OPEN TRANSCRIPT

00:00
how I think we solve some of some of our
00:02
racial construct issues is to be more
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honest about the uncomfortable truth
00:08
about racism in this in this country
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where it is right now and how we got
00:14
here if you believe we can change the
00:16
narrative if you believe we can change
00:17
our communities if you believe we can
00:20
change the outcome then we can change
00:22
the world
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Rob referred to me welcome to disruption
00:26
now welcome to disruption now I'm your
00:29
host and moderator Rob Richardson we are
00:32
honored to have senior pastor of
00:34
crossroads my church Brian's home on the
00:38
show he's a man of many talents and what
00:41
I like about it most is that he's using
00:43
the Word of God in a method and a medium
00:47
that actually reaches people he's not
00:49
just relying on old methods to reach
00:51
folks and he has a lot of great content
00:53
out there he has a great podcast too
00:56
called the aggressive life I love the
00:58
title by the way and and crossroads I
01:02
think has been really similar to what
01:04
disruption is about disruption is about
01:06
disrupting common narratives it
01:07
constructs and I believe Crossroads
01:09
Church is one of the fastest largest
01:12
growing churches you probably don't like
01:13
to be called a mega church I don't know
01:15
what you want to call it but it's one of
01:16
the fastest growing churches in the
01:17
country and they they meet people where
01:20
that where they are at on their spirit
01:23
for journey and it's just an honor to
01:25
have them on the show Brian thank you
01:26
for coming on Rob it is a total honor to
01:30
be with you today and I think we're
01:33
gonna have fun I just in advance
01:35
I asked forgiveness for the stupid
01:37
things I say because as you know I am an
01:38
equal opportunity offender but I think
01:40
I'm most good I want you to be well I
01:44
think I'm most interested in you and I
01:46
just being just being honest and having
01:48
people just hear an honest race
01:49
conversation absolutely I'm looking
01:51
forward to it there is a major pandemic
01:54
in this country Brian and it's been hard
01:58
for some people to accept and understand
01:59
because they can't see it so they don't
02:02
believe it's real it's been something
02:04
that if you haven't gotten sick by it if
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you haven't been infected if you haven't
02:09
been affected by it if it's not
02:10
something that directly
02:12
your family people are able to to
02:15
pretend like it doesn't exist and I'm
02:17
not talking about Kovac 19 I'm talking
02:20
about racism and so we're able to people
02:23
are able to live in this world where
02:25
it's not real and and there there's a
02:28
there is a belief by people and I
02:30
understand the human reason why they
02:32
have this belief that racism is
02:34
something that is exaggerated that
02:36
doesn't exist or that you know just
02:39
those people of color or black people
02:41
are making up I think that's generally
02:43
kind of the symptom not necessarily kind
02:46
of the diagnosis I should say of the
02:48
situation of where we are in America and
02:51
what I believe I'm gonna break it down
02:53
and both like a spiritual and a
02:55
scientific point of view I believe we
02:59
have to be spiritually and
03:01
scientifically self-aware as believers I
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think that's part of our job and to me I
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think there there are two verses that
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really stick out in my mind the first
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I'm going to talk about is I think it's
03:13
most relevant is 2nd Corinthians 10 10 5
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and it says roughly this we demolish
03:20
arguments and every pretension that sets
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itself up against the knowledge of God
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and we take captive every thought and
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make it obedient to Christ there's a
03:30
whole lot in there that I believe
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applies to this I think the first step
03:34
to solving any real problem is
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understanding the problem and having
03:38
self awareness of the problem so self
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awareness is something people talk about
03:44
also that's the strong hold your tongue
03:45
but demolish that's strong that's the
03:47
strong hope that I think people have
03:49
that they don't understand because
03:52
racism as I described it in the way of
03:54
kind of how of the language of koban 19
03:57
because it's very similar in that people
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have been able to social distance
04:02
themselves from racism within their
04:04
circles and then when incidents like
04:08
this happen there's usually like oh well
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this is just that one rare incident and
04:13
this is unusual and it's not that bad or
04:18
what did that person do to deserve what
04:21
happened to them because that's you know
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if there's a lack of self-awareness
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right
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there's not an understanding that okay
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it's easy to take a shortcut in your
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mind about what you already believe so
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the fundamental let me say the fun of
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I'll let you go the fundamental of a
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question and I guess challenge I'm going
04:39
to put out there it's going to be very
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controversial but I'm gonna say it I
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believe everybody's racist and I have a
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reason for saying that and I will dive
04:48
more into that but I want to hear your
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point of view because I've been talking
04:51
a lot and I'm gonna go more into that
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because that's a loaded statement III
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think you're I think you pick up
04:56
something really good that especially I
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think white people need to understand
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that we do whenever there is a shooting
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of an African American whenever the
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somebody gets roughed up by an authority
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figure than African American there is
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always a search to find out what that
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person did wrong there's always uh-oh
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who okay that person got fired by their
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from their last job okay okay well the
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other than they deserved it that I mean
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it's like it's like we're looking for
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justification for why that happened
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instead of asking ourselves can I ever
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remember a black authority figure
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beating up a white person under
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questionable circumstances can I ever
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remember a white person ever saying that
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because of my race my life is harder I'd
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say no we don't have any of those
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stories yet we see that regularly in the
05:55
non-white community and anybody I know
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anybody I know who isn't white has
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stories to tell about how their skin
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tone hurt them Rob why don't you give us
06:08
a couple years I don't even know what
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they are but I sure he got him yeah I do
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not have too many of them but I wanna
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I'm gonna follow on your point every
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single particularly every single black
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man you know from the nicest one that
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smiles to the CEO to the construction
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worker all of them have had a bad
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experience at some point with law
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enforcement
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it's nearly universal all right so and
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everyone I think has what James Baldwin
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said he said like to be conscious and to
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be
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be black in America is to be constantly
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enraged all of them have some rage in
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them they do because it's been it's
06:45
difficult dealing with this day-to-day
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and and people not acknowledging that
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this is true like we are we are not
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making this up my first experience with
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police was in the sixth sixth grade I
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went to a place if people know this well
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called Britt would bowl and used to play
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video games that's how you know I'm
07:06
getting a little bit Oh because I used
07:07
to go go somewhere and play video games
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and arcade invaders destroyed yes right
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IV I went there and the manager didn't
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like me for probably because the color
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of my skin but you know I never let it
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bother me and and he kicked me out and I
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don't remember the reason it was some
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made-up reason I think I said some smart
07:29
awkward remark I did actually I said I
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think I said yes ma'am and I left right
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here like that and so he you said yes
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ma'am
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he said yes ma'am
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and so I said yes ma'am and it was a
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good man yes and I um and I left and
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then he called the police and said that
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I had threatened his life okay and then
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so I was across the street at United
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dairy farmers and then two cop cars pull
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up they pull out of the car they come in
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the store they look at me and I should
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say that I was with it was several
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friends all of which were white they
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pointed me said you know what you did
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you know grab me and put me in the back
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of the car and and then I'm in the back
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of the car and the officers are
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questioning me they're my friends run
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back to get my mother and my mother is
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obviously worried so she comes up and
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she said you gotta let my son's out of
08:29
the car why you not why didn't you take
08:30
his white friends if you thought there
08:32
was an issue and said well you're not
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taking my son either we're all going to
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jail or something so they ended up
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letting me go
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but that's the experience I had in sixth
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grade and so I and I've been pulled over
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a whole bunch of time just because I was
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a black man and had to be questioned
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stopped harass happened so many times
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that I have
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there's so many I couldn't I could be
08:54
here on the podcast just talking about
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that but what I want people to
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understand is as we talk about
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self-awareness and going back to that
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that that part of that Scripture it
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talks about demolishing arguments and
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pretensions those are arguments you have
09:07
about yourself pretensions which are
09:09
things you believe to be compelling when
09:13
people do or evil is allowed to happen
09:15
it's because people first convince
09:18
themselves that they are good evil
09:20
thrives when people convince themselves
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they are doing good and so they either
09:24
act with indifference or or they just
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let things occur and so one of the
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examples I go to is the book by
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Takahashi coats in there's this small
09:33
town in Pennsylvania and they write a
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letter to the government right during
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the times of Jim Crow and and right when
09:39
busing started and people started
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intervening and having opportunities to
09:43
live where they wanted to live and they
09:45
frame their argument like this we are
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good Christian people who always follow
09:49
the rules and do what's right do what's
09:50
right we just don't want black people in
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our area they connected the two together
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it didn't see a problem at all in that
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and I and I and I know we still have
09:59
that problem because one we don't we
10:02
don't we don't challenge ourselves to
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understand when I said everyone is
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racist what I meant by that is it is a
10:08
con struct it is a system that has
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infected and affected how everybody
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thinks including black people because
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black people actually feel just as
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sometimes even harsher away there's
10:21
black ratio there's black people have
10:22
racist issues absolutely know what I'm
10:27
talking about is they have on the racism
10:28
issues with black people like it's it
10:30
because the system is so said how do you
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mean by that racist black be what I mean
10:35
is that you know studies have shown
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black people are harder on other black
10:39
people because they believe the
10:41
stereotypes and the constructs that have
10:43
been put in people's head it is it is
10:46
such a it's just like I look at this
10:47
aesthetic it's like sin okay people are
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tell me that they're not racist is tell
10:52
it is like the same folks are saying
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like I'm a good person I can do it by
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myself I don't commit sin we are all
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prone to it and you have to work night
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and day to challenge yourself so that's
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the spiritual point I've mentioned
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there's books on this tooth
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getting fast and slow is a great book
11:07
resource on this your mind will always
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go in default to a shortcut and we've
11:12
learned we inherently learn by the
11:14
images we see you see on the media by
11:16
the circles we keep if we learn to
11:20
inherit and accept racism as a part of
11:23
our DNA and it's going to take time and
11:26
effort to go back to that verse to
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demolish those arguments and pre
11:29
tensions and then capture every thought
11:31
when you have those thoughts because we
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all have them do the things you just
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said earlier like is this something that
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I would do if this was my white friend
11:40
would I have that same view am i being
11:43
racist it takes that and that's very
11:45
uncomfortable which is why people don't
11:47
like to do it because people like to
11:48
think of themselves as good and that and
11:51
that leads them to a place where they
11:52
can't become self-aware so it's opening
11:54
yourself up to be vulnerable enough to
11:56
say yes I am racist because it's a
11:59
natural thing we're not talking about
12:00
violent racism like we saw with George
12:03
Floyd like that so that's a clear
12:05
example of something that's horrible and
12:07
it's violent but to prevent those things
12:09
it takes steps and make sure that we are
12:14
challenging the microaggressions never
12:15
challenging ourselves so it doesn't get
12:18
to a point where somebody can feel him
12:20
he was on tape just think about this for
12:22
a minute and then I know I've been
12:23
ranting for a minute but he was on tape
12:26
with his knee for nearly nine minutes
12:30
while people were pleading for his life
12:31
right he was pleading for his life with
12:34
it all pocket rockets hey no big deal
12:38
just chewing gum here right and if a dog
12:40
was treated that way I believe there
12:42
would have been more universe or outrage
12:44
right away then if a black man was
12:46
treated that way and the fact that he
12:48
felt comfortable enough and empowered
12:49
enough in our society to do that tells
12:51
me we have a very severe problem right
12:54
yes we do you know it's it's worth just
12:57
saying right now and I like talking
12:58
about authority figures because I think
13:03
the statistics are pretty clear I mean
13:05
people have darker skin tone skin tones
13:08
get a have a bit more difficult time in
13:10
the courtroom absolutely people have
13:12
darker skin tones have a more difficult
13:14
time being elected at least white people
13:17
electing or voting for somebody in the
13:19
darker
13:19
skintone and obviously we're just
13:21
talking about the some of the violence
13:24
that comes at police officers I just got
13:26
to go in the record from myself and say
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man I I'm thankful for police officers I
13:30
can I'm just gonna cut off the emails at
13:32
the legs here I'm gonna be getting them
13:34
I'm thankful for eat at police officers
13:36
first responders the vast vast vast
13:39
majority of all I've known are amazing
13:43
amazing amazing but that doesn't mean
13:48
there's a few bad eggs whatever
13:50
percentage it is you probably think it's
13:52
a higher percentage that I think it is
13:53
but but nonetheless we can't we can't
13:55
just we can't just not mention that
13:58
there's bad stuff happening in police
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departments any more than I can mention
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there's bad stuff happening at pulpits
14:03
they're preachers out there that are
14:05
just doing really harmful stuff and I
14:08
can't I can't get offended every time
14:10
someone gets upset of preachers I got to
14:12
be willing to go yeah yeah there's a lot
14:15
of us out there that are very you know
14:17
Unser League whatever the right thing
14:19
candidate is so I just encourage those
14:20
your first monitors we're gonna we're
14:22
probably not talking about you I'm sure
14:24
I love you just just please just try to
14:26
not take this so personally and just see
14:28
that we've got a macro system and I'm
14:30
for you that's what I would say to those
14:32
first response so and so am i and here's
14:35
the but here's the challenge in that as
14:37
Chris Rock has a has a really Chris Rock
14:40
has a really funny skin on this but it's
14:42
true sometimes comedy is a good way to
14:43
really talk about the truth
14:45
you said there are some professions that
14:46
can't have bad apples we can't we people
14:49
just don't accept pilots being bad
14:52
apples like oh we're fine having a pilot
14:53
come out getting drunk and then you know
14:55
it crashes and kills everybody no it's
14:57
not okay same thing with officers and
14:59
there's a lot of complexity to this that
15:01
I can get to I think officers should be
15:03
paid more basic they should be that they
15:06
should have more training but there also
15:08
has to be a higher level of
15:10
accountability and the fact is that 99%
15:13
of executions by officers or killings
15:17
that are not that I think often aren't
15:20
justified they're able to get away the
15:22
problem isn't that there's a bunch of
15:23
great officers and great first
15:26
responders that's without question the
15:29
issue is the system allows the bad
15:30
actors to stay there and it
15:32
and it reinforces and it continues to
15:34
defend bad actors out of some overall
15:38
sense of loyalty to officers so if you
15:41
take a stance to say you're against bad
15:44
officers suddenly you are against
15:45
officers which is also it goes back to
15:47
my earlier point having one being
15:49
self-aware and it goes to my next point
15:51
to challenging people who are within
15:54
your circle all right so because this
15:58
really helped me understand it because
15:59
I've never really understood Brian
16:01
why white people didn't understand the
16:05
privilege they have the power they had
16:07
but I was able to understand it you know
16:09
how I understood it through the me to
16:12
movement that's how I understood it and
16:14
I was talking to talk to a female
16:17
colleague about - and I said look it
16:19
seems like how things are being
16:20
described you guys are saying all men
16:22
are bad and all men are evil out there
16:25
you said no but all men have privilege
16:27
isn't that what they say about racism
16:28
and I got it for men for for sex sexism
16:31
to stop sexual violence men have to hold
16:34
other men accountable for racism to stop
16:36
we need more white people of good
16:38
conscience to hold other white people
16:40
accountable and that will make you
16:42
uncomfortable in your circles but I
16:43
think that's how we tackle this yeah I
16:46
maybe maybe we could find something you
16:48
and I disagree with so let's try
16:50
something right now to make this more
16:51
interesting podcast okay yeah thank you
16:54
daddy
16:54
okay well what white privilege here's
16:59
what I don't like about that term I
17:01
don't like about that term the
17:04
implication that if you're white you
17:08
haven't worked hard if you're white you
17:13
yeah you can just phone it in I I think
17:15
personally white advantage makes more
17:19
sense to me because I definitely have a
17:21
leg up as a white person to forbears it
17:25
but but white privilege I don't know
17:27
that that phrase just always bothers me
17:29
should bother me as much as it is right
17:31
now because I do believe in white I do
17:32
believe that it's easier for me the
17:34
black we talk about comedians Chris Rock
17:38
that's a very insightful one about we
17:41
need a hundred percent with pilots the
17:43
other one was on the white side was
17:45
Louis see
17:45
okay and he talks about he talks about
17:49
pieces being white is clearly superior
17:52
he says clear yeah I could I could come
17:56
to the world at any point in world
17:58
history as soon as I showed my time
18:00
machine they say oh welcome sir here's
18:02
your table at the very front row he says
18:04
you can't even hurt me what are you
18:06
gonna do you would have called me whitey
18:08
because ho that really hurt my feelings
18:10
called me cracker me that's it just
18:13
think bet on it
18:14
white privilege though I mean am i are
18:17
somos to sense about that or what do you
18:19
mean by weight privilege and use talk
18:20
about it
18:21
two things yes I do think white people
18:25
are very sensitive about it and I
18:27
understand why they are because the
18:29
natural default the shortcut in the mind
18:31
is to go towards what you just said it's
18:34
it's saying like oh why people don't
18:36
struggle
18:37
white people haven't had haven't had
18:39
discrimination white people haven't had
18:41
to work for what they have and that is I
18:46
think the wrong way to look at it
18:47
because it's about privileges being able
18:51
to have a totally different experience
18:52
than I have as I went to earlier no
18:55
matter what level like I've had I've had
18:57
more advantages than some of my white
19:00
counterparts that I grew up with I was
19:01
blessed enough to have parents that did
19:04
fairly well so I've been able to have
19:06
more opportunities that some of my white
19:09
counterparts did from a systems point of
19:12
view though that's not that's not that's
19:14
not always the same but I want it from
19:15
an individual I want to break it down to
19:17
a story point of view when you look at
19:20
how you and I have to talk to our kids
19:23
you don't have to have the conversation
19:25
with your son about how to deal with
19:29
police in order to live that's right
19:31
yeah right so it's a so the privilege in
19:34
that is something that you have power in
19:36
that I don't have got it it doesn't make
19:39
you better
19:39
it doesn't what it does is it puts you
19:42
in a position to look out for those who
19:45
don't have that power I don't have as
19:47
much power to check a white police
19:50
officer if I do that and when I'm pulled
19:52
over I might die but if my white friend
19:55
does it is a lot harder to it's a lot
19:57
harder to challenge the white friend
19:59
and and that's the only way we're going
20:01
to really go against this construct all
20:03
of it if I can say so all of it is
20:06
nonsense just to say like race is
20:09
nonsense at its core and I wish it
20:11
wasn't race is a construct that man made
20:14
up to divide people against one another
20:17
it is a social construct but but we have
20:20
to recognize the construct as is there
20:23
in in order to be able to tackle the
20:25
kind of the construct it's like if we
20:27
want to tell if we're if we're talking
20:29
to an alcoholic as a believe as
20:31
believers in Christ we can't tell them
20:34
to not acknowledge it and some people
20:35
think to deal with racism and I've heard
20:37
this argument I think Supreme Court
20:40
Justice Roberts said this and I'm always
20:42
saying this I think it's it reflects how
20:44
people feel and it sounds it sounds
20:47
right when you hear it but it's actually
20:49
wrong he said in order for us to talk to
20:53
solve racism we have to stop talking
20:55
about race that couldn't be more wrong
20:58
that's like saying in order to solve
20:59
alcoholism we have to pretend like we're
21:01
not an alcoholic like it exists it is a
21:04
real problem it is uncomfortable but not
21:07
acknowledging it makes it worse we have
21:10
a we have a program that we started a
21:12
crossroads really really led and
21:15
pioneered by Chuck Mingo called
21:18
undivided it's about us becoming one we
21:22
actually talked about racial
21:23
reconciliation and some would say we
21:26
can't be reconciled because we've never
21:27
been one we need racial unification
21:29
before we need racial reconciliation
21:30
reconciliation assumes we are one time
21:34
one we never we never have been and and
21:37
in that course which is about getting
21:39
people different skin tones in rooms
21:42
hearing about their experiences one of
21:45
the things that's gosh it's a I want you
21:48
to help me understand is many African
21:53
Americans who I talked to who are who go
21:57
through that they don't want to talk
21:59
about the racial difficulty of Hispanics
22:04
that at one time with the racial
22:05
difficulty of Chinese I mean right now
22:08
man I've got I got a friend who's like
22:11
Chinese Chinese both pair
22:13
and like it sucks to be her man because
22:15
every people were thinking okay cope at
22:17
19 she invented it she started Chinese
22:19
restaurants are getting crushed but I
22:21
find that a good percentage of African
22:24
Americans do not want to engage at all
22:26
on the other race conversations and
22:28
think their story is the only story why
22:30
is that oh that's such a great question
22:32
thank you for the question and there are
22:35
a lot of reasons for that the essential
22:38
reason is that traditionally and this is
22:40
not true in your case and how you talk
22:43
about it but people have used other
22:47
races to water down the story of what
22:50
actually happened and and to not really
22:53
address the core historic and just the
22:59
magnitude of things that really happen
23:00
and it's also been used to water down
23:03
solutions to it let me give you some
23:04
examples so when people deal with
23:07
minority inclusion you know oftentimes
23:10
everyone's included in that and then the
23:13
conversation gets excluded for African
23:15
Americans certainly if you look at the
23:16
numbers you know it'll people talk about
23:19
minority inclusion when you look at what
23:21
it is with African Americans it tends to
23:22
be very low but for others it's much
23:24
higher also universities have have used
23:27
that when they talk about addressing
23:28
otherwise ed what do you mean by that
23:30
minority Cluj is too low for African
23:31
American so this might make it easier to
23:35
understand let's take universities
23:37
universities in their inclusion numbers
23:39
will include Asians will include lots of
23:43
other people and at the end of the day
23:46
it's not the same but they will include
23:48
people that come from China
23:49
that might be very well-off in their
23:52
numbers and say look we're inclusive but
23:53
they've done nothing to really improve
23:55
things for African Americans so not that
23:58
we don't share a similar struggle the
24:01
problem is it tends to water down and
24:03
exclude what is happening to African
24:05
Americans and so that's been part of the
24:08
that's been part of the struggles so and
24:09
I think the reason for that and I was
24:11
going to get to this later but it's it's
24:13
a great it fits into this how I think we
24:15
solve some of some of our racial
24:17
construct issues is to be more honest
24:21
about the uncomfortable truth about
24:24
racism in this
24:26
in this country where it is right now
24:28
and how we got here because there we
24:30
talk about history and we deal with race
24:33
not in a way that really reconciles a
24:35
Brian in this country we try to just
24:39
move forward without context examples
24:42
South Africa had a race had a had a kind
24:45
of truth in Commission and they made
24:47
sure that they outlined all the horrible
24:49
things the government did Germany when
24:52
it dealt with the Holocaust everywhere
24:54
you go in Germany you will see where a
24:56
Jewish person was murdered what happened
24:58
in America we pretend like it didn't
25:01
happen
25:01
we run from it and people that come into
25:03
this country when they take the test
25:05
they become citizens they offer them a
25:07
multiple choice version of why the civil
25:11
war happened civil war happened because
25:12
of slavery and so we have not caused to
25:16
Estate's rights
25:17
it was states rights right you know we
25:19
don't have when people get a real
25:20
appreciation and I didn't have this
25:22
appreciation till I went to college and
25:24
started reading books of how horrible
25:27
and how much violence there was this was
25:30
just a hundred year anniversary just a
25:31
few days ago actually of the Tulsa
25:33
massacre when a whole city was wiped out
25:36
by the government almost embalmed and
25:38
those type and so that type of racial
25:40
violence in history happens a lot and
25:42
it's not appreciated so I think when
25:44
people combine the stories I think I
25:46
think it would be it would be easier in
25:50
the future if we deal with that because
25:51
I think actually dealing with that issue
25:53
will make us understand how we got to
25:55
the rest of the issues but I do agree
25:56
I'm not a person that's about the
25:58
oppression Olympics when people tell me
26:00
they're what they're going through I
26:02
figure out ways to build to build
26:03
bridges but I also understand again all
26:07
that rage that african-americans have
26:09
kept in and we've had to it's very very
26:12
very hard and we haven't dealt with it
26:14
and I think once we deal with it
26:16
and actually tell the truth go through
26:18
the truth and embrace the truth in all
26:20
of our schools instead of running from
26:21
it it will go a very long way that's
26:24
correct that's excellent so I think that
26:30
I think what is tiring about this
26:34
conversation for me Rob is that it it
26:39
hasn't gone away
26:40
it's not going away because obviously we
26:43
have systemic problems systemic problems
26:46
but it's also like I longed for more
26:50
more more tangible concrete things to do
26:55
you know like if you're if you're
26:57
pro-life which I am I was I was adopted
27:01
so that's four people are adopted it's
27:04
pretty it's like oh man I'm glad my mom
27:06
chose to adopt me instead of abort me
27:09
it's very it's very personal but if I'm
27:12
really passionate about that there's a
27:14
playbook that people have been doing
27:16
right you you elect certain people you
27:18
march in front of clinics which I've
27:20
never marched in front of a clinic or
27:21
anything like that but there's a plan
27:23
it's a playbook if you do what's what's
27:25
that what's the playbook for eliminating
27:27
this and getting to a new place another
27:30
great question
27:31
and and since you went there I want to
27:34
tie in I think people have to recognize
27:36
the problem at the beginning and I keep
27:39
going back to that and then divorce it
27:42
from your identity this is what I mean I
27:45
have a lot of good I have a lot of
27:46
conservative friends who are advocates
27:48
for racial justice and what we've done
27:51
in this country and we'll talk a little
27:53
political is that things have been so
27:54
divided that it's like okay if I'm
27:56
pro-life it means they have to support
27:58
all of this nonsense that is going on
28:00
politically and while I want to get
28:02
people to is that look the two aren't
28:04
tied together you can be pro-life for
28:06
small government and all those things
28:08
and still stand up a couple things we
28:11
can do we can work to end mass
28:12
incarceration mass incarceration is
28:14
costing us a lot of money cost us a lot
28:17
of opportunities and it creates all
28:18
types of racial divides we can make sure
28:21
we speak out when we see excessive
28:23
police force and fight for
28:24
accountability and things to actually
28:27
make sure those things happen they start
28:28
you just use a buzz word you just buzz
28:30
buzz worth it yes a lot of us a lot of
28:32
us white used to understand a massive
28:34
mass incarcerate mass incarceration so
28:37
you want to stop sending people to jail
28:39
who commit crimes what are you saying
28:41
with that yeah because that's what
28:43
people hear you're right they hear mass
28:45
incarceration is saying you want to make
28:46
you want to let criminals go no I want
28:49
to have a system that is
28:51
equitable that works in the United
28:53
States of America we put more people in
28:57
prison than anywhere else in the world
28:59
by far we're talking about China we're
29:02
talking about Russia people that have
29:04
way more citizens some that are
29:06
totalitarian governments yet we have
29:07
more people under the control of the
29:09
criminal justice system and I believe
29:12
racism as you said has morphed so it
29:14
went from Jim Crow and now we have mass
29:16
incarceration give you an example when
29:20
we approached the opioid crisis people
29:22
viewed it the right way they viewed it
29:24
as as a health care issue as a
29:27
compassion issue and that's how we
29:30
should solve it we can't always look to
29:32
just lock people up that's not going to
29:35
solve the issue of drugs crack cocaine
29:38
when that era happened when the people
29:40
were very different the approach was
29:42
extremely different
29:42
it was figuring out how we can lock as
29:44
many people away as possible and we and
29:47
we had we created laws that allowed all
29:50
types of overstepped if people had any
29:52
idea of what an African when African
29:55
Americans go through in this current
29:56
moment as we speak I I've heard a lot of
29:59
white Americans for the first time say
30:00
we're not we're not a police state why
30:02
are they doing this why they saw a young
30:05
white woman from her porch get shot by
30:07
one of the rubber bullets because she
30:09
had a camera out on her own porch and
30:11
the stories happened over and over again
30:13
it's happening to lots of white people
30:14
now people are saying it's not a police
30:16
state they can't do this I got a news
30:18
flash anywhere in America you live in a
30:20
black community there is no Fourth
30:21
Amendment rights they do not exist for
30:24
black for a black man a police officer
30:27
could come and pull you over and search
30:28
you because they just believe so that
30:30
shouldn't be so in America in a place
30:32
that we say we value these freedoms when
30:35
we look at the Second Amendment it's not
30:36
applied the same way falando castile
30:39
also from Minnesota was shot by an
30:42
officer for telling the officer he has
30:45
he has he has a weapon and he's going to
30:48
show him his uh his paperwork keeps kill
30:51
for that on tape and so we can be an
30:55
advocate you can be an advocate if you
30:57
believe in the Second Amendment and you
30:58
saw that happen you should have been out
31:00
in the streets too if you're if you're
31:02
if you're upset with the police state
31:03
we've had a police state and we've
31:05
accepted this because it's happened to
31:06
people of color the reason most people
31:09
are in jail because of drug crimes not
31:11
because more African Americans don't
31:13
they don't commit more crimes and drugs
31:15
they're not more drug dealers
31:17
african-americans tend to do drugs at
31:19
the same rate as the population about
31:21
thirteen to fourteen percent they're
31:23
about I think anywhere 35 to 38 percent
31:25
of those in jail then Latinos make up a
31:28
good amount - that's because people are
31:30
being targeted and it's costing an
31:32
opportunity it's costing lives and it
31:34
cost a whole lot of money well it's not
31:35
just they're being targeted it's the the
31:37
studies have been done if you have a if
31:40
you have a judge and a you know a black
31:43
person comes before having a bag of weed
31:46
and a white person comes before I'm
31:47
having a bag of we the black person gets
31:49
sentenced more harshly you know there's
31:51
no question so what just the way this 13
31:54
times more likely to be I think to get
31:57
to get a harsher sentence if you if
31:59
you're a person of color it's it's
32:00
that's the last time I think I saw the
32:02
stats and it's it's real and why that
32:04
matters is you know firstly you're
32:06
putting people away that shouldn't be
32:07
put away we're making better I think
32:10
that makes people likely to to be more
32:12
likely to be criminals we have to have a
32:15
system that works in other countries
32:16
don't do this so there's a way to
32:18
approach policing and criminal justice
32:21
reform that is more not only more humane
32:23
that is more effective in actually
32:26
preventing crime so I think when people
32:27
look at themselves as pro-life they
32:29
shouldn't want to see an innocent person
32:31
go to jail and then when and then when
32:34
you look at yourself as pro humanity as
32:35
a Christian even the people have done
32:38
crimes and once they've served their
32:40
time what's the goal here we got to make
32:42
sure that they can be reintegrated and
32:44
oftentimes they don't get a chance to be
32:46
reintegrated and then that makes better
32:48
criminals so it or that makes them feel
32:50
hopelessness so mass incarceration is a
32:53
major problem that is unique to the
32:55
United States of America and we can't
32:57
solve that we just we need more
32:59
advocates and this shouldn't be a
33:01
political issue there are Republicans
33:03
that believe this and see this and we
33:05
need everyone else to see it too and
33:07
what what I want to see is more my
33:09
brothers and sisters who are Christians
33:11
not just say they're not racist but to
33:14
be more anti-racist
33:15
to make sure they're standing up for
33:16
mass incarceration to make sure we're
33:18
standing up to hold to have police
33:21
accountability for the system we're not
33:22
talking about bad officers we're talking
33:25
about having a system that promotes good
33:28
officers and gets rid of the bad ones
33:29
quickly these things can't be done and
33:33
for it to happen it's going to it's
33:35
going to require our Christian brothers
33:36
and sisters to be more like Christ
33:38
Christ was Christ Christ Christ
33:40
turned-over tables he was uh he was a
33:42
fighter he was a disrupter well that's
33:45
good that's your podcast is called the
33:47
disruption disruption now I feel guilty
33:53
Rob because we're this adjoint podcast
33:56
but I keep at I keep taking short asking
33:58
you questions so you want you don't ask
34:00
me questions or say anything to me this
34:02
is a this is this has been good I'm
34:05
curious to see do you think that there
34:08
is a disconnect in the white evangelical
34:11
community and if so what when it comes
34:18
to let me be clear when it comes when it
34:19
comes
34:19
okay do you think there's right
34:20
disconnect to the role of the church we
34:25
back it up yeah yeah I have a better
34:27
question all right don't look it's a
34:29
good question I just want to give an
34:30
evangelical it's all yeah yeah I would
34:32
say this often it's been the role of
34:35
black churches to address systemic
34:38
racism to talk about issues what do you
34:41
think more white pastors and
34:44
evangelicals should do to stand up to
34:48
really have to really see long-term
34:50
change in this area this is good I think
34:53
Rob we've got a number of things that
34:55
are changing right now first of all when
34:57
someone asked me hey are you an
34:58
evangelical I go wow I don't know man
35:01
you have to define evangelical you
35:03
evangelical used to be when I say used
35:05
to be I mean back in high school and I
35:06
came and came to faith used to be you
35:08
believed in the you believed in the that
35:11
Jesus was supposed to be in somebody's
35:13
life that was about what that's about
35:15
and then like every political thing
35:17
start being put on and you got a and you
35:19
got to believe the earth is 6,000 years
35:21
old and you've got to believe in all of
35:22
us so if someone say are you yo Johnson
35:25
wanted to find that first but so I think
35:27
that um
35:28
I think that for those who are white
35:32
conservatives in the church which which
35:34
for the most part are the only people
35:36
who go to church anymore you know it's
35:39
it's it's really interesting that these
35:40
are bitter white I'm talking about I
35:42
mean that the more quote-unquote liberal
35:45
denominations that have been so liberal
35:47
on you know defining sex different ways
35:50
and defining the they're basically
35:52
irrelevant like no one goes those
35:54
churches right I mean they're there
35:55
they've been in massive massive decline
35:57
massive decline so when you talk about
35:59
white people who are in churches you're
36:01
generally talking about people who are
36:03
somewhat conservative at least in their
36:06
understanding of classic Bible doctrines
36:08
yeah I think I'm seeing more change
36:13
right now Rob that I have with anything
36:15
before I'm seeing man I just that how
36:22
this is this is really awful this is
36:24
just really awful to say but it it might
36:28
be the legacy that George Floyd did more
36:32
to bless the cause of racial inequity
36:35
than anybody did he may end up being the
36:40
Jesus of the race movement yeah because
36:46
he for the average conservative white
36:49
person who has some racist tendencies
36:51
and and doesn't want to see that the
36:55
white systems that support us could be
36:57
wrong we just we got we have a dog in
36:59
the fight right right to overlook things
37:01
right
37:01
well the effort looked at that like I
37:04
can't I did I just can't explain out one
37:07
way I can't do it so I think that
37:10
there's been also a kind of a chipping
37:13
away at this if you look back at Promise
37:14
Keepers which is a men's movement back
37:16
in the 80s had a big huge platform of
37:19
racial racial reconciliation and so
37:23
there's been a bunch of it so I think
37:24
there's been a chipping away that's been
37:26
happening for decades but not much
37:27
movement I think on this one I'm I'm
37:30
hearing people be upset and talking
37:32
about it who we've never talked about
37:33
before I'm sure I have frankly I'm
37:35
shocked like with the blackout that
37:36
happened the other day
37:38
I didn't find out about till 7:00 the
37:41
morning and someone staff said
37:42
absolutely so I type stuff that I'll put
37:44
it out there I was shocked by some of
37:46
the people who I saw
37:47
church leaders of white mega pastors
37:49
white white mega churches who had a
37:51
black out their thing I was like there
37:53
is no freaking way that guy would have
37:55
done that five years it's pretty awesome
37:57
yeah so I guess that's that's about this
38:00
is an opportunity I think to challenge
38:03
people as we said earlier I think you
38:06
know you can't grow and be comfortable
38:08
and well I believe well I believe this
38:10
happened in this moment because you and
38:12
I don't believe in coincidences we
38:13
believe in God I think this happened at
38:15
a moment where everybody had to be home
38:17
everybody had to see it to make us pay
38:20
attention to the inequities to make sure
38:23
that people really understood that this
38:26
is this is serious we have to remember
38:27
George Floyd was a series of tragedies
38:31
like this in the last few weeks yes
38:33
right this is not like s that we caught
38:36
on tape Ahmad Aubrey just jogging down
38:38
the street he was thought to be a
38:39
suspect it wasn't even police officers
38:41
random people that pull pulled him over
38:43
God and killed him for jogging and here
38:47
is the outrageous part I'm just laughing
38:50
I'm glad my self because like I could
38:51
hear the white people just describe this
38:53
discredit every situation you can't
38:55
discredit these things you can't and
38:57
that's why I think God is saying listen
38:59
look and what you saw happen in that
39:02
Ahmad Audry case that I want to point to
39:04
that we have to change is that no one
39:06
was going to be charged
39:07
no one was it was two months that
39:10
existed for two months people they were
39:12
the tape was out there and the person
39:14
who taped it thought he was thought that
39:17
would clear him that tells you how
39:18
infected we are right now with racism
39:22
the cloud that that is put over people
39:24
and we have a lot of work to do my hope
39:27
is that people will see the challenge
39:28
what do you see we'll see this moment
39:31
and rise to the challenge what are the
39:33
push backs you get you know behind
39:35
closed doors when you know you're
39:37
talking to white conservatives or it
39:40
doesn't even I want to say this because
39:41
there are just as many races liberals as
39:43
there are conservatives they just talk
39:44
differently about it
39:45
that's my here's why because you look at
39:49
all the city I can say this right now
39:51
and I think this is something I can say
39:52
this as a person who's a Democrat it
39:55
matter when you look at these we look at
39:57
these cities they are failing too so you
40:00
know they're they're putting people on
40:01
the left liberals that talk about it but
40:03
the result is the same so at the end of
40:05
the day your intentions you I've heard
40:07
you say this before at Crossroads it god
40:09
doesn't measure you by intentions he
40:11
measured you by what you do we get
40:13
measured by our fruit and the fruit on
40:15
both sides to me are failing on this so
40:17
my hope is that this becomes that that I
40:21
know this is Pollyannish and it's
40:22
probably not that happened immediately
40:23
but at least in this moment racial
40:26
justice should not be the political
40:29
issue that shouldn't be in your
40:30
political context that shouldn't be how
40:33
you tie yourself to something and you
40:35
have to be willing to challenge people
40:37
so we need to challenge Republicans if
40:39
you're a Republican and you are
40:40
conservative and you hear this nonsense
40:42
this is not what conservatism is like
40:45
and we have to be able to challenge that
40:47
and when liberals don't do it you
40:48
challenge them too but people have to be
40:50
willing to challenge themselves and in
40:52
their circles so my question what
40:54
pushback do you get particularly when
40:56
you're dealing with white folks and how
40:59
do you approach the conversation when
41:01
you talk about these things well what I
41:04
get the two ones I get the most
41:06
frequently is whenever I talk about it
41:09
I'll be up you accused of guilty white
41:10
man syndrome
41:11
I get that one very regularly and then
41:15
the next thing the other thing I get was
41:17
you know criticizing first responders so
41:21
I've got to go back and say no I don't
41:24
feel guilty for what I have that's not
41:27
why I feel these ways and and what we
41:29
said earlier about I love our police
41:32
officers but there's a percentage of
41:34
them that's bringing pain so I got I got
41:36
I have this conversations again again
41:38
and people will people will bring those
41:40
objections up and I say how do you even
41:44
bring that up I don't I can't understand
41:46
what the what the hell I just said it
41:50
would make you think that I believe that
41:52
there it's like they're just looking for
41:55
some reason to be offended the other the
41:57
other thing that it's just such a bummer
42:00
Rob and I'm sure you feel the same way
42:03
is you know when the when the looting
42:07
starts
42:08
and when you know when people are you
42:11
know breaking windows and so it's it's
42:14
like the it's like the discredit card
42:18
immediately it's like I have my mind to
42:20
open to a racial conversation I saw and
42:22
and then when that happens it's like
42:23
okay wash my hand forget it this is this
42:25
is ridiculous and they just they just
42:27
opt out and that's that's what bothers
42:29
me about the violence and destruction
42:33
that's happening in the wake in our in
42:36
our cities it suggests that those are
42:38
business owners and people who are
42:40
hurting but it's our conversation it
42:42
does it totally does it it gives people
42:44
who were empowered those who are white
42:47
it gives them or us a
42:50
get-out-of-jail-free card for why should
42:52
we shouldn't be talking about this we
42:53
should we talk about how they're
42:54
destroying personal property yep and and
42:57
that's a that's a good point
42:59
you know dr. King brought it up often
43:01
but the part that folks don't focus on
43:04
with dr. King is you know when you
43:07
talked about people coming together and
43:08
I want to have a conversation about
43:10
reconciliation and unity you know dr.
43:13
King I'm gonna paraphrase him but he
43:16
says you know peace is not the absence
43:17
of tension it's the presence of justice
43:19
and I would say unity is not about the
43:22
absence of tension it's the presence of
43:24
justice and it's the truth and so folks
43:28
want to be in a situation where they
43:29
feel comfortable like looting is wrong
43:31
no one's defending that but I want
43:33
people just to sit back and think about
43:35
how folks viewed the same people how
43:38
they viewed protesters who aligned with
43:41
the person in the White House and they
43:44
were you know protesting about koban 19
43:48
with ar-15s a lot of times yelling in
43:51
people's face and house somehow we
43:54
managed to you know no officer managed
43:56
to go overboard no one no one no one got
43:59
shot wait you're saying of a black
44:01
person had an ar-15 out in public that
44:03
he would be given a hard time I find
44:06
that hard to believe
44:07
yeah yeah just a little bit right I mean
44:08
if the protesters for the most part but
44:11
most part the protesters are peaceful
44:13
but if protesters in mass were coming up
44:15
in ar-15s imagine what the narrative
44:19
would be the narrative then
44:20
when when those protests happened where
44:23
these were the most American people the
44:24
the narrative now is we need to shoot
44:25
the looters and another point I want to
44:27
make is that that how people even view
44:31
that Brian if your view is it's horrible
44:34
that black men are being executed but
44:37
why you guys destroying property versus
44:39
it's horrible that people are destroying
44:41
property but we got to stop the killing
44:43
of black men people are prioritizing the
44:46
wrong thing like it's looting is bad but
44:49
that's that's not the problem the
44:51
problem goes back to the lack of Rastus
44:55
and so getting people to understand that
44:57
so that's my question so how do you
44:58
respond when they say that stuff and
44:59
they say those things what is your
45:03
response I which thing's guilty white so
45:07
when people make the short cut in their
45:09
brain that oh okay as soon as they get a
45:12
get out of free jail card whatever that
45:14
is it's the the looters now and before
45:17
it's the this person is what I call not
45:19
the perfect victim they smoked weed ten
45:21
years ago so he must have been a
45:23
criminal or like when Trayvon Martin was
45:25
walking down the street with skittles
45:26
somehow people justified it cuz he had
45:28
gold teeth so he must he must have been
45:29
doing something wrong how do you tackle
45:32
that when people make that was clearly a
45:35
shortcut in their brain to reinforce the
45:38
beliefs they already have yeah what I
45:39
what I do is I say okay just imagine for
45:43
a moment that that person was white then
45:47
how would you interpret let's just
45:48
imagine for a moment you had a
45:50
skinny-ass arm - black cop that had his
45:54
knee on the neck of a muscular white man
45:57
for ten minutes
45:59
pleading any choked out okay just what
46:02
how would you feel then just imagine
46:06
just imagine if you were unjustly
46:10
treated and you were gathering down in
46:13
the middle of a city how would you
46:16
interpret I just keep trying to put that
46:19
on the other place because again for
46:21
those people who look like me we can't
46:24
imagine a black authority figure giving
46:28
us a hard time it's never happened it
46:31
really happened once in Minnesota by the
46:33
way because the
46:34
an officer of color shot a young white
46:38
woman and guess what the defense was he
46:40
went to jail it's one of the few times
46:41
officer went to jail you can look up
46:42
this case and the defense
46:44
not-not-not the defense the
46:46
prosecution's case against the officer
46:49
was how can this young woman and in a
46:52
pink shirt be seen as a threat that will
46:54
never be the case that you could never
46:55
use that as an argument for black men
46:57
because we're inherently seen as a
46:58
threat hmm yeah so it's I mean to Europe
47:02
we'll have another question to your yeah
47:05
that one had fire lighting some
47:06
bring-bring some conflict in this week a
47:07
little bit it got it we're green too
47:09
much all right look ugly you shave your
47:15
you shave your head because you have
47:16
receding hairline your head so big it's
47:18
a five head all right
47:20
so I think one of the challenges I I
47:24
struggle with in that makes me kind of
47:27
upset but you may agree with with white
47:29
people when they say two points one
47:32
white black people erases all the time
47:35
reverse racism and it's kind of it
47:37
exists on both sides and I see both
47:39
sides doing this what's your thoughts on
47:42
that generally then we'll I'll have some
47:44
follow-up questions well I I know that
47:49
there's I know that race exists on all
47:53
sides I I haven't if I have experienced
47:59
it then I I can't recall
48:01
I don't yeah I think the only time I
48:04
ever feel race on the opposite side is
48:08
when a black person doesn't believe my
48:13
views on race are appropriate like
48:16
they're all there is a political
48:18
correctness thing that's coming in here
48:20
right now and part of it talked about
48:21
that talked about that talked about the
48:23
political correct okay I'll give you one
48:24
so I'm on a we've got oh I don't know
48:29
what it it we I have a text thread that
48:31
has 15 senior staff members across a
48:35
bunch of them one text that has 15
48:37
senior staff people cross roads of that
48:42
15 and that group I want to say there's
48:45
four people are in that
48:48
conversation that are black there's an
48:51
Asian in that in that group there's you
48:53
know so we spent a lot of time just
48:56
saying how you feelings - open up beans
48:58
how you feel and we feel you you know
49:00
and and and those are black or
49:01
justifiably semana this I'm just tired
49:04
this isn't happening again and again I'm
49:06
tired I can't believe this is dredging
49:09
up old stuff again and again and again
49:10
it comes up right we're talking about
49:12
that self so I had a one of the guys
49:14
who's white texted the whole group
49:17
yesterday he said hey I'm just um I'm
49:20
just feeling a little uncomfortable
49:22
about weird this conversations and then
49:25
where this conversation is going and
49:27
it's getting into some political some
49:29
political stuff that I I'm not sure that
49:32
I agree with which was number one
49:34
incredibly courageous of him to say that
49:37
because at that point although all the
49:39
conversation had been empathized and we
49:41
needed to do something about this all
49:43
this stuff which it should be and it was
49:45
24 hours in like who is cricket's
49:48
response and so I caught her buddy out
49:50
and said what why is that one responded
49:52
he why is a white guy not allowed to
49:55
share how he's feeling
49:56
why is a white guy not allowed to share
49:58
his his that are are only people who are
50:01
not white the ones able to process their
50:03
feelings and emotions so that I don't
50:06
think that's good I think white people's
50:08
emotions they may are they're
50:10
misinformed very very frequently but I
50:13
think we need to be hearing from white
50:14
people as well well I it goes back to my
50:16
earlier point we can't I don't think we
50:19
can solve the problem unless other white
50:20
people are willing to step up and if we
50:22
have somebody in good faith that is
50:23
telling us why they believe that that
50:25
needs to be explored so tell us and why
50:28
do you believe that why is this why is
50:30
this a political conversation is the for
50:33
because we're not asking you to vote for
50:35
somebody's gonna raise your taxes right
50:36
was that what we talked about that's not
50:38
that's not the equation here in fact we
50:40
need people that are conservative to say
50:42
this is what as a conservative we
50:44
believe in we believe because I can make
50:46
arguments about how this is a
50:48
conservative based argument for equality
50:50
we don't need a big police state we
50:53
don't need mass incarceration that's
50:54
limited government to me so right now if
50:57
I'm pro-life
50:58
I believe in pro-life and making sure
51:01
that people are innocent
51:02
the executed so anyway what I'm trying
51:04
to say is that having the conversation
51:06
if he said let's exploring that because
51:08
that is important to people to express
51:11
when they feel a certain way and then
51:13
because there's always validity in
51:15
people's perception it doesn't mean that
51:17
they're right it means that they have
51:19
this feeling there's a reason why they
51:22
have it and exploring that deeply and I
51:25
think if we if we can make them
51:26
understand that how does this align with
51:30
your beliefs as a Christian or is this
51:32
more of a belief of something that
51:33
you've been programmed to believe as
51:36
part of your identity but it's not a
51:37
part of Christ I have no idea what his
51:39
point was I'm gonna find out but I don't
51:43
I wonder if it's tight it's tight my
51:45
guess is that's not surprising to me a
51:47
lot of people see race because the
51:51
powers that be have made race a
51:53
political issue and instead of what it
51:56
is this is should be a humanity and a
51:58
moral issue and we can see these things
52:01
that way it'll be easier because that is
52:03
tied up into who we are and so we it
52:05
goes back to the earlier conversation of
52:07
not addressing the true nature of what
52:10
happened with racism in this country
52:11
what is happening and people realize
52:13
that and they realize that is not
52:16
aligned with who they are
52:17
but people are so this is this is white
52:20
people black people people want to
52:22
believe that they are good people they
52:24
want to protect the identity of what
52:26
they built up in their own brain so
52:28
they're always going to go back to that
52:29
so the both sides thing though I want to
52:31
get to that as we get ready to go
52:32
towards the end here now both sides
52:34
thing is that what I what I wanted to
52:36
get at is to see if you would kind of
52:39
address is I don't think I think I think
52:42
you can anybody can hate I view racism
52:45
as a different thing I do racism as a
52:48
construct that that where its
52:51
application and laws apply different to
52:54
people of color simply because of the
52:56
color of their skin
52:57
so I don't think I don't think reverse
53:00
racism exists in terms of that I think
53:02
reverse prejudice and prejudice can
53:04
exist I think people can hate others
53:06
based upon who they are in the color of
53:09
their skin but I see racism as a system
53:11
and I think that's hard for a lot of
53:13
white people to see you have
53:15
disagreements in that is there some or
53:17
other point you'd like to bring I would
53:20
I would have that I would have scratched
53:21
my head at that robbed 15 years ago they
53:25
talked about systems of injustice how to
53:27
scratch my head and honor so I got a
53:30
question for you girls yeah I understand
53:32
it now yeah but here's the question for
53:33
you here's what I think would help folks
53:35
let's say let's talk you got a note to
53:38
your younger self about this right now
53:41
okay that would have scratched her head
53:43
fifteen twenty thirty years ago whenever
53:45
it was take herself to that moment and
53:48
what would you tell your younger self
53:51
now I would touch you know I would tell
53:53
my younger self just like you shouldn't
54:00
come to convictions on geology until you
54:05
talk with geologists don't come to
54:09
conclusions on race until you talk to
54:12
and have genuine friendships with a
54:15
bunch of people who don't look like you
54:17
because until you know people who don't
54:19
look like you you don't know the racial
54:22
situation in our country it doesn't
54:24
matter what philosophies you have
54:26
doesn't matter how many well-educated
54:28
people you read Bruyne tome you've got
54:32
to get some friends with different skin
54:34
tones genuine friends and you've you've
54:37
got to understand their lens of
54:39
perspective before you have any clue
54:41
what's going on
54:42
I completely agree you have to be
54:44
comfortable being uncomfortable that's
54:46
how you move forward that's how you grow
54:47
as a Christian that's how you grow
54:49
spiritually and I really appreciate this
54:51
conversation and really uh Brian hope we
54:53
can do this more you've been a great
54:54
you've been a great guest I've really
54:56
enjoyed the conversation it's been great
54:58
Rob this has been it has been good I I
55:01
appreciate your candor and your your
55:03
generosity of wisdom I'm wondering if at
55:06
least for here in the aggressive life if
55:08
we could end this the way I do other the
55:10
way I do other podcasts that is with a
55:12
lightning round are you ready for a
55:13
lightning round I am I am I have to do
55:16
my lightning round for you too then
55:17
that's good I have one too that's okay
55:19
go first it's not white lightning that'd
55:21
be two rays not white light they just
55:22
just like all right I got a lady round
55:27
to you
55:27
first me next go it could be a different
55:29
lightning round because I'm just making
55:31
this up as we go you and I got to go
55:33
ping-pong back and forth back and forth
55:37
one sentence things to do to improve
55:42
racial the racial situation in our
55:44
country and we'll see who times out
55:46
first you're probably going to win but
55:49
that'd be fine okay all right so first
55:51
lightly right here goes look at your
55:56
look at your text thread and see if one
56:01
of the last 20 people you've texted with
56:03
is a race other than yours learn history
56:06
in a way that challenges you and makes
56:08
you uncomfortable particularly from a
56:10
point of view that's not written by the
56:12
majority next time you send a thumbs up
56:17
emoji use the thumb color that's
56:22
different than yours every time you
56:26
think to yourself that I'm not a racist
56:29
understand that that Intel makes you
56:33
more likely to be vulnerable challenged
56:35
every single thought about racism and
56:37
don't ya that's almost that's not
56:40
lightning robbed your self you gotta
56:42
sermonize you started serving I can't
56:44
help it yeah ask somebody who looks
56:47
different from you what movie you should
56:50
watch parenthetical statement not part
56:53
of lightning round you did this with me
56:55
you know a two year it was two years ago
56:57
Outta Compton oh yeah I had zero zero
57:01
interest in Outta Compton zero and I
57:05
enjoyed that movie got a lot of it so
57:06
thanks that's my next one how about you
57:08
challenge your circle when you hear and
57:11
you and you hear things and see things
57:13
that you know are not right challenge it
57:15
even if it's uncomfortable crap
57:20
you're probably gonna win thank you it
57:26
alright go go to somebody with a
57:29
different skin color and just ask them
57:33
to have a beer with you someday
57:39
don't think because you have black
57:41
are you married to a black person that
57:43
makes you're not racist continually make
57:46
sure your you are improving yourself
57:47
it's not enough to have one friend or be
57:49
married to somebody all right you win
57:55
[Music]
58:00
it's probably indicted that I can only
58:02
get six or seven in there or something
58:03
like that well it makes sense though I
58:04
mean it's experience it's yeah having
58:07
gone through a lot of this and kind of
58:09
unfair this is unfair topic to have a
58:10
lightning round are we good so that's
58:14
good brother well anything else you want
58:15
to talk about on your end or do I have
58:18
one question for you a time you failed
58:21
and what you learn from that failure
58:24
that might have helped you in your
58:26
journey
58:33
while lightning rounds pretty good yeah
58:35
it is good gosh your lightning round is
58:37
like this is a deep thought round Rob
58:40
this is deep thought right mm-hmm
58:43
I would I would say before before I came
58:49
to make it I got to make it lightning
58:51
run fast here before I came to
58:53
Crossroads every job I wanted was a
58:56
failure and everyone rejected me
58:58
crossroads is the only place that would
59:00
have me and that just helped me be
59:03
appreciative yeah that's good
59:05
final one you have a committee of three
59:07
they can be living they can be dead that
59:10
advises you on life religion whatever
59:13
you want tell me who those three people
59:15
would be and why dude you're killing me
59:20
with these questions these are my lism
59:22
this cannot be lightly tell you that is
59:25
white people who respect the deep
59:27
question folks
59:29
how's that for racist comment I said Shh
59:32
okay this is that's awesome okay three
59:36
people who my personal personal board of
59:39
directors all right one ulysses s grant
59:45
all right and I can tell you why if you
59:49
want okay I do you want you want to know
59:51
why I hand I do know what I do wonder
59:53
why okay
59:55
Ulysses Grant was a person of movement I
59:58
mean he got he got [ __ ] done man he just
60:01
he just went after it every every
60:02
general Bob GSD or get [ __ ] done I like
60:05
exactly every general but like a pastor
60:07
that cousin this is so great okay it's
60:09
my podcast sort our podcast so yeah so
60:12
um he just he was aggressive man
60:14
McClellan and all the rest of those guys
60:16
were just very very passive he was
60:18
aggressive it's why the Union won the
60:20
war and then he was put in charge of
60:22
Reconstruction and you know he he
60:25
obviously had some problems with how he
60:27
ran his administration but he just moved
60:30
and I I managed I shudder to think when
60:33
when Lincoln went down what would happen
60:36
had he not been a strong force so I
60:38
would say I would say grant would be one
60:41
I would say another would be we got to
60:47
say Jesus right so I'll say Jesus and
60:53
then my third I'll say oh man this is so
61:01
hard
61:02
I'll say my third is it could be
61:04
somebody living to again remind you okay
61:09
I'll say my third is Cathy Beecham okay
61:12
who died a year ago
61:14
she I called her my Iron Lady at
61:17
Crossroads she was a female bank with
61:20
here just an amazing woman who actually
61:21
was a real warrior for equal rights and
61:25
all that stuff I I miss her dearly
61:26
outtake her wisdom any day so those
61:28
month those are my 3 all right Brian's
61:30
home senior pastor with crossroads and
61:34
also the podcast the executive director
61:39
for the aggressive life appreciate you
61:40
coming on disrupt it now Rock and Rob
61:43
you're welcome I appreciate your grace
61:45
your candor and patience with a with an
61:48
old white salt like me I appreciate her
61:50
brother thank you brother
61:52
[Music]