BROOKE THOMAS
This is “Branding in a Black Lives Matter Movement.” We’re going to explore why finding your voice and knowing your brand is essential for success in 2020.

I’m Brooke Thomas and I want to introduce you to our panelist: Theo Dumont, managing partner of Alta Media and the PR firm for Spike Lee, Karla Ferguson of the Yeelen Group and Phylicia Fant, co-head of Urban Music at Columbia and of course, Rob Richardson himself.

Thank you all for being here. I’m excited to have this conversation with you.

ROB RICHARDSON
Good to be here.

BROOKE
I want to start off just to have kind of a discussion, a prompt, for everyone so feel free to jump in. This, I want to hear from everyone. Do you believe it has become mainstream to be more socially-conscious? Are we there yet?

PHYLICIA FANT
I think as people of color, we have always been socially-aware. I think that social media, in the times that we’re in, has made everyone else hyper-aware of our situations. We wake up looking like this every single day. So we are always a part of the conversation. I just think, more than ever, people realize that to ignore it is actually just not beneficial. And also, I would say just being blind to the fact that these are real issues that affect everyone and to move forward, we all have to pay attention right now.

ROB
Yeah, I would actually agree with that. And I would say that it’s kind of popular now. It used to be a controversial statement just to say “Black lives matter” as if that’s controversial when you’re just trying to say your life matters. But now everybody says it. Every corporation is like, “We believe black lives matter.” I think it is popular to at least pretend or at least say that you have empathy.

And people, I think, not only with social media as Phylicia pointed out, but I think in this unique time with COVID-19 and the fact that the whole world had to stop and really observe the injustice that we know just being people of color, being black… We know it happens every single day. But seeing that and having nothing else to do--

If you saw what happened to George Floyd -- I know we all did -- just watching that for almost nine minutes, just seeing somebody’s life being taken out of him and everyone is acting callous about it and then everybody asked the question, “Does this happen all the time,” the answer is, “Unfortunately, yes.” And that’s just the beginning of it. I do think there’s more awareness now. And in this moment, people have had to pay attention. So I think it’s more popular now.
To that point, I just saw a survey in FiveThirtyEight from polling that just says black people still is at the top of their mind. But the majority of the population is like starting to wane because, again… It’s not the focus right now but it’s always the focus for us.

KARLA FERGUSON
I agree, Rob. We're born this way. We look this way. We have our experiences, oftentimes, based on the way that we do look. At least for me, my awareness of black lives mattering and social consciousness has been since childhood. The reason I got into the business I’m in is for that same exact reason.

Today, we do see that it is a popular thing to do. You have to show your goodness, your mindfulness.

So now with everything in your face, we're all focusing far greater than we did in the past because we're all stuck at home, thanks to COVID. We are forced now to look at everyone's social media account. We're forced to watch the news. We're forced to kind of deal with issues. Everything slowed down. So now it's in our faces.

We see the disproportionate impact that COVID is having with regards to black and brown people -- the death rates, things like that. Today, it has definitely become in your face. If you don't address that kind of subject then you're probably a part of the problem.

BROOKE
Theo?

THEO DUMONT
Oh man. Yeah, it's tough, right? Daily, right -- daily. Yesterday, there's a video released of the Toronto Raptors’ GM who was making his way on the court and then the police officer who is suing him -- who is suing him -- clearly pushes and shoves him. That's a lawsuit, right? And people are saying, “Oh why did it take so long to come out? It's a legal thing,” well this happens every minute in this country. So it's painful. It's painful, right, and it's been happening for decades. I hope it's not flavor of the month and I hope real things start happening for us.

BROOKE
Do you think you’ve… -- Oh I didn't want to cut you off. Sorry.

THEO
Go ahead.

BROOKE
I’m curious. Do you think you've seen a real shift? When we talk about how we live… Of course, this has always been life. When you look like us, you're able to separate what people… There are a lot of people who don't look like us who consider human rights politics. When you're a black person in America, you've never been confused about the two.

So do you think that you've seen a shift from a branding standpoint to where people now realize that you can't sit on like, “Oh I don't want to offend the people who think this” and that the power is with the people who are pro-equal human rights?

THEO
I mean that's complicated. A little bit, right? I think there’s a little bit. I’ve seen a little bit of change. But then it just all comes back to the root of the problem. They're going to try to monetize on our culture. And it's very dangerous, right?

And again, flavor of the month? I hope not. A little bit of change but… I mean I’ll take anything, honestly. If it leads to more progress, I’ll take anything. But it's a lot of problems.

And I feel like it's a bigger problem. I feel like it is a political problem. I mean if we hadn't gone through this political climate, how would it look? What would it look like? Would people be looking in the mirror? Would there be these little changes that you're seeing? Maybe not. So with the worst administration in history, possibly--

ROB
And that's saying a lot. -- Go ahead.

THEO
Maybe there's a silver lining. You know what I’m saying? Here’s a question though. Here's a question: If things change in November -- if things change in November -- what happens? Do the people hide again?

ROB
That’s a great question. I have a thought on that and I want to hear from the rest of the panel on this because I think the present occupant of the White House is more of the symptom than the actual virus. He is creating a pandemic by his failure in leadership.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
Right? But in terms of him, I think it's something that we tend to just say, “If we change that…” It's not because he's a symptom of the system. So I do not think our lives get better.

In some ways -- you said this point -- the fact that he has empowered racism to be accepted, and people have seen that, that has actually helped highlight the situation. I think if it was a normal president, maybe this doesn't happen like that.

But I will say, to another point that Theo said that I really want to hear from the panel on as well, is about this idea of monetizing this moment. I’m naturally suspicious of anybody -- corporations and everybody -- that one minute, no one would even utter the words “Black lives matter” as a controversial statement, the next day, everybody says it is cool. I’m like, “So what's the reasoning for that?” The reasoning is that there's some value in that.

And what I have interest in, and what this conference is about, is about us collectively coming together and owning some of that equity that we are creating. We are creating this value. But value often flows through us, not to us, and I want to make sure more of it comes to us.

PHYLICIA FANT
I think you said it right there. This is definitely a monetization error of our culture. But I think the shift is, “Can we actually learn to capitalize off of it?” I think that has always been the problem that happens -- music, film, politics, everyday life -- is how can we become the owners of our own brand? How can we actually take stock and actually have a moment to say, “Okay, you all have watched us suffer. You also have watched us rise from this pain. You've seen us overcome all these conversations.” Now once again, we're in the conversation but corporations are being asked to actually fund these thoughts.

So I think knowing that money is there, knowing that… Fine, people are giving hundreds of millions of dollars to these conversation causes. Instead of, to your point, I guess getting frustrated by the monetization of it, we have to say, “What do we want to do as a community and on equal footing? Where do we go in and where do we want to see ourselves have pipelines to ownership? How are we hiring? How are we employing? How are we passing down to the next generation? And can that be consistent because the real issue is we're going to always face this.

I really feel like history, to a certain point, is repeating itself. But are we able to actually put in the systems of pipeline opportunities where we know that after this, we can continue to employ the next group of black entrepreneurs, understanding that black future is really what we need to focus on. And do we really have the tools in place to make sure that black future is consistent for the next generation?

BROOKE
I’m curious. Can any of you give us examples of how you've approached a client or an environment that has been racially-biased?

KARLA
I may have some examples. Well I’m in the art world and it's notorious because the art world upholds the status quo. What we see every day in museums, what we see even on television -- anything in the media, really -- is an artistic creation and it tries to keep things what we call “blanket American” or “Eurocentric viewpoints,” really shutting out a lot of people of color -- black people, women -- anything that's different, anything that doesn't fit in with their standards of what they would like to represent.

For example, ever since “Black lives matter” gained this huge momentum in the last six months or so I would say, I’ve had more boards of cities and corporate boards coming to me to diversify their art collections for their public art projects.

They come and they're kind of with that, “Oh we’d like to bring you on board. We'd like to have you showcase some of your artists, have them participate in making our city or our organization more inclusive and diverse.” And I understand. I say to them frankly, I said, “I understand you want to participate in the current atmosphere and start to correct some of your past mistakes or oversights of not including everyone in the conversation.”

Of course, oftentimes, it starts with, “Oh it'd be great exposure.” But my first thing once I hear that word is, “No. No, no, no. We don't do this for exposure. We do this for equity. We do this in order to be able to earn so that we can continue to create more works. And it's not just about having our voices amplified and getting out there, it's also about compensating us for our product… our work product, our creativity.” So that's been something new that's starting to happen.

And it's been very interesting once I shift their conversations from this talk of exposure and “It would just be great to have you on board” to “Okay, so how much are you paying the artist” or “How much are you paying my organization for putting us all together?” That's when now it really says to them, “Okay, put your money where your mouth is.”

ROB
Yep, I agree with that. I’ll just say, “If you don't bring any money to it then you're not trying to solve the issue because that's the only way you're going to actually show me that you value it. Don't tell me that you value it then don't have a budget, that you just have a symbolic statement” which is what a lot of people do or they do the next thing.

And this is no disrespect to those who are in the D&I space. But I will say this from a general point of view -- generally, that's the easy box that they check. The revolution will not be brought to you by diversity and inclusion training. They know that's a “Check the box” that people do.

And I want us to take this moment to go further. I’m not against D&I. I’m for actual real results because D&I, as we know, most of the time, is putting a separate category. It has no power, has very little influence. Give it a little bit of budget and then we get to have a great after party then everybody goes home and the situation is the same as it was and the corporate structure is the same as it was.

So I want to, and I believe we should, Brooke, take this moment and make… It's an opportunity where people are open and make them feel uncomfortable to make--

If you really want to solve this issue, we have to do more than what we've done before. We have to make sure that we have systems in place and we have to actually look and take a deep dive into how we are spending our resources. What does your corporate board look like? How much money do you spend with firms of color? How much effort do you actually put into doing that?

This is why we have more in this conference. We're creating a platform and we want to help build the community. But we're going to challenge these corporations that say that this is what they care about; this is where the funding is. I’m an optimist but I’m always a little bit of a skeptic.

So I think we're going to hope for the best in people but we're going to challenge them to meet the words and the symbolism that they're putting forward.

BROOKE
I like that you brought up diversity and inclusion because usually, if you look at different companies, they hire someone for that role who is not diverse. And the first step, diversity and inclusion, would be to diversify and include more people that are outside of the status quo into your office.

You need to hire not just one or two but you need to hire a bunch of people so that there's a safe space to change the environment; to be able to change the perspective of the environment not just turn into someone who has to fit in so that they can keep their role and never be promoted, never be listened to. That's a huge failure that you see all around.

Then people pat themselves on the back because they have this new role which basically just becomes a next part of HR unless you get someone in there that really cares. But often, that’s been a huge complaint from people about that.

I’m curious. Advice-wise, when should you turn down payment or opportunities when you feel your value is not being respected?

KARLA
Well I guess that would depend on how much of your creative agency you have to give up. If I’m presenting artists for a show or a project and all of a sudden the story is being told by some outside curators who don't reflect my values or my perspective as a black woman, well then I would have to say, “Sorry but I really can't accept this because what you're going to do right now is revise my history once again. You're going to retell the story from your perspective.”

The story only works if it comes from my perspective, actually. I’m not interested in things being whitewashed or Eurocentritized -- if that's even a term. I want it to come with the truth that comes from my community… from our community.

So if all of a sudden there's a lot of censorship and a lot of editing, I will respectfully walk away. And I will let them know why I walked away because it's pointless to have another story told by the hunter versus the lion.

ROB
I would think it depends. Essentially, when you know that you're not being valued is the time when you should walk away because if you're too desperate, it's dangerous because then you set yourself up for a situation where that will be something that is… People will accept that from you going forward if you accept that at that moment particularly if it's a bigger opportunity.

Sometimes, you have to just walk away from it. And that often gives you leverage in doing that. You have to have enough confidence in the value that you bring when you come to the table because we… We do bring more value. We don't get paid our value.

And I’m a little sick of the mantra -- I know we might talk about this later but I think it's a good place to put it -- that we have to work twice as hard to get half as much. We need to end all that. That's not how we need to think about this. We need to work hard to get just as much as everybody else, not to expect half as much. We expect to work hard but we shouldn't have to… or nor put the mindset that we have to work harder to get half. No. We have to work harder to get whole. That's what we're doing.

BROOKE
Let's talk about that though because it's not like a mantra. It's the truth. Do we have the ability to change a system that we didn't create?

PHYLICIA
I think there's a situation where we often say, “You have to go to grow.” But to Rob's point, they really are going to change in these corporations. They have to understand turnover does not look good for anyone. If you are turning over your employees of color especially in higher positions, and again as people grow, then that's something to be said about the corporation. So you have to look within and say, “If I can't retain great talent of color, there's something wrong with the system.”

And I think what's happening now is just that, to your point, Brooke. They can no longer pretend like it's okay to lose great people in great positions that look like us. You have to want to retain us. Again, to redefine the culture in a building, you have to keep certain people who know the culture.

So I think it's a respect fact that is coming with… It's coming with what's happening now, is the reckoning of… When you know you have good talent in a place, it's your job to [inaudible - 18:50] that talent and nurture that talent and keep them in your pipeline. So I really think now, that's the conversation we have to have.

As we start to get these jobs, we shouldn't have to work harder, to Rob’s point. You should want to keep us because it looks good for you to keep us in your buildings and to show that diversity truly matters. If you're constantly, constantly finding new people to “look like me” to fill my job, it says that you don't honor the people in the space while they're there. So I really think that, to your point, is what has to happen.

BROOKE
I’m curious about this because how do you fight back against that fear? So part of it is the system that you're very aware of, right? The other part of it is, when you're the only person in the room, you have to battle being afraid of not being the only person in the room -- essentially, being not being there.

I’ve been on many panels where you have young black women talking about how they're in the office until 2 a.m. They don't take lunch breaks. They don't use their vacation days. They want to prove themselves.

I have never had a boss that, at some point, I didn’t see out of office -- females -- that didn't truly take their vacation days, leave when they needed to. But younger people, people of color, black women, are afraid of looking like they're not up for the job or they're not fighting their hardest when it's not reality. But how do you fight against that? What's your advice to people especially like young women in the business?

PHYLICIA
It's really never easy. But it goes back to what you're saying right now about your brand and being authentic. And it hurts. There's definitely days where you… like, “Why is this happening to me” and “Why do I have to go through this?” But at a certain point, you have to stay firm on your convictions. You will start to lose yourself if you don't honor yourself in these spaces.

And at some point, to what I believe our other panelists said, if I have to walk away to keep my integrity, I just have to walk away and faith has to kick in. There's never really any answer for that. But if it doesn't feel right, if it starts to hurt who I am and deteriorate the person I want to become, it's time to walk away. And I’ve had to do that, [inaudible - 20:57]. I’ve had to say that I’m more important; my health is more important than this job.

KARLA
Absolutely. We shouldn't have to burn out in order just to get half as much.

BROOKE
Right.

KARLA
It's detrimental to our health -- our mental health, our physical health. We need to be able to put ourselves first. This starts with self-love. Love yourself. Know that the universe has something better for you if this does not work out. One door closes, multiples may just open for you.

You know that you're putting yourself out there. You're giving your best self. That's a reward in itself as well.

So we just need to be able to love ourselves enough to get past all these negative stereotypes that have been placed upon black women. We're not angry. We're not lazy. We're not full of attitude. There's all of these things that we take on every single day and it's draining. So love yourself and just block out the noise.

THEO
Yeah. Entertainment industry, right? I’m in the film and television space and live event space, both in-house, in Studio Corporation, MGM studios and creating our own firms or working for other firms. Yeah, there’s no handouts -- earning it and doing it yourself.

I started getting used to not seeing a lot of people that don’t look like me -- just half of it. And still the question is, with COVID in this movement, like I said before, “What does the other side look like?” Will those board rooms change? Representation, the managers, the agents, does that change? You can count them. You can count them with your hands how many there are.

I must confess, I went to an event once. I was at ESSENCE Fest. Phylicia was there and Phylicia was running an event. And I can't explain to you how… Yeah, I can't explain to you how proud that made me feel.

First of all, this event is... This is popping, right? It was a surprise event. Not on my schedule. I was just secretly invited to this and I’m like, “Who's running this?” And I see her running the show and everything is… Because you're in an event space, there's a mutual respect. And you're like, “She looks like me.” It's deep, right? It's a very deep situation.

And I met a person who runs a branding agency -- one of the top ones in Hollywood. Every poster, every one sheet that you see that comes out, she runs this. Same feeling. I’m in this office and I’m like, “What? You made this? This is so crazy. This is your idea. You're running the shop.”

And she told me what she's trying to do is a program where she brings in new designers from all over the country and fostering the next [hers - 24:03]. And I feel that's important. Like, it's cool. It's nice to talk about it. We're saying, “Yeah, put the money up but we have to do it ourselves.”

Again, she was saying that was hard is the lack of education. There's no training ground. So she has to almost build the infrastructure herself.

So if I’m looking at this and I’m like, “You’re doing this,” I have to do it as well. So it's on us as well.

ROB
Yeah, I completely agree with that. On that point, before you move on, Brooke, I want to just talk about that because I think in order to get past this, we have to, first of all, get past the fear. We have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Look, that's part of growth. You can't grow and actually be comfortable. The two are like diametrically opposed forces -- so kind of rejecting that fear and moving forward.

I would also say when you're in these situations, you're in hostile grounds, get allies. You can get allies from places you will never expect.

I can just say navigating a really complex situation. I was on the board of the University of Cincinnati, very complex, very conservative board, and we dealt with a lot of really complex issues. One, one of our officers go out and unjustifiably killed an African-American man. So I had to go and really figure out how to move this board forward to make a lot of really consequential hard decisions, and I was able to do that. And some of my allies were some of the most conservative people or people that you may not think as allies.

So I would say also, when you're in these situations, when you're in corporate America or wherever, don't assume that someone's going to be against you for whatever reason because of their political leanings, anything else. You would be surprised, areas where you can make advancement.

Some of my best opportunities have not come from… I’m a democrat. I’ve run. But some of my best collaborations and support haven't come from “Democrats.” It doesn't change my political beliefs. But what I’m saying is sometimes--

And I was like this before I got on the board. I assumed that people were going to have this and be this way and often, it was different than what I thought.

So I would say, “Don't be afraid. Get good allies.” And then to Theo’s point, and this is exactly why we're starting the Disruption Now network and why we're starting all of this, we have to organize around ourselves. There is no superheroes coming. Captain America is not coming. Black Panther is not coming. That's all for the comic books. We have to create that together.

BROOKE
I want to talk about authenticity using politics as an analogy. People kind of talked about like they don't want platitudes. They want policy. But then there's also the space of how it feels to hear a presidential nominee or vice presidential nominee say something like “Black lives matter.”

So when you come to big companies, a lot of it is platitudes and not necessarily their version of policy. How do you accept how that feels, living how it feels to have companies making statements that you're shocked to see and then also hold them accountable when you ask for their diversity?

Let's ask to see what it looks like at your company and there's two black people out of 700. How do you live in this new world and breathe in what's happening and also hold these companies accountable so that it's not just talk and a show just to make a little money?

ROB
I’ll start, I guess. I would say words do matter. I’m not going to say that I don't like the fact that people acknowledge that there's an issue so I’ll say that at the beginning.

But then I would say when people say this and they open the door, the next part of the conversation is, “So what are you going to do about it to improve the situation?” Are you going to say that or are you going to do your part to improve it?

And then it goes back to really developing those relationships and then challenging people. Listen, if they're not doing it then be willing to challenge them. A lot of people don't want to do that.

I think if we -- I’m talking about us as black people -- are willing to understand our own value and work more collectively together, I don't think we'd have as much of an issue because we do create a lot of value. We are very strong. It's just a matter of us understanding that as we navigate this process.

THEO
I think it’s people of powerful voices making statements to change old Hollywood. There used to be leading actors making a lot of money -- lot of lot of money. They had the power to make changes happen on these Hollywood sets and at those times, they didn't speak up.

Same thing with sports. Some of our leading leaders, decades ago, they had the opportunity to make those changes and recommend, “I want more people that look like me on this board, on this company” and they didn't do that.

And then you have people that came through and changed that. They spoke up and they speak up and they practice what they preach.

So I really feel like as we rise, we have to practice what we preach and just say it. “If this is not like this, let's change it. Why is it not changed?” I hope there's changes on the other side.

For instance, the studios, press lines at these premieres, I speak with outlets run by people that look like me and they say, “We don't get invitations to some of these premieres. They want to put me on the black films only.” And sometimes, it takes a producer of power to say, “What? Where are those faces at?” So until people start speaking up, it won't change.

PHYLICIA
Exactly. If you don't do something then it won't change. I’ll give you an example. So I stayed in a corporation, not the one I’m at now, but it really goes back to even our interns. Our interns were all people that did not look like me, working on music that I worked. And I have to go to these HR companies and say, “Look, it's important to pull from HBCUs. It's important to pull from black student unions at USC, UCLA and everything else because they're there. They exist.”

I think, too, what your point is access and doing things. This is going to be a long process. I think that's what I really want to kind of get to a point. This is not going to happen overnight. So we have to do our due diligence. We actually have to stay focused on the fight.

I know we hear this all the time and I know this is again history repeating itself. Our ancestors, our forefathers and all had this conversation. But we have to stay in the game. We cannot say when December hits or after this election hits that we do not go to HR every week to say, “Are you hiring more interns of color?” Are you making sure they [report - 30:57] themselves to stay in these internships?

So I really just want to reiterate that this is not a slow… Sometimes, it's a long-haul situation. This is going to take a second to get there.

So to your point about inviting black media, it's our point to look on the red carpets and say, “We want to make sure that you're placed in the right position on this carpet, that we stop for your interviews, that you understand they should be invited.” But it takes all of us to do it.

So I think until we all collectively agree on the agenda as a people, the ongoing agenda that we want to push forward, none of this will really change. We have to all be on the same page and have to actually know what everybody wants to do in every building and we have to hold each other responsible and accountable. It's really beyond making sure they are accountable as much as we are accountable for ourselves. I think that's what I wanted to kind of just push out there.

ROB
A lot of us control budgets and things like that and we can challenge it. And all of us can be like, “I can do better, too.” All of us can do better and making sure we are pushing more when these things happen because there's all types of levels. Are you looking at professional services, accounting? There are lots of opportunities. It takes us more work but it's worth that.

KARLA
I would say, depending on your level of power and influence in your industry, it's imperative that you use that power to bring the talent that you know exists within your community to the forefront.

So if I’m doing a project and I know that these artists, these black women are doing amazing work, I’m going to make sure that this group show of 30 artists will at least have, I would say, half black women because I’m trying very hard to push our perspectives and our stories. But you need at least 10 black women there as well. And I will insist that it has to be this way. But I’m also the type that will walk away if it doesn't go my way.

So I think it's all about constantly taking your talent with you. You've got to drag them into the room and insist.

Going back to what Theo said about old Hollywood. I remember this story about Marilyn Monroe and Ella Fitzgerald. They wouldn't let her perform in a club and Marilyn said, “Oh no, no, no. We're not going to have this. I’m Marilyn Monroe and this is what I want. I want my girl, Ella Fitzgerald, up on that stage in this “Whites only” crowd.” And after that, it wasn't a question.

She leveraged her power to get justice and to make things a little better. And this was not that long ago. I mean I’ve got grandparents that will probably remember this happening. But that's the only way sometimes. You've got to flex your muscles.

BROOKE
So my next question is… And I’ll start with you Rob because you mentioned kind of working across the line, working with people whose perspective is different than you, maybe not necessarily to a hard negative point but definitely different. “Best advice on approaching negotiations with clients or bosses who do have a clear bias.”

ROB
First thing I would say is that you have to get an understanding of who that person is. So you know that they may have bias but what actually ticks them one way or another?

And also, try to come outside yourself, too, and understand, have some self-awareness of what can trigger you because I can say like they can be bias and that can exist and it's going to exist. Then you have to figure out… What you can control is yourself -- how you react to that. And you're going to know some things that are going to be very predictable.

So you're able to really have some self-awareness in two ways. One, self-awareness about who you are, what triggers you and to not allow yourself to be triggered. And then two, to really understand that person and how they actually perceive you because my definition of “self-awareness” is not how you think of yourself, it's how others actually see you -- not how you hope they see you, “how they see you.” And if you can actually get to that level of depth, you can have a really profound impact on negotiations no matter who the person is.

And I’ve done this before. I’ve had some really, really uncomfortable conversations. I’ll tell you one -- it goes back to the board again. There was a lot of controversy for me being chairman of the board. I became the youngest in history. There was a couple of African-Americans but it'd been a long time. But nobody had been like just mid-30s. So it was a big, big process that no one else had before.

I had worked twice as hard. I went through everything and did all that and yet there was still this process to try to block this opportunity from me. They kept saying, “Well you might run for office” and I’m like… Some of these people had made millions off the university. I didn’t make any money. But I didn't get to that. I just asked, “Okay--”

I had to actually confront him and I had to ask him, “Why is my process different than everyone else's,” and you can hear a pin drop. And he said, “Are you calling me racist? Are you saying I’m racist?” And I knew he was going to say that. I didn't call him racist. I just said, “I just asked a question.” That's what I told him -- “I asked you a question.” He got real sheepish and there was no other problems.

But I had never ever even hinted around issues like that before even though there have been many things before that. And I’m not saying this is right because we shouldn't have to take these little microaggressions. But sometimes you just got to because you have to figure out how you're going to move and pivot for the long term.

I had to take microaggressions many years over many years. What I did is I kept it as a note and say, “Okay, I know and I’ve observed about this person how they are.” And I keep it as a mental note not to take it personally because guess what, it has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with the fact that I’m black. There's something wrong with you so I’m not going to internalize any of those issues on me. And we can get to that--

And this is hard to do, and I don't have it mastered. But as you approach that, that's how you approach these situations because if you can… to the greatest impossible, it's a constant journey. Master yourself and understand your own flaws, your own issues. And then really look to have empathy about how someone is this way, you'll have a much greater effect in moving them forward.

BROOKE
Phylicia, is there more of what you were saying earlier about playing the long game?

PHYLICIA
I actually agree with him completely. It is about the long game but also learning when to pivot. But something that's very important what he said is taking notes. Again, there's always a frustration point in microaggressions. But the truth is you just might not get along with everybody. You can try your best to… I hate to use the word “mute yourself” but at a certain point, again, you deteriorate. So you have to figure out that balance of what is okay for you.

And I’ve dealt with a situation where I’m like, “How can I communicate with this person without offending them?”

But also we are in a very cultured business. Part of my job is to be passionate. Part of my job is to stick up for my artists and what they need. And that's going to come out any way I feel and not because I’m angry and not because I’m upset but because I’m passionate about wanting my artists to feel their best self at all times. And when you're dealing with microaggressions within certain environments, it's often difficult to explain how to understand artists to people who do not see them as human.

So in humanization and seeing me as human, I think microaggressions come because people don't think you feel the same way that you feel. They don't see that you hurt the same way, that you cry the same way. Just because we don't look the same doesn't mean we don't go through the same range of emotions.

I say that to say I can't always please the person that wants me to mute myself but I will think about how I’m triggered. I will think about the things that trigger them. But I’ve also learned I have to document the ways in which I have tried to be a great co-worker and that has been ignored. I hope that makes sense when I say that.

At a certain point, “Hey look, these are all the times I’ve tried to come to you to meet you halfway and you have not met me” because sometimes examples are the only way people realize that they actually are the person at fault and not the other way around.

ROB
If I can before you go onto the next one, I want to encourage the audience to engage. Tell us if you like something. Make sure you are asking questions. We're going to be able to get to that right after this session.

BROOKE
Karla, I want to hear from you, too. What doesn't work? What else doesn't work when you're faced with this? What does work? What doesn't?

KARLA
I think I might be a bit of an expert when it comes to various microaggressions. I’m based in Miami and this is an extremely diverse population. However, we do operate under certain viewpoints. It's still the “American way” or the “White way.” The different populations that live here all have this idea of trying to become that superior group.

There's a lot of colorism here. I will deal with microaggressions from the language I speak, from the various islands. Am I mainland black person? Am I an island black person, multi-ethnic divisions?

ROB
Oh you mean the Kamala thing. Like, “Are you black because you're from the--“

KARLA
Yeah, correct.

ROB
Yeah. Go ahead.

KARLA
I get that Kamala thing a lot especially depending on how my hair is. She's all straightened out and I’m… It gets worse when you actually start to look like her versus when I’m just completely in my natural state.

So right now, currently, I’m dealing with a lot of that because I feel like I’m constantly having to defend Kamala and her position as a black woman because I’m also Jamaican and from a multi-ethnic background. Our experiences are very much the same. I’m also an attorney so I went through that world. There are a lot of microaggressions at the level that you wouldn't imagine when it came to highly-educated people.

I got to the point where I stopped trying to explain everything also. “It's not my job to educate you. You're more than capable of educating yourself.” Often times, I’ve had those kind of moments where I’m just like, “Well if you really want to know about this subject, you can go and research it” especially with other attorneys because that's what we do, right? We research a lot.

And I’ve gotten to the point where I can't take on every single issue and I do just… I won't say “back down” but I’ll get quiet and I’ll say, “Well I’m not really going to touch that because that's your problem, not my problem.

Also, going back to the fact that I’m in Miami, there's a lot of colorism which is not just black and white here. We've got various shades in between and the languages and the different cultures.

So I think when you're in a melting pot like what we've got here, the microaggressions come off far differently. You can have immigrant populations, first-generation, and they're looking down at you and you're wondering, “Wow. Really? I’ve been here this long and you just arrived.” So it’s so many layers here.
THEO
It's complicated. I’m from Miami, too.

KARLA
I know.

THEO
I know “complicated” -- Asians, Cubans, Dominicans, American people, Boca Raton, Fort Lauderdale. It's just very, very complicated and there'll be racists right to your face -- right to your face. Everyone's got their own cultural values and then socioeconomic issues -- little Haiti. It is an interesting place. It is a very interesting place.

Florida is an interesting place because if you look at Orlando… I grew up in Orlando. From Orlando and Miami, four hours apart and it's night and day. It's a very complicated place but it teaches you to prepare for anything. [Laughter]

KARLA
We know. We know what you’re talking about.

THEO
Oh man.

BROOKE
Let's talk about influencer marketing. It's a new tool. It's a great tool. A lot of people are going to groan when you say that but it's an effective tool. Can you tell me examples of how you've used influencer marketing successfully?

KARLA
Well I do contribute a lot of articles to various magazines and media outlets. It's always opinion pieces, my lifestyle, things like that. So I’ve become somewhat of an influencer. I guess I have to own that now.

So whether it's a fashion brand or auto brand, whatever it is, people look at me and say, “Oh we like the way that you're living. We like the way that you're moving in the world.” They tend to listen to you because they value what your opinions are. They value your thoughts and your advice on certain things because they believe that if they are in-tuned with what you're in-tuned with, they can get to that point in their life as well.

I’m not a spring chicken. I’m not a teenager or whatever. I’ve been around for a while so I have a lot of younger people that come to me on daily basis asking for advice, mentorship, things like that. I freely give advice especially when it's my people because I want them to avoid a lot of the stumbling blocks that maybe I went through.

Also, there is no road map for what we're doing. I’ve created the roadmap for my particular line of my industry.
So I would say that social media has been great as far as equalizing the playing field a bit more because it's really me speaking to the people directly and they can join into the conversation.

I don't have to go through some editor or some bigger platform in order to allow my voice to be heard. I can go on Facebook Live or Instagram Live, whatever it is, and I can speak directly. So my voice is amplified by the amount of people that follow or listen and contribute.

I really love all of that. I think influencer marketing is the future right now especially now. Again, we're all pretty much stuck in one place. We're not out in the streets anymore. We're focused on our computers and our devices, right? So if you're bored, if you haven't really had any social interaction in the last six months, you're going to go on social media. Everything has gotten more amplified. My views are up. Everything is up because now people are focused on these products.

THEO
Yeah, I would say you've got to believe in the product. You got to believe in the product. It's got to be authentic to you because we're almost like the gateway for the influencer. So if these are my friends or network of people of influence that I’m going to be presenting them, something to talk about or endorse, I better really like it. It needs to be authentic to me because I get one shot. If I send it to this person, it's a film or a product or something and they're like, “Are you… I’m never…” That's it.

Our relationship is everything. These are relationship-driven transactions so we can't take the BS. It's got to be authentic. It's got to be meaningful. It's got to make change. It's got to be something good that you're proud of to put on your wall because a lot of these brands are just like, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Hype this up for me” and they'll offer… It goes back to the earlier question. They'll offer you a nice check. But if you don't have pride in that thing then I wouldn't do it.

PHYLICIA
I was saying brands still expect any conversion so if you don't convert, it doesn't matter. So exactly what you're saying, if they don't feel that it's authentic then no one really wins.

So I think influencer marketing is definitely important and it really won't go away but we definitely have to find the ones that actually convert the fan. And coming from a music space, when we're thinking about the influencers that we hire, if we cannot get people to actually download that song or follow that artist and there's no passion in that click then we didn't win.

ROB
And these spaces allowed is democratized, if you will -- getting people's voice out. But at the same time, if everybody is out there, that means there's a flood of voices out there. So for you to be effective--

I actually think your goal should not be, “How can I get a huge audience?” No. The question is, “Who are you? Who would be people that would likely align with your beliefs” and you focus on that.

And I think where people get messed up is, “How do you be authentic?” You’d be authentic by making sure you are addressing issues that you care about, that you're aligned with. And at the end of the day, you don't care if you lose some people because the greatest way to grow is to eliminate first. Who are you targeting, who do you care about and what is it that you value?

As Karla said, you don't have to have a bigger microphone to filter your voice to be a certain way. You don't have to do that. But at the same time, I think people use the current environment just to say, “Well how can I get clickable bait? How can I get people just to pay attention to me” versus “Am I actually adding value?”

So being an influencer is actually figuring out how you create value for people. If you do that, you will get value back. But I think people view this as, “Let me just go out there, figure out if I can just do something, say something crazy, and then maybe I’ll go viral.” Maybe you will but you probably won't. And then you will likely just end up doing stuff to make yourself look stupid. So it's better to know who you are, be confident in that and go from there. And it's a long process.

And I’ll just say this then I’ll end on this point. In this moment, when we're talking about advancing, particularly black people, we have to be careful to not allow ourselves to be used just to advance a platform to make someone look better because they will--

First of all, you might make a little small check and as soon as they're done with you, if that's the only value you create, just trying to be a front for somebody else and make them look better, there's a thousand of you that can be replaced. But who can't be replaced is you. If you know who you are and you bring that value--

When I talk about Disruption Now, I don't worry about people copying because nobody could be me. I’m not worried about that because it's unique to what I bring. And people have to have that same approach when they look at influencer marketing. Like, “What do you believe? Who are you trying to reach? Who is most likely to align with you and where are they at?” Understand who would be likely to resonate with you and that will increase your chances of actually being a powerful influencer. That's how I look at it.

BROOKE
So the question is… because I feel like people are going to ask. They want you to dive a little bit deeper into that. I think that's a great explanation. But the question is, “How do I drive engagement but also stay real, not lose that aspect?” Is the answer to that really not focus on driving engagement?
ROB
Phylicia, if you have anything to add on that I’d love to hear your last point before you have to come back. -- Don't worry, audience. She's going to be available to talk for questions. She just has to go out for a minute. So we still want to get your comments. Still continue to engage. We love the engagement. Keep it up.

PHYLICIA
I think to your point, Brooke and to Rob, it is the balance. At the end of the day, people are going to look to see if you stand for something. When you're looking for, I guess, your ongoing cult following, as you will, what we still need to do is keep the artist’s focus genuine.

I’m not saying that you can't go out and go try to get that follower. But at the same time, they'll leave you if they don't believe in you. So you have to be willing to risk that person leaving in hopes that the person who understands you will come back and replace them because that's the only longevity and to have a consistent fan base.

We're more concerned with who's actually showing up repeatedly as we try to identify who that audience is. If we can't figure out who your audience is, who your fan is, who that person who is, your die-hard feels like, we can't grow your brand.

So I’d rather you get rid of and weed out the people who are not authentic to you, who are just on that site because they thought it was fun to follow you for a second, and I'd rather you have 30 great followers who are always going to be there and become your cheerleaders than 100 people who only click on occasionally and do nothing to elevate you.

So it is a risk you take in a back and forth as you push yourself out there. But the more you stay consistent with everything you do, the more successful you'll be on the long haul. That truly is a fact.

You can have so many followers that do not engage with you and if you don't have engagement then no one's winning. And that goes back to the brand conversation. If brands realize that no one's engaging with you but they're following then they're not actually seeing the conversion. So I always say, “Be authentic first.” Instead, they will follow you.

ROB
Yeah. -- And Phylicia is... We have to brag a little bit but we have an episode with her and… India Arie was one of your artists? Am I right on that? Was it India Arie?

PHYLICIA
[Inaudible - 52:08].

ROB
Yes. There was a great story about that. We can't go through it all but it proves your point. People are like, “Well she's just this Afrocentric person. Is there a place for her in hip-hop?” We all know that there is but it was making sure she was comfortable in who she was and focusing on that, so it applied. So thank you for coming.

PHYLICIA
Thank you.

BROOKE
Thank you. -- So as we wrap up, anyone else want to jump in on that, like to focus on how do you drive engagement, how do you grow but also not lose your realness?

KARLA
I think you have to just be real. Be yourself. Your vibe, literally, will attract your tribe. Not to sound cliché but it's the truth. There are other people that are like-minded that want to hear what you have to say, want to understand your experiences, that feel what you're about. And as long as you stay true to who you are and you project your authentic self--

Again, the ones that are just following you just to be there for a moment, you're not really so concerned with them. You're concerned with the ones that you're reaching -- the people that will actually continue on your path, the people that you will influence to take the same steps, people that will want to become more open in sharing themselves with their particular brand of what they want to do in life.

You've got to also have a bit of vulnerability and openness. It's almost like getting into a relationship with someone, actually. You're in a relationship with your audience; with these people that are like-minded and that want to see you do well. And you're there to uplift them as well.

I think so long as you're being positive yet real, you'll be able to do that. You'll be able to uplift. And once people feel a sense of pride and that they are being valued as well, they'll stick with you and they'll go on with the journey with you. And I think that's important is to be able to just--

You know, it's not about the follower thing and you're leading. It's really a collective of people that say, “This is our common mission in life and we're going to walk the road side-by-side.”

ROB
Theo, you got nothing?

THEO
You got to know you room. Yeah, you got to know your audience. You got to know your room. Yes, yourself, right -- inside your heart. Just be authentic. Be yourself and that projects wherever you are, whoever you are.

I had a situation where I was working with a filmmaker and we ran the world. We did a campaign and people loved the movie and people loved the work. And just seeing this filmmaker's passion rubbed off on me. “I feel like I’m you right now. I’m loving the way you work -- everything; loving the way you work the room.”

We have a studio behind this. We accomplished great things. That's over now. I’m independent. We created our own label, our own production company -- management and marketing company -- so we have different clients. I’m working now in a smaller film, fast forward. You know, things move so quick in this business. That thing is history. So now I’m working on this new thing. I still have the same energy. I still feel like I’m like that filmmaker and I got the studio behind me.

So I’m on this conference call and I’m like, “What? Let's go. What are we doing? What? Are you… Let's go. You know what I just did? That! I just did that. Let's go.” And they're like, “No. Who are you? Who's the director now” and I’m like, “This guy” and he is a younger filmmaker. And they're like, “Mm. That's all nice, everything you just did, shaking the world and all that but we're going to move turtle speed here.” So I had to check myself. I’m like, “I got to have another room. I got to evaluate.” Listen, you'd be authentic but not everybody's ready to shake things up.

ROB
I want to disrupt, actually. I think disruption is the opposite of what the majority wants so you got to go in an environment when you need to disrupt. Sometimes, you just got to leave. You either have to give voice to it and then if they don't listen, you got to exit.

THEO
That's so true. That's so true. That happened to me recently. I have a business partner… That's the thing, too, about having a crew, having people you trust, having a tribe to have your back. That is so important.

I was on an island before by myself but I’ve met some people in my life that have really had my back and have said exactly what you said. Recently, too. They’re like, “You have enough clients to keep things comfortable. Is the staff happy?” “Yes.” And then, “If this is compromising the situation and it's really disheartening, walk away.”

ROB
I would say this, too -- it's part of trusting the process, too. You're not going to overnight… I’m going to guarantee you this. I don't know how it's going to work out for you but it won't work likely the way you expect it to. It won't be a linear process. There will be frustrating times and you still have to find a way to keep going.

And this is why I think you have to enjoy what you do particularly if you're in this space. If you're trying to do marketing, if you're in this space of branding, influencer marketing, whatever you want to call it, content marketing, if you don't love this, you will not survive because there are going to be long droughts. There's going to be opportunities for you to get discouraged.

And if you don't actually like it and you're working 10 hours a day and then nothing happens and you don't gain more followers and… None of that stuff happens overnight. So you have to love part of what you do.

You have to be pragmatic, too. I mean have that passion and some pragmatism. You got to know how to pay the bills, too.

But you can't just look out for the short term and sacrifice the long term. But you also can't just look out for the long term and sacrifice the short. You have to do both. But you still have to have, I think, some passion. At least that is me.

Also, know what you're not good at and how you need help in other areas and then be willing and be vulnerable enough, as Karla said, to go out there and get it.

And before we conclude, I want to make sure we give a good shout out to Theo and Karla for all the work you guys have done. They both have episodes so you can go back and check out Disruption Now podcast. They're both on there as well as Brooke. She also has an episode on there, too. Everyone on here has been on Disruption Now podcast. And I know, Theo, you have a huge big announcement coming up.

THEO
You know what? At Alta Media, we're about to produce Black Wall Street feature film by the Beza brothers so we're so excited. It was brought to us by a gentleman named Blake Reading. He was at a company called “TheMachine.” We’re going for it.

It was just announced today and now we're going to be looking for a director and I think we're closing in on that area and we'll be announcing more shortly.

It's a very important project and such a powerful screenplay. And as I believe, next year is the 100th anniversary so this is going to be a big deal in 2021. So we’re excited.

And I believe LeBron James and SpringHill are doing a documentary or documentary series on this subject. I’m sure there will be several. We're happy to just be working with some amazing writers on it and director.

BROOKE
Important how much different aspects of media and television film, how that… It's more important than just seeing yourself. A lot of it, as we've seen in recent times, have become as education -- a lot of stories. We've talked about like… There are things that… based on what's on HBO. People are finding out about actual aspects of history that they never learned about in school -- different movies.
Sometimes things are hard to see but there are things that you never hear about. You don't learn about different… even like slave revolts. You don't learn about that in school and how often that happen; how often people were fighting back against this system… this horrendous system and you learn about it in TV and in film. So it's important. Someone who's from Oklahoma, I’m excited to see that.

ROB
Yeah. So as we get ready to conclude, we want to take your questions. I want to thank everybody, thank the panel for coming out.

It's a good way to close that we are talking about the media and how important that is because Disruption Now is about disrupting the narratives and constructs that people accept. But we can change. We can only change that together when we work together, connect together, build together. So I hope you're taking the opportunity today to do that -- to network, to meet new people, to connect with new people.

This is just going to be the beginning of this platform. We're going to do everything possible to change the narrative and change the constructs and work together to empower everyone collectively.

THEO
Thank you…

ROB
Thank you, everybody.

THEO
…for having us.

KARLA
Thank you.

BROOKE
Great.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]