“I don't think innovation is some end product. I think the end product is the example -- a specific moment in time. If five years ago, who had judged LISNR or myself for what it was at that point, you could have an opinion versus today. Well how did it get from there to there? Well we never stopped the process. Inside the company, we are in the process of doing something. And it is a continuing process. When we see opportunities, we go after it. So if we're in the process of transmitting data better, fast and more reliable, if we see an opportunity in payments to do it at a premium, that's how we become that.” -- Rodney Williams

----------

ROB
Welcome to Disruption Now. I'm your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. I am honored to have Rodney Williams on from LISNR. Rodney likes to say, “Ordinary is the enemy of entrepreneurs,” and he is anything but ordinary.

He's a former Division 1 athlete, a former aspiring rapper -- something I learned. Very interesting. We're going to talk about that. But now he's an entrepreneur, leading a $30 million business-plus. It's called “LISNR.” And LISNR uses inaudible sound to transmit data. He wants to change the world by connecting the world. It's an honor to have him on the show. -- Rodney, welcome, brother. How are you doing?

RODNEY
Doing great. Thank you for having me.

ROB
Yeah. We were just talking off-camera. You move really, really fast in life so much so, you're here because you lost your license. How did that happen? [Laughter]

RODNEY
Indirectly, I think. It’s good to be here so I can actually go get a new license. But I actually lost it in route to here so… It's just moving. Fortunately, you got to have multiple identifications which I did. I also have my passport.

ROB
That’s good. That’s good. But you grew up in Baltimore, right?

RODNEY
Yes.

ROB
Baltimore is an area that is struggling a lot in some areas. What do you see from that area in terms of opportunities? You’re an innovator and you care about trying to transform communities. Just in general, what does that experience growing up in Baltimore do to inform your perspective and what do you think we need to do in communities like Baltimore in order to make sure people have more opportunities?

RODNEY
You know when I moved to Cincinnati, I actually thought there were probably more things that were similar about Baltimore -- Cincinnati even different.

ROB
Yeah, I agree.

RODNEY
I think they're very relatable. I mean with that said, I grew up in a, what you would think, pretty modest environment.

ROB
Okay, you grew up pretty middle class.

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
Okay.

RODNEY
I did happen to go to a private school. I was the youngest of six. All my brothers didn't get to go to a private school so there's a little bit more urban in I.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
But I think I saw a lot of different things. I mean when you grow up in Baltimore, you see crime, you see people not living up to their potential or their dreams but then you also see glimpses of opportunity.

ROB
Right. There's brilliant people everywhere. It’s just a matter of thinking opportunity and they see the light bulb.

RODNEY
Exactly. I mean the person that was always in the vision was Reginald Lewis -- you know, a big Baltimore… and actually the first black billionaire from my neighborhood.

ROB
He’s also a member of Kappa Alpha Psi -- my fraternity. Sorry, I had to put it out there. Go ahead.

RODNEY
I don't know where else but I know in Baltimore, that's a book that we read. It’s a story that's told. It's not told in every community.

ROB
No, it's not.

RODNEY
But as a kid, when I heard that, it was pretty powerful.

ROB
So what did you want to be when you grew up and what do you want to be now?

RODNEY
I think I've always wanted to be a CEO. You know, when I started to see different people in business, the people that had the biggest impact were the people that ran biggest business and I wanted to do everything I could to put myself in position to potentially run a big business.

ROB
Sure.

RODNEY
So that was always my goal. But at the end of the day, I think I always just wanted to be happy and have fun. I'm a pretty light-hearted person. I don't take much too serious until I do and then I try to be relentless at it. That's the same me since the beginning.

ROB
Are you having fun now?

RODNEY
Always. I never really stopped having fun. I never really stopped having fun. I don't think I'm going to ever stop having fun.

ROB
Well that's good.

RODNEY
I think that's important -- to hold on to that.

ROB
Yeah. You’re still telling you want to be a CEO. You are a CEO. That's what you want to do going forward. What impact do you want to have? So what do you say is your “Why?” What’s your “Why”? What’s your essential purpose for doing all this? I mean I'm sure you want to make money but I don't think that's your only driving force.
RODNEY
Yeah. It's actually not even important. I think the money is probably the last thing that's important to me. I think the impact is most important. I think the influence is most important. And then I want to ultimately inspire. Those are the things that are important to me.

You know, at 24 years old, I moved to Cincinnati. I bought a house. I bought a BMW. At that point, I had reached what I was… I was comfortable.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
Right? I'm a pretty simple guy. You know what I mean? I don't really need much more than that. But what drove me to continue to be better or think bigger was the impact that I felt my mind could have in the world. And more importantly, that story needed to be told and people needed to see it. That was what was important to me.

ROB
I want to come to a little bit more of your background later and particularly talk about some things with your brother because I heard you mention about your brother running into some issues and your mama having to correct your rap career. [Laughter] But before we get there, I want to talk about… You said you were comfortable.

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
You were comfortable with P&G. Proctor and Gamble, big company here in Cincinnati, has a lot of brand you probably buy every single day. You had a very, very predictable path there. You knew where you were going -- very likely advancement. You probably could see your career path clearly defining. But you took this leap, and this was a leap. So why did you take that leap and how do you encourage others to take that leap because it maybe was easy for you to do but I like to just… Walk us through the process of taking that leap.

RODNEY
You know, I've answered this question so many different ways in different parts of my life and I think the way I describe it today is actually “evolution” or something that we need to teach each other. But it's a high level of emotional intelligence and something I didn't realize I was capable of until later.

P&G was just another example of myself going into an area where I may not be an expert but focusing, learning and trying to be the best that I can possibly be and not being scared -- be fearless, be relentless -- whether it was in sports, whether it was when I went to college. When I came to Cincinnati, it was the furthest west I had ever been. Literally, packed up in the car and drove in Ohio and start seeing Confederate flags.

ROB
Yes, you will see a lot of Confederate flags here.

RODNEY
But I was like, “You know what? I went to West Virginia. I did the same thing” -- an undergrad. For me, doing things that were rather uncomfortable but there was a huge opportunity is where I learned the most. At P&G, that's how I approached business. That's how I approached marketing. It became just part of my life.

So when I saw the opportunity to create a company or to build technology, which is now LISNR, for me, it was another example of that moment where you had to make a decision.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
And I think of my whole life. If I had become a better person because of those “Taking risk” decisions, why not?

ROB
Yeah. And this is a good transition to something you said. You talked about, “We have to understand how to learn.” What do you mean by that?

RODNEY
The most important asset is your ability to learn. If you can learn faster than a competitor, you can do things better. If you can learn a new skill, you can always figure out an income, right?

Learning is probably the epic center of success. And I don't think people talk about it or not. But learning how to learn is what I focus on. Sometimes people will, “Oh well, you're a marketer. How did you do tech? LISNR was an entertainment but now it's in mobile payments. Now it’s a fintech. Where’s your expertise?” And I think you're starting to look at me a little bit different.

Anyway, would you ever describe a supercomputer with words? You would call it a “supercomputer.” It's dynamic. It has capability to process then output and execute. I like to think of myself as something like that. And I think all humans are more like that than these one or two figure words or sentences that we try to describe ourselves.

ROB
Correct. So walk me through what you think are some good habits or routines to develop. And I say this because it's important to learn things. I'm going to quote Star Wars, you know, Yoda, “You have to unlearn what you learned.” We also know there's a lot of bad habits, routines people pick up that they've learned -- learned behavior that's horrible -- and then sometimes, they don't understand it or see it.

So what habits and routines did you help establish to get yourself into a practice of learning where you're challenging yourself versus holding yourself back because often, people are holding themselves back. You said earlier, “Lack of self-awareness” -- what bad habits, routines or environment you might have been in and the habits you learned from those. So how do you gear yourself towards always trying to aspire versus going the other direction?

RODNEY
I think the first thing you need to always do is flip the script or turn the mirror around. Look at the mirror. You have to develop and become an introspective thinker. And you need to always be looking at what you're doing that may be impacting the environment versus the opposite. Naturally, we're taught to say, “The environment does X to me.”

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
We need to say, “What I'm doing.” The reason why is that if you can be that self-aware, you can understand what you're good at, what you're bad at. Now if you understand what you're good and what you're bad at, the first thing you should learn are the things you're bad at.

I spend so much time doing things or learning things that I’m bad at. I'm already good at marketing -- telling the story, bringing the vision. I spend all my time doing everything else or I'm trying to learn it.

Number one, that's what you start. I think where you end is that you find your particular passion, whatever that may be. And your passion was probably more like books. It’s going to have chapters. Today, it may be music. Tomorrow may be sneakers. Tuesday, it may be automobiles. I don't know.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
But when you start to want to have a passion, want to build something, want to own something then you need to also apply that same logic. “I'm going to start a barber shop. I may be a good barber but barber shop is a business. That means I need to be relentless at learning everything else.”

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
And I think we don't do that enough. -- We don't do that enough. -- But that's how you create a successful business is by focusing on the things that you are bad at so that you can raise the bar and the things that you're good at will become natural.

ROB
Yeah. I actually like what you say when you talk about your passion being chapters in a book. I like to say there's a fundamental story and plot but it may be different chapters. I know what mine is. It's always been about expanding access and opportunities for people. I was in public service for a while and I explored politics and now I feel like I'm doing this. So I do think that's a great advice.

Let's talk a little more about self-awareness. Building a team is hard to do with a company, with anybody, with an organization. I like to say, “Self-awareness is sometimes defined as letting others wound you with the truth.” It’s not always about praise. It's about people giving you constructive critical advice that we sometimes need to hear. They are supporters. What was the last time someone wounded you with the truth and what was that truth?

RODNEY
I'm probably wounded with truth every day.

ROB
[Laughter] All right, give me something that's wounded you the most in the last year that just really touched you. Like, “Wow, I see that and I see how I need to either X grow, be better, learn” -- however you want to take that.

RODNEY
Yeah. I think, especially in how I work today, I’m probably... I'm actually an introvert -- extremely introverted. And in business, it's very simple, right? I give a lot of autonomy. You go off on your Island and get it done. That is as productive as possible. I’ve actually gotten real feedback at just about how my strengths can be more collaborative.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
I’m much more about, “Create the team and just give me the ball.”

ROB
[Laughter] “Quarterback, just throw me the ball every time. I'll get us a touchdown.”

RODNEY
That’s more my natural capability.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
It’s not even about everybody getting the ball. I can still be the best shooter but at the same time, there's an approach that empowers everyone better than necessarily “Just give me the ball.”

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
So that’s probably some of the most recent feedback that I have and it's just allowing me to take approach very, very differently.

ROB
So how did you pull back? I've had similar feedback, actually. What type of things did you do to make sure you were trying to make others feel empowered? I think what people don't understand is you're a natural person that feels like you can score the touchdown. The problem is you got a team and you can't always score the touchdown. Did you do anything to practice that empowerment to help others to pick up the ball more and not always trying to take touchdown?

RODNEY
I think the first thing was to listen. I was always listening. But when you listen in a collaborative sense, you're trying to help that person get to the same conclusion on their own versus telling them the conclusion.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
It’s almost like walking someone to a story… walking them through a story. You know, when you're a bull, it's time-consuming.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
But when you allow someone to walk to that story and get to that conclusion, even though it may take three times as long, that person is going to be more empowered to assist. That person is going to feel more entitled. It's going to be more ownership versus it being indirect. And when a company is growing, when the idea is growing, when the team is growing, you actually need more versions of yourself, not less version. So that's the part, right?
ROB
Right.

RODNEY
You can still be the bull but you actually have to create 10 bulls. You have to create 20, hundred 2000. What that means is that you're going to have varying stories that you need people to get to the conclusion and sometimes, you got to let them walk themselves.

ROB
Yeah. So let's talk about LISNR, what it is. We mentioned it earlier but I want… What is LISNR, how does it work and how do you see it applying in everyday language that people can understand here on the show?

RODNEY
Very simply, a seven-year-old company. We started off building a transport product. Basically, LISNR started as being a transport product where we were actually leveraging frequencies that you can't hear as a method to transport data.

Over the past seven years, what we have continued to do is add security, add reliability. And ideally, we always thought that this was a better way to pay open doors access things. When you think of everything, you use a key or your wallet or even your garage door opener. These are what we call “Short range transmission.”

What happened over the past three years is within that, adding a significant amount of security, it started to position itself as a better way to pay -- a really better way to pay. And today, we're more a payment product or a financial service product than anything else.

ROB
Okay.

RODNEY
And why that all happened, the way I can describe it, is that today, you use mobile wallets. 62% of mobile wallet transactions are coming from retailer branded mobile wallets. So think of your Starbucks. Think of what Kroger just launched. Think of Walmart, etc. But they're using a barcode. They’re using a QR code. So it's very like “Scan and Go” type of experience or “Scan and Transact.” Number one, there’s fraud concern with that. There's a fee structure that's not necessary favorable.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
LISNR is a true alternative to both of those scenarios where every tellers start to use sound -- LISNR. There are significant improvements in security but also--
ROB
Why is that? Because it is harder to hack sound than it is just going through someone’s--

RODNEY
No. To get from a technical standpoint, think of it as a… I mean Internet is a transport product, right? The way you secure when you transmit something over the Internet is you make it encrypted. You create keys. You tokenize it -- things like that.

Our transmission works very similar where we do have bi-directional capability and there's a token exchange. It is a full connected transmission. When you think about a QR code, it's one directional and it’s also static. I can take a picture of it. You can take a picture. We all can take a picture -- only had some risks.

ROB
Yeah, absolutely. So you had to be close ranged. It's not something you could… Like cryptocurrency wouldn't have any application to this or would it?

RODNEY
If cryptocurrency wanted to pay for something in store.

ROB
But they have to be close to what they're paying for, correct?

RODNEY
Exactly.

ROB
Okay, yes.

RODNEY
Exactly.

ROB
Okay, that makes sense.

RODNEY
Yeah. So right now, it’s positioned as a better mobile payment product. It's more secure than QR codes, more seamless. And then when you compare it to NFC or QR code… Actually, distance for us is inches or a few feet. So instead of tapping and scanning, imagine just click and pay on your phone.

ROB
Right. So it's another version of AirDrop by using sound in a way. Like, how you do AirDrop with your phone but to use inaudible sound.
RODNEY
It’s similar.

ROB
Okay.

RODNEY
It’s similar. We’re extremely excited about some of the customers that are launching this year. I mean it should do really well.

ROB
Well that's awesome. I want to talk a little bit about your earlier kind of background again with your brother and that experience. Sounds like you were close to your brother or still are close to your brother. He went through some challenges, it sounds like, with the legal system which, unfortunately, we all… At least, I can tell you, every black person I know has somebody close to them has had some run-in with the legal system. What did that experience do for you in terms of just in forming your background other than your mama said you can't be a rapper anymore? [Laughter] What else did that do to how you just think about things?

RODNEY
I think I fully understood the equalizer. And it wasn't just money. It’s a combination of money, influence and intelligence. And to be honest, my brother didn't fully exit his issues and to… I was post-college and a lot of it had a lot to do with my capability to go out and seek the legal assistance that would warrant early exit. And it was just that, right? Minus anything that he'd done, the reality is that if you do have capability and you're able to connect with certain parties…

ROB
Yeah, it would make things happen.

RODNEY
…you can make things happen.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
It's the good and the bad.

ROB
“It's the good and the bad.” You know, my passion still is… when I talk about empowering people, it’s--

People often ask how did I get into public service. I was electrical engineer background and then law and people say the two don't connect. I say, “Actually, they do.” At least in my mind they do because I want figure out how we build better systems, how we design better systems that lean towards equality versus how we can just depress people or limit opportunities; how we can have more job growth versus just people making more money. I'm all for people making money. But if the focus, particularly with automation, and where we're going is only about making profit all the time… You can have a scenario where you can make a lot of money and not have to hire hardly anybody to do it. And I think we have to look at the social equitable cost.

So long story, bearable, I mean I think systems are really important as you say. And it sounds like you have an understanding that your experience has… because of the opportunities you've had, you've been able to help people in other ways through your influence and through your connections. We wish more people have the access. And we know we have an inequitable system. I mean that's how I look at it.

RODNEY
I mean even today, I'm still completely scared. It's so easy to get stuck in that system and not know how to get out of it. It's not too difficult.

ROB
It's not difficult. It’s a very common story of brothers that go up far and get pulled down further.

Look, the advice from my father and a few other mentors, they said, “Look Rob, being black and being successful, you need to be productively paranoid in everything you do. It doesn't mean that you're--”

And I put “productive” before “paranoid” because if you're paranoid, you're paralyzed. You can't view things the same way that some others do. Other people can cut around the rules, maybe not follow the SEC guidelines, you do that, they come [knocks]… They come in to your door.

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
That’s how I look at it.

RODNEY
There’s a funny quote that I saw this morning. It was Will Smith on a social media page. He was telling his son, Jaden, now that he’s 21, he said, “Don’t break two or more laws at the same time.”

ROB
[Laughter] Good idea.

RODNEY
He said, “It exponentially increases your chance of going to jail for both.”

ROB
Yeah, very true.

RODNEY
And I'm sitting there, I was thinking about it. That's actually extremely important. One law is like speeding. But if you speed and you don't have a license--

ROB
Yeah. So go get your license today. [Laughter]

RODNEY
Back to the license.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
But the point is it was a good message and I think it's a message for everyone to take into context.

ROB
Yeah. And something I do, you know I kind of paint three lines, and being in politics probably made me this way. I tell people there's the perception line, there's the ethical line and then there's a legal line. You want to be all the way here to the left. If you have to keep questioning, “Is it legal? Is it legal? Is it legal,” try to not have those questions because if it's closed, it’s going to go the other way for you or it could. And why even take the chance?

So figure out how you can justify from the perception. If it was announced in the newspaper tomorrow, how could you talk about it? And could you talk about it in a way that's defensible? If you can't, don't do it. That's kind of my advice to people.

Have you ever failed? I've asked people this question and sometimes, I get some pushback. “You’re not as permanent unless you decide to stay in your situation.” So have you ever had a setback that was the eventual setup that provided more opportunities, a lesson that you learned from that? Can you think of something?

RODNEY
Every day.
ROB
Well give me your most potent examp… I'll give you mine very quickly. I have many but I'll tell you the one that sticks in my brain right now. I worked at a big law firm and the bar results were coming out. So this is very public exercise. It's like you announce who passed the exam and then you look on the computer to see if your name is on there.

I looked the first time, I said, “My name wasn't on there.” I said, “Wait. Wait. Got to be a mistake.” Looked again, I said, “Well maybe I missed it again.” Obviously, I did not pass.

I had to walk that day when everybody was celebrating. And it was crushing because I've been working my whole career to get to that point. So it was hard. But I went on and got like the second highest score the next time around. But it was really, really hard having to go through it. Luckily, I've had other failures in my life so it didn’t--

But a lot of people once they failed once, it’s like… I think because it gets in your brain. Statistics show that basically most people don't pass it ever the second or third time, not that they don't have the ability, it's just overcoming that failure is hard for people, right?

I want you to think about a moment that really just kind of challenged and made you kind of just say like, “Wow” and you had to step back and reevaluate what you were doing.

RODNEY
Yeah. I'm all about balance and unfortunately, I had to learn this. So if we do something great on the team, I don't necessarily come and say high-five. And then when you do something bad, I don't necessarily come and say you did something bad. It’s about even kill. Like, let’s create balance. That's how you hold on to your happiness; how you hold on to your energy.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
Right? So yeah, when things go right, I expected it. Nothing to celebrate. When things go bad, I need to fix something to learn something. I also expected it.

ROB
So give me something you expected and it happened. I can say this from my own experience -- another one. I ran for treasurer. I thought when I ran for mayor, there was a… I never wanted to admit it but I thought there was a shot I was going to win that race. When I ran for treasurer though and I was the nominee and I got through that and I beat my opponent every single time, I was beating him backwards and forwards--

And I looked at the history in Ohio. Ohio always goes the opposite direction when the presidential race happened without fail. First time in history, it goes the other direction, right?

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
I had my win number. When I thought I hit that win number, somehow he got more than that.
I can tell you for myself, I didn't expect that. And I’m like, “I'm fine.” I mean nobody died or anything. But I did reevaluate even though I expected it as a possibility. Was there a time when you expected something but it was worse than you expected? That's what I like to talk about. Did that ever happen ever in your life?

RODNEY
I would tell you that's all the time.

ROB
No, but give--

RODNEY
But I can give you two stories.

ROB
Give me a story.

RODNEY
I’ll just give you two stories.

ROB
There you go.

RODNEY
At end of the day, I ran track in college. I was an invited walk-on. I made the track team in West Virginia University. I was extremely excited going into outdoor season, title nine, cut the track team. I also was coming off a senior when I tore my meniscus, tore my hamstring. I was an athlete, headed to do a lot of things and I made my comeback. So I make my comeback and now the team was cut. So yeah, I mean you get devastated a bit.

But I remember thinking to myself, “Am I going to transfer? I still got free books, still got a little scholarship or could I potentially just use this opportunity to become the best student I possibly could become?” And I said, “All right, well if I'm giving up sports, I'm going to add another degree,” and that's exactly what I did. You have to look at the opportunity in failure because we miss it. I think we train ourselves to miss it.

ROB
I agree.

RODNEY
But I look at LISNR. This has been almost eight years of building. I've gone through it all. I've raised money. I've had bad team members. I've had issues with boards. I've had investors. It’s not failure or success. People look at the headlines and I say, “Listen, as long as this thing is continuing to grow, I'm happy.”

But more importantly, there's a lot of learnings that I learned and opportunity that has been established based on what I did. And probably the best thing that I've done with that is I co-found another company called “SoLo.” What that has become is a speedboat because it's dodging everything that I had to learn.

ROB
What do you mean by that -- “Dodging everything you had to learn?” I mean in particular, I really want to talk about that “bad team member” or “team members.” I only say that because the most time leaders learn the most about themselves is about the negative or harder interactions they have with people, not only that person but yourself and what you maybe saw wrong in that person or how you might have reacted in those situations.

Talk about that lesson to the extent you're comfortable or can that’s not private information. I only say because people need to know that Rodney Williams is… You have a lot of talents but you're not Superman. You've had struggles to get here and you've had to embrace those struggles to become better. I think people hearing that will understand they can do it, too.

RODNEY
We started this conversation off with the ability to learn. I mean I think that, honestly, at the end of the day, is probably why I still am able to attract investors. I do not approach investors as I know it all. I do approach the investors that I will be relentless at trying to know it all. You know what I mean?

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
I know I got to learn from you. I need to learn from competitors. I need to learn from the market. I need to learn myself. That's really important. I think team… I mean building the team to the success of your business or your organization is so incredible. It’s so important. I would say that, overall, I learned so much with how to build the right team for a particular outcome.

ROB
Right. What did you learn about yourself that you didn't know building that team?

RODNEY
I couldn't be Deion Sanders…

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
…at the end of the day, right? It's great to have all the headlines and being in the paper -- all of these different things -- but if that's not beneficial to the team, I'm inherently slowing down something.

ROB
Wow.

RODNEY
I had to learn it.

ROB
But was probably hard to learn. Yeah, I get that.

RODNEY
But when you look at me today, I'm not the CEO of LISNR. I'm the commercial officer. The other company has its own CEO. It's not that I can't be the CEO or am the CEO, it’s that I can probably influence a bigger impact by empowering other people.

ROB
Wow. I want to talk a little more about LISNR. Google, obviously, is trying to transmit sound, too. And I heard you say in the interview that Google is just trying to empower the Android where LISNR is trying to connect everyone.

Here’s my challenge to that… or at least my question, I should say, because there's already this kind of cold wars going on here in Silicon Valley. You know, Apple kicked off Facebook on some of its stuff and I'm sure there's future to come with Google trying to absorb more apps. Why wouldn't they just try to move your technology off of there just so they can just do their own? How do you prevent that given that a lot of people's access is through the Apple than Android and a few others? How do you see that? Is that a hindrance? How do you maneuver that?

RODNEY
I think the number one I always say, the day that happens, I guess we're a billion dollar company because if we're a billion dollar threat, we’re a billion dollar company.

ROB
Makes sense.

RODNEY
If that's the case then there's a will and there's a way. Now my approach to that particular challenge, overall, is the risk of handset manufacturers -- Google, potentially. I think that our approach is to empower our clients and strategic value. So when we talk about some of the people that are backing us -- I mean I talked about Intel backing us, Synchrony Financial -- all of a sudden, when you start aligning yourself with much bigger organizations, it’s a much different conversation that even Google has to have.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
So long story short, I think when you're doing something disruptive, yes, there's always a risk, that someone may want to limit that if you're disrupting something, and we have a lot of that. I think for us, we got to continue to drive usage, drive opportunity. And I do know the day that that is a conversation amongst Google or Apple's leadership, it's a great day.

ROB
Right. So you say innovation is not the end product but the love of the process. Talk to me about what that means.

RODNEY
It’s that balance. Innovation is a combination of processes and it's about learning and creating new processes around that learning capability and it's about seeing an opportunity. I don't think innovation is some end product. I think the end product is the example -- a specific moment in time.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
Right? If five years ago, who had judged LISNR or myself for what it was at that point, you could have an opinion versus today. Well how did it get from there to there? Well we never stopped the process. Inside the company, we are in the process of doing something.

ROB
Absolutely.

RODNEY
Right? And it is a continuing process. When we see opportunities, we go after it. So if we're in the process of transmitting data better, fast and more reliable, if we see an opportunity in payments to do it at a premium, that's how we become that. That’s how it’s obvious to us.

ROB
Right. Yeah, makes sense.

RODNEY
But we could have had our blinders on and just become an ad tech company.

ROB
Sure, which lots of people do.

RODNEY
Which a lot of people do.

ROB
You know, I define innovation as a rebellion against the status quo -- not accepting things as they are and being willing to fight for a better future or make things better. And often, when people lose that spirit or organizations lose that spirit, they die like you said.

I think Kodak is the prime example I always go to. They literally invented the technology of Instagram and didn't want to use it because they were afraid, which they were right, that it was going to get rid of their print media. They didn't use it and they died because of it.

I think your perspective of always having that, “How can we learn? How can we be better? How can we disrupt what we've already done” is why I'm sure your company is going to continue to be successful.

I want to have a few wrap-up questions here. So you have a committee of three. That can be your advisors for whatever you want -- living, business, spiritual, physical, whatever you want to see advice. Who are those three people and why?

RODNEY
Those three people?

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
Malcolm X.

ROB
Okay. So am I.

RODNEY
Clark Kent.

ROB
Okay.

RODNEY
And Iron Man.

ROB
All right, now break those down for me.

RODNEY
I mean you didn’t give me dead or alive or true or not.

ROB
I said “Living or dead” but I like the fact that you can just go with those. Those were what came to you. Go.

RODNEY
I've always said I'm more Malcolm X than Martin Luther.

ROB
Okay. Tell me why.

RODNEY
I think I see things very, very clearly and I attack it when I need to. I never waited for my turn. I'm not in the process of even appeasing anybody's opinion. So it's a lot of that energy that was inspiring to me. It's also how I approach business. It's also how I approach doing the right thing. To me, it's the right thing and then it's the wrong thing. That's it.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
And I think as people, we should be more that aggressive. We should be more that blunt, I think.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
You know, if someone doesn't like it, I think it’s okay. I don't expect people to be the same. I don't expect everyone to understand where I come from. You shouldn’t. You've never been there.

ROB
Right.

RODNEY
Right? But I'm a living example of it and I'm here now so you got to accept it.

ROB
That's great. Clark Kent -- tell me that one.

RODNEY
You know, there’s nothing more empowering than an alien from outer space saving humankind, right -- someone that probably wouldn't be accepted if they knew where he was from. But he put on a mask each and every day and all of a sudden, he's the biggest hero. There's enough metaphors in that statement alone.

ROB
Yeah.

RODNEY
That’s why I would want to have him in my circle.

ROB
That's awesome. Iron Man.

RODNEY
I think Iron Man is… You know, Tony Stark, that's probably me every day.

ROB
[Laughter] Oh we can take that in a lot of directions. I got to go to one of your parties. But no, that’s good to hear, okay.

RODNEY
Yeah. I mean that is a very animated dramatic version of me. I am a fun person, I like to think. I think I can outdrink anyone. But at the end the day, I also think I can outwork you. I think I’m kind of stuck because I’m not smart--

ROB
You got to come back for the Black Bourbon Society. It’s a group that's coming here in Cincinnati. That's a big group -- “The Black Bourbon Society.” We’re going to work with them on September 14th. So if you like drink… Go ahead. [Laughter]

RODNEY
Yeah. What he does, I think he’s confident up to work at something. Each and every movie is an example of him stopping for a moment, digging really deep in something and getting it done when they needed it to get done. And that’s what I've always done whether it was family problems, whether it was issues, whether it was money problems, whether it was LISNR problems -- whatever we got to get done. Stop with the excuses. Just get it done and have fun while doing it. Smile while doing it. It's a pleasure.

ROB
Wow. Two more questions. What important truth do you hold that very few people agree with you on?

RODNEY
Truth that I hold that--

ROB
That a lot people just might not agree with you -- whatever it is. It’s something that you believe in. Because you're the type of person as you described -- you state what you believe in. Malcolm X had a lot of those beliefs.

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
So tell me Malcolm, what's yours?

RODNEY
I think “Success is taken.” A lot of people don't agree with that. You know, “It’s earned. It’s mutual beneficial. It's all types of ways.” I disagree. I think everything that I've ever accomplished, I took. I saw the opportunity and I took it. They call them “Sharks.” They're just takers. And I think we all work for sharks or takers. I think “Taker” is a better word.

ROB
No, I think it's more accurate. I think it was A. Philip Randolph who said in the table feast to life, “You only get what you take. You only keep what you can hold. You can't keep or take anything unless you're organized, period.”

RODNEY
Most people, that just upsets them. The people that work--

ROB
Especially as a black man saying, “I want to take,” some people, they're like, “Wait. What?” [Laughter] “You can't say that, Rodney. Do not repeat that again.”

RODNEY
Yeah.

ROB
I'm sure you've got an advice, “You should not say you have to take.”
RODNEY
Oh 100%.

RODNEY
But you say it anyway. I love it. Final question. You have a billboard or Google ad, whatever, that symbolizes or states what you believe or your theme in life. What does it say and why do you say that?

RODNEY
Literally, every social media channel under my name says, “I'm a maven for everything extraordinary.” That means a lot of things. But for me, what it means is about being relentless and passion… at the things in the shadow or the unforgotten or the person doesn't get to tell the story or the idea that’s farfetched or the… And what that is about is because I found the most ROI by focusing there, not in the… You know, I could have just stayed at P&G. I could have just got the right job because I've done all the things that I was supposed to do.

I remember in business clubs, you know, “Join MLT and do this.” You know these paths so I was like, “For what?” “You’re going to go to Howard? Howard Business School is not the type of business school you're going to go to. You can get in Cornell. You can go to NYU. You can go to Harvard.” And I said, “For what?”

ROB
[Laughter] It’s awesome. Howard is a great school, by the way, and great for the connections, too.

RODNEY
Yeah. And you got to understand, I think if you can't absorb a certain amount of energy -- call it Malcolm X, call it Clark Kent -- you need to go to places to absorb that. I didn't need to go to another place to learn more how to wear a mask.

ROB
No. That's awesome. What's the second one?

RODNEY
The second one, you know, I think when it's all said and done and you’re reading my book, I mean this is how it should end. Her quote was, “My mission in life is not merely to survive but to thrive. Do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor and some style.”

ROB
That's a great way to end. Well I appreciate you coming on the show, Rodney.

RODNEY
Awesome.

ROB
It was great, yeah.

RODNEY
Thank you.

ROB
Thank you.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]