ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Global Entrepreneurship Week. I am Rob Richardson, host of Disruption Now and founder of Disruption Now Media. It is my honor here to have this esteemed panel with you. With me is Dr. Whitney Gaskins from the University of Cincinnati. -- Notice how I said “The” because I’m from University of Cincinnati. I’m going to claim Cincinnati like that. And then we have Anne Richie with The Mezzanine Fund. We also have Aja Hardy with the gBETA Cleveland Accelerator program. We also have Carlton Collins with Engines That Work.

We’re going to have a great discussion about what the American dream means, how we define it and how we can really make the American dream more of a reality for more Americans. That’s the conversation we want to have with you today.

We’re honored to have such an esteemed panel from all around this great state of Ohio. Well some people don’t claim all the way the state of Ohio but they’re in Ohio so we’re going to claim them. -- I’m not calling on any names, Aja, but it is what it is.

I think about the American dream for a minute. I just kind of looked up the definition and it’s essentially saying, “Equal opportunity for anyone to be able to achieve their highest potential.” That’s what the American dream is. But I think no one here is under any illusion that the American dream has not been an equal access of opportunity for people in America. Certainly, it hasn’t been historically true.

Let’s start with how you would define the “American dream” internally. Do you agree with that definition or do you have a different definition? And we can start with Whitney.

WHITNEY GASKINS
Yeah, I actually do agree with the definition. I might add to it. But I think at its foundation, it would be the American dream. Now is it a dream that’s a reality or even achievable for all people? I don’t think so. I think we have too many barriers in place for people, especially when I look at black and brown people, to achieve it.

The only thing I could honestly add would be maybe a sentence about being able to live authentically as well. So not only getting to a certain living success, in whatever that means for you, but also in that success being your authentic self.

ROB
Aja, we had a conversation off-camera -- you, myself and Carlton -- about the black college experience and what that does, I think, to actually further encourage the true possibility of the American dream by getting rid of some of the things that America teaches you to be, either by accident or by intention or just by the system as how it really works.

Talk to what the American dream has meant to you, personally in your experience, and how you feel about it.
AJA HARDY
Yeah, I can start off. I agree with the definition of the American dream and the addition of authenticity. I think I shared with the team before that my mom is an educator and has been for quite a while.

When I decided to go to an HBCU, I had already like the second half of Harvard and Princeton filled and I decided that I wanted to go to, which I ended up going to, Xavier in Louisiana. And my mom, we really had a very contentious conversation about me going to an HBCU especially since I lived across the street from University of Chicago which is, obviously, a well-known institution. And her response to me, saying, “Hey, I want to do this. I want to be with my people,” she was going, “That's not the real world.”

ROB
Which is the response… Aja, sorry to interrupt you. But that’s the response of a lot of people. They’re saying, “Well why would you go into an environment where it's not going to be that way? You're going to be an environment where you're not going to be the majority. It’s going to be hostile.” But what did your experience show you though?

AJA
My experience showed me that… I felt a sense of self when I got there. To temper some background, I’m from Chicago. And those who really… that are known of the educational system in Chicago, we have a lottery system as well as an [AKI - 04:15] system, what we call “Accelerated Kid” system. So I was one of those. I started high school when I was in seventh grade. I always have particularly been one of those individuals who was in… I was one of few, if not the only, in the classroom setting.

So I didn't quite understand why my mother would want me to continue that path going in to my secondary education in terms of colleges concerning universities. You know, you could go that path and I could have went to a private institution in that sense of the word but I did a complete 360, obviously. I started with me and particularly--

I got to see people that look like me. And also, specifically for me, I got to see people who challenged me because… I mean though you're accelerated and all that good stuff, the terms that they gave you when I was in Chicago, when I got to Xavier, there were other people who were as smart or if not smarter than me and I really had to work.

And then Xavier in itself was such a thriving institution. We did not like the vocabulary test every week but I can tell you that majority of us, we just speak like this now. And I’ve heard, like in other places that I’ve… in my employment, I’ve heard people say, “Well we get it. We know you're educated. You don't have to use such big words.” But that's because of Xavier. Xavier has us doing re--

I can tell you what a peon is. I can tell you what an [econ clot - 05:51] is because Xavier made us do that. It really was one of those thriving environments. And I value my time there.
ROB
But there's something to be said about being around people that raise your expectations. Your mother's response to you is probably the response I would have said 20 years ago, too, and the response that we are conditioned to accept. It is something that we're conditioned to accept.

And you got a better environment because you're in an environment where people expected more of you versus an environment where people expected the worst of you which is the environment that… Whether we say it or not, that's the environment we're actually in.

I want to go to Carlton in a minute but there's one point I want to make. I just got through re-reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X and there was one point that actually--

My story reminded me of Malcolm X, just this one point, when a teacher… His eighth grade… It happened to me in eighth grade, too. He told his eighth grade teacher that he wanted to go to college and be a lawyer which if anybody that's listened to and read him, he would have made a phenomenal lawyer. He had just that natural skill set. Of course, that person killed his dream. Said, “You need to be pragmatic.” He didn't focus on school anymore and took a very different route. Obviously, he still did great things. My counselor told me something very similar.

When you're used to being underestimated, you can sometimes rise above it. But that's not always the best for you. And being in an environment where you're being uplifted does help you achieve the American dream better, as you know, which is no accident.

I can say this, Carlton, that people that go to Morehouse, Spelman and some of these HBCUs tend to do better not because they're smarter but just because they learn to work together and they learn to challenge each other and push each other. What do you think that, Carlton, will… How can we grow from that and learn how to achieve the American dream a little bit better?

CARLTON COLLINS
I think it's kind of twofold. There's two things that were ingrained in us from the moment we hit the campus. One was that iron sharpens iron. Nobody cares about your accolades before you got here because the person next to you or to the left and to the right, they were valedictorian or star player -- you know what I mean -- in their community, their high school, their city.

And then the other thing was, “I got my brother’s back,” right? They wake us up at, I don't know, four o'clock in the morning and we get the history of campus. They give us a tour. They literally drag us out of bed. And there's that conversation about, “We are here together. We are going to survive and thrive here at this HBCU and we're going to get across that stage as a unit.” And that being instilled in us from the onset -- that's a new student orientation -- that becomes a thing for us where--

And then I took a very, very deliberate approach in understanding that some of these guys who say they want to get these things done, they're actually going to go off and accomplish them. So I need to have a network. And they also say you pay for the name of the network when you go to HBCU.

It’s really important that as we look at the American dream and as we look at what are those things… what are those critical elements when we're talking about the American dream, we have to understand that there are various access points. There's various ways to get to the American dream. And there's also a number of ways that the American dream can be subverted. And there isn't that equity piece… I love the words of authenticity around it.

The only thing I’ll add to the definition is, truly, that there has to be an understanding that it's not equitable application in terms of the pathway to achieve it. We have to be able to have an intentional conversation about what does that look like for different folks and then also understanding--

We have an amazing opportunity, I think right now in the world and what it looks like, to be able to just radically redefine what the world looks like. And I think we get an opportunity to redefine what that American dream can truly be for all Americans kind of as we press forward into this brave new world because nobody knows what 2021 looks like.

ROB
Oh yeah. Preach, brother. Preach. We don't know what next week is going to look like.

CARLTON
For sure.

ROB
That's neither here nor there. I’m not going to go too far down that rabbit hole. [Laughter]

Anne, when you think about where we are here, how do we… First of all, do you agree with the definition and do you have anything to add to the definition? In addition to that, what needs to be done now on the ground, practically, for the black community, internally, and what do we need to do, externally, to get more partners to move towards a real place of equity, not just talk?

Okay, you said “Black lives matter.” Congratulations. I’ll give you a standing ovation -- kind of a really slow clap. Now next, what are we going to do to actually make the American dream more of a reality for the black community?

ANNE RICHIE
That's a lot. I’ll start with the definition. I would say I agree with the definition. For me, the addition would be “Trust” because if you don't really trust that the dream could be a reality then it really can't be your reality. -- I hope that's not too heady.

And then also “Choice,” I think. And with choice comes a security that you can make choices. You know, things like health insurance and all that kind of stuff that we worry about, it inhibits our choices.

So to really realize the dream, you have to have that. I think you have to have the trust, the security and the ability to choose what your version of the American dream is.

I have to sneak in my HBCU story because I did not go to an HB--

ROB
Okay. So you have another HBC… Oh you have a story, too.

ANNE
Here’s my story. I’m the youngest so I was always a disrupter. I’m the youngest of four and we were an Ivy League family -- different generation. My sister and brother went to Dartmouth. My other sister went to Cornell. Naturally, that's where I was supposed to end up. But when I found out that the Ivy League was really a sports league… That's what it started from. You can't join in. You can't get out. It's set from the beginning, and that they were all male schools. I was like, “That doesn't work for me.”

So I went to Smith which is, in my version, the women's version of an Ivy League. And I thought I had… I mean I had a great experience. I loved it. And I thought I had my choice. I had my trust. And it was a great experience for me.

And then I tried to push my daughter there. She was like, “No” -- having no part of it. And she ended up at Spelman. The day I drove her in to move her in to Spelman was the day my dream of Smith kind of got crushed a little bit because you layer on the “All women” thing with the sisterhood of an HBCU or an all-women's HBCU… blew my mind.

I mean it was seven in the morning. It was hot as ever. We had to move… And they're playing music and there's people dancing and they're welcoming you and it was just like… It wasn't until that point that I realized the value of an HBCU because Smith gave me so much of that but not the last piece.

ROB
Yeah. I mean they can't give that to you. That's not something that can be provided by Smith.

ANNE
Can’t do it. But before that experience, I was totally happy with my Smith experience because it fed that “woman” part. But it could not get that last part. So I am a total complete convert now. But it wasn't an option for me because it wasn't in our family and it wasn't in our… You know, I just didn't know a lot of people. So I’m a convert.

I would say, to the last part of your question, I think we need total disruption at this point, and I mean total--

ROB
Amen to that. You know, Disruption Now so disrupt away. Go ahead. Okay.

ANNE
Exactly. I’m a disruptive person by nature. We need to seek data that is not the data that someone else tells us we should be looking at but what we know we should be looking at. So the concept of lumping minorities in one group, I don't want to read any more reports about minorities. First of all, we're not minorities. Nobody is a minority, right?

ROB
Right.

ANNE
Secondly, I think once we seek that data, we need to follow it. And there's no time to… I don't feel we have the time to convert people or to suck bias out. I think we just need to get the data we need and go with it and not to be too radical or too separatist. It will take too long to convince other people that we can outperform and we can out-succeed. [Inaudible - 16:08]. Get the data, show it and go with what we know.

ROB
Well I think that's a great point in that there's nothing… I say “Black” and “Brown.” I specifically say “Black” and I say it for a reason. And there are people that say, “Well…” And I think we've been hesitant to say things like, “We're including the black community.” And that has also held us back as you said.

I’m going to give my inner Malcom X here because that's new on my brain. But the point is making sure that we're intentional and not… Because if we don't, I say if we do not say and include “Black,” we are excluded. So it's not about being exclusive. It's about making sure we're included because I’m sure, we can go get the data and we can show it.

And we're not being excluded because we don't have the ability. We're being excluded for whatever reason. We have to make sure that we are included. And that's the reason why we say it.

And you look at every other community… I have a lot of background within the union movement and I can tell you this: The Irish community, the Italian community, they don't apologize for organizing and helping each other. They don't apologize for investing in each other. They do it and no one questions them. But when African-Americans do it… And even ourselves. We look at ourselves, “Well we got to make sure we're not doing that.”

And I think for us to achieve the American dream, we have to, as you say, be comfortable making others uncomfortable, being uncomfortable and disrupting this narrative and this pattern and this construct. -- Carlton.

ANNE
Oh I have one quick [inaudible - 17:40].

ROB
Oh go ahead, Anne.

ANNE
Just one [inaudible - 17:42]. If you look at how much further women have gone because the data was clearly about women… And now when we look for data and empirical evidence that we outperform, we don't have it because it was never measured just for black people. That’s the [inaudible - 18:02] I want.

ROB
Yeah.

AJA
Yeah.

CARLTON
[Inaudible - 18:02].

AJA
White women, yeah.

CARLTON
I think, Anne, you started kind of going down this road. You mentioned it and you said this idea that we're a monolith, right? And we heard it in terms of like the context of HBCUs. Every socioeconomic status, every type of experience, we had--

One of my closest friends, they still do farming and got into agribusiness. There’s a wealth of experiences that come through HBCU. But more importantly, when we're talking about data, when we're talking about the analysis of the black community, we have to challenge this ongoing trope in which--

You know, we're caricatures of ourselves where it has roots and entertainment and all of that piece. But I think it is transitioned to all industries, in all fields of endeavor, where we're looked at as if we can't be different, like our individualized experiences can't create its own mosaic, our own tapestry and specialties that we fit in. We have these different lenses. And I think it's just really, really important to just note that, right?

ROB
Yeah.

CARLTON
And for all of us who are in these spaces, who get in these spaces who are black, push back on that narrative.

ROB
Exactly. You mean like, we don't have to all be athletes. We don't have to all be entrepreneurs--

CARLTON
Right.

ROB
Or not to be entrepreneurs. They don't see us as entrepreneurs. They see us as either athletes, entertainers.

Now I happen to be 6'5 and I’m in pretty good shape. But I’ll say this, everywhere I go --everywhere I go -- everywhere I go at every single moment, it's, “Where did you play basketball? Who did you play basketball for?” And when I tell them I didn't, some people are like, “No, that can't be true.” Like, “Are you sure?” I’ve gotten pushed back.

AJA
[Inaudible - 20:14].

ROB
Yeah. [Laughter] Like, “I’m pretty sure I didn't.” I’m just saying. And then when I tell them I actually I graduated engineering, law, this other stuff, they said, “Oh okay” and the puzzle goes over their face.

AJA
They're like, “What a waste.” They’re like, “Oh you should have played basketball.” [Laughter] [Indiscernible - 20:29].

CARLTON
Right. “You could have made the league for sure,” right?

ROB
Exactly.

AJA
I think everybody added to the definition and I didn't so I feel left out. So I think to add to the definition, as we were talking about authenticity, racial equity and inclusion, the idea of it having some empirical data behind it, real world evidence that marks with us, I would add the other piece is that it should not be fashioned in a capitalistic society format. And what I mean by that is that… Well if I had to think about how Chicago came to be and everything--

I remember when I was leaving in ’96-’97, the first thing that they shut down when they cut funding for us, for just Chicago in general, was the trade schools. And I knew so many people in my neighborhood, they came to those trade schools that ended up being like union electricians. My cousin to this day is a union electrician. He's younger than me. And it’s now… you know, it's a coveted role.

But to your point about, if you will, racial communities staying together and being together, I mean we're… Like Chicago is the epitome of that if you wanted to go through our politics and everything. That was the first thing that they cut was the trade schools because essentially, so many of us were actually becoming middle class and upper middle class off of that trade school situation. And college isn't for everyone.

ROB
No.

AJA
I am not at all that person as like, “You got to go to this and this is your path to it.”

ROB
Especially nowadays, yeah, it's very different.

AJA
Right, especially nowadays. And my mom, being an educator, she went into it because, partially, her counselor told her that she should either go into domestics like my grandmother at that time or she should be a nurse or a teacher, that that was her only option. And she was one of the first classes to integrate Loyola University in Chicago and she was still told that.

My mother saw fit to become a teacher because she wanted to help and make sure that people didn't get the same type of ill advice that she did. But in that sense of the word of her kind of going through that, you just imagine how many people were steered incorrectly.

And then from that, bringing it back to that conversation earlier on, I had to think about why was I being told I couldn't do certain things or why was there some hesitance or even that, like I said, combatants. And it's really truly because my mom had these generational pains that had happened to her and that had shaped her idea of what she could and couldn't be.

And I had the forthright and blessing to physically help change that for her. She went out of the country with me first, ever in her life, because she was told that she shouldn't go out of the country and that black people weren't necessarily, like her, accepted. She went out of the country with me and won't stop talking about it. And I make a sense to take her out of the country every year if I can because I’m showing her the world and show that I could attain at that time because of the fact that she wouldn't allow people to hold me back when I was growing up.

ROB
And that's great. So we've talked about the American dream in terms of understanding how we got to the situation in viewing the American dream. We've talked about how we disrupt the narratives.

And along those lines, in disrupting the narratives, when the majority population thinks about the American dream, it's very idealized. Like, “Everybody can do it. It's there. And if you don't achieve it, there is something wrong with you.” That's kind of the reasoning by default.

How important… And this goes to anybody. Do you feel, as we talk about the American dream, that we also put history into the context of the American dream because we know it's been limited for many, as you discussed there, Aja.

But everybody else, I kind of want to have your input about the importance of history in constructing the narrative and making it possible that the American dream is expanded to more people and provides more opportunities.

WHITNEY
I think erasing history is literally the tool of oppression because it helps people feel like, “Oh there is something wrong with me” because the stories that weren't told of how people actually created these systems helps people buy into a system that wasn't built for them. You have to understand that you were never part of the system. It's not broken. It works perfectly. You were never supposed to be included. Don't forget, when the constitution was written, you weren't even considered a whole person.

I think that people love to conveniently erase history because without us knowing where we came from, we forget about where we can actually go. Think of all of the wonderful things that black people have achieved. We are more than slavery. We were whole nations and still our whole nations, in other countries, it's a beautiful history.

The United States, I think, has followed suit… even now, especially when I think about 2020, with our current president following exactly how the Nazi party did -- using the news outlets to call fake news. The fact that people say “fake news,” and it's part of our regular vocabulary, is concerning because it's also another form of erasing history.

I would love to talk more deeply just about that. But we're seeing it in action. Everything that's happening right now, we've seen before and we can see how it's destructive.

And then also how it really changes people's mindset, that they can only think of despair. They don't see the prosperous side of everything because we've written it in that picture, in that lens. We can be prosperous once we know that we've done it before.

Our people -- and I’m speaking about black people, specifically -- we are excellent. And it really does drive me crazy when I hear about how all we think about are obstacles. We have nothing but obstacles, I will say, when we think about how the United States is set up. But we're much more than that.

ROB
And yet with the obstacles --

WHITNEY
It will come.

ROB
And yet, with the obstacles, we still rise and we still come to points where we… There's a saying that you don't judge a person by how far they've come but the obstacles that they had to overcome to get there. And you look at what has been achieved by black folks and black Americans, specifically. It is quite amazing.

And that's why I think it's important to know history, to know the painful part but to also know the progress that was made despite all the pain that happened, to let you know that as bad as it is now… It is bad and there are bad conditions in some places and I’m not underestimating any of that. But I can firmly say that it was worse and people were able to overcome and that should give us some sense of inspiration if we actually remember who we are and what we've been through. -- Aja, you look like you want to say something there.

AJA
Sorry, no.

ROB
You’re just listening to the conversation, okay.

AJA
It’s sounds like… Oh no, I was engaged. History has always been written by the victors, right, regardless of who we're talking to. So if a person was truly knowledgeable about that whole sense of how… Just the human psyche works. Even if you're going through history class in school and you're like, “Oh I’m reading about the Romans” but who wrote this? Well the Romans did. It’s just that type of context. Then why wouldn't that be applicable to our situation? A friend of mine told me this and I was like, “Wow.” It kind of blew my mind. But it took me a while to stop saying “Slavery” and to say “Enslaved people” because that's who we were.

ROB
Yep.

AJA
Our history didn't start with slavery.

ROB
Yes. We weren't slaves. We were enslaved people. There’s a difference.

AJA
We were enslaved people, yes. And that has happened to several other racial demographics here. So it’s the idea of just separating ourselves from the context of the incident and not becoming the incident because we are not that.

ROB
That’s a great point. I’ll make a “Book to read.” I recommend everybody to read. It’s a book called “Why Nations Fail.” It goes to the history really of the world and it really just gets rid of all these arguments that it's… Look, I’m going to get right to it. Cultures do not make it better. It does not. Just because we’re a culture… That's not the culture. It's the systems that are in place. And the incentives behind that system is how one exceeds or goes backwards as a society.

And I will say this: The most repressive ones… You look here. If you look at the United States, if you look in the south for all the years during slavery and all the years during slavery part two, Jim Crow, they actually did worse, economically. Why -- because when you have repressive economics and you're holding back parts of your whole society, you don't grow as much.

My message to the American dream for the majority population, everybody else, is that the more inclusive we are, the more money everybody makes.

Carlton, what is your perspective on history and how we can help others--

I think we got to be disruptive because some people don't like this conversation because it interrupts their feeling of, “This is perfect. You can achieve the American dream. You're making this stuff up” because people have this image that's been built up, that the American dream is achievable by anyone, everybody equally, and it disturbs people. They think you're being anti-American which I don't think you are. I think you're telling the truth and figuring out how to aspire better. I think it’s the most American thing you can do. But that's just me.

Anyway, Carlton, Anne, either one, what's your perspective?

ANNE
We can start talking about equal opportunity when we start at the same place. Even if equal opportunity opened up now, we're starting so far behind because of history which, again, they definitely hide from us.

I went to Shaker, which was a world renowned integrated community, steady 50-50 racially, even now. But none of the history that I’ve learned recently was ever expressed or told to us. So it is bondage.

I’m all for equal opportunity. But to talk about equal opportunity now… I mean after we do a little repair or reparations then we can talk about equal opportunity because we're starting from the same place. Even if I have the same opportunity as my neighbor, if I’m still recovering from years of economic imbalance, the opportunity is not attainable.

ROB
Yeah. -- And Carlton, history doesn’t repeat itself but it rhymes. It's important for us to learn from history so we can figure out how to not have a repeat if it's bad or to learn from it and grow. And I think that's something we need to really attach onto as we look towards expanding the American dream to everyone. What's your thoughts?

CARLTON
The first thing is history is the collection of lived experiences and from that perspective, we have absolutely no reason to be arguing about the facts of what happened.

ROB
[Laughter] Which we're doing now. People are like, “What happened?”

CARLTON
Right. We're arguing so much.

ROB
We’re arguing sky is blue or whatever. -- Go ahead.

CARLTON
Exactly. The facts that have persisted is one of oppression, one of imperialism, one of degradation and stripping the melanated peoples of the entire world, if we're going back into European history inside out. My BA is in history. I had some absolutely radical professors down there at Morehouse who made sure I knew it.

There's this narrative, the revisionist history, that has become the norm and we have to readdress this relationship of like… We can't be arguing about facts anymore.

ROB
We readdress the relationship to truth?

CARLTON
Right. Well not the truth. The truth is, is just what it is.

ROB
I’m agreeing with you. People need to readdress their relationship and be comfortable with it.

CARLTON
Yeah, exactly. And it's okay, right?

ROB
Yeah.

CARLTON
When you address the conversation of privilege, and we address the conversation of the system of advantages that white people have had in this country, you can't be mad at the fact that we're pointing out things that happened and are just here. Now granted, if you can never acknowledge it--

The first thing you do when you get in trouble, you fight your cousin and the auntie that yelled at you. After you all had a timeout and maybe a whooping, the first thing they make them do is say, “Okay, what did you do wrong? What did you do wrong? Shake hands and we can move forward.” It's the same thing. But if you're never acknowledging just facts about what your ancestors have done -- historically, to disenfranchise people who like look me -- we can never move forward in that conversation.

And it's not up to me to make that shift. It's up to you as that person of privilege who had those advantages to understand that, yes, you had them. We're not telling you to empty your bank account. But what we are telling you to do is be able to control your biases and don't allow them to impede on the progress of other human beings. Bias control is probably one of the greatest issues in America right now.

ROB
I think it is “The” issue. On one of my past podcasts, we had a conversation about reparations and why people get so emotional about it and one of my panelists said, “Some people would rather light their own money on fire than give reparations.” They'd rather put it up in flames because it's attacking their identity. That's how people feel because the identity is tied to something that is not true. It's tied to a past that didn't happen the way that it was told which is why I think--

Before we get all of this, people have to… they have to come to a reckoning. This is why, I think, we're at such a painful point, for many, because when you have an identity built up in your head, it is very hard for anybody to tell you something even if it aligns with the facts. And then you layer that on with social media that can now put you in a world that you believe this truth even though it's false. You get reinforced every single day that this is not America -- “They are destroying the American dream” -- and I think that is very, very dangerous.

So where do we go from here? I guess if people are looking at--

We've talked about a lot of the issues. Where do we go to solve some of these issues to really make the American dream more of a reality for a black American? Anybody can take that.

WHITNEY
[Inaudible - 36:21] that, right? He absolutely gave the very first step, is the acknowledgment of the trauma. That is actually withholding the American dream from so many. Without the acknowledgement of trauma, all we see are band-aids and--

I call them “band-aids” -- so interventions or systems put into place to help people. The reason why they're band-aids is because they're only going to work for long. And we see that over and over again when we talk about social reform especially when we talk about our political system. We put things in place and it works for maybe 10 years and then it breaks again because band-aids can't last forever. The things that you need to do is get to the root cause of the issue.

I’m an engineer. In our training, we're told to get to the root cause of the problem, right?

CARLTON
Correct.

WHITNEY
But we don't ever want to use the training when we talk about people. But it's the same thing.

ROB
It is.

WHITNEY
It's just messy and we have to get okay with the fact that it's messy and it's complex in what we call “Wicked problems.” And that is literally where we have to start. Stop ignoring it. Understand your history. Acknowledge that we have a problem.

And when people ask, “Well what does that look like?” It looks like people stop trying to gaslight the entire population and say that this thing didn't happen and that you're not getting what you want because of your own work ethic. None of that is true. So stop gaslighting everybody and say, “Hey, yes, this happened. It was a horrible situation that we had here for X amount of years and we are now going to be dedicated to moving it forward.” That's literally the first step.

And when people ask, “Is there proof” or “Have other people ever done it before” -- yeah. Look what Germany had to do to recover. Look what Chile has just done. They scrapped their entire constitution or starting from scratch right now. So it’s not impossible.

ROB
South Africa, too. Yep. Absolutely, it's not impossible. It's painful but it's not impossible. I think about Malcolm Gladwell. I can't remember which book this is but he went over an example of how South Korean Airlines approached Koreans they were working with in order to change the whole culture. And they had to actually understand cultural legacies. They used to have one of the worst airlines. Now they're one of the best.

And part of the approach was understanding how the culture is and the realities of how it got there. There were certain things like grown men would smack each other if you talk back to the captain. That's not going to work in that type of environment. But they had to acknowledge it. So they changed some things and now they're one of the best airlines.

I think if people really look at the cultural legacies in this country and understand it and have empathy… This colorblind stuff, you can throw it to the window because nobody's colorblind. Everybody is bias. It’s really having empathy. Because if you're colorblind, you're saying you're blind to everything that's going on.

See us. See what's happening and look to be a partner in that and then… I mean that's how we start. Internally, what do we do now? Let's assume there are some genuine partners. What does the black community need to do internally to change things? -- Any other thoughts from any other panelists before we go to our last question?

CARLTON
I mean-- [Crosstalk]

AJA
I think--

CARLTON
Oh.

AJA
Oh go ahead. No… Okay, this is the HBCU thing right now. I’ll just be really quick. I’m not even going to be… I’m going to be really, really quick. [Crosstalk- 39:44]…
ROB
Go ahead. We got time.

AJA
…go directly to you. Solely because of the fact that… First and foremost, we have to fix our house, like inside our house, but then also I would say, be conscious and aware of how your outside of your house looks like. And that's me coming from a global public health standpoint because I’ve been in other countries and we are not looked upon as the best of light regardless of what our skin tone is. If we are an American, we are not looked upon as the best light here.

And then also, on the flip side, there's individuals that I’ve met because of what I do that have escaped their own circumstances in home country to come here and to think that they were going to get really and truly that American dream -- to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. That's the identity that we're talking about. Let’s pretty much claim it. Let's put the pin in it.

Everybody feels that if you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps then you'll be able to make it here, and that's the image that we actually portray and send out to the global space. So when individuals come over here and find that that's not the case, that shift in itself really upsets our own American fiber as an institution because they're still here and they're bitter.

I just think the idea of fixing inside your house but also being very conscious of the outside fencing and deciding and all that other stuff, you know, you're having curb appeal, would be really conscious of us, too. And we should understand that as black people as well. -- Sorry. Now I give it to you.

CARLTON
Real quick. I think Black America has… You know, we have our work cut out for us in terms of getting to a unified message and agreeing and… I guess resetting the village's value system because we've adopted… Instead of being communal as we used to be and we were forced to be, we've taken on the individualistic characteristics that capitalism breeds.

And I think we have to move back towards our natural selves but also just this understanding that… You know, the most dangerous people in terms of the history of revolution, they were always unifiers. They found the similarities between people and they connected us.

Fred Hampton, as we talk about Chicago, Fred Hampton had to die because he unified the working poor Latino communities, Black communities around this notion that America is not working for us. And we can unify together and create something -- create a system that works for the have-nots because--

I think one of the clearest things, and I think COVID has exposed this, in seeing… You know, there's always been this rise in the stock market and it's been tied to American progress. And it's the first time Americans are doing worse but the stock market is up. And I know it's dropped the last couple of days but--

The stock market is not attached to the American people. It's not attached to working America anymore. I think we have an amazing opportunity as we talk about wealth inequalities and we think about Cincinnati with a preponderance of Fortune 250 companies here. But we're always in the bottom 10 in terms of income disparities and we're always in the top five in terms of childhood poverty.

We have to start understanding that it's more of a system based on economics than it is a system based on race as a body politic and then start moving in the direction of understanding, “What are the systems that we need to attack,” and try to address that serve us as a whole and see what we can do to get past those biases that exist and stop people-- [Crosstalk]

ROB
And-- [Crosstalk - 43:56]. Go ahead, Carlton. Sorry.

CARLTON
I said, to just stop people from working with us. We've always been open to working with people.

ROB
I would say Carlton makes a lot of good points. To add to his points, what can we do… because you're in the funding world. How do we also make sure that we are investing in ourselves?

I could tell what the aim of Disruption Now [is]. We’re working to build an ecosystem and eventually, a crowd investing platform where we invest in ourselves, in our own businesses because I do think that's part of it because we're not… Some of it, we do have less economically but disrupting the trend that's happening… I believe the median black wealth in… I can't remember the… Is it 2030 or 2040? I can't remember the year but it's projected to go to zero.

ANNE
[Inaudible - 44:40].

ROB
What is it?

ANNE
[Inaudible - 44:43].

ROB
Oh.

WHITNEY
Wow.

ROB
Oh okay.

ANNE
We go to zero--

ROB
That's depressing. Go ahead. Finish.

ANNE
Yeah, I know. Sorry.

ROB
Go ahead. What can we do to interrupt the wealth trends?

ANNE
Yeah, we go to zero in 2023 if COVID continues to do what… I mean 60% of black businesses are going to fail and entrepreneurship is the leading wealth changer for our people. As much as capitalism has its faults, it's got to be a priority [crosstalk - 45:22].

ROB
I agree. We just don't want the isms -- no racism and sexism. Take the isms out. We’ll take the capital.

ANNE
Right. We’ll take the cap… And I also think that the entrepreneurs that I meet with, we will take care of our own. When we get wealth, I… We have adopted some non-village sentiment but I think in general, I don't worry that capitalism is going to make us lose our core soul and all that. I think we help our own. Every business person that I encounter that's African-American has a “give back” agenda with their business.

I think we need to be extremely independent and disruptive and understand the concept of pushing PPP through the SBA when the SBA has never funded more than 5% of African-American businesses. It's flawed. Putting money into micro businesses and venture, it's flawed. Those are the two riskiest areas of business.

They need supporting but we also need to support some of those companies that built up to be E100. All of those companies came out of supplier diversity for the most part. So we need to push P&G and we need to push all the Fortune 500s to invest in our businesses, give us more businesses and walk us in through R&D. Don't walk us in through procurement and give us a contract to clean your office building.

ROB
Yeah.

ANNE
Give us a contract to come up with the next polymer for your next resin.

ROB
Amen. Preach, sister, preach. -- Go ahead.

ANNE
Yeah. And I think a lot of it is just being extremely tenacious and slightly untrusting of some of the stuff that's coming out. Every single company is announcing they want to help black and brown businesses. We need to push and make sure that it goes where we know it needs to go as opposed to where they say it needs to go.

I love corner businesses. I love small businesses but they make great photo ops for these corporations. We're not going to move the needle by having more sole proprietors. It's just the reality of it. 90% of black businesses have no employees. That needs to change.

We can't keep playing in the small end of the business spectrum. And a lot of these initiatives are pushing us more towards there. “I’m going to give you a hundred thousand dollar loan so you can stay in that risky…” Let them run the restaurants. We'll go to their restaurants. We'll cook at home and we'll--

We're so marginalized in the business community that… And we're kind of falling for it. We're all excited about all these companies that are willing to make hundred thousand dollar loans to the local nail salon which is… They need the support. I’m not saying don't support them.

ROB
Yeah. We can do both. It’s a “Check the box” approach. You've sparked a few things in me I want to bring up here. One, I think it's a “Check the box” approach. I don't know if I have a solution but it seems like every time there's a… There are two things people do. They do something you said and they come up with the diversity and inclusion training.

Let me just tell you this. I’m not against diversity and inclusion training but the revolution will not be brought to you by D&I. It is something that has been a “Check the box” that we know that they can easily say like, “We have diversity and inclusion” which is nowhere part of the culture in the system.

“How much are you investing in startups? What does your corporate board look like?” We have to really disrupt these conversations and not allow us to have another “check the box” conversation at this moment. So this leads me to my fourth and final question.

ANNE
Just one quick thing.

ROB
Go ahead.

ANNE
Look what happened in California when they said you have to have many females on your board. Those companies are stacking up their female board members overnight. So it’s hard lines like that. It's not you have to have a diversity and inclusion program. No. You have to have five board members by this date or you don't get any funding.

ROB
Yeah. As far as I’m concerned, for most part, most of these diversity and inclusion programs are just shows.

AJA
And those programs can get defunded and they typically do in corporations, speaking from someone who was like, “Why does this particular business resource group get like $5000 but the BEN, Black Employment Network, just got a thousand for a year” for like [overall - 49:57]?

ROB
Exactly, yeah. It's a “Check the box” approach.

WHITNEY
[Inaudible - 50:01] nothing.

CARLTON
And I think… -- Go ahead.

ROB
Don’t tell me what you value. Show me what you value and I’ll tell you what you value. I can tell by your budget… If your budget is… The least amount is usually in D&I. And I’ll even say this, because my mother has gone through this having her own firm, they often operate as a way to put you in a box to keep you from greater opportunities.

Most of the time, I don't even like diversity and inclusion. I tell people, “If I ever lead an organization, we're not going to have diversity and inclusion.” I said, “Every time my reports will come to me, I will say, “Where are our measurables?”” If they're not there, they're fired. It's real simple. It’s simple but it's not easy. It is simple.

ANNE
I’ll add this. Any program that says we have to do 20% spend with a majority company, you're requiring that those companies maintain that stamp or that brand of being diverse or minority or whatever it is and so when they go to sell, they can only sell to another minority or they lose all their contracts.

So it is across the board devalued the marketability of our businesses because we have this brand that we've got to stay to and we can't sell to anybody else. And if you can only sell to a small portion, your value goes down.

ROB
Amen. Amen. Amen to that. -- Aja, you want to say something before I go to our last question?

AJA
Well no.

ROB
You don’t have to. So let me get the lead into the next question because that might spark you and then I’ll let you go.

Critical junctures in history, particularly American history, have either led to progress or regression, and a lot of people believe we're in a critical juncture now. I’ll give you an example of a critical juncture. Obviously, the Civil War that we had. During reconstruction, we had, and still might be, the most advanced that we've ever had. But we know we went to a quick regression very quickly. In about 15 years, we put slavery part two, Jim Crow. That happened. Then we've had other critical junctures -- obviously, the civil rights movement and things like that.

Where do you see this critical juncture going in the black equity, “Black lives matter” moment now, and how can we make sure that it goes in the right direction of progress? -- Go ahead, Carlton.

CARLTON
I think it goes to what Anne was saying about the accountability pieces. Particularly from government contracting, that's always been the way. That has advanced black business.

But I think there's also, as we talk about the capital, coming from these corporate companies is one thing. But there is a wealth of talent and expertise that can be utilized to help redeveloping and reimagine struggling communities. And most importantly, for some odd reason, when we talk about history, innovation and ingenuity came from us. If it is just the fact then it's true, right?

So from that perspective, we have to be intentional about this process about the future of work and we have to be intentional about understanding that the pipeline for the jobs of the future is woefully under satisfied and it's been that way for decades.

I understand the need for the Affordable Care Act but I always felt there was an opportunity that was missed there in 2008. Take all of those people who lost those jobs when the housing market crashed and that whole piece. Take all those people. Retrain them for the jobs of the future. And those jobs that went unfilled--

We had two million jobs through the duration of the Great Recession. That went unfilled. There was no specific training program that was working to get displaced workers but most importantly, those pipelines that existed into these minority companies before the rise of “Everybody has to have a college degree.” Perfect example is in Lincoln Heights. Community of Lincoln Heights is the eldest black-run municipality north of the Mason--Dixon; will be 75 years old next year. I’m from there. That's where we're taking up our fight.

The first public housing was built by the Department of Defense for black workers for GE aviation which was an aeronautical plant back then. They were building the engines for World War II planes. That pipeline existed for 40 years and GE didn't maintain that pipeline.

Granted we're working tirelessly right now to rebuild it and GE has been an open and willing partner in a number of different ways but at the same time, how many other companies did that happen to? As we ship jobs overseas, we completely stripped that base out of black communities as a step towards progress.

ROB
And not only that you, you… I’m sure you already know this about Lincoln Heights. They also took away a lot of its infrastructure -- drove highways through it.

CARLTON
Absolutely.

ROB
It became nearly impossible to make it prosperous as a community. And this is why when we talk about the American dream, it is tied to economics. It is also tied to politics. And the two can't be divorced. The two are interconnected. People don't like to have conversations about politics. You can't divorce the conversation from one another. They are intricately linked. I just want to just say that because unless we are actually aligned in that, we're going to see those results play over and over and over again.

CARLTON
Oh for sure.

AJA
And that's exactly kind of where we started when I was saying that our trade schools were closed. I was seeing that as I’m going off to college in another area, that individuals whom I went to high school with were saying, “Oh yeah, I’m going to go into the trade” and now they can't. So then what do they do?

We’re rapidly becoming an area or I guess, an era, if you will… You said a “reconstruction era.” Our new reconstruction era is an era that is not a brawn but a brain. And what we need to do is we need to essentially--

You've probably heard the studies or have seen the graphs that almost everybody else in the country has surpassed us on our knowledgebase and our knowledge curve. Since I was in high school, looking at economics, we have always been over the most worked but less productive of country in all of the countries and it has not changed since 1996.

So we're doing something okay but we're doing something wrong and we need to really truly look at it as an overall… not just racial ethnic situation. But this is really truly like us as a whole that we need to work on because we're overworked, underpaid and we're not benefiting America as a whole, in general.

So more politics’ monies that we put towards, if you will, individuals looking at tech spaces, what can they do in terms of… Even technology-enabled manufacturing that we have here in Cleveland, how can we innovate what we currently have? How can you essentially take what works and what you love about the city, about the state, even Ohio, and flip it on its head and say, “Okay, well here's how we can make it better” and still keep what makes us, us?

Just innovate it so that it would be better and more efficient for everybody else. I mean I think that's what every city needs to think about -- how to keep their homegrown and make that homegrown better.

ROB
Yep. Anne, some final thoughts here and I’m going to the last two and then I’ll conclude.

ANNE
I’m a capital person. I want economics. I always feel like the political has been emphasized and like you said, not coordinated with the economics.

ROB
Correct.

ANNE
And that's a problem. Even in the professional women's organizations that I’m a part of, there's a strong political agenda and there's no economic agenda. I think we need to spend time on the economic agenda and really be strategic because the directions that we would be guided--

We have tremendous entrepreneurial skills in our community. If you can run a restaurant, you can run anything.

ROB
Absolutely.

ANNE
It's the hardest business to run.

ROB
By far.

ANNE
Right, and that's where we predominate. So we need to take a minute, a second probably, and really be strategic about the economic agenda and make sure that we are building for scale and sustainability as opposed to the moment because when times like this happen, everybody else is innovating and they're figuring out how to pick up our scraps when we fail. So we can't get too hung up on the free money that's out there [crosstalk - 59:35] stuff…

ROB
Because it's not as free. -- Go ahead.

ANNE
…because it's kind of welfare. It's not sustainable. I mean we need to take a step back and think, “Where do we want to be in five years and what areas can we dominate instantly because of our consumerism?” I mean we dominate many industries with our consumer behavior. We need to own them today and then work on the other ones.

ROB
Hey, I completely agree -- use our consumer power to get more capital to us. Money flows through us not to us enough. I think that's a great point. A second point that I think you brought up is that… We talk a lot about politics but politics without an alignment with economics is just talk because you're not going to get anything else out of that. So there should always be an alignment in the conversation, and people know this.

Look, I ran for statewide office, a democrat. I’m a democrat but I also understand that one must be strategic. And it doesn't mean you just say, “Okay, you vote for this person and this party.” A] You got to be bipartisan. You have to have both sides in order to make sure you contribute in some way. And B] No matter what, you have to know what you're going after and make sure you hold those accountable, be a democrat, republican, libertarian or whatever label you want to call yourself.

We want to know what you are going to do to advance the agenda for black entrepreneurship, for the black economy, and not be afraid to have that conversation and hold anybody and everybody accountable to it whether you're a D or an R or whatever you call yourself. I mean I really don't care.

So it’s like having that conversation and being intentional about it and really divorcing the emotion from whoever you're voting to say, “Okay, we vote this person. This person won. What are we going to do to push the agenda that we are looking for?” And that has to be the conversation. That has to be the process of how we go about this if we are to improve it because the two are together.

Like you said, if you just vote for somebody, that's one tool that you must do. And I do believe in voting. Please vote. Go out and vote. Make sure everybody -- your mom, and sister, cousin, your brother, everybody votes. Then become engaged in the process to understand particularly at the local level.

Look, mayors, city councils, commissioners give out a whole lot of money, a whole lot of contracts that folks don't pay attention to. We need to make sure that people that you're voting for give us opportunities. No one's trying to get anything. We're trying to make sure we're getting fair access and fair opportunities.

Let's see… Carlton, did we go to you last? So we’ll go to Carlton then we'll go to Whitney in final words.

CARLTON
I think for one, Anne, we're definitely going to talk after this. [Laughter] I really think black people have to continue to move on this path towards self-love, economically. I think we're starting to move in that direction. We're starting to wake up and understand that the systems that have been in play and have been operating are not built for us. And I think we're at a critical moment--

We're certainly at a crossroads as a country but we're more importantly, at a crossroads as a people, to understand this idea of the Du Bois versus Booker T. Washington argument that persisted for years. You're talking about this Talented Tenth. And the Talented Tenth were the ones who had education.

But if you think about everybody black in America that has some kind of post-secondary education of any kind, whether that's a trade or a skill, whether you just took over YouTube and you mastered a skill, you got your 10,000 hours in, and the fact that hip-hop is the number one music genre in the world where we now control our own narrative on a global scale, we are centrally--

We're just situated to force these conversations and bring those political folks to the table, bring those companies and economic, I guess, controllers to the table and have a conversation with them about, you know, “This is what we need for our people and this is what self-sustainability looks like for us. It had a definition before and you fought us on that.”

But now this is a very, very different generation and we have a very, very different skill set. And I think it's just time for us to unify a line on… I guess do that asset mapping of where our skills lie and then put together a comprehensive plan in each community, each neighborhood, block-by-block and change the outcomes in our community.

ROB
Anne, final thoughts.

ANNE
I thought I went.

ROB
Oh you went?

ANNE
I thought I did.

ROB
Okay, Whitney. Sorry.

ANNE
Well I have more to give. I will say this one thing. I’ll just add one thing. I’m a numbers person so numbers move me. .6% of philanthropy goes to black women. So 99.4% of the money that's going to fix our problems goes to people who aren't close to the problem. That one just blew my mind because I realized why philanthropy really has not helped us -- because the people that are giving out aren't even in the problem.

And I would argue that 99% of the problems of philanthropies trying to solve sits in black women's laps, one way or another. And the fact that we don't control the funding for it, it's just… Again, that's the disruption I’m talking about. That should be switched the other way where we control 90% of it, 99% of it.

ROB
Yeah. And Black women are, I believe, the leading demographic of entrepreneurs in this country…

CARLTON
Absolutely.

ROB
…with venture capital funding. I want to say it's .006% of funding -- 1%, overall, for black people. I think it’s like .006%.
ANNE
Also, venture capital… Be careful what you ask for because venture capital doesn't leave you with a black-owned company.

ROB
That's true. Yeah, that's a good point.

ANNE
That leaves you with one wealthy, wealthy black person, a whole lot of wealthy, wealthy white investors and a subsidiary of Google.

ROB
That’s an excellent point which is why we get to the point of why we're doing the crowd investing platform. But we got to build the community first. This is a good start of people that's on here -- disruptionnow.com. You can come on there and join us.

Whitney, final thoughts.

WHITNEY
Well I’m going to go in a completely different direction and say the final thought for me is still centered around education, and not necessarily higher education. When we talk about why people aren't involved in the political system or even developing a political agenda or an economic agenda and understand economics, it's because financial literacy is ridiculously low in communities. And that's not just the black community.

It’s hard to talk about money if you don't have it and to know how to make it work. So we really need to have better education about, “What does financial literacy look like,” deeper than just bank accounts and budgets. We're talking about, really, “What makes money? How do you grow money? What does investing look like? What does it mean…” We don't talk about cash flow. What does that look like at all?

ROB
Something else we've talked about on the show, too, Whitney, to go with your point, how do you talk about money, generationally? We often don't like to have the conversation that people are going to die. So like, what are you going to do to make sure that you're not the last person to have money?

I can tell you, I know this of so many black people, even very successful black people, that have no conversation, no exit playing about, “Well what does the transfer of wealth look like?” Chadwick Boseman, God bless his soul…

WHITNEY
Didn’t have.

ROB
…did not have a will. He knew he was dying and… And this is not to criticize him. This is to have a real conversation with us as a community. He’s not unusual. That is something that happens because we are uncomfortable, haven't had those conversations about wealth. And then that wealth doesn't get transferred at the level that it should and then we continue the same patterns. -- Go ahead.

WHITNEY
Correct. [Crosstalk]--

AJA
[Crosstalk - 01:08:26] part three just like this. Just a part three episode really of that. And I’m sure we could go--

ROB
Yeah, coming up next. There'll be some disruption. You’re right. It’s coming. It’s coming.

WHITNEY
That’s my final point. We need a better educational system on things that are really practical when we talk about, “How do we get out of our situations? What do the black and brown communities have to do?” It's not that I don't agree with all of the things that were stated. But one of the biggest things is access to knowledge and how to use the knowledge in a practical sense. We miss that piece largely because a lot of the knowledge isn't in our community either. You have to know somebody that knows how to do it to get to the knowledge and it shouldn't be that way.

ROB
Yeah. Amen.

AJA
Thank you, Rob. Thank you, yeah.

ROB
I would say as a final point, the knowledge can be there. The good news is we have to tell people how to get there because… There's been more information than ever before but sometimes, it feels like people are less informed. We have to figure out how we get the information to them.

For every company that's out there, for every black company out there, I want them to understand two things: You are always two things no matter what your company is. You are a tech company. You are a tech company no matter what you do. Technology is a part of what you do and it needs to be embraced in everything you do.

Every way you look at an issue, you need to figure out, “Is there a way to scale this? Is there a way to make it more efficient? Is there a way to automate this” and to not get to this process--

I’m not a technical person. We need to divorce all those narratives and all that language because… Yes, you are. And even “non-technical people” can make something technical. Just understand the problem and then figure out how you would solve it and map it out and then someone can help you do that.

Second, you are a media company no matter who you are. And there's never been an easier way to get your message out if you know what your message is.

So always know you're a tech company. Always know your media company.

And finally, as I talk about what we need to do to achieve the American dream, Anne said it, it is about disruption. It is about innovation.

And I have a pretty unique definition of “Innovation.” I think innovation is a rebellion against the status quo. It's not accepting things as they are and being willing to fight for that change that you seek. And that’s not going to be an easy path. It's not going to be a linear path. It’s not going to be for everybody. It's not going to be for most people.

You have to know who you're targeting, who your soldiers are and move forward. That's how the greatest innovations have happened and that's how we're going to achieve the American dream.

And I will say this to everyone, greater population, the more the American dream is achieved by everyone, the more the American dream will be achieved by all.

This is a conversation that's not just about black people. What's good for black people is also good for the American people.

Until next time, I’m Rob Richardson with Disruption Now. It's been a pleasure having this esteemed panel on. I hope you enjoyed our conversation.

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