“So at the same time, the HBCUs just are out of money. They're struggling financially. And she's saying it would be nice if some of these athletes use their agency because they are the product. And they walk around acting like… a lot of times like these schools are doing them a favor. If Zion Williamson is playing basketball, people are going to pay to see it.

ROB
No matter where he is.

JAMES
And so Duke is not doing him a favor.

AMESHIA
But you’re not going to be seen if you're playing for a team that's not even in the division.

JAMES
No, you will. You will.

AMESHIA
So I’m at a loss as to why this--

JAMES
You can say that in 1990.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
You can say that in 1990. But right now, you could be seen--

AMESHIA
Well think about the big team. Well think about these--

JAMES
You’re going to be seen by the pros, too. You’re going to be seen by the pros, too -- the scouts.

ROB
Yeah, I agree.“ -- Rob Richardson with James Keys and Ameshia Cross

---------------------

ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I'm your host and moderator, Rob Richardson.

JAMES KEYS
I'm James Keys…

AMESHIA CROSS
…and I'm Ameshia Cross

ROB
If you remember, this is a few weeks back, the Rich Paul Rule came out which is a ridiculous rule that try to limit access to those who could actually represent NBA agents. It was all ridiculous.

But after that backlash, some people were coming out with this movement to say black athletes should actually start going to HBCUs and start making a movement out of that, particularly Jemele Hill who really hasn't been shy about her opinions.

We want to talk about it. Is she making a good point? Should black college athletes take more agency and actually do things to actually move the ball and maybe even go to HBCUs and start that trend? I don't know. We're going to talk about all sides of it and we really want to kind of have that debate. That's what we do here at Disruption Now. We disrupt common narratives and constructs and we're going to have a little fun today doing that.

So look, Jemele Hill makes a point. If you remember all the way back to the ‘90s… Ameshia may not remember. I don't know what she was doing then but I was watching college basketball then.

AMESHIA
I wasn’t watching college basketball in the ‘90s.

ROB
Yeah, we know. We know.

AMESHIA
I was just learning how to write.

ROB
[Laughter] So the Fab Five really started a trend. And think about it, we still talk about the Fab Five to this very day when five black athletes… They didn't go to an HBCU but they really started a trend. They said, “We're going to go here. We're going to start and bring hip-hop culture.” Five freshmen went all the way to the final four and you had almost nearly everybody from the hood rooting for them and everybody else rooting for Duke. Duke, the evil empire, some people felt, myself included, won. Sorry. No disrespect to Duke if you love Duke. But I hate Duke. So they ended up winning.

But they ended up really setting trends and setting a pattern and show people… And I think that actually made others kind of not like them, felt like they were “over aggressive black men” -- you know, all those terms that get thrown around. But it showed what could happen. So I do think that model possibly exists. But there are some other sides to it.

I want to get your guys’ opinion. I have my own opinion on it but I want to hear you guys. I want to hear the panel. I know Ameshia has a lot of really strong feelings about this -- so I would let you go first.

AMESHIA
Much respect to Jemele Hill for coming back after being outspoken at ESPN. But I feel like this has been a debate that we have had for years at this point. I don't think that there is a reason to tell black athletes that they should be choosing HBCUs. As someone who comes from a family of athletes, I can name only one that chose to go to an HBCU and the reasoning for him was more academics than anything else.

If we're talking about people who legitimately or feel like they really are going to have a shot at the NFL or the NBA, they're going to go to schools where the recruiters are going to see them and they're going to get noticed. They're going to go to schools… that the boosters and their money, too. They're going to go to schools that already have those advantages for young people who are wanting to get involved in these sports. And they're the ones that highly recruit them.

If I'm someone who is interested in getting drafted to a major team, I'm going to go to a school that is known to drafting people to the major teams. That's what I'm going to be looking forward to. I'm not going to choose one where I know that I'm going to be… No matter how good I am, I'm going to have to, one, be able to best those that are already at institutions that fund sports more heavily.

But also looking at the fact that I don't think that you gain anything as an African-American by telling all African-Americans, regardless if it's for sports or for academics, just to go to HBCUs. I think that that should be the student's personal choice, dependent on a variety of reasons and characteristics of things that matter to them. I don't think that it's fair, especially in today's day and age, where we're looking to advance diversity, where we’re trying to showcase and bring people to a better understanding of our culture to continue to separate ourselves.

ROB
But do you think that's what these power conferences are doing? And I want to have James… James went to an HBCU. I don't think these power conferences--

JAMES
That’s true.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
Howard University. Yes, sir.

ROB
Yeah. Look, these power conferences care about advance in diversity. In fact, a lot of them don't even have affirmative action and they have fake inclusion programs -- real talk. But they do. They are all about inclusion, of course, when it comes to athletics. And you can even lower the standards when the athletes come in. So I don't know if you see the proof of… You actually see these black graduates coming through or with majors that actually will help them. Like general studies is not going to help you do much but that's what a lot of people get their degrees in.

JAMES
When you talk about this issue, you have to talk about the monetary aspect because that's all this is about. The Power Five conferences or the NCAA, it's about money. It's about controlling the producers of value so that they can profit off them without paying them, without worrying about workers comp and things like that.

And Jemele Hill’s argument is also an economic one. She's not saying that people should go to black colleges because that's just what… like, “Oh yes, that's honorable” or whatever. She's saying that the athletes that are participating at a high level and the NCAA, whether it's basket--

The television sports, that's what we're really talking about here. Men's college basketball is a television sport. Billions of dollars are paid to broadcast that on television. College football is a television sport. Billions of dollars are paid to broadcast at the high levels on college football.

She's saying that the product there, the people who are producing the value, are African-American athletes. At the same time, the HBCUs just are out of money. They're struggling financially. She's saying it would be nice if some of these athletes use their agency because they are the product. And they walk around acting like… a lot of times like these schools are doing them a favor. If Zion Williamson is playing basketball, people are going to pay to see it.

ROB
No matter where he is.

JAMES
And so Duke is not doing him a favor.

AMESHIA
But you’re going to be seen if you're playing for a team that's not even in the division.

JAMES
No, you will. You will.

AMESHIA
So I’m at a loss as to why this is--

JAMES
You can say that in 1990.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
You can say that in 1990. But right now, you could be seen--

AMESHIA
Well think about the big team. Think about these--

JAMES
You’re going to be seen by the pros, too. You’re going to be seen by the pros, too -- the scouts.

ROB
Yeah, I agree, particularly basketball. I think we got a separate basketball. Football, maybe a little bit different on this. But with basketball, you could be… If you have a school that's playing well and you're winning games, you're going to be seen.

JAMES
The number two pick in the Draft--

ROB
Steph Curry.

JAMES
No, no.

ROB
It went to Davison. -- Go ahead.

JAMES
This year. This year, the number two pick in the NBA Draft went to Murray State. You’re telling me Murray State gets more exposure than Howard?

AMESHIA
The HBCUs want top players. HBCUs needs to be able to bring something to the table that makes those top players choose those schools. I agree with you. This is more about money than it is anything else. It's about money for the PWIs. It's about money for the HBCUs. If your package is not as incentivizing as another ones then you cannot get mad that you were not the choice.

ROB
But I think graduating--

JAMES
That’s a fair point.

ROB
That’s a fair point.

JAMES
That’s a fair point.

ROB
That’s a fair point. And I think graduating--

JAMES
She’s saying that… at a solidarity though, that, “Hey, maybe we should try to direct some of this money back into our own communities out of solidarity.” I'm not saying that it's a controlling argument. I'm saying the argument is about money.

Your point is valid, too. Like, “Hey, up your game if you want to get into this game” because as she pointed out in the article, Clemson athletic facility, North Carolina [NTs - 08:24] endowment are nearly equivalent. And so up your game if you want to get into that game. But there is something always to be said in terms of solidarity with black folks who share a common struggle in terms of oppression and they have this historical context.

ROB
And HBCUs have a really great track record with black graduates better than anybody else by a lot -- I mean by a whole lot. Like would you say 80% of judges, 50% of lawyers, I think 50% of doctors, 40% of those in Congress, 13% of CEOs, particularly some of the… I don't know if I'm going to differentiate this. But people… especially like Howard, I would say, Morehouse, I would say--

AMESHIA
We differentiate them as top 10 tier HBCUs versus everybody.

ROB
Exactly. Exactly, especially some of the top tier. What I'm saying is having a long term interest versus a short term. And the short term, I can tell you, all the big five are going to be able to offer you a better package. There’s just no question.

AMESHIA
But it’s also what your long term goals are because as somebody who has worked with a lot of college students and settlement scholarship boards and been in these institutions, at the end of the day, I'm sorry, there are a lot of athletes who their only goal is to make it to the NBA or the NFL.

ROB
Which is a bad goal.

AMESHIA
It’s a bad goal but it would be a bad goal if they went to an HBCU. Just going to an HBCU doesn't change their goal.

ROB
No. But going to an HBCU--

AMESHIA
They came in with a mindset that “This is what I’m going to do.”

JAMES
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. That’s not a bad goal. I mean if you weigh risk/reward--

AMESHIA
Well it is because you have less than 4% that are actually going to have a career past three or four years.

ROB
Eventually, the only goal--

JAMES
Play the numbers out though. Would you rather take a 2% of making $10 million dollars or a 40% of making $40,000? It’s not 100% if you go and get a degree either.

AMESHIA
Well I’ve always encourage those students, even the strongest players, to also have something else that is a back-up plan. You're right. You could still end up having some financial issues--
AMESHIA
What’s the back-up plan? Working at Uber? Doing an Uber driver?

ROB
Exactly. I mean that's kind of the point. All I'm saying is making sure that… We know if you're in these HBCUs, they're going to do everything possible to tell you, if you're not LeBron James, if you're not Zion Williamson, which is not 99% of people, you need to at least have a back-up plan and understand things… You know, understand how your money works even if you make it. Ask a lot of players. Hooh, we got like Antoine Walker who's had $120 million. He has nothing now. Adrian Peterson went from zero to $100 million.

AMESHIA
It’s ironic that seemingly only happens in mass to black athletes. There's something else we need to talk about.

ROB
No.

JAMES
No, no. That happens to musicians. That happens to a lot of people who make the money fast…

AMESHIA
In mass that we’re talking about.

JAMES
…is what that happens to.

AMESHIA
Oh yes, and people who have come from backgrounds where they have not seen a lot of money.

ROB
Right. I agree.

AMESHIA
There’s something about financial education that we can't deny is missing in our neighborhood.

JAMES
Yes, 100%. But also when you make your money fast, you value it less than you do when you make your money slow… when you build up slowly. Like that's anything. That's life. That's a human thing. Like if one day, you have zero and the next day, you have 100 million then naturally, your brain kind of thinks, “Oh okay, I can blow this hundred million and then the next day after that, I’ll make another hundred million.”

AMESHIA
And I would necessarily always say that it's fast because if I'm… Again… I don't know whether you were an athlete but growing up as an athlete, having siblings and cousins who actually played in the NFL, for me, it was… I'm not going to say that this was fast because they started training when they were kids. They started going to these things and being recruited by top high schools…

JAMES
Of course. Of course.

AMESHIA
…then they went on to very strong colleges and were able to play at the highest level there and then get recruited. So this is something that was years in the making. They just didn’t wake up one day and become--

JAMES
Payoff was fast though. They didn’t go from making $50,000 a year in high school to $150,000 a year in the pros.

ROB
Into a million.

JAMES
They were getting zero. They were getting a meal card at college and then they were getting $10 million signing bonus.

AMESHIA
Well if Jemele Hill hadn’t written… and she was arguing that these athletes should be paid, I will be 100% on board. I am for many reasons. Just pushing people to HBCUs…

ROB
We can talk about that.

JAMES
We’ll touch on that, for sure.

AMESHIA
…that’s going to take a little bit [more - 12:02].

ROB
Yeah. And I just think like--

JAMES
But--

ROB
Go ahead, James.

AMESHIA
No, I was just saying… I mean I think we have to look at this for what it is though. It's a fair point. It's not a controlling point. And really, this is a person with decision. I think--

AMESHIA
It’s money grab. It is a money grab for HBCUs in the same way that everybody was writing after students had had some issues on campus and needed to have their campus safe spaces at PWIs and HBCUs were like, “No. You can just come here.” And they experienced a bit of a surge of students during that time and they loved it. Right now, this is another area in which I think that many are a little opportunistic and trying to push its way.

JAMES
No.

ROB
I want to push back on a couple of points. So me being a person who’s been an athlete, I've seen what they've done particularly going to… from high school

AMESHIA
Why did you not choose an HBCU to be an athlete?

ROB
No. No, I wasn't that good. I'm saying I understand the culture that's pushed by many people in our community, outside of our community, saying, “Don't focus on those books. Don't do that. Put all your time being an athlete.” That is a wrong mentality no matter what you say. Across the board, that's not… For almost every single person, that's not going to do them any good. It will help other people, it will help institutions, it will help that high school, it might help that college but it's going to hurt you long term.

I do know HBCUs… you know, if you go to the right one, they will call you… The professor is, “Why did you miss class today?” I've talked to people that have gone through this. They treat you like you're part of the community versus a commodity which we know… They definitely treat you like a commodity because they see you as paying their bills. So I do think it's a little different.

JAMES
You are.

ROB
Yeah. I think it's a little different. I do think black people do start trends. Imagine if only a few major athletes say they all went to Howard. They started off and built from Howard. They would really start something. I think people would at least look at that and see a lot of things that black colleges offer that are different, too, that I think a lot of people would like.

Think about what Beyoncé did when she let everybody see black bands and black culture. A lot of people were like, “Wow, I had no idea that that happened.” I think it also helped black people and I think helped a lot of other people. That's all. I'm not saying everybody should do that. But I do think black athletes have a lot more power and agency than they actually give themselves credit for. We are the culture.

JAMES
Yes.

ROB
We are the culture.

JAMES
And that’s the point, actually. I want to push back against the money grab point because it's not a money grab. In a sense, it's an awakening and saying, “Look, you do have a lot of power in this multi-billion dollar industry,” and so at least, consciously, we are welded. Everything is not for everybody. I always say that.

What she's saying is not for every single black athlete. But for some who want to exert some type of social conscience in their point of college selection, this is an opportunity, a way to do that. You can take the money that you generate by virtue of your athletic prowess that you're not getting any of and you can direct that in a place that's more conscious or direct it more consciously to a place that may comport with your belief system that's already in place. I don’t think she’s trying to change anybody’s belief system.

AMESHIA
So there can be a [real - 15:02] conscious and have a strong belief system and go to a PWI and play there?

ROB
No. It is a--

JAMES
No. But that doesn’t… That definitely is the financial piece.

AMESHIA
My main thing is this is [crosstalk - 15:11] past but then again, they have several different options. And again, when you have choice, and this is the path that you choose, I don't see why there would be a problem there.

ROB
Well I don't think they should do… But I think there are people that say that you're not going to have as good of options--

AMESHIA
And they would be correct because historically speaking, we've seen this in numbers. So these people are not wrong.

ROB
I disagree with that point because I would think if more of us are actually able to graduate and actually move on--

AMESHIA
But you can’t disagree with that in practice because again, if the sole point is that you have more options here… And we've seen this play out in numbers for those who to be athletes.

ROB
What does “options” mean? I mean now--

JAMES
No, that’s not true. How is that true?

AMESHIA
This is what we see.

ROB
How is that true?

AMESHIA
We have seen more black athletes come out of PWIs. Those are top black athletes.

JAMES
No. It sounds like you have a better chance of not going to the pros by going to that.

AMESHIA
Those are two different things.

JAMES
Let me say this. Hold on. Hold on. Let me say this. There is a point that you are not making that I think is 100% correct that it supports you and that is right now… because the money is at the predominantly white schools, the medical care and travel and things like that, which also affects your health, is going to be much better. So yes, from that standpoint, athletically, you'll be better served at Clemson than you would be at South Carolina State. You're going to have much better medical care and that stuff really matters.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
Now the objective over time would be to level out the playing field by, again, directing… You're using your talents to cause more money to be directed to these black schools. It's not that they don't have the money from sports because they're just wasting it, they're just not generating the same amount of money because they don't have CBS or Fox or ESPN writing them billion-dollar checks. So there's a difference there.

And the point, again, is just to say, “Hey, maybe we should consider also trying to get some of these checks that the TV people are writing to go to HBCUs.” And if it’s not for you, it’s not for you. And I don't think it's compulsory. If it's not for you, it's not for you. But we should at least be conscious of the decision.

ROB
Yeah. No doubt. I actually look at it this way. It’s not just about if it's better for you as an athlete. I think that we have to get out of that mindset because 99% of us are not going to go on to be professional athletes. And even the small percentage that do, they're going to have very short careers. So we're going to need to develop academically and we're going to need to know to invest in ourselves and not listen to those in our community and outside that say, “All you need to do is focus on your athletics. You're going there to be an athlete.” No, you're not.

AMESHIA
But that's a conversation that needs to be held long before somebody is making a college decision. We need to be having this in elementary school, middle school, because there are literally people who are geared from a very young age to where this is what they see as their [outlet - 17:50]. It doesn’t matter if they choose a PWI or an HBCU.

ROB
I agree.

JAMES
Hold on. But isn’t this whole point about the athletes that are generating the money, like the really high--

ROB
Correct.
JAMES
The 12th guy on the bench at Duke is not bringing in TV dollars. It's Zion Williamson. It's RJ Barrett. The people that we’re talking about are the people that are the potential pros.

ROB
Right.

JAMES
She's saying that the people who are drawing eyeballs to the screen… and frankly, that's not the 12th guy on the basketball bench or the 90th guy on the football roster. We're talking about stars.

AMESHIA
Then that only makes it harder for them because at the end of the day, if you're talking about bringing the people who are going to bring the major dollars, who are the stars of the team, they have more options than anybody else and they always will.

JAMES
Correct.

AMESHIA
So again, that means you have to be… Even if HBCUs came out competitive one year… Okay, you get a whole rush of top five black athletes to show up there, you have to show that in consistency or at least then be drafted in consistency for generations of black people to say, “This is the move I want to make.”

ROB
And to your point [crosstalk]--

JAMES
No, no, no.

ROB
Go ahead.

JAMES
Rutgers doesn't show that they're consistently good at anything. So you're saying that people should go to Rutgers instead of Howard?

AMESHIA
Alabama does and Alabama is the dream for a whole bunch of people who want to play football.

ROB
Yeah. I mean--

JAMES
No. Rutgers, it’s consistently--

AMESHIA
It doesn’t matter where you went to high school. It doesn't matter what other colleges exist. You want to go to a school that you're looking at that consistently remains strong.

ROB
Let me pivot [crosstalk]… Go ahead.

JAMES
But there are plenty of power conference schools that aren't strong.

ROB
That's true.

JAMES
In Alabama, if you're saying Clemson, if you're saying Duke, then yeah, you’re going to go somewhere. But there are a lot of loser power five programs.

ROB
Yeah. You make a great point, James. But I also want to go back to a point that Ameshia made earlier. We have to have the conversation earlier -- elementary, middle school. But you are pushed then--

And I would say these schools are willing to lower their standards considerably if they can get an athlete. But I say, we can solve a problem in a lot of urban communities because people will make sure we would actually get better educated black men and women if we say A] “The standards got to be the same across the board. We don't believe in inclusive programs. We don't believe in affirmative action. We don't need to do it for sports either. And make sure that people get in no matter what.” So then people are going to say, “Well maybe we need to do more to prepare people instead of just saying you just focus on being the athlete.” I think that's a big problem.

JAMES
That’s Pollyannaish, man. That’s not how the world works. The world doesn't work like that. If you have a talent and that talent is valuable then people make exceptions for you.

AMESHIA
And we will work with you around that talent.

JAMES
It’s not some like funny business going on with athletics.

AMESHIA
And we know that a lot of those students aren't where they need to be academically and that's why they have assigned to them several different tutors and everything else. And they have a different course track in many cases in a lot of other students. It is what it is.

ROB
But they’ve also--

JAMES
And again, people are not doing them a favor. They’re doing that because these people are valuable.

AMESHIA
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t think that that--

ROB
But -- a bunch of but -- but I think you’re doing an injustice to a lot of kids if you're doing that to them early on because they do this to them starting in middle school. And you don't know if somebody's going to be LeBron James. I don't think that's valuable to those kids.

JAMES
It doesn't help them, no. I'm not saying it’s helping them.

ROB
That’s what I’m saying.

JAMES
I’m saying that's the way the world works though.

ROB
That is but that doesn't mean I accept that.

JAMES
There are 30-year-olds right now that get every excuse made for them because they drive revenue. There are 40-year-olds.

ROB
Oh yeah, there’s no question.

JAMES
There are 50-year-olds that may like… There are 70-year-olds.
ROB
What I'm saying is it's hurting them. It’s not you… At least those people are being helped. Long-term, overall, you do the numbers, were being hurt by that process. And yes, it may be Pollyannaish but I'm making a point that we need to have more agency on the process. I think that's another level of what Jemele could be pointing to. I just want to point that out.

JAMES
Yes. I mean she's definitely saying that.

ROB
Yeah. So let's talk about money. We talked about having an agency. You have all these athletes that are not paid $1. We've talked about this before. But what really pisses me off is that not only can you not be paid at all, you can't even make money off your likeness. So if someone wanted to start a YouTube show--

There was actually a guy who did this. I think Donald… I can't remember his last name. But he did this. He started his own YouTube station and all this other stuff. He did everything he needed to do academically. He was doing his stuff but they prevented him from being able to collect the money he was getting from that just because he was playing football. I think that's ridiculous.

So you're also, at the same time, exploiting these kids. And at the same time, you're not going to allow them to make any money and they can't even have a regular job like other students can. Then you want to say they're “students. They're not “athletes.” I mean…

JAMES
There’s two pieces of that though.

ROB
…I don’t get that.

JAMES
One is the workers comp piece. If they're classified as employees or if they can argue under agency law that they're employees and not student athletes then you have workers comp issues. The exposure to the university goes up. But also it’s just about controlling them.

ROB
It is about controlling them.

JAMES
It’s completely BS. Now they're paid in the form of a “scholarship” which by the way was the same deal people got 50 years ago when there was no television contract. Before, it was, “Okay, you get your scholarship. We get to keep the money from the tickets we sell.” Now that's actually not too bad. That's not that bad of a fair deal. I don't think that--

In terms of ticket sales, maybe athletes shouldn't get that. But once you start putting it on TV, what you're already doing up for a performance, you put it on TV… You're not doing anything to get it on TV. All you're doing is getting a check. Somebody's showing up and shooting it. So you're not even shooting it. Once you start doing that then you are actually selling their performance beyond the confines of your stadium.

And that part, basically… I think that's illegal. I think that the Supreme… not the Supreme Court but the appellate court… as this is working towards appellate court, that's not going to stand because they are just not able to say, “Okay. Yes, we will take TV money for your performances and then you do not get any cut of that.” And then as you said, you can't do any endorsements. You can't do anything with your likeness.

Now the other piece that you have to consider is that this is not fair. If it was fair then let's say, “Okay, take away the scholarship. Let them negotiate for free or let them negotiate equally…” Let's say, “Okay, Zion Williamson, you negotiate with Duke. You see what you end up with in terms of value.” You know it's going to be much more than scholarship. That's how you know that by restricting people to a scholarship, you are cutting them off. You are doing something in its anti-capitalist, anti-free market. Dare I say you are a socialist [inaudible - 23:50]. [Laughter]

AMESHIA
I think I'm going to agree with you a lot there. I think we're in a different space today where you're seeing more and more of these games get on network TV. You're seeing more and more of these schools actually have apparel that's not only sold here but also sold abroad. They are literally making millions, sometimes billions off of these athletes and there should be a question there as to the value-add for the athlete because yes, they get their moment to shine but they're not getting anything while they're there.

And for you to talk about it, just in terms of scholarship, your scholarship, in and of itself, is less than 2% of what the school is making off of these students anyway. So there has to be something more.

I agree with you in terms of the negotiation power as well. It's something that I don't think that schools are going to buy into anytime too soon but it's definitely something that I think that more and more schools should take up.

ROB
Yeah. Schools are never going to buy into it. Power concedes nothing without a demand. Never has, never will, right?

JAMES
Of course. Why would they?
ROB
Yeah, they’re not going to.

JAMES
They had workforce locked in. It's ridiculous. I made this point a couple of months ago on one of the podcast we did. You'd be like your employer paying you with the product that they provide, normally. Like if you work for Nike, all they do is give you shoes. It’s like, “No. I need some money. I need to buy stuff. What am I going to do with all these shoes?”

So it's not like the colleges are doing anything out that they don't already do for the athletes. All they're doing is saying, “Yeah, I sell cars.” Like, “Here, work for me in my Ford factory and I’ll give you a free car” and that's it. It’s like, “Well no. That's ridiculous.” So we wouldn't accept that anywhere else. The people who perform and the people who drive revenue should be able to capitalize on that. That's what we're supposed to believe in as Americans.

ROB
Which is why they have to take agency of who they are no matter how that looks, even if that's organizing a union, whatever. I think more and more players have to think about how they're going to take agency back that’s going to HBCUs. I think the broader point--

AMESHIA
HBCUs aren't going to pay them either.

ROB
That's a good point.

JAMES
But if you’re going to HBCUs, the predominantly white schools will start paying.

ROB
Yeah, exactly. Right. That’s a good point. But the point is we have to take agency and understand our own power. There's a lot of power in what we bring and I don't think the value is being reflected in that. And we just have to realize that as a culture, going across the board, I think--

JAMES
I think that's the big point, man.

ROB
That’s the point.

JAMES
The big point isn’t that everybody needs to go to an HBCU. The big point is that… put that in your calculus when you're considering where you want to go to school. Like, “Hey, I'm making a lot of money for X school and I get a set amount back.”

So whatever X school is, if I want to go here because they have the best facilities or I want to go here because I'm being TV the most or I want to go here because of whatever reason, you can also consider, “I want to go here because I want to direct all the money that I'm bringing in back into this community.” Like that could just be one of the considerations. I think that’s the whole point.

ROB
I don’t think a lot of people have professional athleticism. Actually, think about that. We have our shining moments of glory with athletes who are giving back to the community at the highest level. And then we have those who are “Me, me, me, me,” spending their money on cars, women and other things.

ROB
Yeah. You have the Michael Jordan or--

AMESHIA
I don’t think that's going to change…

ROB
Yeah.

AMESHIA
…based on someone's… I don't even expect that type of appeal from someone who is 18 or 19 years old if we can't get it out of somebody who is 30.

ROB
No. But I think we have to keep making a conscious effort to make people aware because some people aren't even socially conscious that they should be doing it, right? But we have had athletes who've done that. We've had Muhammad Ali. I think LeBron James does a good job. Then you have the OJ Simpson model as James said about--

We’ve seen that paradigm. You can be profitable, make a lot of money in both. You can get back. You can be conscious and you can still make money because there's this false narrative out that says that, “Oh, if you're conscious, you lose money.” You might lose some money but that doesn't mean you're going to… You might not make money that way. There's other opportunities to make money. I mean LeBron has shown that. Muhammad Ali…How much is Muhammad Ali’s worth?

AMESHIA
But I don’t think that this is something that they are sitting around consciously thinking. When you talk about LeBron, you talk about people Muhammad Ali, they had lifelong pursuits of social justice. It wasn't just when they became athletes. They were able to give more when they did. But these were people who were always… It is in their DNA to do this.

ROB
Yes, I agree.

AMESHIA
I am arguing that there are a lot of individuals that that does not exist for.

ROB
No. I agree.

JAMES
Correct. Correct. But you shouldn't underestimate all 18-year-olds though. Yes, many 18-year-olds are not going to be thinking about what's best for society in terms of their college choice but some will. So those who do want to factor out into their mindset then let's give… “Hey, this is something else you can consider as far as the impact of your decision -- the impact of your decision to bring value wherever you go to college” because it's not a one-way street.

A lot of times, people have in their mind this is a one-way street. “I go to college. They're doing something for me. I'm just grateful that they're just doing all this for me.” But actually, you're bringing in millions of dollars for them.

And if you want to direct that money in a conscious way somewhere where you think it'd be important then great. If you don’t then great. You know, do you. But at the same time, it is something that… if it's not brought up then people won't even see it, that it’s an affect that they can have.

ROB
That’s the point because LeBron… My guess is LeBron had others who taught him those values. Some people do have it instinctively. But generally, people learn the values from community. And so making sure that we're socially conscious can do nothing but help.

So if we tell our athletes, “Just focus on being an athlete” and that's it [versus] “Actually, focus on making sure you do more to help. It is not always about you” then we might be more likely to actually see more economic improvements.

I think that's what we're trying to point, too -- actually, understanding the power of our agency, the power we have as people and the power we have, particularly if you're an athlete that happens to have these gifts and abilities. Realize that it's only going to be for a short period of time and realize that there's a lot that can be done with your talents; a lot more than most people actually realize.

Until next time. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. I'm Rob Richardson.

JAMES
I'm James Keys…

AMESHIA
…and I'm Ameshia Cross.

ROB
We'll see you next time.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]