“You always think there's an order to how you move through a company, an order on how you see something happening for yourself within your job structure but then you realize, “You know what? This happened so that I could get here. This pivot helped me be prepared for this new challenge.” -- Phylicia Fant

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ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. [I’m] honored to have Phylicia Fant who is the co-CEO of Urban at Columbia Records. I don't think that title does justice to her name because she's basically been all over the place when it comes to artists. She's been in pop. She's done projects with Prince, Jason Derulo, Swizz Beatz, Common, Lil Nas X even -- I want to hear about that. That might be interesting -- and all types of people. So she's had a really broad experience within the music industry and it's just an honor to have her on. -- How are you doing?

PHYLICIA
I’m amazing. How are you?

ROB
I am doing well. Keeping yourself safe and healthy out there in Los Angeles?

PHYLICIA
Yes. I feel that's all we can do even though every time you feel like you are safe, you start over. I took the COVID test then you go to the grocery store so then you're like--

ROB
“I got to take it again.”

PHYLICIA
At some point, you just have to say, “You know what? You have to just trust the process.” Do all you can and just kind of live your life a little bit, not to be [crosstalk - 01:30]…

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
…but also not make yourself paranoid. So I’m in that balance of just kind of going with the flow.

ROB
Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. So let's talk about how you got here because from my understanding reading about you, it wasn't like your life's path to know you were going to be a top exec in music. But your life in the process led you there. You started off as an English major, I think, at Spelman College, correct?

PHYLICIA
Yes, that’s right. Yes.

ROB
Talk about how you started off as an English major and you ended up here in the music industry which I don't think is the most instinctive path, people say -- English major onto become a CEO in the music industry. But perhaps I’m wrong. Tell us.

PHYLICIA
No, you're exactly right. I think that Black… And as we define that word, “African-American, Caribbean, African.” When you are from a certain family, it's always “Be a lawyer, be a doctor or a teacher.” Those are jobs that I think everyone understands. Everything else is kind of in its own category. But there was something in me that always said I didn't necessarily want to be a teacher or be a lawyer or be a doctor. But what do I want to be?

I’m now a junior at Spelman -- we spent a lot of money to get me there -- and what is that next step? But I happened to walk into the cafeteria and I saw a posting that said CNN was looking for English and journalism majors for publicity. It's the first time I ever heard of “Publicity,” didn't know about it, didn't even know it existed. But I took that internship as an English major and found that I could be a publicist.

You could honestly say, “Oh maybe she wants to be a sportscaster or a journalist,” anything like that, which were things that I started to think about. But the thing “Publicity” kept sticking in my mind.

So I took this internship which also led me to do an internship at UPS Corporate which, again, was a publicity internship for corporate. And when I say that, I want to make the distinction of working with artists and then working for the corporation's publicity conversation.

Leading that job, I ended up getting a random job with Evander Holyfield with one of my pro fights. I’m a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority.

ROB
Okay -- Kappa Alpha Psi.

PHYLICIA
Hey! Okay, Nupe. -- So she allowed me to work on some events with Evander Holyfield. At that point, I knew that there was this thing called “Publicity,” I just didn't know how I was going to segue into music. And I bring that up because following that last internship with her, I got one lucky shot to be the radio intern at HOT 97 under Chaka Zulu and Chris Lova who is now Ludacris. So that was the idea of music but still didn't know how to get into the music business.

So now you're dealing with 1996 through 2000. It's Outkast. It’s Goodie Mob. The music scene is crazy, okay?

ROB
I remember that. I remember that ‘90s, yeah.

PHYLICIA
Space records is popping. So now you know there's this music business. You hear these names of Shanti Das and K.P. and all these different local Atlanta legends but you still don't know how to get into that system because here I am in Marietta, Georgia. I’m not in Atlanta. I’m not in the schools. I’m not growing up with a talent. I just know this is happening.

So following that internship at the radio station and then working for Evander Holyfield, I knew that the music business existed. And I think that's something a lot of kids don't know, that there is a business of music behind what we had then was a CD. You see this address that says “1755 Broadway” but not knowing that this is the building where everything is happening. I’m thinking that's where the CDs are being made.

At any rate, I land an internship/paid opportunity with Evander Holyfield and I meet this woman who does PR in New York. So I’m like, “Everyone has moved to New York. All the labels are moving there. This is Arista. This is Universal. This is everything. I’ve got to get to New York and I’m going to be in the music business.” So I moved there, Rob, and I found that this woman is fraudulent.

ROB
Oh.

PHYLICIA
She applies for credit under my name. The company closes immediately, maybe eight weeks after I moved to New York. I’m living with a friend--

ROB
This woman that recruited you to go to New York to take this great opportunity and committed fraud? Wow.

PHYLICIA
Yes. Yes. I have to tell the truth because I think people think you just jump into these things.

ROB
Yeah. It’s not a linear process.

PHYLICIA
It's not linear. I’m an only child. My parents were like, “Oh you're coming back home.” I’m like, “Nope. I’m not coming back home” because I have been in Georgia all my life. I love that I went to Spelman. I love that I followed the legacy of my mother who also attended Spelman but I have to figure out what this is. I’m in New York now and now I’m excited because it's just a different world. It's a different community of people and I want to figure out how to stay there.

My roommate at that time was working at IMG which is a modeling agency and I’m still like, “Well I don't have a job now but I’m not moving.” Again, I was afforded the opportunity to at least be able to stay there because we were staying at her parents’ house until we found an apartment.

She was going to work and I would go in, too. I would suit up. I put on my suit. I’d have my resumes ready and I would sit at Starbucks and just start sitting on my resume in hopes that I would find a job ASAP so I wouldn't have to go back to Georgia.

I signed up for Adecco to be a temp. This temp position allowed me to work at New Line Cinema about three days a week. So I am now temping at Adecco. Adecco is placing me at different companies. They have me at pharmaceutical PR. I’m like, “Look guys, I want to do entertainment PR. I don't want to do anything but entertainment. I have my internship. Please stop placing me anywhere but entertainment.” They were like, “Just stay tight. But we did get you a tip position at New Line Cinema.” So I was temping there two days a week which was great because at least I was getting the experience of film but I still wasn't sure how I was going to get back into the music industry.

ROB
Right.

PHYLICIA
So I’m at Starbucks. I started looking up PR firms that handled music. This name comes across my desk and it says “Terrie Williams.” Terrie Williams is a long-standing Black publicist who has worked [with] Miles Davis, Eddie Murphy. And when you are 22 and kind of relentless, you just go for it.

So I had my resume. I had my suit. I knocked on this woman's door and her assistant came to the door and she was like, “Do you have an appointment?” I’m like, “I have no appointment but I know she's a great publicist and I want to work here.”

ROB
“Fortune favors the bold.”

PHYLICIA
Right, Rob? So I go to the door. She walks up to me. She's like, “You are interesting.” She looks at my resume. She's like, “Look, I’m not hiring but you can come and sit with me for a week.”

So I sit with her and you just kind of hear her make these phone calls. You hear her talking about pitches and you get this kind of like first-hand experience of what she's dealing with.

And then she sends me on my way a week later with a letter of recommendation and a book called “A Personal Touch.” What that meant was learning about people beyond just the surface. [Crosstalk - 08:15]--

ROB
Right. You said a lot there. I think, as you think about the process of somebody who is 22 or someone who is just beginning the journey and they look at this, they're like… You know, that's a lot. Things didn't go any way you planned, it sounds like. You probably didn't plan on doing a bunch of temp work, going here to there, doing temp work for pharmaceuticals, living at your friend's house.

PHYLICIA
Mm-hmm.

ROB
“What do you think was the most important lesson during that time?” That's my first question. And then the second question, “If you can go back to your younger self, right out of Spelman or maybe during Spelman, what advice would you give to yourself with the knowledge you have now and what advice would you ignore?” That was a lot of questions.

PHYLICIA
The advice I would ignore is to have a plan, Rob. And when I say that, you can have ambition and not have a plan. I think people confuse the two. You don't have to have a plan to be ambitious. You can still have goals. You can still have dreams. But I think the plan makes you feel like there's an order to our process. “I’m going to get married at this time. I’m going to have kids at this time. I’m going to have a house at this time.” There's really no plan to that.

ROB
Yeah. Timelines are false expectations that set you up for disappointment, saying, “You have to do this. You have to do that.” I’ve been victim of that for myself. I know because I’ve always set these timelines and goals. And then if you don't hit them, is your life over? No. I mean timelines are really false expectations that we set on ourselves. You're absolutely right.

PHYLICIA
Exactly. So my younger self would say, “Stay ambitious but also stay open to going with the flow.” Trust that as long as you continue to try for something, as long as you stay persistent in a goal, that it can happen -- not at the time maybe you want it. But also not having a timeline sometimes protects you.

I think you always think there's an order to how you move through a company, an order on how you see something happening for yourself within your job structure but then you realize, “You know what? This happened so that I could get here. This pivot helped me be prepared for this new challenge.”

So my younger self would say, “Stay ambitious. Stay focused. Keep knocking down doors but be okay with not having everything in the order you thought it should happen” because the order would not have had any tip [crosstalk - 10:32]…

ROB
Exactly.

PHYLICIA
…and then finally, you land a tip position at Universal Records which led me to having an assistant position at the company.

And even then, I still was not a publicity assistant. I was someone who was on the floor which meant that people liked me. They liked my energy. And they would rotate me out so I could be in the radio department one day, I could be in the sales department one day, I could be in the president's office as the second assistant one day, cutting apples, which I did, and…

ROB
Oh wow.

PHYLICIA
…putting peanut butter on toast. But you do all these things because you recognize that you're now in the place you want to be. And part of being in the place you want to be is also being humble enough to learn the lessons that gets you to the top. It's not a sprint. You need to know all the things that make a company work and how they function.

So don't be so eager that once you get in, that you step over the lessons because these things taught me the fundamental principles of the record label by being in all these departments before I landed the PR position at Motown Records where I stayed at university for 10 years to start my career.

ROB
You discussed that in some articles. I can't remember… or something. I listened to you as I researched. You said that as you do these jobs like a temp, don't just see it as a job but see the end result and all the things that matter, all the connections that you make. You've gone into it some.

But can you think of any moment that sticks out that you can really see that the past work you did or the things you did, the level of detail and the attention you paid to the relationships and to the work you did really helped position you for greater success? I mean can you think of a moment that was really pivotal that you just said, “Wow, all the things I did, this really helped me. Had I not taken this seriously, I might have actually missed my opportunity”?

PHYLICIA
There's a couple. I always kind of position it to artists’ experiences. I can think about Andra Day who was not necessarily winning that radio. When I say “winning that radio,” the song Rise Up was not something that stations were running behind to play. But when you think about relationships and your rolodex and the people that you meet over time, it causes your brain to pivot and say, “You know what? If I believe in something, what other things can I do…” -- because everything is not formulaic.

So how can I take these resources and take my journey and my experiences, A] being a Black woman, a woman who deals with natural hair, a woman who understands social injustice and all these things, and understand what her song means and how this song can then relate itself to the current situation?

And when you think about “Rise Up,” you think about it as an anthem for change, an anthem for opportunity. So instead of worrying about if she could get played on radio, I made sure that I started to play in certain events, charity organizations, moments where the song could mean and stand for something beyond what the typical song is supposed to stand for in an institution, if that makes sense.

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
So it was taking her to different places, thinking about things like CNN Heroes where they look for songs that, again, are about hope; the ESPYs, thinking about people who use songs in the memorial portion to say, “You know what? We rise up;” Breast Cancer -- all these different organizations that saw this song as a change, as a moment where they could come out on top, where they could change the narrative in their head to be something better.

So instead of thinking about the song as the thing that would hold me back, I thought about how the song could help people and look for organizations and people that could benefit from hearing this song or using this song in their platforms. I hope that makes sense.

ROB
It makes sense.

PHYLICIA
That's kind of what I’m saying when you have to pivot… when you still want to win and you still want to see yourself move forward.

And then, again, when you attach yourself to a project, you're only as good as the project that you're working on in industries like this. So how do you stay relevant? How do you move the needle? How do you realize that your job can go beyond, which is strictly PR, and start to recognize what it means to evolve and take your own self out of a box to become [crosstalk - 14:35]?

ROB
That actually is a good transition to another question I have about being typecast. You’re obviously a Black woman. In music, that's a… I don't know how to say this. It's a treacherous industry for women in general particularly for Black women. I just think it is. And it's easy to get typecast. It's easy to, I think, fall into landmines. And you've avoided most of those. How do you think you have done that and how would you advise Black women that are coming into this industry right now given your experiences?

PHYLICIA
Again, there's a lot of levels when you say “landmines.”

ROB
Yeah. I mean I left that open vague. There's a lot of levels to it. I mean you can pick.

PHYLICIA
I think the first thing--

ROB
You can pick. Like, you could easily get typecast as, “Oh you're just going to focus on rap music.” You've obviously have done a lot more than that. There’s the traps and there's--

Obviously, there's a lot of misogyny in urban and rap. We could be clear about that. -- There are some great things. -- But it's easy to get trapped into a box because you're a woman. And you're a corporate executive. I’m sure you have to deal with all these things but you came out on top.

Those are things I’m asking about. Like, how would you advise someone to not be typecast then also how to navigate the unique position that it is to be a Black female in the industry that you're in? Does my question make sense?

PHYLICIA
It makes sense. There are so many points that I could [crosstalk - 16:01].

ROB
I know. There's a lot. That's why I asked the question.

PHYLICIA
Well let me go back then.

ROB
Okay.

PHYLICIA
So if I go back, I can start with the first position of not being typecast. So as a young publicist, I started with a white boss at Motown. That's the first thing. You come from Spelman College, you are in a very predominantly Black environment, you go to Motown and you think that your boss is going to look like you and she did not.

And what was beneficial about the boss that I had is she knew when she told me, “If I don't assign you to certain projects, you will get boxed in” because there's an assumption that if you look a certain way, that's the only thing you should touch. So she blessed me, at a young age--

And I say “blessing” and I would say almost… I won't say “curse” but “blessing,” is that my boss was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 25. And it hurt me because… I remember the phone call that day when she said, “Phylicia, I’ve been diagnosed and I’m not going to be in the office for a while. But I want you to take this project--”

Her name is Jojo. Jojo was a young white girl. She was 30 years old. And that was the opening, the door for me to see that I could work something that didn't look like me. And that I could not only work it but I could also break it and make it big. So that opportunity allowed me to first say, “You have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone.” As a person of color, you have to be willing to take those challenges.

And while I think rap and R&B and hip-hop, black music, the diaspora, we are everything, there are labels attached to our music. But having the opportunity to put myself on a project and find myself in rooms that were hard... I would often be considered, “Oh are you her stylist? Are you her [crosstalk - 17:36]? Are you her assistant” -- all the things that couldn't define me as, “No. I’m actually her publicist. I’m the one that called you to get her on this TV show.”

So whether it was Fallon, whether it was Ellen, whether it was, at that time, Ryan John Seacrest and all the different shows that existed, it was interesting being a young Black woman coming into a room with a young white woman and people not giving the authority.
So you have to learn how to take your stance. You have to learn how to take your position. And you also have to be willing to take the risk to do something that might take you out of your comfort zone which was working Jojo and working Amy Winehouse and my boss telling me, “Hey, I’m going to put you in the rock publicity department. Now you're going to work three doors down in Godsmack” and all these things that you would never have thought you were interested in because you may not like it.

And the thing about growing past your comfort zone is saying, “I may not like it but I can still work it and I can still touch it because I want to learn the fundamentals of all these types of music and how they all work together in one system” because, again, the music business is one system. You can't think that you can survive or grow in any institution and not learn all parts of it even if you're an expert at one part of it.

ROB
Yeah. So--

PHYLICIA
So [crosstalk- 18:43].

ROB
That’s a good answer, I would say. You also talked about the ability to change your brand but remain authentic, and that's very important. You believed to your success. How does one balance that out because you have to balance rooms where you… Case in point, you just brought the point that people thought that…. They never took you seriously as the publicist, that you were her hairstylist. You couldn't be the person actually making the decisions.

How do you be your authentic self but then also figure out how to communicate in a way that's receptive to people that may not accept your authentic self? So there's this balance of… How does one go about that in your life when you're in an industry… That can be corporate. That's not just music. I think that applies in a lot of industries. How do you go about navigating that and how do you, I guess, just go through that process as someone has to go through that all the time when you're black and you're a woman.

PHYLICIA
Well it's remembering why you're hired. And I remember that I was hired because I was black. I am a woman but first and foremost, I’m an expert at what I do. So if you can take yourself back to recognizing why you were hired and remembering that you were qualified then you will show up as yourself.

I think, often, you get off-track. Every day is not perfect. You might not make the best decision. Your idea might not be the chosen idea. But you still have to understand in all of this that you got to this position because you earned it. You got to the position because you worked hard for it and again because you are the best at what you do.

And also recognize that, while you're the best, there are ways to grow and evolve. So that's understanding your brand but recognizing that your brand can evolve because there's more to learn in any position that you're at.

I have to tell myself that I’m here for a reason. I’m here to make a change for a reason. They are asking my opinion because I have proven time and time again that I can make decisions that come out for the greater good of the company, for the greater good for the artist, which is great, which is the greater good for everyone.

ROB
Right.

PHYLICIA
At any point where you start to question who you are, that starts to get you off your game. It's like you're not at your fighting weight. So you have to remind yourself that, “Hey, they may have an opinion but I have one, too. Now how I voice my opinion is up to me; how I handle criticism is up to me” -- because there are moments where you will be criticized but recognizing the history of your journey, the experience that you had that got you this position are there for a reason.

Just as I talked to you, you know when to segue me. You know when to pull me back in. You know where to take me places. And I have to trust the process that you're giving me in this journey right now because you're an expert at what you do.

I don't talk to people every single day on a podcast but I trust that “because Rob does, I’m going to trust his journey and trust his expertise to guide me where I need to go so we can get to the right destination,” and that's with any job.

ROB
But trusting yourself and being authentic, how do you, I guess, make sure that you are in-tuned to your authentic self? It sounds easy but it seems like a lot of people have a lot of trouble being authentic and understanding what their mission is. I think it's beyond your work and beyond your expertise. If I remember a line that you talked about… The fact is when you deal with artists, you don't just say, “Okay, let's sit down, figure out how much money you can make.” You want to know what’s their legacy--

PHYLICIA
I want to know where they’re from. I want to know where they want to go. I want to know what they mean when they say they want to build a brand.

ROB
Why is that important to you? Why is that part of your authentic self? That’s part of my question.

PHYLICIA
It's because I have a job and a responsibility to also say… Some of these artists are coming from backgrounds that don't allow them to know what they need or what they want. And if I’m sitting here in a position as a person of color that they may look to, it's my job to be real. It's my job to be honest. And it's my job to figure out how to take them to the next step and how to unlock that best potential. But I can't unlock that potential in them if I don't [unlock - 22:51] the best potential in myself.

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
If I don’t do my homework and research to understand where they come from, what experience has gotten them here, how they shape their lives then how can I help them elevate in their careers?

And if I don't look and see what the climate is -- how are people responding to this music, how are people responding to this type of individual… Is it easy to be a woman of color in the music business? No. Is it easy to be a young Black man from the streets in the industry? No. It's not so simple to say, “Here's a check.” It's understanding, “Do they have the tools to continue to be successful if they don't have a hit next week,” you know.

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
So my job is to develop more in them than just saying, “Hey, here's the record and let's promote it.” Like, “What do you want to stand for? What do you want your legacy to be beyond music? Do you want to have a family? Do you want to have a business? You have kids now. How do we make sure that they go to college? Do you want to start a charity? Do you want to give back to your community? What is important to you?”

These are the questions that I ask because that's how you really build a brand around an artist. You find out all the things that make them tick. You find out what makes them get up in the morning; what they're striving to do. You know, not everybody is going to have that. Everyone is not going to be the next Pharrel, the next André 3000, the next Kendrick Lamar. You don't want to put pressure on anybody but your job--

ROB
That's already taken. Kendrick Lamar is taken. Jay-Z is taken. You’re not taken. I think it goes to that point of understanding when you talk about how you can be good at helping artists navigate the waters, develop their legacy, develop their own authentic brand is, first, because you are confident in who you are and you've gone through, I’m sure, the painful exercise of figuring out what you're good at, what you're not good at, understanding what you're actually passionate about and making sure things align around that.

I think it goes to, if you want to be authentic, first, you got to really go through, I think, a brutal internal exercise of self-assessment which means you got issues. We all got issues. And you have to figure out what your limitations are.

And then you can help others because you can be attuned… If you could listen to yourself, you could be attuned enough -- I’m dissecting what you said -- to actually help others and that's how you are authentic, it sounds like.

Can you think of an artist that has done that well? I think you talked about Erykah Badu and about how she… Everybody told her that she shouldn't present herself in that way and she was comfortable with who she was... Can you talk a little bit about that story because I think it's very interesting? I think you--

PHYLICIA
It wasn’t actually Erykah. It was Andra.

ROB
Okay.

PHYLICIA
But I did work with Erykah Badu. I think that working under Kedar Massenburg who was one of the first Black male presidents coming out of the Berry Gordy era and all those people, he discovered Erykah Badu and D'Angelo. What he knew was that neo soul mattered. What he knew was that there was a resurgence of what you might want to say “Black power” or “Black enlightenment” and--

ROB
It seems like that’s coming back again. -- Go ahead.

PHYLICIA
[Inaudible - 25:59] at the forefront of that. So Erykah and this neo soul movement, India Arie, all these people who wanted to show you, Jill Scott, that being natural is okay. And I think that goes back to when you talked about me and my authentic self. I have to be okay with my complexion. I have to be okay with my different hair type. And part of that exudes who I am but part of that also is entrenched in the type of artist I work.

So when Andra Day said, “I want to wear this scarf on my head” and people thought, “Oh well is that attractive? Is that what she should be doing,” we had to let people know that that was actually rockabilly culture and that she wasn't trying to dress like a maid or an Aunt Jemima, that actually she was part of an evolution of enlightenment and what she wanted to wear.

When I say that about Erykah, when I said about India Arie, when I say that about Andra Day, anybody that does not dress the way society thinks you should dress… If you don't have straight hair, if you don't want to wear makeup a certain way… And again, I’m not judging anyone because I think, again, no one's monolithic. I think every type of female should be in the industry. What I’m saying is when you do not fit status quo, there can be certain challenges that you face.

ROB
Sure.

PHYLICIA
People like Erykah said, “Nope. I’m going to wear this wrap around my head and there's going to be people that follow me” and Kedar said, “Yes. You know what? There will be,” and they did. And so you understand, and what we're still learning, is that Black people are not monolithic. You know what I’m saying?

ROB
Not at all. Not at all.

PHYLICIA
So many things that make the diaspora up. So our job is to bring all those different manifestations of kingdom and clean them into the industry and show people that people will consume music as long as it's great and cannot change someone's image to fit a box that you're comfortable with, that you have to allow every type of imagery to be seen because there are people that relate to that.

ROB
Absolutely.

PHYLICIA
So that is the story about Erykah or India or Andra Day or anyone that I’m working is “Who do you want to be” because people will show up for you if you are who you are.

ROB
Yeah. And the old rule in marketing, “If you market to everyone, you market to no one.” Knowing your market is really key. And trying to just fit into some general boxes, that's nothing. That's everybody.

PHYLICIA
And the consumer feels that. The consumer feels when you're not authentic. The consumer feels when you're not real. So it's better now to just take that risk of being your best self and seeing who shows up for you because if you don't do that then your art starts to change. And then once your art changes then what are you there for? You can't even present yourself the way you want to present yourself. So I think that's the kind of ebbs and flows that we deal with when learning who we are but also projecting who we are.

And then as I look at you be comfortable, I’m like, “You know what? I can be natural. I can be dark and I can be beautiful.” And those are things that I have to always tell myself in these places. And I can tell the young girl who does look like me, “This is okay and you can succeed by looking like this.”

ROB
How would you advise someone in a situation… and I’m sure you've gone through this because you're an outside the box thinker as you've articulated quite well. But there are times when you can think outside the box, be outside the box but someone wants you to do something in a certain way. You want to go rogue but possibly you can't.

Talk about the balance between figuring out how to think outside the box, be an innovator, be a disrupter but then figure out how to actually create that change within a structure, within a culture that may not be ready for that. How do you do that? Do you leave or do you figure out a way to create the change from within? That makes sense, my question?

PHYLICIA
I think so. You don't always have to leave. I think when I was in my last situation, I think that's kind of how I evolved from just being a publicist. I’m a publicist by trade. I was that for 20 years. But I recognized there were different parts of me. There's different things I wanted to explore and I thought that I could bring different things to the table than just publicity. I felt that I was marketing. I felt that I was branding. I felt that I had a very holistic view of how I thought artists.

But if that does not work for that system, if that hole that you want to fill doesn't want to be filled then maybe you do have to move on. Everybody doesn't want your expertise. Everybody doesn't want to see you evolve. So you have to tell yourself, “Am I happy being here or do I see other things for myself?”

Luckily, at that time, people liked the fact that I was interested in doing other things that helped the institution that I was at. But at the same time, as soon as you see that ceiling, you have to say, “Is it time for me to move on from this corporation” because now I’m starting to hurt myself.

Anytime you start to question your natural gut or your instinct or you start to feel trapped, that only hurts you. I have felt trapped plenty of times and so I pivot or I may add things to my plate.

And again, some things you don't necessarily talk about right then. Maybe you try it out on the backend and then bring it to the frontend. Everything is not about knocking and making a loud noise. Sometimes, you have to prove... They say “Proof of concept.” You have to give things a chance.
But I recognized in my last job that I wanted to be more than a publicist and so they added “Lifestyle Marketing” to my title which again showed me being a multi-hype in it and took a course at Harvard Business School, which has been the Business of Entertainment Music and Sports, and you start to recognize that it's okay to not be one thing. I think you grow up thinking that you have to make a decision. But as you grow, you learn, you observe, different things start to attach themselves to you.

So I’ve been able to take that to my position now as co-head of Urban at Columbia and say, “This is why these skill sets matter.” Being in a “box” was necessarily not the word I want to use but I knew there was something more for me. “Box” does sound limited. And I think some companies will put you in a box but your job is to figure out--

ROB
I mean people naturally try to put people in the boxes. It is a natural thing for people to do. People allow themselves to conform and… What you've done is amazing because… It can be done. I’m glad you've done it. But pushing back, knowing who you are, when people say, “You should be something else” is a journey. It's a continuous process. Speaking of that, you've done some work with Lil Nas X, right…

PHYLICIA
Mm-hmm.

ROB
…and he's definitely someone that I don't think fits into a box.

PHYLICIA
[Inaudible - 32:27] box.

ROB
Yeah. That people don't think in a box. No. I must say there's a lot of Black people in country music. Country music was originally black. A lot of people don't give us credit for that but it is.

PHYLICIA
[Inaudible - 32:36]… We can go down the list, yeah.

ROB
Yes, we can go down the list. But currently, when people think of music that is “Black,” whatever that means, they don't necessarily think of country music. He called it “Trap country music” which no one… “What is that?’ Right? That's something--

PHYLICIA
The song was “Trap” -- just that particular song. If you listen to his EP, it's an alternative EP because he borrows from every genre which is what we are trying to say about where we stand. We are not monolithic.
And I think you pretty much explained it with the question. When you see an artist that you know is more than, it's your job to present opportunities that allow them to flourish. We knew immediately that he was a genius; that he was more than just this one song that happens to be the biggest song of all time. He was more than that because if you speak to him, you understand that he had different influences.

Unfortunately, often, our skin tone allows people to say, “This is all you could do.” But as you said, it's the lens that society has put on us; that we have to constantly say, “Hey, I’m going to take this away again. I’m going to show up again” because there's so many layers to who we are as people.

As people of color, we are complex. We are a person… I’m from the south. I don't know much else because I don't know all of my family history. You don't know all the things that make you up.

ROB
Right.

PHYLICIA
I think that what we have to continue to do as executives in this industry is push that envelope and show that these artists are happy to be black. Let's be clear. But they are not happy to be told that they cannot experiment and that their music cannot be [crosstalk - 34:15]--

ROB
Being black doesn't limit our capacity, our ability. It just means we're black. That's it.

PHYLICIA
That’s it.

ROB
That's it.

PHYLICIA
That’s it.

ROB
Yep.

PHYLICIA
Exactly.

ROB
That's all it means.

PHYLICIA
That’s all it means.

ROB
What advice do you have in terms of developing a brand or just being successful in particular? Are there any habits that you do that are just foundational to helping you be your authentic self, helping you be more successful? For example, part of me working out every single day is really, really important for me, trying to meditate in the morning, getting centered. I mean there are certain things that are institutional habits, I think, that help me become more successful. Do you have anything like that that are institutional habits for you that have guided your career?

PHYLICIA
Yeah. I definitely agree with exercise. I definitely agree with what you say in meditation which is something I started doing recently. I still want to do more of it. But also, I am very much into being part of thought leadership groups. I join a new group all the time because I want to hear perspectives and I think that is what keeps me at the pulse.

And some of these groups, I actually cannot announce. What I’m saying is that whether it's an entertainment group, whether it's a… What I’m trying to say is there's different thought leadership groups. Within that, they have different principles.

There's a group that I went on a trip with called “Reality” -- We all went to Israel. It was 2016 -- that I might not have taken. But I took that trip to be among music thought leaders that were in different disciplines.

I am the chapter advisor for the recording academy. When you're sitting there, you're hearing from different people in different genres, in different histories and disciplines of how they see music and how they understand music. And before I was an advisor, I was still in the membership committee. I was still in the Urban leadership committee.

What I’m saying is I join a lot of communities so that I can continue to enrich myself but also hear the stories in what's going on in the industry around me. It's hard to move and develop and grow when you don't understand what's going around you in different conversations.

So I pride myself on joining communities and organizations that allow me to have true dialogue, understand the real problems so we can find solutions, and hear from people who are not just me on the business side but the creative side because the creative conversation is much different than the corporate conversation.

ROB
Sure.

PHYLICIA
So it's important for me to align myself with different organizations. “She is Music…” When I was in New York, our friend started the [WHIN Academy - 36:55] which helped get young Black women into the business -- so kind of doing different pockets of leadership development, volunteering.

At Spelman, I brought back the entertainment summit with a group of 17 women because we wanted to say that, “We didn't have the easiest route to get to this job, and it still is not the easiest route, so how do we take the ladder and bring it back down?”

But when you talk about discipline and continue to evolve your brand, it comes from constant research. It comes from connections. It comes from challenging yourself to even get on this podcast which is not something that I can say that I’m used to doing. But in this situation--

ROB
I’m glad you did though. You're dropping some great knowledge.

PHYLICIA
Thank you. It’s not something that in my past which I don’t really do. As a publicist, you don't always speak. You're behind the scenes.

ROB
Right.

PHYLICIA
So in this role, I have been much more a person in front of the camera and having more conversations and dialogue. But what it does is [crosstalk - 37:49]--

ROB
You seem to be really good at it. It seems really natural to me.

PHYLICIA
Well you're very sweet, Rob. But those are the things I think that you do. You practice and it causes you to think. It causes you [to reflect - 37:59].

ROB
I learned to listen to a Spelman woman. I have a good one, too. [Laughter]

PHYLICIA
[Claps] And it causes you to reflect, you know. So I really say, just continue to kind of read and dialogue and be in groups and committees and join organizations that help me to [crosstalk - 38:14].

ROB
Spelman seems like it's very important to you. I know it's very important to my fiancé. The first thing I knew, when we met, I knew Spelman was very important to her. There's something really special about Spelman. I mean I’m not denigrating any of the other Black colleges. I don't want anybody to come after me.

PHYLICIA
We'll never do that. We'll never do that. But yes, Spelman is special.

ROB
Yes. But I just know… I’m probably partial… I am partial because I have a Spelman woman in my life but I haven't seen anything like Spelman and Morehouse, and I’ll put Howard in there, the pride I’ve seen and… What do you think that experience did for you to really help and set you up for success?

PHYLICIA
I think it goes back to the questions you kind of asked me early on about being authentic and knowing myself. I grew up in a predominantly white area most of my life so Spelman was that moment where you recognize it wasn't just you that had these questions about your identity, about how you show up and how you present yourself. So that gave me that battery in my back to be proud of all those things.

When you start to talk about the diaspora, you start to learn about the accomplishments of Black women in a very different way. You start to see how you are valued instead of devalued and how you are part of not only culture but a world being advanced and you want to be a part of that legacy. You don't want to leave those gates and say, “Wait a minute. I saw this happen--”

And whether you went to Spelman or not, once you learn about the legacy of Black women in the world and not just America and the impact that Black women have had on society then you want to be a part of that narrative in any way possible. It's not about having the biggest job title but it is about giving back and having service.

So if you don't leave Spelman not wanting to accomplish something and not wanting to give back then I can't imagine what your experience was like because the minute you take ADW, which is African Diaspora in the World, the minute you understand that blackness is not just right here, that it is global and not local, and that you can affect something on a large scale, there's no way that you don't want to take that with you in every place you go.

So I think, Rob, what you actually just answered the question for me again… So when I’m in these buildings, I’m like, “It's my job to bring a global conversation to this label, a global conversation and thought process to this artist and say, “You exist beyond the city that you grew up in. You have a chance to affect change across the world.”” So I think those are the parallels that kind of come with you.
ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
The reality of the conversation I think we're having now is that if you can change the world, why not? And if you can have people around you help change the world, if I can join these organizations that are changing the world and learn about them so I can continue to affect change then that’s [what we’ll do - 41:01].

ROB
Yeah. I am, I must admit, a little jealous of the experience of my friends who went to historically Black colleges. I visited Howard recently. I’ve been there a few times. I went there as an undergrad just to have fun. But I went back and just really tried to absorb it and just--

And the amazing things that were accomplished in the midst of so much hate, so much racism, so many obstacles -- we still have obstacles, of course but they were worse then. I mean they were much worse -- and to see what was accomplished in spite of that, and then beyond what you just said--

I’m part of a program at the University of Cincinnati called the “Emerging Ethnic Engineers.” When we first come in, we have… I think they borrow a lot from what historically Black colleges do. We took blacks in science and that really changed my perspective when I learned how the pyramids were built and what that… Those were Black people, right? You don't get that understanding in the world. So you have to literally unlearn what you've learned…

PHYLICIA
Exactly, Rob.

ROB
...so you can learn the truth and then that helps you give perspective. And it does help your self-esteem because you do have these questions like, “Well why is the world this way? How did this happen? Why is there not more of us and…” There is more of us. There has been. It is the understanding of history, understanding of perspective that can really inform you. So you're absolutely right.

I didn't get that full experience. I’m experiencing it through a third party. But I also respect and really, really love the passion and the excellence that I see out of Spelman. I have to say that as we kind of go to our lightning round here. -- What's an important truth you have that very few people would agree with you on?

PHYLICIA
You know, I had a hard time with this question.

ROB
It's a hard question.

PHYLICIA
What I was going to say, and I feel this way, is that it's the whole thing about work-life balance. The truth is there is no such thing as work-life balance. The truth is, is that you can have everything but you have to also trust the village around you, if that makes sense.

And the reason I say that is because as I am 42 and single and I think about the fact that I have not met the man that I’m going to marry yet -- or maybe I have and I don't know it -- that I can have that but I also will have a career. And finding the balance is I think where we… I don't say “we go wrong” because you definitely can have both things. But I think you have to trust that in having both things, one might take over the other. [Crosstalk - 43:49] there…

ROB
Okay.

PHYLICIA
…you have to allow the village to take effect.

I brought this up because I have a best friend… and I won't say her name. She is a top lawyer. She is married. She has a kid that just graduated from college, two young children, a dog… Like, she has all of those things. And the balance has been that she's resilient, she's beautiful. Her husband travels a lot for work. She has a nanny. She has all these things. She has everything but she's allowed the village to take ownership of their responsibility.

I’m trying to get to the fact that, where I sit… I have a lot of women and… I’m trying to say this for a reason. I have a lot of women in my position… When I say “position,” women that are my close friends that are in high positions at their company and they are also looking for, “Do I give up this to have this?” I guess what I’m trying to say is you don't have to give up anything but the balance might be off.

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
I think maybe you have to help me with this.

ROB
Yeah. One of my favorite books is... I forgot the author's name but it's called “Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less” and what he says in there is you can do anything but you actually can't do everything. In life, there's just trade-offs. There are no permanent solutions. There's just trade-offs. And he really gets to the point of--

Yes, I believe what you're talking about. You could certainly have a high-powered career and have a good relationship and have kids. The harder part, when you talk about balancing, it is figuring out what you're going to trade off.

Everything you say “yes” to, you have to also balance it off in your life [in] what you’re going to say “no” to because at the end of the day, you still only have so much time and you want to stay sane and you want to have some balance in terms of being able to just rest your mind because you won't be effective, otherwise.

PHYLICIA
Right.

ROB
I think it's a constant journey.

PHYLICIA
I actually want the book because I think those are the things that in my circle, as I get older, in my group chats, “How do we figure out what to get rid of,” to what you just said, understanding that you still want these things. But, again, you're going to have to sacrifice. There's going to have to be some things that don't work in this perfect bubble. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about this plan in this pathway of everything happening the way you want it to happen. And even if you do have these things, how you start to organize and prioritize in your life.

ROB
Well I would look at it this way, not that I’m giving advice here. You got to get the book. It’s a great book. He gives the comparison of going through your old closet. People hold on to things. They're like, “Maybe I want to wear this” but you haven't worn it in eight months. So it's better to get rid of it than to keep it because it's weighing you down.

Same things with the things that you do. There are a lot of things we do in our life -- and I’m guilty of all this -- that we don't have to say “yes” to but we feel obligated to say “yes” to.

He goes through like the three E’s. You do this for everything. You “Explore” a lot, actually. It doesn't mean you don't do something. You explore it. But the minute it doesn't align with your passion, your values, the next thing is you go to the next E -- you “Eliminate” it. And then for the very few, you “Execute.”

PHYLICIA
I love that. I love that.

ROB
Yeah, it's a great book. You should have it. All right, next question. “You have a committee of three, living or dead, to advise you in business, life, relationships, whatever you want to say. Who would these three people be and why?”

PHYLICIA
Okay. I’m very close to my mother and father so they're just going to have to be in my advisory board no matter what. But the three people -- Judy Smith. She is who scandal is designed, crafted. The whole show is about Judy Smith.

ROB
Oh wow.

PHYLICIA
I met her last year. She is a publicist. She is a crisis management expert. I find myself often being the “Olivia Pope” in certain situations. When you meet someone like her and you realize how much grace she has and her just presence -- she's very regal – and understanding situations… because there will be ebbs and flows in any situation. The same artist that you love may have a bad day. You may have a bad day. Your corporation may have a bad day. And there's always ways that you kind of have to [crosstalk - 48:27]--

ROB
You may have a bad year. 2020 is a bad year for a lot of people. – Go ahead.

PHYLICIA
[There are a lot of people who - 48:30] thought it was great. Some people have found…

ROB
Exactly.

PHYLICIA
…solutions and [crosstalk - 48:37].

ROB
No question.

PHYLICIA
So you never know. But it's something about that job – Judy Smith, the Olivia Pope character, that is a real person but also a real person in anyone's life. So I think having that person in your life is important.

Mellody Hobson--

ROB
Oh yeah.

PHYLICIA
She's amazing. She said something a while ago about when you walk into a room, if the room does not look… reflective of society then there's a problem and I think that is the reckoning that a lot of companies are coming to terms with is that the rooms don't look the way they should and they should have looked this way a long time ago.

So if you really want to grow now, if you really want your company to evolve, if you really want to be a better person, you're going to have to do a better job of making sure these seats look like what America really looks like, not this lens that you have decided it should look like but what it should really look like. And I think about that when I walk into certain rooms because it also kind of lets you know where you're going to be starting from; the conversations you’re going to have.

ROB
Yeah. And it's a good thing too, by the way, because I don't believe these companies do things because they're the right thing to do. It's the profitable thing to do. You will make more money, period. You’re a personification of that, right?

PHYLICIA
Hey.

ROB
There you go.

PHYLICIA
And then James Baldwin. I’m not sure if you saw “I Am Not Your Negro.”

ROB
I did. I just saw it.

PHYLICIA
Hooh! It’s one thing to just be prolific but everything he says shows you that history repeats itself…

ROB
Yeah.

PHYLICIA
…[inaudible - 50:17] and--

ROB
Well history hasn't left. As you said, history is now.
PHYLICIA
History is now.

ROB
History is right now. You can't have the present without the past and the two converged. I watched I Am Not Your Negro and that could have been written yesterday.

PHYLICIA
Yesterday. Yesterday, Rob. Yesterday. So there's something about that person and something about just a writer, someone who can see life through that lens and explain it that way. I’m always [crosstalk - 50:49]--

ROB
He was able to do it so well, right? He was able to really bring perspectives of Martin and Malcolm because people that are not studied think that they had a really large divergence. They really didn't. They were really close.

PHYLICIA
They’re really close. [Inaudible - 51:02].

ROB
They did it first and they came this way. He brought it full circle and to say like, “This is who we are as America and we have to…” And I love how it ended so spoiler alert. I’m going to say a lot of it. He said like, “America's trajectory is going to go based upon how it treats Black people.”

PHYLICIA
Period.

ROB
Period.

PHYLICIA
Period. You can see it. And that’s the same corporation [crosstalk - 51:25]--

ROB
And that's the same truth right now, isn't it? I mean you look at what's going on, and not to get too political, it's really easy to see. This country, if we don't learn to actually respect Black people as humans and humanize and make sure that we are really treated in an equal way… [Crosstalk] -- Go ahead.

PHYLICIA
No. I’m co-signing. I agree with you. I’m saying about “humanization.” That's the word I love the most.

ROB
Yeah, humanization and understand us as equals and give equity as you would to your fellow human, that is going to determine how far or… if we don't go far… Or if we implode, I do think that is the central--

I’ll just go down the rabbit hole for two seconds. When Russia did their information campaign, a lot of their focus was focused on racial resentment and racism. That was for a reason. They know that we’ll implode that way if we go after each other that way. That's why they did it.

PHYLICIA
Mm-hmm. And that seems to be everyone's tactic. That continues to be what Trump uses as his main foundation, his base, is what you just said and that is the reckoning, you know. Like [crosstalk - 52:33]--

ROB
And that's holding them back, too. I mean what it is is blinding everybody to that. That's what we're trying to get everybody to say. Like, “Take off the blinders.”

PHYLICIA
Yeah.

ROB
“Take off the blinders, please.”

PHYLICIA
[Inaudible - 52:43].

ROB
So final question. “You have a Google ad or a billboard that says your theme, your belief in life, a saying that you hold on to. What is that saying or theme and why?”

PHYLICIA
It still remains, “Show up as you are.” Every time I’m successful, it's because I showed up as I was. Any time I overthink it, even this interview, then I start to lose who I am. The minute I just say, “You know what? Just go with your gut. Go with what is on your heart” then everything tends to be okay.

Sometimes, you might have sleepless nights because you're getting ready for a presentation or you overthink what you want to say in a meeting. You're like, “Who's going to react?” But when you do that, you leave because it's something that [pressures - 53:24] inside of you because you didn't let that person out.

So what I’ve learned over time is the best Phylicia is the one that shows up as I am. I’m never not necessarily prepared because these are things that are in… What am I trying to say? These are things that are internal at this point. It's intrinsic to who I am. I know these things.

So instead of overthinking it, instead of trying to figure out the best way to pocket it so that it's palatable for someone else, I just have to be okay with understanding that you, showing up as you are, is the best person. Plus you earn the right to show up as you are. I have done enough. I have [crosstalk - 54:04]…

ROB
No more imposter syndrome. You deserve this.

PHYLICIA
…to be this person. Thank you. So that is probably the billboard, is just “Show up as you are.”

ROB
All right. Phylicia Fant, I really enjoyed having you on the show. It was great.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]