to hear a story where you've had a challenge on this.

I recall when folks got all upset about the Little Mermaid. All of a sudden, they made the little mermaid black and there were all these trolls that came out so much so that Disney... It was a few crazy people. It was a lot of people that responded like, "How can you do this? Oh my god. She's not black. She's white." I said, "First of all, hold up. It's art. It's made up. It's a fantasy." [Laughter] But people have in this mind what art is. That's just one example. They had Ariel as being only a white woman. She couldn't possibly ever be a woman of color or black. Like, "Oh my god. The world is going to end." Like, "Calm down." But anyway... I can imagine that you probably go through something like this.

ACHINTA
[Crosstalk - 14:33] up in arms. It's a live action little mermaid. "Hello? This is not the first thing." If you're really reverent about the art and the origin, wouldn't it go all the way back to the written word of that story?

ROB
But of course, it's not about that. It's about an identity people have in their mind. And people have an identity of what classical dance and what dance is supposed to be in America. So how do you go about tackling that when people might have an image built up that is obviously based on their limited perspective?

ACHINTA
I love to just constantly call myself a “troublemaker” or a “rabble-rouser” or “disrupter.” That's why I gravitate towards you, Rob. But really, my company's mission and my whole mission, just as a human in life, has been to change perception, to not let the status quo be accepted and to challenge that. So even the company, to have shift, to help create a shift especially about dance. Like, what do you first imagine when you hear American dance? What's American dance? And you're like, "Okay, it's a white dance company that's performing modern dance on stage" or maybe it’s [inaudible - 15:53]. It’s New York City Ballet. Right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
And rarely, there might be like a handful of people who think of Alvin Ailey or in the dance... If I’m talking about the dance field, okay, then that might be a little bit more diverse perspective or thinking just because of the people that are in that sector. Right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
But in general, if you ask every man, every woman, "What is American dance," they're going to equate it with whiteness and Americanness with whiteness. Right?

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
Just like this Ariel, Little Mermaid. Just like Kamala Harris. Just like anyone that--

ROB
Do you remember when there was this big stink when... What is the country song that the black guy made?

ACHINTA
Oh yes--

ROB
"Hotel Road."

ACHINTA
Oh yeah.

ROB
Literally, the music, genre... I forgot what they called it. They didn't call it "Country" because they said it wasn't... How is this not country? It's not country because it doesn't fit in "what" because "why." It's very much a country song but it had… It kind of reminds me what Blue13 does. It just infuse some different aspects. And by the way, note, country music has a lot of roots in blackness. They just--

ACHINTA
And theft. [It sounds like that - 17:05].

ROB
Right Exactly. They just don't talk about it anymore but it's there. I mean people got really upset. People got upset with Wrangler jeans and said they want to stop wearing them so much so that Wrangler jeans had to respond, "Well we represent everybody, not just a certain sex."

I guess when you go about changing your mind, you can… I understand your purpose. We agree. How do you tackle that in a place where people aren't sometimes in their brain yet, where they can see that this is not different...

ACHINTA
Or receptive.

ROB
...that they're not receptive? But you still have to go and approach that CEO or that person to make them understand why this is something that is American. That makes sense? My question makes sense?

ACHINTA
Yeah, it totally make sense. And we teach courses about this, too, about just the theft of black art for acceptable palatable white consumption and then how that's the root... That's literally the root of pop culture.

ROB
It is.

ACHINTA
And it’s a root of so many different dance forms, right, in the United States. We're not thinking of Americanness because we've taken something that's been co-opted and then made palpable for white audiences come to fame, become a commodity and become elite.

And this is even for European ballet, right -- ballet up here as the height of all things. Hip-hop, cultural forms -- everything else like this. So even when people talk about it in their body languages, like when I go to dance conferences... And these are people who are BIPOC artists, right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
They might say, "Oh it's not ballet but it's this...." -- talking about their own work. So then I have to say, "Hey..." -- especially these conferences if we have a form to kind of interrogate this. "Hey, let's stop doing that. Let's not make our body languages dancers even denigrate our own forms. What's the investigation behind it? Why is this American? What does it mean to be American, an American dance maker or art maker? And why are you defensive?" And I could be talking literally, Rob, to people where it's dangerous for me.

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
To an agent, to a presenter, right? I could be talking to, I don't know, some giant hall in New York City that wants to book dance companies. If I have the gall at a conference to say, "Why are you defensive when I’m telling you that on your season for the past four years, you've had two black companies and that's it? And you've ignored entirely all indigenous people, any other forms of dance of people of color. Why is that? Then you get defensive." And this is something I come across all the way through 2020.

ROB
Even in the midst of everything going on in 2020, people still don't necessarily see it. And to me, it's never been clear -- the electoral politics, everything else -- how people say like, "Well..." I love the line "I’m not racist" and then the "but" follows. [Laughter] "But," right?

People are so defensive about it. But my response to people is that, "I think everybody is bias, racist, whatever you want to call it. And unless you're willing to acknowledge it, you're going to be more so. And the question is, "What are you willing to do to challenge your bias and check it?" And people don't want to do that. They'd rather just say, like you said, "I hired two black companies" or I hired two people" and that's it. Like, "Okay--"

ACHINTA
The box.

ROB
Check the box, right? If we ever want to get real equity, we have to go past, check the box.

ACHINTA
Mm-hmm. Well because there has to be this... The defensive comes, I think, out of a loss of comfort. Right?

ROB
Yep.

ACHINTA
Loss of that status quo comfort where I don't think about it but full privilege, right? I didn’t have to now... With the murder of George Floyd and the uprising and everything afterwards has been put more in people's faces. And they have to have the space through COVID... I'm sure you've talked about this non-stop...

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
...that during COVID, that they have to consume it. At the same time, that gives a lot of room for the trolls to come out, too, right...

ROB
It does.

ACHINTA
...when there's somebody in charge of the country who is a--

ROB
…who is a troll.

ACHINTA
Yeah, who is a troll.

ROB
He's a troll. I can say that.

ACHINTA
Troll and thief.

ROB
Not for long. Not for long.

ACHINTA
Not for long, yay. So it leaves room for that, too. I always say that that defensiveness is also the fear of losing something. And regardless of where you are, how much money you're making as a family or person, the fear of listening is there or the fear of loss of status and ability to sort of tell people what to do and be like the white straight man that's in charge of the room is [real - 22:05].

ROB
Yeah. Look, you mentioned a few things that I think are important and are worth diving into. People have a false belief, a narrative that's been built up and it's hard for people to let it go, right? I forgot what the premise of this law is but the more you try to go after someone's identity, even if the identity is based in nothingness, the more they will resist you.

We know that there is an identity built up in white superiority. Whether they say it or not, it is. It is built up there, right? It's there. And people don't want to say it but clearly, when people get mad about Ariel, Little Mermaid, or they get upset when you try to talk about art--

Hip-hop is very much art. It is very much art. It's art that you may not understand but how is it not art? It is, right?

I think when you get people to understand... I say for people to grow, they have to embrace being uncomfortable. They have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And that is why it's so hard to see growth. They have these false narratives brought up about like--

You look at this whole thing after the George Floyd movement. A lot of things happened. One was, whether this was the best response or not, it's still--

I agree with taking down these statues that are based upon the confederacy. And you have people say, "Well you're tearing down our culture." "No." I said the confederacy are against America. Somehow, they made this image that they are for America.

It's been very difficult because some people have an image and they don't even understand the image that is built around racism. So it's been very difficult to have this conversation because there are many layers to it. Sometimes, it's exhausting. And sometimes, I don't even want to have the conversation anymore because I’m like, "Well I don't want to exhaust myself."

I guess, I’m having my own counseling session with you. How do you go about not being exhausted by the conversation and still keeping positive while not being discouraged because sometimes that is hard, I will tell you, for me.

ACHINTA
Yeah, exhausting and feeling like you're hitting your head against the wall [for a weekend - 24:21].

ROB
Yes. And you have to sometimes pull back and you can’t say certain things because they won't get it. Then you have to just figure out how to have the patience. You're not the one that actually has the misunderstanding. It's the person you're talking to.

ACHINTA
Yes, so there's that thing. Oh so much good stuff that you said, Rob, especially about the part of identity, like if you’re attacking and they feel like their identity is being attacked. I feel a constant defense. I could try to continue to move forward through it as delicately or indelicately as the situation calls for, right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
We're talking about like those kids who ask for advice. It depends what their home life is like, right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
What’s going on there are the way I’m going to respond. Same kind of thing here, right? Like, if it's an in-law or a family member, this is a relationship that I have to preserve as a family member. But it's important for me to interrogate things like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why did you think that that doesn't make you a racist" or any of these things.

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
I'm not saying my family. I'm just saying these conversations that come up constantly with people, the way they're voting especially right now. Right?

ROB
Yes.

ACHINTA
So many like dancers, friends, students, whoever, like my aunt, my father-in-law, my this, my that, voting for Trump, I don't even know how to look at this person. So then it's about, "Well is it worth it, too?” And then, "Yes, it's worth, too.” "Can you live without this person?" "No." "Okay." So then it's worth like, "What's my way in?"

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
So this is like a staunch republican that's screaming about, "I’ve always voted republican.” Then what's your way in? Is that [inaudible - 26:08] or a Roe v. Wade argument, you know?

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
I guess being armed with facts and information [crosstalk - 26:17].

ROB
Right. I completely agree. And let me know if I’m not saying this right but I think what you're saying is that as you engage people, to try to change their perspective, is to understand their perspective first and frame it in a way that they can understand it to make them understand that they are not living up to their own perspective.

ACHINTA
Yes. Perfectly said. And it might sound a little condescending but you kind of have to spoon feed, depending on--

ROB
Well people can only take steps. It's not condescending. The mind cannot work all at once. You're not going to convert someone that has this belief overnight. They have it for a reason. They're around people, usually, that are reinforcing their own belief in. And god, if you're on social media, now you can just have it reinforced all day every day and you believe it's real.

ACHINTA
Because you're surrounding yourself with those same like-minded people.

ROB
Right. You get multiple sources of content. "This must be the truth" and it's a lie.

ACHINTA
Right. [Inaudible - 27:23]. And then you're being so deeply gaslit by saying, when real factual evidentiary news is presented, you're told this is fake news.

ROB
Right. But that's the beauty of art. I will say what you're saying. The beauty of art is that art has always been used in a way... It has always allowed people to say and take more controversial stances in a way that people can relate.

Dave Chappelle said... He doesn't say anything serious without a punch line. Everything he's saying has a social context; Richard Pryor before him. You look at Stevie Wonder, a lot of his pieces--

If you listen to them, they're all about social movements and they all have some message beyond just making you feel good, making you dance. Bob Marley, same thing. There's a lot of deep material and art… Art can transform perspectives and content in a way that other venues can't.

ACHINTA
Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. And that's the draw in, right -- some beautiful or ugly piece of art or dance that brings the audience in. And then you're asked about it later, "Well what did this" -- especially when it's a little bit more abstract, right -- “mean?” Or even if it's not abstract. Let's say I’m doing a full 20-person Bollywood dance number on stage and then the question might come about, "Oh that was great. That was great. I’m interested to know why you have not that many Indian people in your company. Why are most of the people in your company black?" These are questions that come up afterwards.

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
It just gets people interrogating in a different way to talk to the artist or the dance maker about their process and where they are and what it means. Then you're unveiling just deeper, deeper levels.

The other part that you're fighting up against besides the people reinforcing through social media like you're talking about -- if I circle back to that point -- is you're dealing with people who, through generations, and people... These are people that they love and respect that have taught them these things.

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
"If it's perceived as an attack on so and so, it's an attack on my mother and my father."

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
All they can think about is "Me. Me. Me" -- so defensive. "You're taking something from me and not--"

ROB
Which is natural. That's how people think… people, in a way.

ACHINTA
Right. So again, like if I’ve made trouble at a dance conference to fight with some white people about how they never have anyone on their stages or with agents that are like, "We've satisfied our Indianness because we have classical Indian dance" and I’m like, "Well I’m Indian. My work pulls from classical Indian dance. Am I less Indian or relevant to you as the agent, the gatekeeper…” right?
ROB
Right, "because I don't fit into your box according to what Indian artist is supposed to be."

ACHINTA
Right, or Americanness.

ROB
Or Americanness, exactly. I think that's very important because at the end of the day, you're an American who just happened be of Indian descent. That's the whole point of America, at least I thought.

ACHINTA
Yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I constantly have to fight for in the art making, right...

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
...in a good way, like that’s where my… You know, people I fight--

ROB
I enjoy a good fight, too. A good righteous fight is nothing better.

ACHINTA
That's just like part of my identity. That's where I feel comfortable.

I think I've talked about this, ad nauseam. Probably people are sick of me talking about the tightrope metaphor. That's where my identity is -- an identity of so many children or immigrants. But anyone that's an artist that has a deal with these constructs and binaries that you are constantly dipping your toe on both sides, trying to satisfy both, trying to get the grant money for this, trying to get the gig here, trying to show your work and you're on the tear up so your identity becomes those eggshells. Right?

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
That's just who you are, are kind of these two warring opposites. But then there are some comfort in there after some time. It's not fun when you're 14. But you just continue to go through. And as you develop, I think, just as a human and an artist--

ROB
That's a good transition into a question. Think about advice you would give your younger self, since you said you were 14… What advice would you give your younger self knowing all of the things you know now and then what advice would you ignore?

ACHINTA
I would probably say, "Go dance for a company a little longer before you create your own."

ROB
Interesting. So you wouldn't have gone out on your own as quickly. Tell me why.

ACHINTA
Maybe not as quickly because I feel like part of it was I don't see anyone making anything that I want to see on stage or make or dance. A lot of it was that and the diaspora thing being completely ignored in the American dance realm. But another part was fear. Straight out of college, I made... Can I swear? Sorry.

ROB
You can swear, yes. You can swear. Wait. So your advice would be, "Go do it sooner" or “Work in a company longer”?

ACHINTA
No. I think I did it a little bit out of fear. I majored in dance. "What do I do?"

ROB
You did what? Out of fear? Actually start your business?

ACHINTA
Yeah.

ROB
Interesting. Usually, people don't leave out of fear but you started your business out of fear. That's new.

ACHINTA
I've talked about the eggshells, the fine line. So part of it was being brazen and young and saying, "I'm just going to start my own company. There's nothing out there that looks like what I want or represents me." And then the other part of it was I'm too scared to audition.

ROB
Oh okay.

ACHINTA
Yeah, the self-doubt, the insecurity of youth of being an artist, as a woman.

ROB
So you would have wanted to dance, in other words. Definitely, I get it.

ACHINTA
I think so, and I did. I've had a wonderful career. I've danced a ton. I don't perform anymore but I had a wonderful career. But I might have been like, "Hey, go be fearless and see what it's like" or "Go get some rejections" and also just to see the inner workings of the company because for me, it was a lot of "Fake it till you make it" in the beginning.

ROB
That's what everybody says. It is.

ACHINTA
Yeah, it is. It is. But I felt like if I had kind of seen some of the inner workings, it might have helped.

ROB
Yeah, I agree -- because it's intimidating. You don't know how to price stuff. You don't know how to do anything of that stuff.

ACHINTA
Totally.

ROB
That's the hard part to "Fake it till you make it" because then you're, "I’m not making any profit. We got to do something different here." [Laughter]

ACHINTA
Like I would price it way too high or I would do... I had no idea.

ROB
I get it. It's the struggle of every new entrepreneur at some point. There is a tight rope here because you never really… You're never going to have all the information you need. You just need enough information. You need probably about 50% of the information. Once you got that, there's never going to be more than that, so you just got to kind of go and move forward and step out, have some faith.

ACHINTA
Yeah.

ROB
Look, you've had a great career like you said so that's actually good advice to yourself. All right, a couple of wrap up questions here. So what's an important truth you have -- might be controversial -- that few people might agree with you on?
ACHINTA
Oh, a controversial truth? Let's see -- probably that respect isn't automatic from our elders and our gatekeepers. That's where we get into the danger and that we have to continue to interrogate that because that causes a lot of self… That can get in my way, right?

ROB
Got it.

ACHINTA
Like if I just accept everything that I’m told by my elders as a good girl then I’m never going to make… I would never be anything if I do that.

ROB
Yeah. I think that's important because we're told to accept and we default to the truth that's been given to us. And often, we assume because they've been successful. That doesn't mean it's A] the best path for us. And we don't know always how they became successful, too. And it might not apply to our situation. And usually, it doesn't.

I’ve said this many times on my show. When I look at other people, their process is their process. My process is my process. I can't compare myself to somebody else and how they achieve because it's different. My path and process will be different. I think there are some learning lessons you can draw from things that they did, their work ethic, but you can't try to replicate anybody's processing.

ACHINTA
Right, yeah.

ROB
And… [Crosstalk] Go ahead.

ACHINTA
And whether they're people that are politicians or grandparents... I mean it's that granular level of being like, "Well do I need to..." It's a little [indiscernible - 36:05], right?

ROB
No. Question everything. You teach people and... I hope to teach my kids this, too: Don't accept everything anybody says. Question everything including me.

ACHINTA
Oh I love what you're saying. Yes, Rob -- including the books that you're given including religion. That's a very dangerous territory but--

ROB
But it's true because if you don't, they'll have... I mean the books are filled with religious leaders, cult leaders that have led people off of cliffs, massive horrible tragedies. I mean people use... You know this. I’m sure you do. People use religion to justify all types of atrocities. We were supposed to be following the elders and we did this because our religion told us to. Your religion didn't tell you to. Like somebody used it as a power play. This is why we have to question everything.

ACHINTA
Yeah, totally. And I think the root of it is escape -- you know, that sort of escaping the hurt. It's really simple. Don't be lazy. Do your homework.

ROB
It's simple but it's not easy though.

ACHINTA
No, it’s not.

ROB
It's very, very difficult for the human brain just... The human brain is wired to be working with its tribe. We are interdependent creatures, therefore, we believe in--

Actually, our brain... I mean the science shows that our brains literally are rewired by the people we hang around which is why it's important to hang around with the right people because you're going to be like the people that you hang around no matter what.

ACHINTA
Right. And be okay with the uncertainty that happens with that, right?

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
Like, “Okay, I was given this religion but I’m going to read about Buddhism."

ROB
Absolutely.

ACHINTA
Arm yourself with what the enemy is thinking. Arm yourself with that if you're going to make any--

ROB
And arm yourself with great knowledge. There are some great knowledge within all text, that you can learn something... And there's no threat to me from learning from other people and teaching. That takes security in yourself though. That takes security and being comfortable being uncomfortable. A lot of people are not that. People look at my friends. I’m sure I have a very diverse set of friends more than most. That's always been my experience.

Another question. You have three people on your committee. This is a committee that advises you on life, business, whatever you want. They can be living. They can be dead -- anybody through history. Who would these three people be and why?

ACHINTA
Oh my god. Three people on my committee? Oh my goodness.

ROB
Your committee for life.

ACHINTA
Oh, my life committee. Let's see. My brother, Jaikaran.

ROB
Okay.

ACHINTA
He's a living person. Just a brilliant thinker and gives me a lot of pushback, too.

ROB
That's good. He wound you with the truth.

ACHINTA
Right. I'm not his boss, you know. He's just a brilliant mind and inventive thinker and can temper my storm a little bit.

ROB
All right, who else you got? Two others.

ACHINTA
Let's go with Siddhārtha.

ROB
Okay.

ACHINTA
Yeah, the Buddha for obvious reasons, I think.

ROB
Well tell your reasons because people may not know.

ACHINTA
Well I think just to travel down that -- we're talking much about tightropes -- but travel down this path of not equating materialism and material wealth with happiness and self-fulfillment and enlightenment and to really look inwards and live a simple kind life. Just exert human kindness on a daily level.

ROB
Okay. Who's your third?

ACHINTA
I need a woman. My third... Who's my third going to be? My god. You put me on the spot, Rob.

ROB
Sorry.

ACHINTA
Well... Let's see. I need a dancer.

ROB
We can come back to it.

ACHINTA
[Inaudible - 40:23] because I only get three. I'm like, "Do I get 10?"

ROB
You get three. If you want to think about it later, you can come back to that. We'll stop at two. Let's get the final question in. You have a billboard, a Google ad that summarizes your saying, your theme for life. What does that say?

ACHINTA
Oh my god. My billboard for life?

ROB
Yes.

ACHINTA
"Give me face or give me death." No, I'm kidding. [Laughter] That's what I say to my students when we're dancing.

ROB
What do you say?

ACHINTA
I say, "Give me face--"
ROB
Oh all right.

ACHINTA
Like your expression, your inner... who you are.

ROB
That can be good. That's good.

ACHINTA
It’s okay but I think it’s more of this: "The only way out is through."

ROB
Okay. That's a good one.

ACHINTA
That's why I tattooed them.

ROB
Yeah. Well good. You have your saying tattooed on you. It makes it rather easy. Okay.

ACHINTA
Just go for it. Yeah, just fight through it. Fight through it and get there, you know.

ROB
Yeah. Why does that saying mean so much to you? Was there something in your life that inspires that or it's just generally what you believe?

ACHINTA
Not just life and career -- definitely, everything that we talked about. And just not being afraid of the fight. Just any adversity, tragedy, loss of loved ones, you have to get through it.

ROB
Is there any moment in particular that stands out where they're really kind of--

ACHINTA
Yeah. I think this is a heavy one -- just the loss of my sister.

ROB
When did you lose your sister?

ACHINTA
In 2003.

ROB
I lost my sister this year.

ACHINTA
You did, Rob?

ROB
Yeah. I lost my sister at the beginning of this year.

ACHINTA
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm sending you lots of love.

ROB
Thank you.

ACHINTA
That's advice that I tell anyone. I feel like a part of my stamp on this earth is to help people, to be the example of going through loss like that in such a bad way and to be able to help and be an example, to be the solace that you and I have gone through this. I am still standing. I am flourishing and I can use her incredible life that I was touched with so many years.

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
It was short and it was unfair and everything. It was a horrible thing to go through but I can... I think of her every day. I'm so lucky to have had her. This is something that… I can’t compare myself to somebody who's had far more tragedy. Right?

ROB
Right.

ACHINTA
It all just depends on your perspective. But for me, barreling through those first few years, that were really the hardest. At that time, you weren't thinking of it but now, having gone through it for so many years and being able to realize and to tell other people who are going through loss or feeling really hopeless, that you're not alone.

And don't try to compartmentalize it. Try to take a big breathe and pull the strands apart because it can feel like an avalanche. But you can get through it. And if I can get through it, you know, of losing my best friend in the world, then I can dance about it and talk about it and make this connection with other people like you.

ROB
Yeah.

ACHINTA
Again, I always say that to my... “What a terrible thing to have in common but also what solace we can give to each other.”

ROB
Yeah, I completely agree. My belief is I believe she is with us still but just a change of venue. Our golden mission to life is to live and serve… Really, we serve the ones that have transitioned by living and taking their legacy and telling about their legacy through our work and through what we do in life. And this is what you're doing so congratulations for that. -- Achinta, it's been an honor to have you on.

ACHINTA
Thanks, Rob. It's been wonderful talking to you. I can do this for days.

ROB
Yeah. Good to have you on with the Blue13 Dance Company. We'll have more in the bio. It's been great having you on.

ACHINTA
Thanks, Rob.

ROB
Thank you.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]