ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Global Entrepreneurship Week. Honored to be here. I’m Rob Richardson, your moderator with Disruption Now. With me is Ras Asan with BREAUX Capital, Pam Davis with Hidden Spirits Cocktails and my man, Doug McCollough, the CIO of the City of Dublin. -- How are you all doing today? You all look great.

PAM DAVIS
Good.

RAS ASAN
Doing good. I appreciate it. How are you doing, Rob?

PAM
Feeling good.

ROB
Good. Well look, we're here to talk about what it means to be a change agent. We have change agents here. You guys are... I’m claiming the title. If you didn't think you're a change agent now, you are a change agent.

We're going to talk about what it means to be a change agent. That's a sexy term. People like to say that they're a change agent, that they're a leader. Truth be told, it's really hard to be a leader. It's even harder to be a change agent leader. And if you happened to be black, it has other little complications that can come there.

It's something that people like to aspire to be. If you've had to do it, if you've been in leadership positions, which you all have, you know how challenging it can be and the challenges that it presents on a day-by-day or organization-by-organization basis.

So thinking about that, what do you think is the most important quality to have in a leader particularly in a change leader? -- Anybody can take that.

PAM
I guess I can kick it off. I think, for me, it's been resilience and patience. A lot of times when you're trying to impact change, you have to realize it's something that's not going to happen overnight. You're going to have some days that are really tough and it's going to be hard to get through and then you're going to have other days that are maybe a little bit easier and you see the progress. So you have to allow those progressive days to fuel those tough days because a lot of times, you will want to just be like, "Why? Why am I doing this?"

ROB
Yeah. Can you give me an example you felt like that? I do think when people hear about an example from a leader and they've seen that, "Okay, they've come through a stage where they were vulnerable, where they had a misstep--"
Can you think of something specifically that might stand out in your mind when you thought about something and it was like you didn't... You were in that moment and you had to think about it for the long term because in that moment, it was just like, "Why? Why am I doing this"?

PAM
Yeah, lots of examples because I am, I guess, owner... I'll give you a little bit of background about me -- owner and founder of a spirits company in Northeast Ohio and one of the only black females in the nation with a liquor license. And just going through the whole process was difficult, trying to find other people in the industry that are doing it. There's nobody that looks like me. You're one of the first so you're leaning on a lot of white men to kind of help you out and kind of learn the ropes.

As you're going through all of that, there's a lot of things that can be de-motivating in terms of... You know, it's already hard being an entrepreneur in itself because a lot of people don't understand that journey. It's a lot different than the corporate America journey. And it gets very lonely.

And then when you're the only person that looks like you on that journey and then you have... Not just white men but everybody asking you, "Why are you doing this? What are you trying to create? It's the spirits industry so why do you want to be..." You know, there are some people that think it's controversial. You're trying to kill your people and put bad things into the environment and things like that. So there's just a lot of challenges along the way and not having always the support system.

And being a part of that lonely journey, you have to motivate yourself and you have to try to surround yourself with other positive people and other people who are doing positive things in the community who are building businesses, who are trying to stimulate the economy and things like that. It can be a very lonely road and on that road, it just requires a lot of resilience and a lot of patience. And you have to be the change that you want to see.

I have four black daughters and so… I might be one of very few black women in this industry but now I have four girls that I’ve raised that know that they could do the same thing...

ROB
That's awesome.

PAM
...whether it's spirits or whether it's some other industry. Right?

ROB
Yeah.

PAM
So it's just opening that door and being the change that you want to see so that you can inspire the next generation.

ROB
Yeah, I hear you. When people view entrepreneurship, I think it's viewed [as] very, very glorious and sexy right now. It can be a great thing because it can be...

PAM
Yeah.

ROB
…but I think people view it from just seeing the rewards just like, “Okay…” or seeing the apparent awards, I should say, because most people are fraud if we're really honest. They're pretending about what's happening in entrepreneurship. They talk about the proceeds and this. They rarely talk about the process. They rarely talk about the pain, and it's real.

PAM
Exactly.

ROB
That's why when you said it's a lonely process... Leadership, in general, is a lonely process and entrepreneurship is even lonelier because you have to build the team... There's not a team around you automatically. It's you building the team and figuring out and building that ecosystem.

Ras, thinking about that in building an ecosystem... I know BREAUX Capital is trying to do that... It's not "trying to do." You're doing that. You're not "trying." You have the organization. You're building it. Talk about the importance of building that ecosystem particularly with entrepreneurs and really changing the mindset when it comes to black entrepreneurs. I know that's a lot of what you focus on.

RAS
Great, man. I certainly appreciate you having me here, Rob. And that was a great segue from what she was just explaining around... You know, you really have to have that resilience and that compassion and really that fire within you to be able to communicate that to the members of your team whether that be through actions or just through verbal communication.

And I think for BREAUX Capital, facilitating an environment to where collaboration is just germane to the culture is extremely important. And of course, project management to where--

Having goals but not being able to move those goals or being able to move the needle on those goals is important. And being able to have multiple teams, cross-functionally working with each other, to move an organizational goal forward is extremely important.

One of the things that I’ve learned while building out this ecosystem is really creating systems so that people can be productive inside of them.

ROB
Yeah. So what is BREAUX Capital because I think people need to... Tell us a little bit about it. What's your aim that you're trying to do? What are you trying to shape with BREAUX Capital?

RAS
Certainly. So BREAUX Capital is the world's first cooperatively-owned and operated financial technology company specifically designed to increase black man's financial wellness.

What we are accomplishing is... There's a chasm in between financial literacy and financial independence. Both of them are rather nebulous concepts of just knowing information to actually living that lifestyle. There's something in the middle that has to take place. So that's where BREAUX Capital comes in.

We offer a curated social community and we're that place that aggregates all forms of capital for black men. Of course, financial capital is the one that we often think of but you've got a bevy of forms of capital. Really, we move off to eight forms of capital model including cultural capital, intellectual capital, spiritual capital, natural capital, so on and forth.

We offer automated asset accumulation which is essentially automating your savings but also beyond that, bringing and leveraging the savings of your peer group. It's that cultural community, automated asset accumulation as well as education and resources.

So if you've got some money in your pocket, you've got some knowledge and you've got some connections, now you're really cooking with oil and able to make some moves.

ROB
Right. I think that's good. I want to come back to that. There's a lot that you've just triggered in my brain that I want to have a discussion with you as we talk about change.

And I think you're talking internally, how does the black community itself… not externally looking for change in the system, not that we shouldn't. But what can we do to control the controllables which is our internal community?

I want to get to that and I want to get to that discussion but I want to get to Doug. -- Doug, you, uniquely of everybody on the panel… You're not an entrepreneur but you're in a system that... You've worked, I think, to help bring about change; to have a perspective to be inclusive.

I don't know. I don't know what the City of Dublin's relation... their general theme or I should say -- what word am I looking for -- their reputation was before you. I can say, with you, it is known to be an inclusive environment that's working to be innovative. And perhaps, that was true before but I only know it to be true because of you.

Now I’ll say, what advice would you give to a change leader who's in an environment where it might be something new that they're trying to introduce or an environment that is resisted to change because people say they changed but people will hold on to the status quo. And the data shows this even when it doesn't help them just because they're used to the status quo.

How did you do it and how do you advise leaders that are seeking to change to go about changing an environment that either is not used to change or is resistant to change?

DOUG McCOLLOUGH
I appreciate that question. And you're absolutely right about people's attitudes towards change. We all want change in other people and we do not want to change ourselves. When change arrives at our own doorstep, we tend to be resistant. And we just need to deal with that.

I am an entrepreneur but I got a lot of stuff to catch up with you on, Rob. That's future conversation.

ROB
That's future conversation. We're going to have that.

DOUG
I would tell you, Rob, some of the--

ROB
Okay.

DOUG
Absolutely. There is too much to be done out here for any of us to not be an entrepreneur. And I hope that anyone who doesn't consider themselves one, make sure you're in business [crosstalk - 10:36].

ROB
I’ll phrase that. Right. No matter what, you have an entrepreneurial mindset because you do; because you think like an innovator and you do things--

DOUG
Yes.

ROB
What I meant to say is you're in a more structured environment. You're a CIO of a large organization which is a little different than us, probably.

DOUG
You're absolutely right. You've named it correctly and everything. In addition to being the CIO of the City of Dublin, I am a co-founder of an organization called "Black Tech Columbus" as well which is not a business. It's an informal network of black technology professionals.

In those roles, I think of myself as an advocate and a thought leader in trying to push whether it be for the workforce and workforce development, economic development, those kinds of things.

We could talk about also whether or not the city I work for was known as an inclusive environment beforehand as well. It's not something that cities typically do. They should and we need to have our public sector kind of doing that kind of thing. But it had not been the case before.

The word I thought of when you started talking about change was "Authenticity." And I totally agree with the other panelists in what they've said about change whether it be resilience or also building systems as Ras has said.

I’m bringing up "Authenticity" because typically, a lot of this change, it involves people. And multiple people and groups organizing have to be a part of change. And people can tell when you're inauthentic and they're not going to follow you or follow your ideas.

So I think part of the beginning of change and making it happen has to do with creating support and developing a narrative and picturing the in-state that you're really going for and selling that narrative amongst all the people who are--

I feel like we're good at movement. That's what change requires. And it may be a very small movement. But I believe, ultimately, you have to build a movement and change hearts so that people can see the value in it and the advantages to themselves. And then if we all align at our own advantages then we can have collective advantages like that.

I want to give a shout out also to Pam being in the spirits business because... I was in state government before city government and I worked in the Department of Commerce which she will know as the liquor database. And being in spirits in Ohio is different from being in spirits in other states because the State of Ohio is the only real licensed organization to sell spirits and so everybody else has to work with them.
So hats off to you, Pam, for fighting that good fight. It is a very hard industry to be in. I just want to shout out to you for that.

PAM
Thank you.

ROB
Doug, I have a follow-up question to what you just said then I want to go to Ras and then to Pam on some stuff.

Being authentic, that's advice I hear people say a lot and I don't disagree with you. But what does that mean? How do you seek to be your authentic self? It sounds easy but... I don't consider a whole lot of people authentic. And again, people don't usually have the courage, I guess, or the know-how to be their authentic self. What does that mean? And how practically do you go about developing that muscle if there is an ability to do that?

DOUG
Yeah, it certainly is not easy at all. And I believe that this is self-work. And I don't hold myself up as the example of, "This is how you are authentic." But I practice every day. I get up and… When I’m speaking to people and when I’m trying to be honest with people and trying to present my honest self, what I have learned is that, usually, if I’m struggling with it, it's because I’m not being honest with myself.

So really, every day, I need to think about... When I advocate, I sometimes advocate for black people and say, "This is what we need." But I’m not speaking authentically and I need to get right in my own heart and say, "Well this is why I’m talking this way."

And when I start thinking about my uncles who integrated the Pipefitters Union in Detroit…

ROB
Oh wow.

DOUG
… -- they were the first African-American men to do that -- and when I think about my grandfather--

ROB
No easy task.

DOUG
No easy task. We think of the unions in a certain way today but in the '50s and '60s, it was not that way. When I think about my grandfather who owned a dry cleaning business and struggled to build a better life for his children, I think about... I’m from Detroit. I think about people like that and that makes me feel more authentic and I try to bring that to the fore.

It’s kind of like a dog can smell fear. They kind of know when you fear them. People can smell fear, too. They can just smell it. They just feel it. So when you are authentic with yourself and bringing your real truth to the table, I feel like that's how you do it.

But again, it's something that I struggle with every day in every interaction with other people when I meet people. You know, it's a practice. It's not anything you are ever really done with.

ROB
Ras, when I think about what you're trying to do, the goal, it seems, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, is to continually build the community to change the narrative, to change the direction. I’m sure you know this study. I can't remember the exact year. It might be 2050 -- but median black wealth is projected to go to zero. If you dive down into that study, it has a lot to do with the income of black men. That's almost exclusively.

So what you're doing is needed. It sounds like what you're doing is making sure that we're changing the narrative and building trust amongst the community. But if we're honest, there's probably some distrust in the community. So how do you open yourself to be vulnerable to figure out how to change that narrative as a community knowing that some might be resistant to it -- not because it's not the right thing to do [but] because it's different.

RAS
Man, that's a great question. I wanted to really allude to what Pam was saying earlier around the qualities that are important to have.

ROB
Sure. Go ahead.

RAS
One of those things, in conjunction with resilience, for sure, is compassion because when you're trying to make change, you're working with a population, oftentimes, that may not even understand truly the value and the impact that you're trying to bring to them.

ROB
I understand. I've had the same experience. Your stuff spoke to me so I figured you'd understand the question.

RAS
Exactly. Like you said, man, just being vulnerable, being transparent and also just being, like I said, compassionate, understanding that it's going to take time, that people may not get it. That's pretty much the best I can say.

And also, having a core value structure -- your morals. As we're building an institution... An institution is only as good as the people who are building it. What are your morals like? What are your ethics like?

So for us, transparency and communication are extremely important in creating an environment to where... Again, we can have Harvard lawyers and battle rappers and school principals and construction workers. Everybody come together with their own area of expertise to really work together.

And as you mentioned, "Trust." That's extremely important not only in finance... Extremely important in finance but in business, in general.

ROB
If you think about it, Ras, not to interrupt you, but finance only works through trust. It only works through trust. People would think about money... Money only works because people trust it will. Money only exchanges because people trust that it will.

RAS
Exactly.

ROB
If you don't have trust, there's no... If right now people didn't believe in the full faith and credit of the United States, everything would fall apart in the United States.

RAS
It's on his way right now.

ROB
Yeah. Well knock on wood -- hopefully not. But go ahead. Finish. [Laughter] I’m not going to go too far down that rabbit hole. Go ahead.

RAS
Yeah, man. So yeah, having trust, that's one of those double entendres when it comes to our business for sure because you're talking about the financial trust and you're also talking about the relationship level of trust.

ROB
Right.

RAS
And going back to what Doug was saying, being your authentic self -- me, showing up as who I truly am -- and like he said, people can smell that. So when they come around and I’m really being me, it’s like, okay, [Mary and William - 19:14] say, it gives them the opportunity to share their light as well.

ROB
I want to get to Pam next. But sometimes people are intimidated by you being your authentic self. I can speak for me. I can say that I work to be authentic. I’m not saying I’m perfect but I work as much as I can. I’m not perfect. I’ve done things wrong. But generally, I try to really be myself and be transparent on who I am and what I’m seeking to do and why I’m doing it.

And I think some people who are not that way are fearful of that and sometimes fight back against you because of that. I’m not sure if you've seen that before but I’m curious if you have, how you've dealt with this. -- Hold on to that because I want to go to Pam real quick and then we're going to come back to that.

Pam, you're in an industry you've said that doesn't see a lot of... not only black people but black women in the industry, period, right? How do you deal with navigating the feedback, the criticism, the stereotypes that come with that and how do you make sure you don't absorb it to get impostor syndrome as you move forward?

PAM
That's a great question and it does come back to a lot of what Doug and Ras has said. The authenticity is key. But I think authenticity comes with a level of self-awareness.

ROB
I agree.

PAM
And that's what's hard for people.

ROB
How do you define "Self-awareness"? What's your definition?

PAM
Just knowing yourself because the reason it becomes difficult to show up as you every day is because sometimes, people, they're not even aware of who they are. They're so busy trying to mimic what they see out in society or what they think they should be or what their parents told them they should be. So you have all these influences around you.

And a lot of times, we grow up mimicking those things instead of really trying to take a moment and figure out who we are, what motivates us, what makes us happy, what do we want out of life. When you don't know the answer, it's hard to show up being authentic to who you are. So that's a journey that you have to go on for yourself.

I’ve been blessed enough to go on that journey. Mine started in a corporate career. I remember when I started my corporate career, I would show up as whatever position I wanted to aspire to become. I wanted to be a vice president or a CIO or I wanted to be a part of the leadership team and so I would look at the leaders that were up there -- a lot of which did not look like me were white men and women -- and I thought that I had to act like that in order to get to those positions.

ROB
Sure.

PAM
And then over time, you start to learn as you get more confident and comfortable in who you are and what you can produce as a human. You start to realize that, okay, the thing that makes most companies that are very successful special is the diversity and that you bring that level of diversity if you do show up as yourself.

ROB
Right.

PAM
So as you continue to get comfortable with that, as you continue to bring other leaders along with you and you start to mentor and do all of those things, then you start to truly develop who you are as a leader.

And you just hone in on those skills. You continue to educate yourself. You continue to invest in yourself. And after a while, you get more and more comfortable at showing up as yourself until one day, I think it’ll just clicked. For me, it just clicked.

ROB
Sure.

PAM
Like I don't have to be that guy or that girl. I can just be Pam. And Pam can be inappropriate or Pam can be super professional and polished, right?

ROB
Yeah. [Laughter]

PAM
There's different parts of my personality, you know.

ROB
Right.

PAM
It's just like in your relationships. When I’m a mom, I’m a different person than when I’m a wife. I’m a different person than when I am a CEO or a founder. When you start to embrace all those pieces of who you are then that allows you to start to show up as your authentic self and you get comfortable doing that. And then over time, if you're comfortable with that, other people start to be comfortable with that.

ROB
If I can, I’d like to have a different point on that because... I believe you're correct. What I believe is the challenge and... I’ve gone through this personally and I’m sure a lot of black people.... I’m sure women have gone through this, too. If you're in the wrong environment though, it can reinforce bad things in your brain.

There's a study that was shown that the people you literally hang around, your brain rewires itself to think like them. Even if you think you're not going to, eventually, you will. Your mind will change and the synopsis will change and you'll start forming thought patterns like the people around you.

So what about the environment that you have around you because if you're in a corporate environment that doesn't... You can be this person that believes in yourself and all that but [if] you're in an environment where people are tearing you down, it's harder.... I’m not saying it's impossible but I’m saying like what to make of the environment? Have you been in an environment like that and what did you do about the situation in order to either cope or thrive?

PAM
There's a saying... and I’m probably going to screw it up. But it's like, "You are the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with." I’ve heard that several times and I believe that to be true.

Yeah, being a black person in America is hard, right? I grew up in the inner city of Detroit. That was hard. I grew up with drug dealers on my corner. That was hard, right? You learn how to deal with things that are hard but you also--

That's where I talked about the "investing in yourself." And that's not just going out and taking a class but that's also becoming aware about who you are spending your time with.

And maybe you don't have that in your corporate environment. But you have to find that support system outside of that. You have to become self-aware about, "Who am I spending most of my time with? What are they putting into my spirit?" And sometimes, it's other people. Sometimes, you have to go to other things like reading books, podcasts, being aware of what you listen to, what you watch on television. All of that stuff influences us and it's up to us, in terms of what we put in our spirit. And then what happens is you start to pump that positivity into your body then--

If your corporate environment is bad, you're going to feel it every day…
ROB
Yeah, you are.

PAM
…and you're going to be inspired to say, "You know what? This isn't the place for me. I need to pivot. I need to find a way out of this situation" because it just doesn't sit with your spirit anymore.

ROB
Yeah. If you're dealing with the situation, this is what I advise people because... I believe everybody in some part of their journey is going to go through that. It's literally part of the process of life. You really have two options. You can give voice to it and figure out how you make your voice heard and figure out ways to take some corrective action for yourself and within the institution. And you do that, it may not work. The second one is to get a plan and exit, right?

PAM
Yeah.

ROB
And while you're in the process, really building... I think you really said it well. And what I want to really capture is that really make sure that you are guarding your spirit, your time, your essence because all those things matter.

And if you're in a corporate environment that you have to stay in then you need to be really intentional. You should do this anyway, and I’ve learned this over the years. Be really intentional about who you spend time with because they will infect and affect you, period, end of discussion.

If you want to be a change agent, you're not going to have the energy to do it if all of your time is spent with people that are emotionally draining you. -- Doug--

DOUG
Can I add something?

ROB
Go ahead. You're next anyway. Go ahead.

DOUG
Well I just want to say... because I believe in that. I believe those are the two things that you really need to do. And I think that Pam is on the right track in describing that and that we are going to feel it. So while you're going to be influenced by what you're surrounded by, you will know. You will know in your true center.

But I also want to say that, we, as a minority in this country, need to come to terms with the fact that our numbers... We're about a fifth of the country. Latinx people are going to be closer to the majority before black people are in this country. So we're going to be in the minority for a long time in America. And I feel like one of the opportunities that we may have is--

Some of our energy and spirit is so strong that we need to take those five people or the boardroom or whoever we're surrounded by and push that and maybe begin to change their minds and maybe in our differences in our diversity begin to make them feel uncomfortable and begin to push so that--

ROB
[Crosstalk - 28:41] off of that.

DOUG
You know what I mean?

ROB
Disruption.

DOUG
I know you are. Right. We're never going to... -- I shouldn't say "Never." But it's unlikely that we're going to be in a situation where we are not surrounded by a majority and so we are going to have to create spaces or recreate spaces that we find ourselves in.

So when we find ourselves in an organization where we are the only African-American person, we shouldn't say, "Well I’m very uncomfortable. I’m going to leave until I can find a majority black place." If you can find one, awesome. Go do that. But we might have to change that organization from within and say, "You guys are going to have to start talking more like I want to talk because I’m going to need that. I’m one out of 10 in this room so I’m going to need every third Monday or something is going to be Doug's day but we are going to change together and you're going to come around my way a little bit. I’m not just going to come towards you."

ROB
Yeah.

DOUG
"You are actually going to do some changing towards me." That's a level of bravery, I think, and risk that we need to start having that conversation.

ROB
I completely agree.

RAS
And if I may add on to that which is... You know, everybody is totally speaking the truth. I also want to just add the converse to that, that in that corporate environment, you might get fired. It happens. You know what I mean? I’ve definitely experienced that to where I’ve been in the corporate environment and I’m attempting to hold on to my sense of self. But of course, there are some clash there so at the end of the day, I had to choose me. So that's totally a possibility, too.

DOUG
And that's okay.

ROB
Yeah, and that's okay. You don't want to hold on to a job... And I know people have to eat. But you have to develop a... Here's what you should do. Develop a skill set. Develop as many relationships as you can and I promise, you'll be able to figure your way out. That's how I looked at everything.

I have a similar situation, too. If you don't know my background, I am a lawyer. But that’s not the part I like. I don't like being a lawyer. Nothing wrong with it. I became a lawyer to understand the law, to learn how to change it but then I got sidetracked with corporate law. It wasn't Rob Richardson. That doesn't fit me.

The paycheck was good. I’ll be very honest. I looked at it initially, like maybe I can learn to it and no. It wasn't a good fit. It doesn't fit with my personal mission. I’m not criticizing people that do it. I can't be fulfilled doing that. Not only could I not be the change agent I want, it wasn't a good fit for what I’m passionate about. So you have to figure that out because--

Especially being an entrepreneur, you have to work hard. The process is hard. And if you don't enjoy what you're aiming towards... I’m not saying you're going to enjoy every day because that's not true. There's going to be a lot of days you don't enjoy. But if you don't enjoy the journey that you're heading towards, it's going to be miserable for you no matter how much money you make.

So I tell people to find a problem that you care about. Seek to solve it and obviously, you'll figure out ways to make money. That's how the money will come. You have to figure out a problem and become--

I think it was the head of Google Startups, Jewel Burks Solomon, who says this. She says, "You fall in love with the problem and you'll find the right solution." People try to fall in love with the solution that they think is right and they get lost in the process and lose sight of the actual problem. And that's how businesses and people fail.

Speaking of a problem, Ras, people who are trying to solve, back to you, when we talk about trying to change I think our mindset -- and I’m talking about the black community with money and how we think about it -- that is a task because a lot of the constructs and things, the narratives, have been put out there. We're building the trust. But how do we go about, I would say, trying to get better financial habits as a people in terms of making that a process because habits, as you know, become automatic. They come over time. What's the process to doing that? -- I’m going to both Pam and Doug to talk about building institutional habits.

RAS
Okay. I think the overarching umbrella term here is "Culture." If we look at the larger culture, particularly if we take a glance at hip-hop, I tell people that the sixth element of hip-hop is actually entrepreneurship. Hip-hop is starting to put that into the music. The culture is starting to talk more about land ownership, stocks, equity, and that's starting to become a little bit more sexy. That's one piece of it that I think is a sign that we're moving in the right direction.

The next piece from a more micro-perspective, which kind of ties back to BREAUX Capital, [is] our model of financial wellness. For us, there are four components of financial wellness. The first is, "Are you able to take care of your basic needs" -- food, clothing and shelter. Okay, you got that taken care of? Nice. Are you able to handle a thousand dollar emergency? Okay, you got that taken together. Do you have some capital on hand to take advantage of investment opportunities as they present themselves? Okay, you got that taken care of.

Now, going back to what Pam was saying, what Doug was harping on, you as well Rob, is that final component… that fourth and final component at the financial services industry has overlooked is your two closest acquaintances and their ability to take care of their basic needs -- thousand dollar emergency and invest at will. If you've got that together then that's how we know that you're on your way to achieving that financial freedom.

So it's not just you being well, it's the people around you being well also because if you got sick people around you, you won't be good for long, right?

ROB
Yeah.

RAS
Even thinking about it from a behavioral economics perspective, if you're attempting to lose weight, what do you do? You go to an exercise class or you get a gym ready.

ROB
Right.

RAS
Right? There's that level of accountability but there's also that level of shared destiny. "I don't want to let the group down. I’ll let myself down but I’m not going to let the group down." Right?
ROB
Yeah.

RAS
With BREAUX Capital, us coming together, really just from a barbershop type of vibe to where we can share ideas, be transparent, be vulnerable, share information but then at the same time, there comes that project management, facilitation, [that kind of thing - 35:11].

ROB
Right. You're actually helping to answer my question and I want to just dive a little into that then go to others because you make a good point. This is comparing this to.... because it's very similar to getting in shape, losing weight. That's a shift in mentality. What you often have to do is get rid of habits that you're not aware of. Like, okay, all of a sudden, at three o'clock, I get up to go get some Cheetos every day and it's a habit that... We don't know what the trigger is. It's something. You got to figure out what the trigger is and figure out a way--

One of the best books I’ve ever read is called "The Power of Habit" and the statement stays with me. He said, “You can't actually get rid of bad habits. You can only replace them with good ones."

So I guess how do we get people into the mindset of understanding… Do you guys get into the mindset of making people understand how the bad decisions financially are triggered and how you can understand that and move forward as a community? – Does my question make sense?

RAS
Somewhat around, like you say, getting people to kind of take a look at what their behavior is and what are they doing and kind of redirecting them?

ROB
Correct.

RAS
Not so much. I think it's really more through osmosis that we do that, where we put you in the group and people are sharing information about [crosstalk - 36:26].

ROB
You kind of do it in a way. You do it through the AA way, right -- the Alcoholic Anonymous

RAS
Right.

ROB
What they did is they break people out of the habit. They built the community. But they also have a set of values to make people understand.

RAS
[Crosstalk - 36:40] and function of--

ROB
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

RAS
Yeah. You pretty much got it, yep

ROB
Doug, how do you look at building an institution in a culture that is open to being innovative, that's open to change? How do you create that institutional DNA if it's not initially there? We kind of said that earlier but I kind of want to dive into it. What do you recommend to really make it an institutional... kind of you create institutional habits within the organization to be inclusive, to be open to change?

DOUG
I think we need to do foundational work and we need to have deeper conversations and take our time to actually build on that. And I appreciate what Ras is saying especially when he says "barbershop" because we all know what that means. We know that you've got time. You got an hour just to kick people and just do foundational conversations.

What was brought to my mind, as you're talking about mindset and habits, is... because we come from a situation of oppression and because we are part of the... specifically the American system of success or definitions of success, we're immersed in it.

I think we're really talking about is ownership. And when you're talking about capital… I appreciate Ras also for talking about these different kinds of capital.

We sometimes have an allergy to that ownership. We see it coming. If you do everything right the way Ras is talking about or the path that Pam is following and you start a business and you pay off your house and you buy a second house, also you're in the real estate business or if you fix cars real well and you got three of them, you're a used car salesman, and you're now an owner. And we divorce ourselves as a community from that person and we think that they have done something foreign or something has been done wrong.

ROB
Yeah.

DOUG
I really hope that you guys are picking up on what I’m saying. Suddenly, that person is no longer a part of the community.

ROB
I do, completely. Yep.

DOUG
And that's foundational. We had a community, at one point -- and we've had it several times in our history in this country -- in which we gathered together and said, "We're going to build this. We're going to own that. We're going to do this collectively but we're going to do this individually and we're going to celebrate those successes." And it wasn't just the American immersion of what that definition of "Success" was. We've got to get back to that. So I really hope we--

I’m going to explore more Ras' concepts of the eight different kinds of capital and I would include social capital in that. And again, if the people around you are not doing well then you're not doing well.

ROB
Absolutely.

DOUG
If you're two closest neighbors or two closest friends are suffering, you are also suffering. So we need to have a different community definition of “winning” that includes--

You know, if that person did pay off that property and now bought the land next door, they're doing it right. How can we help them and at the same time support what they're doing and maintain them as part of this community as opposed to othering them and saying, "Well you're off on your own now. I don't know what you're doing."

ROB
A big part of what you're saying too is looking at our relationship as a black community with money because... You're definitely right about that in terms of ownership and saying like, "Oh that's something foreign to us." No, no. No, it's not.

And then when it actually happens, too, I do think, because it's still usually new, there's not that talk about generational and the passing of the wealth. You look at, God rest his soul, Chadwick Boseman, he literally knew he was dying, had a wife and had a kid and then there was no will or trust.

This is not unusual for the community. This is something that usually happens because we don't like to have the conversation talking about money and death. But death is going to happen to everybody and so there has to be this... because what happens is if that business or whatever goes away then we've just lost that opportunity for generational wealth to help not only your family but the community, too. And I’ve seen that happen a lot in our community.

I think we have to have a different conversation about finances, wealth and everything else and about how we're really going to change the trajectory. And part of it is, like you said, changing the whole narrative and changing the whole relationship with money and with ownership.

Pam, can you talk about what you might have had actually experienced in this conversation in terms of taking ownership, being a black woman and the challenges you might have had internally and how you've tried to change the narrative and change the conversations?

PAM
As I answer that question, I want to kind of piggyback on one thing that Doug said and Ras. It comes to education, right? We're not educated about how money works. And we also have to realize the system is not necessarily set up for us to win.

It is easier for me to go out and literally buy a Bugatti tomorrow than it is for me to get a small business loan. I know that firsthand because I have tried to get small business loans. I can go out and buy a brand new $100,000 Mercedes truck and be in and out of the dealership in a couple of hours and it took months -- four-five months -- for me to get my first small business loan which was less than half of the cash capital that I had in my bank account to fund my business.

ROB
Wow.

PAM
So the system is not set up per se for us to win. It's easier to acquire debt than it is to build wealth.

ROB
That’s because they're comfortable with you being a consumer but not an owner, clearly.

PAM
Exactly. And that's where businesses like Ras' business where we're trying to educate our people about what it means to build generational wealth... And again, it goes back to what we talked about earlier as being the change that you want to see. It starts with education. And a lot of times, we're just not educated.

I wasn't educated. I thought, "Okay. I have a good job. I have a 401k. I have money in my savings account. I have a 700-plus credit score. I can go buy a house after house after house, car after car. I should be able to get a small business loan like this." No, sir. It was just not. The system is not set up--

DOUG
“Whoa! Whoa! Slow your [row - 43:37]. What do you think you’re doing over there?”

ROB
Yeah. Like, “Wait. What are you doing with this?” [Crosstalk - 43:40].” Yeah. “You kind of own something?” Like, “Who do you think you are?"

PAM
Oh yeah. And then on top of that, like, "Oh you want to build a spirits business in Northeast Ohio? Well let us change the Rolodex and see how many people have done that that look like you. Oh zero? Okay, you're not going to be successful" because then you don't fit the profile, right? I don't look like Mark Zuckerberg so I can't build a multi-billion dollar business, right? And that's what you're up against.

So it starts with education. And like I said, it starts with somebody taking that first step and then, again, going back to surrounding ourselves with other people.

There are many people in this industry. I’ve probably learned this year alone with everything that's happened in 2020 as crazy as it's been… I didn't even realize how many black spirits businesses were out there. But because it became, I’ll say, more popular or we decided to take a day to buy black, right, everybody started calling me. Everybody started putting out lists like, "Oh support black business. Do this." I was excited about the movement but then part of me was like, "I’ve been black this whole time."

ROB
[Laughter]

DOUG
“What changed? What changed?”

ROB
It used to be institutionalized in us.

PAM
Yeah. “Why are we doing it on this random Tuesday?” Like, "I've been black since."

ROB
Right, because it should be an institutional cultural habit to support each other.

PAM
Exactly.
ROB
We're not there yet but we are at... This is certainly a critical juncture in a moment in time where we can figure out a way to organize, internally, that we are more conscious of how to go about doing this in the future because... Pam, I think it's key and--

Just very quickly, this is what we’re… Disruption Now, we're building a platform to do just that. We're going to do crowd investing to help more of us invest in us because if we don't have to… Here's a good thing. There's enough people with enough money where we can invest in each other.

We've had some successful raises. We've had Dawn Dickson on the show who's done crowd investing. I think Angela [inaudible - 45:53] as well. They didn't get money traditionally. So crowd investing--

We’re going to have a crowd investing platform that is geared towards us. We can invest more in us and we should. I definitely want to work with you guys on that. We expect to roll out early next year. But we have to really look at how we--

We have to both change the system… We have to still challenge it and we also have to challenge ourselves, internally, to not accept the constructs and the narratives that are put forward because if we're honest, we do a lot and we have to reject it.

It's not only white people that feel that way about a black woman owning a spirits business. My guess is there's a lot of black people that either they'll say it explicitly or they'll think it implicitly. But either way, it's something we have to figure out how to throw out completely because it's really holding us back. So I commend all of you for what you're doing to be change agents.

As we finish up, I want to ask one last question. When you're looking at being a change agent and you're changing minds, concepts, communities, it's a long-term game. So with that, how do you measure success? -- Anybody can start. Ras, we'll start with you.

RAS
Sure. Man, that's a great question for us. BREAUX Capital, we're not your average startup because most startups are looking to sell off within five to 10 years. We came into the game understanding that we are an institution, that we're going to be here for at least 100 years, to pass on to our children and their children.

But how do we measure our success as we're on that road to 100? I would say that we measure it based upon how many people we're impacting along the way.

With our model, we've had breauxs who were able to put a down payment on their first home where the money that they were saving up, they were able to draw from that. We've had breauxs who lost their jobs and were able to use their nest egg or breauxs who had a… expanding their family, a new child on the way.
In interviewing these breauxs and learning about these different scenarios, these would have been insurmountable hurdles had they not been tied in and plugged in with what BREAUX Capital is doing.

Again, man, just measuring how people are being affected by what you're doing as you're going along will give you insights into, "Are you going in the right direction?" And if you are then just keep following that North Star. Keep doing what you're doing.

ROB
Yeah. -- Pam.

PAM
How we measure success is our ability to give back within a community, our ability to create jobs within the different communities that we're impacting because we are, as spirits business, there are some stigma that comes along with that. But at the end of the day, as a people, we probably spend more in this market than anybody else.

I want to be able to take our funds and then turn around and reinvest it back into the things that got me to where I am. I grew up in math and engineering. We have an outreach program that gives back to young girls going through STEM courses which is Science, Technology, Engineering and Math.

ROB
Remind me, I got to introduce you to Whitney Gaskins if you don't know her. -- Go ahead.

PAM
Okay. Yeah, absolutely. -- Again, just be in that change, letting people see that but then continuing to funnel jobs and money back into our community to build up that next generation of leaders. That's how we measure success.

Every year, as we try to hit certain milestones in terms of revenue, in terms of distribution, in terms of getting the product out there, we also take a percentage of that and put it back into the community and bring it on the next group of young leaders and change agents in the world.

ROB
All right. -- Doug.

DOUG
I have very similar measures of success as both of you. I will say that I’m highly concerned with digital wellness -- so each individual who can gain the advantages of technology and use that to make a better life for themselves. And I will add using technology to get into technology as a career field. There are real solid incomes that are there.
And none of these measures of success let go of profit or those kinds of things, I believe, because each individual who becomes self-sustaining and capable of participating in the economy is good for all of our businesses.

I have come at this from an economic development standpoint both working with the city, with the region in Central Ohio and with the State of Ohio, that the next great frontier of economic development won't be in getting a headquarters to come to your community. It will be [inceeding - 50:51] a number of businesses. That's where the jobs are going to come from.

And the incomes in the home ownership and the drop in crime and the better education and the college and the scholarships, all of that is going to come from the businesses that are going to be founded in the communities where they've been redlined against for all this time.

And just one more plug for Pam, all those of us out there who are trying to give her a hard time for bringing spirits as a business into our community, we are clearly enjoying spirits. Why not enjoy them? Why not own that company? I mean clearly. -- I am your advocate, Pam. I’ve got your back [crosstalk - 51:33].

ROB
True. I will be buying some because I know about you. So it's good, yeah.

DOUG
Yes.

ROB
I'll have you back on the podcast, too, individually. We'll talk about it in… I’m proud of all the work that all three of you are doing. I look forward to us working together more.

I want to thank you all for listening and tuning in. I’m Rob Richardson with Disruption Now. You can visit me at disruptionnow.com. We'd like to disrupt common narratives and constructs to empower black and brown communities.

I appreciate all of you being on and this is a great session.

RAS
Thanks much, Rob.

DOUG
Thank you.

PAM
Thank you.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]