“Let’s think about the situation. We have the coronavirus going on now. You have people that are rapidly now moving to do things virtually. My guess is there's going to be a ramp up in cybersecurity crimes because criminals will never waste an opportunity to figure out how to make money and take advantage of people.” -- Rob Richardson

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ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson It is now… Where are we at? It is March 26, 2020. We talk a lot about disruption and the world is disrupting. Now people are moving more to remote. People are already doing that. Now I think with the coronavirus, that is just going to accelerate. So with that, you need to know how you're going to be safe; how you’re going to be secure. We have security systems all built in our house to protect us physically but that's not the real danger anymore. The real danger is digitally. And here to talk to us about that is Fareedah Shaheed. -- Did I say it right?

FAREEDAH
Fareedah Shaheed, yes.

ROB
Your mission in life is to teach non-tech-savvy people how to protect themselves from cyber criminals which is a sign of merging. It's the real thing. And there are so many threats. We talked about it on this show that many people are unaware of just how much of your information is out there; how vulnerable you really are.

Generally, people don't like to think about securities or threat until they're threatened. That is the wrong time to think about it because you're already in the face. You’ve already been robbed. You’ve already been… whatever you want to say. You've already been violated. The goal is to… Well let's actually prevent that.

So I want to thank you for coming on and sharing some of your knowledge with us. But before we dive into all that world of tech world and all that interesting stuff, tell us about all these threats so we can all be scared to death. [Laughter]

FAREEDAH
You’re right. [Laughter]

ROB
Let's back up a little bit. I like to get people… understanding of how you actually came into this.

FAREEDAH
Perfect. It was actually my major in college so nothing really grand. I started in general technology. It kind of was boring for me. I would tell people I would get 16 hours of sleep, go to class and still be sleeping. Now don’t get me wrong. I mean I was an A student. I was Dean's List, all of that, but I still was sleeping. So I decided that, “You know what? There's probably a better path.” And someone introduced me to cybersecurity and I felt that this is a field that I can make the most impact in. And anything that I do, I want to make sure, “How can I bring the most value to most people” and security seemed the best way to do that. So that's really a short story of how I got into security to begin with.

ROB
But you were bored, right? I’ve done some research on you. As you kind of indicated there, you were pretty much bored in college, Fareedah, and then you didn't finish, correct?

FAREEDAH
I did not finish. No. I’m that person where I’m like, “Okay, am I bringing value? Am I making impact? No?” All right, move on.

It was a lot of theory and it was time for me to actually put it into practice and impact people. So I searched for a job. I searched for something where I can actually do something and impact people. And I found a program that connected college students or young adults into the corporate world, and that's how I got into corporate. And from there, I learned that my real passion was actually helping people understand security.

So in college, I had no idea that that was actually a career path. Usually, as a security person, usually, you're an ethical hacker or you're doing something with firewalls or computers or coding. There really wasn't a realistic view of what is actually out there. So when I got into corporate, they realized, “Wait a minute. Fareedah has communication skills. Fareedah is able to have a presentation.” A lot of people in tech, they're not really well-versed in that area so they thought, “Let’s use--“

ROB
Just talking in front of people.

FAREEDAH
Yes.

ROB
[I love that - 04:22] but it’s true. Everybody have different skill sets. Some people want to just sit behind the screen, code all day.

FAREEDAH
Yes. Yes, exactly. They have this whole… I don't know if it's a quote but a joke where tech people know each other by their shoes because you're always looking down in the hallway. You're not looking at each other.

ROB
Yeah.

FAREEDAH
And that is extremely true where people aren't really communicating and building relationships. And that's what I thrive on. Even though I’m an extrovert-introvert, I still thrive on those connections in human beings.

And I realized that I had a deep passion for security. But I didn't realize that until I realized how the security world treated people who are end users or non-tech-savvy. And the usual way is to think that people are idiots or they're dumb because they don't know security; that they're no longer intelligent; they don't know how to protect themselves. And I felt like that was a huge, huge disadvantage for us because we're fighting against something that protects our kids, that protects our networks, corporations. And to tell the people that are the most integral part of that protection that they aren't good enough, I didn't feel like was actually impactful and is going to be good.

So that's where I developed that real deep passion for teaching people, what I call “Empathetic security” where it's just one-on-one--

ROB
“Empathetic security.” Wow.

FAREEDAH
Yes. It’s one-on-one education. I know you're intelligent in your own way. Whether you’re a doctor, you’re a lawyer, you’re a teacher, you’re a mother, you’re intelligent. And I’m intelligent in my way. This is just a subject that I know a little bit more about and I’m just going to help you and serve you and impact you and your family in that way. And I felt like that was the better way to go about it versus “I’m high and mighty and you don't know anything. Why are you clicking on a link again?”

ROB
Yeah, exactly. “Why click on a link” and speaking all these jargons that people don't understand. I actually think that that's a way of showing that that person is not as intelligent. The hardest thing you can do is actually learn how to teach. Teaching is very hard. It's a very hard thing to do, to actually put yourself up and to be a teacher and figure out how to communicate in a way… not in a way that you understand the language but to interpret it in a way that anyone can understand it. That's how you can say you really know a subject. So kudos to you for that.

But how do you get people to understand this, Fareedah? When you look at this, how do you get people to say, “This is important” when people don't like… I said earlier in the show, people don't like to think about threats until they happen. If you're just talking to a new business owner -- for our listeners here -- they say, “Well why am I going to invest in something that hasn't happen to me yet,” why should they do this? Why is cybersecurity a real threat to them? Do you give them a case point or maybe a story that you've been through that you can walk people through to tell them why they need to really pay attention?

FAREEDAH
Yeah, definitely, I usually start with stories. And one story that I start with was a person I worked with. And she let me tell the story so no one come after me, okay? She said, “Hey Fareedah, use it.”

ROB
It’s all clear.

FAREEDAH
Right. It’s all clear. Right. …because it's really important that more people learn from her story. So she was a seven-figure business earner. She was in her business for 15 years working from the comfort of her home. She had about five-six people, virtual assistants, who help her in her team… in her business. And she got hacked one day through her website. It was a group of cybercriminals or hackers. It wasn't just one person. Once they got into her website, they were able to get into other personal information. And they not only did that but they got into her internet, her Wi-Fi in her house.

ROB
Wow.

FAREEDAH
From there, they got into--

ROB
Just through her website?

FAREEDAH
Yeah. They kind of traversed the network, wherever it was. She had a lot of passwords that she was reusing so that was one of the big, big things. And a lot of things were left open and vulnerable. So from there, they were in her Wi-Fi. They got into 18 of the family’s devices. She had three kids. So they’re in all of the devices. They installed spyware which is just basically spying on her kids, spying on her husband. Then from there, because they were basically in everything, they got into her team's email addresses and they were able to steal passwords from all of her business accounts.

ROB
Wow.

FAREEDAH
They were there for a couple of weeks. It took them six--

ROB
That’s a long time -- two weeks.

FAREEDAH
That’s a long time, yes. And it took her six months to fully get them out and recover from it. But she's not fully recovered yet. So it's been two years and she's still feeling the ramifications of that entire incident.

And she told me that you think that you can google or talk to a security company and that wasn't the case. She went to tech stores and they said, “Oh you're dreaming. It's not really true. No one's in your computer.” They scanned things and they didn't find anything and they kind of sent her home, gave her a new computer. But since they're in her network, not just her computer, it didn’t really--

ROB
It didn’t matter.

FAREEDAH
Right, exactly. It didn’t matter. So they were there for a while. She googled everything she could possibly do. She called these companies -- the big security companies -- that you think would actually help someone who has millions, that she can afford to get a big package and they said, “Well we only have enterprise-grade packages. We don't really do that for really small businesses. We're sorry. Good luck. It might be this or this. Install this thing to scan your program” and they kind of left her alone.

ROB
Wow.

FAREEDAH
It got really, really bad. But she was able to find somebody who was in the security field that sat with her. The FBI got involved as well. She had to pay about $30,000 dollars for the entire thing. She was just like, “That's not the type of money that you think you're going to spend on with security.” So because of that, she invited me to do a lot of different things for her high-level, high-valued clients because she felt that this is something that more business owners need to know.

And usually, it's more people than you think that are affected by this. You don't see it in the headlines because you're not a Fortune 500 company and Fortune 100 company.

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
That's what I usually tell people. I mean the statistics about small businesses and how they're targeted is off the chain. I usually tell this statistic, which is the most impactful, and this is from the Verizon Data Breach report, if anyone wants to look it up for themselves, is that in 2018, 58% of cybercrime victims were small businesses. So this wasn't like big businesses. These are smaller ones.

It’s really important to do your own research. Don't just take my own word for it. Look for yourself and realize, “Okay, I’m a business owner and I have a responsibility to my clients, to myself, to my legacy to make sure that I’m secure as possible.”

We don't put legal down like that like we do with security. If you're protected legally, you should be protected security-wise as well. That's what I usually tell people.

ROB
Wow. You’ve gotten my attention. So just through the website? These folks were able to do this and get access just by… So what she did wrong was just having… Her passwords were too easy on her website that led to other things?

FAREEDAH
Yes, there were a couple of things. She didn't know the entire story. They got the FBI involved and the FBI was able to tell her how they got in. They were saying the website was the most vulnerable. And then from the website, they were able to get into other things like her account in her computer where the website was actually housed -- all of those things. And the web hosting party was not helpful at all, period. All of the online accounts that she was using did not want to help her. They kind of dropped it like, “Well it's not our fault that they got in. You should have had security controls on your website.” So that was the biggest downfall.

ROB
Wow. Mm. Wow. Okay. So someone has their own website, small business like myself, what are the basics that you should have at the minimum grade to make sure that you at least have some layer of protection for all those small business owners out there, particularly now? Let's think about the situation. We have the coronavirus going on now. You have people that are rapidly now moving… do things virtually, rapidly. My guess is there's going to be a ramp up in cybersecurity crimes because criminals will never waste an opportunity to figure out how to make money and take advantage of people. So this seems like this would be a prime time for the cybercriminal world to figure out how to get involved.

I even got a text, if I remember this right, from somebody just a little while ago about something that's happening right now with WhatsApp, if you've heard about this. There’s like some new virus. Like WhatsApp go, “Don't click it because if you do…” or “Dance with the Pope,” you click these things, they'll hack into your system immediately. I mean that's just today.
What do you advise people that heard that story about just one website? Where do they go now to at least make sure that they are not extremely vulnerable? What are some basics that we all need to do?

FAREEDAH
Yeah, definitely. So practicing good security habits is a really, really big thing. I usually talk about mindset because if you don't think that you're going to be hacked or you don't think that you need to secure yourself, you're not going to do anything. So just work on your mindset. Research. Figure out why you actually need this in your life.

The second thing is developing habits that help you -- so changing passwords that you've had for a while that may have been breached. I don't believe in the 60-90 day change. That's actually proven to be not actually helpful. So you don't have to change your passwords every 60-90 days but change it if you believe is a breach especially on your websites when you have admin profile, making sure that that is a unique password and no one else is using it; enabling two-factor authentication which is basically another way to authenticate to an account, makes it harder for hackers or cybercriminals to get in your account.

You have plugins that are security plugins that can help you keep your site up-to-date in terms of being protected by the latest hacks. And usually, these sites will give you people who are professionals that can help you build out your site in a secure way, and security is one of those things. And I can provide the links and we can put in the show notes if necessary. Those are really--

ROB
Oh I like that, yes. That will be very helpful.

I’m going to go back a little bit to your background -- jump back a little bit. I remember hearing that you hated math which is interesting for a person that is in cybersecurity. It's kind of a technical… Not “kind of.” It is a technical field. How do you go from hating math… First of all, how did you get to hate math and then how do you go from hating math to being a techie?

FAREEDAH
I actually didn't hate math. That's probably the actual real answer. I did hate math throughout my life but in the beginning of it, I actually loved math and I was a math nerd. I used to do all multiplication on my fingers. I could just give you any multiplication problem and I can do it in my head. I really, really loved math. But what happened was… and I don't want to blame it all on this teacher but that's where it all started. And usually, that’s where--

ROB
Oh you got a teacher story, too.

FAREEDAH
Right. It’s always somebody.

ROB
You and I have that in common, yes.

FAREEDAH
It’s always something. They didn't like the way that I did math and they felt that I should memorize it and not do it in my head. And they made--

ROB
Oh you were just too smart for them. They didn’t understand.

FAREEDAH
Yeah. They were like, “No. We don't want you to do that. We want you to do it a different way.” And it was… I mean the teacher was relentless. She didn't like questions. So if she did a math problem or she did a lesson, that was it. She would spend 20 minutes on lesson and then you did the lesson. There's no questions asked. If you ask a question, you're made to feel stupid. I went through that for about two years and then I just decided, “You know what? Screw this. I don't like math. I don't like anything to do with it.”

And any time that I was studying it, I always had these blocks. And growing up, my parents were like, “You're really good at math. You're really good at this. Why is there a block?” So that is where I started to hate math. I didn't like it at all. But my fate was always going to be technology so I had to get over it somehow.

And going back into college and doing math -- because of course I’m in a really technical field -- I fell in love with it again. And it’s crazy… and I’m going to say this because I’m fine being a little bit vulnerable but I definitely had a breakdown. I definitely started crying once that mental block was shifted or lifted from me and I was able to see the joy in math again.

Now I’m not going to say that I will love to do math for the rest of my life. I’m not at that point but getting over that hump was amazing and beautiful. And I had a beautiful, intelligent, really resourceful professor that really spent time to make sure that we understood math and understood it in a way that was practical to security and I just… I loved, loved, loved, loved that class. So I fell in love with it again. But I still have a part of me that's like, “Mm, no.”

ROB
Your story reveals a few things that I’m sure you're self-aware of now. In some ways, that teacher has inspired you to do what you're doing now because you are a teacher and you are very cognizant of not talking down to the people that you're working with. My guess is that experience is probably why.
And also, of course, you're in math in some ways. Maybe it's not in a direct way but really in a tangential way, you are involved in math. Being a tech, you still have to use analytical thinking so it's the same type of skill set.

You, I’m sure, realize the importance of what you plant in your mind and how that can really take over. And it's so important to capture those thoughts particularly when you're in a position to influence the mind of others, and that's why having a great teacher help to remove that block.

If you can, if there's anything, can you speak to how that maybe actually inspired you to do what you're doing now?

ROB
Yeah. You definitely hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what it was. I grew up in Saudi Arabia so that was another thing that really fueled it, where I was one of the only… not “one of the only” -- I was the only African-American in the entire school.

ROB
Oh wow.

FAREEDAH
So that was an experience in of itself. And going through that--

ROB
That, I want to talk about so note that.

FAREEDAH
Right. Going through that, having those type of teachers really, really is what gave me that feeling, that we should never ever put anyone down for anything. And when I say “anything,” I mean of course there are going to be exceptions. But in terms of when you're a teacher and when you're teaching somebody, it's important to be there with them and go through the journey with them.

That is where my whole inspiration for the online security movement, empathetic security and just teaching people, it has come from. That's where my entire passion is, where I’m very, very aware of how I’m formulating things even I got to the point now where I work my hardest to not say, “Don't do this” but instead say something positive. So instead of saying, “Don't click the link,” I would try to say, “Make sure that you delete” something. Or “If you see this X out of the email, report it,” instead of saying, “Don't click the link.”

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
I try my best. Now you're probably going to see some posts on Instagram when I said “Don't do something.”

ROB
Sometimes, if it works… Hey, whatever works that will make people receive it.

FAREEDAH
Exactly.

ROB
I found out something though in communications, too. When I tell people not to say something, they say it, right, because it’s in their head. So it's better to tell people what to do than tell them what not to do because they end up doing what you’re telling them not to do so [undo - 20:28] it.

FAREEDAH
Exactly. So instead of saying, “Don’t eat that cupcake” and all your brain is going is, “Cupcake. Cupcake. Cupcake. Cupcake.”

ROB
“Cupcake. Cupcake. Cupcake,” yeah. “Don’t eat the cupcake. Don’t eat the cupcake.” “Oh I want to eat the cupcake.” Yeah, you can't help it, right?

FAREEDAH
Exactly.

ROB
The human trigger.

FAREEDAH
So it’s the same thing. Same thing, yeah. Because if you say, “Don't click,” all their mind is going, “Click. Click. Click. Click. Click.” So it’s better to be like, “Okay, X out,” you know.

ROB
So grew up in Saudi Arabia. Wow.

FAREEDAH
Yeah, with [indiscernible - 20:52].

ROB
Right. You’re an African-American woman who is Muslim.

FAREEDAH
Yes.

ROB
So we have a lot to talk about here. Let's talk about growing up in Saudi Arabia. What did that teach you and what were the challenges?

FAREEDAH
There were a lot of challenges. I like to quote my mom on this to sum everything up. I know we'll go a little bit deeper. “It was a blessing and a challenge.” So the blessing in it was that it really, really made me who I am today. And there was no way that I could be doing empathetic security the way that I’m doing now had I not had those experiences. I also have a really love for the culture, languages, food, dance, all of that. It really makes me appreciate the differences in people and being able to understand someone else's point of view without actually believing it.

ROB
[Laughter] That’s really good -- “Understanding other’s point of view without actually believing it.” That’s good.

FAREEDAH
Exactly. Right. So you just go, “Okay, I see.” And it really helps when you're studying how hackers operate and putting yourself in the hacker mindset.

ROB
That’s amazing.

FAREEDAH
Yes. It really helped me with security because I go, “Okay, I see. All right. So that's why they would hack a small business as opposed to a bigger business.” And it kind of gives you an analytical thought process and it allows you to find solutions really quickly but in a way that can benefit everyone else. So that's what I loved.

ROB
Oh that's fascinating. So what did you understand by really disagree with in terms of how some things were done in Saudi Arabia? I mean we can talk about America, too. So this is not talking about one country. So don't worry. I have lots of things that disagree with here we could talk about.

FAREEDAH
Oh gosh, wow. I mean where do I begin?

ROB
First that comes to your brain. I see something. Something's up there. Whatever you were thinking right there, Fareedah, you say that way.
FAREEDAH
Honestly, the biggest thing for me was… Oh my god. It was really the lack of opportunity. And I think that was the biggest reason why I came back. I mean I was going to come back anyways. This is my home. This is my country.

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
It was the lack of understanding opportunities whether you're Black, whether you're a woman, whatever it is. Even people who are men who aren't black, whatever, they have problems as well because they aren't in a certain tribe. There’s a lot of tribal mentality there. But they're really, really trying to be a little bit more progressive. But still there's a huge culture shift that needs to happen and they are aware of it which is why they're making the shift now. But my biggest thing was really the lack of opportunity for people who wanted to be in certain fields.

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
Now I did see a headline -- and I didn't do a lot of research on this so someone else can do a little more research -- it was one of the head of cybersecurity somewhere in Saudi Arabia was a woman. And that is a major leap because we couldn't even ride bikes.

ROB
That’s a major leap for anybody to have the ability to do anything and be a woman in Saudi Arabia because it's… Yeah, that's a big challenge there.

FAREEDAH
It’s huge. Let me just… quick story and why I was like, “Oh we're not doing this.” Of course, I was looking into colleges and the first college… I can't remember the university. I feel like it was [new - 24:21] something and they had a whole thing of how people or woman can operate in the university. I love the university, period, because it was a huge campus and you didn't have to wear your scarf. You could just be on campus. All the restaurants, the activities were all there and you never had to leave campus. But the problem was, if you wanted to leave campus, you had to have a male escort.

ROB
Wow.

FAREEDAH
I was like, “Wait a minute. No.” My father was in technology and he was in charge of some of the most things that were really important. Basically, he was like a doctor on call 24/7. And I didn't have brothers. I didn't have an uncle. I didn’t have a cousin. It had to be a male relative. I didn't have that except my dad. So I’m like, “Wait a minute. I’m going to be stuck on this campus.”
No one was with it. I wasn't with it. My father wasn't with it. My mom wasn't with it. And so that's when I was like, “Okay, I need to come back and just do college here.” So that was the biggest thing that I feel that they're going to have to do a lot of work on.

ROB
Sounds like your parents played a large influence in your life, too, because your father sounds like… your mother and your father, they both sound like they're very progressive in terms of your own individual empowerment. And it sounds like they spoke life into you in an environment that was challenging.

FAREEDAH
Oh yeah.

ROB
Talk about why that was so important to you or what lessons that you really leaned on from your parents now from your experience growing up in Saudi Arabia?

FAREEDAH
So the big thing there was there's a lot of racism. Besides sexism, misogyny, there was a lot of racism.

ROB
There’s a lot of that going around. Still exist here, too.

FAREEDAH
Right. Right. Exactly. I mean I always said that I felt like I was in the… like Jim Crow laws when I was over there. I really felt the same as the people that I read the books from in terms of their stories, their autobiographies. I felt the same way.

ROB
Can you think of an experience that sticks out in your head?

FAREEDAH
Oh my god -- so many. But the first thing I can think of was the first few years I was there. I was coloring or something… So I went there as a child. And I was coloring… was a bunch of kids, all of us like Arabs. I was probably one of the only Black people there. I was coloring on something and I wanted to use someone's pen and they wouldn't give it to me because they don’t want a Black person touching their pen. That was a big thing. I had situations where someone didn't want to drink dark coffee because they didn't want to be my skin color.

ROB
Oh wow. [That means - 26:54] a lot, sounds like.

FAREEDAH
Right. They wouldn’t sit next to me because I was Black. I mean there was a lot of things. And talking about touching a Black woman's hair, they would be touching your skin, your hair, your eyes. This wasn't just your hair. And it was funny, and my experience is different because when I came back to the States, when people would ask, “Black woman, can I touch your hair,” I thought that was a good thing because at least they asked. [Laughter] I was like, “Oh they asked.” Well no, you can't.

ROB
“Thank you for asking though.”

FAREEDAH
Right, because I’ve never got asked. So I was like, “This is great.” And then other Black woman were like, “No. No. You can't touch my hair.” And then I realized that there is a huge culture. I was used to people not asking but they shouldn't… I mean the whole concept is crazy anyways. But yeah, that was my reality.

So because of that, my parents spent a lot of time giving me books that were empowerment in terms of Black empowerment or woman empowerment books and they bought a lot of those. So they made sure that I was surrounded by Black excellence in every single moment. And yeah, I was fighting two mindsets. One, that I wasn't good enough. But once I got into the house, it was like, “You're good enough. You're better and you can excel greater than your wildest dreams.” And so that was really the push and pull that I went through growing up.

ROB
So what would you tell somebody now… Let me rephrase this question a little bit. Think about a time when you are struggling with impostor syndrome, maybe when you were young. If you can tell yourself something now, what would you tell your younger self now based upon the knowledge you have now? What would you tell your younger self with the knowledge you have now? I think people need to hear that.

FAREEDAH
Yeah, definitely. I would say working on mindset first and then surrounding yourself with people that have done it that may have thought they couldn't do it -- so reading their stories, reading people who you look up to who are African-American, who are brown, whoever it is, whatever demographic you're in and looking at their stories. The first thing I would say to them really is that you're enough. But it really takes a lot of internal thinking to get to that point.

ROB
Yeah.
FAREEDAH
So reading things like Mindset by Carol Dweck or something like that that allows you to see that human beings are just human beings. What really got me through… And I always say I never really got bullied because I would just play mind games on people all the time because I read--

ROB
[Laughter]

FAREEDAH
Now I was in a situation where people weren't that… They were physical but they weren't… You're probably not going to get shot. So I was in that type of situation. This is not really working for everybody. But in the school system that I was in, it worked for them and just understanding that everyone is taking out their anger in a different way. They don't even know what they're saying when they're saying it. So when they say that “Black is ugly” or when they say that “You can’t touch my pen” or “I can't sit next to you,” they're not speaking from a place of understanding and knowing. They're speaking from a place of ignorance.

ROB
Yeah.

FAREEDAH
And I really, really had to go deep, especially as a young child, into why people have the views that they have and then not react so deeply to them based off of that. That was really… I kind of put myself in a third person in every situation to get through things.

ROB
Well that’s brilliant that you have to learn that at such a young age. It’s challenging but it's also brilliant. It's something that I’m aware of, still have challenges with. But when people say things that are hurtful, racist, whatever you want to say, it's never about you. It's always about them.

I mean we tend to take it personally as people like, “They're talking about me.” But no, they're talking about themselves. They have issues that they need to work out; they've been working out; they've been trying to work out or not work out for however long they've been on this earth. And what they said to you in this moment has nothing to do with you. And you're right, if you’re able to step back and not react emotionally, you can perceive which is why you're good at what you do.

One of the best points I think you made is that it's important that you understand technology. But it's just as important to understand people and how they think.

FAREEDAH
Exactly.
ROB
That is the most valuable skill set. Do you have any good books or recommendations for… I think I read that you've read 2000 books or something like that.

FAREEDAH
Yeah. I had about 2000 books growing up. So it’s probably more--

ROB
Oh 2000 books growing up. Oh my word. I’m sorry. Where are you now? 10,000? Geez. [Laughter]

FAREEDAH
I don't think I’m quite there yet but almost, probably. I mean I counted it because I’ve always… I grew up as an only child so I had time.

ROB
Okay. I’m going to break down this. This is somebody that have some knowledge that I want to learn from. So let me break this down -- two sections with books for knowledge because I want to know.

Okay, the best book for human psychology. What are the three books for that and then the best three books just for… whatever. Your top three books.

FAREEDAH
Okay. So for human psychology, there are so many. Anything by Malcolm Gladwell is off the chains.

ROB
I agree. I read them all, too.

FAREEDAH
Right. And then Robert Green is also really good.

ROB
Yeah. He’s been on the show by the way.

FAREEDAH
And I listened to that. I listened to that episode. [Laughter] You best believe I did. So he's good. I feel like I reached three there.

Mindset by Carol Dweck is really good as well. There was… Was it “The Art of Imperfection or… something. I think it was Bernie Brown who did that. It’s basically trying to just be yourself instead of trying everything to be perfect. I’m a type-A person, so starting the business really had me look internally and go, “Okay, Fareedah, not everything has to be perfect.” And it actually is good. So I think it was The Art of Imperfection, something like that that was--

ROB
And Mindset by… What’s her name?

FAREEDAH
Carol Dweck.

ROB
Okay. I’ll look that up. Those are good ones. So starting the business sounds like the hardest thing you do. I think I read this somewhere as well. I’m sure I did. I researched you before I did this. You talked about being comfortable, being afraid and just going anyway. Speak more to that. What do you mean by “being comfortable, being afraid”? And why is that so important?

FAREEDAH
Because I’m type-A and a perfectionist, I want to make sure that things are good and they look good. I had to really get over, “What are people going to think? What if I fail? Am I doing this too early? Do I know what I’m doing? Is this something that's going to impact people” -- all of those thoughts that you have in your head. “Am I good enough?” I really had to fight that and just do it afraid. And I had to kind of look at, “What do I have to lose” and then, “What do I have to gain?” And the loss is so much less than there is in terms of the gain.

Someone told me once when I was having those thoughts… You know, sometimes you have those thoughts out loud and it's good and someone stopped me in my tracks. She said, “Fareedah, if you wait five to 10 years to do what you need to do, there are going to be thousands if not millions of people that you could have impacted. But because you decided to focus on yourself, that you're not impacting.”

ROB
Wow.

FAREEDAH
She said, “You know, you're being selfish. Well I’m going to give you hard love right here. This is tough love. You're being selfish by thinking about yourself. You need to think about other people and then figure out, “Okay, how do I take care of myself as I’m helping other people,” not, “How do I help myself and then take care of other people slowly along the way.”” So what can make the biggest impact?

ROB
Yeah. Wow. -- Go ahead.

FAREEDAH
That’s really the conversation that I had with myself. That's how I got to the point where I’m like, “You know, I don't care. I want to create an impact. I want to do the best that I can do to bring value to the most people in the world.” And my mission, my vision, my online security movement is the way that I’m going to do it.

ROB
All right. And I believe you're going to, too. So have you failed before? If you could think about a moment that you failed or had a setback and how that helped you grow to be a better person.

FAREEDAH
I, of course, had failures during school even though I was in the Dean's List and I was a top A student or… not top A student. Look at me. I haven't even… But even though I was a good student, I am happy that I had a couple F's along the way. And I’m not saying Fs in the entire… What I’m saying like literally, the grade of an F. And the reason why I like that is because it helped me get through that as I was growing up. Then of course in business, when I first got in, I thought, “Oh I’m going to be successful immediately.” I thought I was--

ROB
We all think that, don’t we?

FAREEDAH
Right. And I’m like, “Oh my god. This--“

ROB
Yeah. Like, “I’m so awesome.”

FAREEDAH
Yeah.

ROB
And we could be. It doesn’t mean anything.

FAREEDAH
Right. “I’m so awesome” but that wasn't the way to do it. Now I’m learning the strategies to do it correctly. And I’m really excited for the journey because it taught me that while I can do it and I did have success through the failures, I had to get over the concept that, “Okay, you can be great but not everything is going to be great.”

ROB
No. That’s true.

FAREEDAH
Exactly.

ROB
A whole bunch of things are not going to be great.

FAREEDAH
Mm-hmm. [Laughter] And it doesn’t have to be.

ROB
Yeah. Nothing's going to go on a linear path. “Oh it's going to go here. We're going to go here then suddenly I’ll have a million clients and a million dollars.” No, it doesn't work that way. It’s usually up-down, backwards-forwards to actually get to your destination point. It's always a constant journey.

FAREEDAH
Exactly. Exactly.

ROB
So getting an F was your big moment. It helped you because you, I guess, had… You know, I think you and I had this in common. I actually almost failed two grades. And because of my early struggles in school… I learned that I could come back and I was behind everybody else in high school. But eventually, obviously, went on, did very well. But what I saw is that other kids that didn't have those type of setbacks and obstacles, like in law school or engineering, when they first got their first F or D, they panicked. Life is over and they quit.

FAREEDAH
Yeah. They lose it.

ROB
Right. As you said, it's a blessing and a great opportunity at the same time if you can learn to embrace the path of struggle because no matter what you do, if you try to do something that's great, there's going to be some struggle along the way.

I want to get to one of the things you talked about -- “Intentional networking” -- and why it’s important who you surround yourself with. What advice would you give folks that are just starting off in either business or maybe just starting off in their career about how to network? You're not just networking for the purpose of just going around in places. “Let me meet everybody here.” Like, how do you go about networking in an intentional way because you've talked about this before.

FAREEDAH
So I usually network in an intentional way whether it's on social media or whether it is in-person. And social media, I said, is really in the [??goal’s mind - 38:28] of people that you can meet. 99.9% of all my successes in the past few years has been because of social media relationships that I have helped in terms of help grow in-person.

My biggest thing with networking intentionally is knowing why you're networking and what you can provide value to someone else -- so just knowing your skills, knowing your strengths, knowing what you can provide to someone else and knowing your vision. So I would really work on your “Why” personally before… I wouldn't say, “Don't network” but focus on that first when you want to intentionally network and then go out and say, “Okay, how can I provide value to someone?” And honestly, sometimes, you don't know how you could provide value.

So sometimes, I’ll walk up to somebody -- and this has happened many times -- and I would go, “Look, I love what you're doing. I love your mission. I love your vision. Here's what I love. This is what I do. I have no idea how I can support you and how I can be a value but if you ever think of something, let me know. I would love to connect with you further. How can I support you?” Bam! You have a connection. You're able to build a relationship. And they may come back to do one day with a surprising offer of, “Hey, can you help me with this?”

And you build a really, really strong relationship because you're not just there to take but you're there to give -- because you can take. But in order to be a good receiver, you have to be a good giver. In order to be a good giver, you have to be a good receiver. So it's a circle.

ROB
Yeah. Yeah, it really is a circle. When you think about intentional networking in this current climate where there might be some limited physical interaction… I don't like the term “social distancing.” I really think it's “physical distancing.” We're going to still be social -- at least I am. Advise people on how to do it in terms of networking online because I do think people are not intentional about it. I think they are a lot more sloppy. Like if you're in-person, you wouldn't just say, “Hey, I’m this. Give me your number.” Right?

FAREEDAH
Exactly.

ROB
There’s still a way to do this. And I think people lose it. There is still an art to actually networking digitally. You don't just throw it out there in a sloppy way otherwise you won't get any results. Talk about the process of how you actually go about, let's say, digitally networking for people that you haven't met. You're not being in-person but you have to make an impression online. How do you go about that? And why is it important to actually be intentional and do it in a methodical way?

FAREEDAH
I think “Research” and “Engaging” are the two biggest things. Researching the person, seeing how… “Okay, how can I fit into the picture of their business or their life? How can I provide the most value?” My biggest word is “Value. Value. Value.” “Impact and value.”
When I go through their social media, I’ll follow them. I will engage in their post. If they have a Facebook group, I’ll go into their Facebook group. I might ask an admin, “Okay, what are the things that I can post?”

So what I did throughout the years is I would give free security tips or give the latest… I wouldn't give a lot of new stories because that can be really bombarding at times but just slowly kind of inserting myself, helping other people. And then you start to get noticed because it's like, “Okay, this is someone who came in but they're just not going to be in the sidelines. They only come out when they want something. They're there constantly in front of your face and helping you and bringing value.”

So really, the biggest thing is figuring out who you want to connect with. What is your “Why?” I know I like to connect with small business owners, people who are doing an impact, who have a vision and a mission to help people socially, whatever business, whatever it is. And then I will engage in their communities, engage in their Facebook posts as genuinely as I can. I’m not going to be faking Fareedah. This is really me. If I really liked something, I really do. And if I comment, I really am commenting the same thing I would post in a friend’s posts. Just being yourself but also having a mission to be there for them if need be.

ROB
That makes total sense -- not making it all about yourself. Make it about understanding… This goes back to what you've said many times over, which is why you're good at what you do, is that you have to actually understand the people that you're trying to reach. Actually, seek to add value before you take because most people, they log on and say, “Well can you do something for me? Let's do business. Give me some money.” It’s like, “I don't even know who you are. We've never met. I don't know anything about you. You clearly don't know anything about me except for you to want to do business with me.” There is a way to do this. And to do it successfully, you need to be intentional about it.

Okay, I want to get to some legacy questions in. But before that, before I get to our last kind of legacy questions, I want to talk a little more about the coronavirus at this moment. Maybe this is something that will be in passing and this won't mean much. I have a feeling though, no matter what, even if we are not talking about the coronavirus a year from now, this has made an impact on how humans interact. It has made an impact on anyone who is living through this time. What advice do you give small business owners and regular individuals that are navigating these times about how to move forward in a world post-coronavirus?

FAREEDAH
My biggest thing since I talk about security a lot, and you really gave a preview to this before, is that the cyber criminals are upping their tax right now. They've attacked WHO. They are impersonating World Health Organization, the CDC. They're putting out a lot of cyber-attacks. They're putting a lot of things or scams out there and people have been getting it. So understanding, even as the COVID-19 ends or the coronavirus ends, your business will still be impacted in a security way and being cognizant of that and investing in security is really important as you move forward. Right now, it's really important to be aware of the attacks that are happening.

A lot of cyber criminals or hackers, they're impersonating local governments, local hospitals, your kids’ school, whatever it is for you to click on something. Well there are safety measures. A new cure, a vaccine, new cases in your area, more supplies, all of those things is something that you want to be aware of right now because it's happening at a grand scale and all of it, of course, is to take your information, install malware, take your money. But moving forward, even as it ends, to still be vigilant, still be aware of what's happening and move your company forward.

We're going to get through this. We have got through so many things before. So it's important to not overwhelm yourself with the news whether it's cybersecurity, whether it's something else, and not overwhelm yourself with the steps that you need to take for your business. I always say that “overwhelm” is the biggest roadblocker. You can know as much as you can know but if you can't move forward then it's really difficult for you to actually protect yourself actually move forward in a way that can positively impact your clients, your community, your tribe, etcetera.

ROB
So well said. You made a few thoughts circle here in my head. One is: Thinking about how to tackle disinformation in the digital world, anything can be a reality even if it's not based in anything in fact. And it can feel like the reality because as you know… The algorithms on Facebook and Instagram, there's some great things about them but the bad things about them is that they will just regurgitate what they think you want to hear even if it's crazy, not based in reality.

Thoughts about how we tackle our disinformation and then just not letting ourselves be socially outraged all the time, not realizing that what we're doing is really feeding our pre-existing condition of our human nature to do crazy things. I think social media does that, too – grandiosity, judging other people. This vacuum that we found ourselves in, it’s provided opportunities -- It’s how we met frankly -- but it also has challenges. What do we do to guard ourselves against this?

FAREEDAH
I would say, first, it's okay to react to things. So I did say before where you kind of put yourself in a third person; you look at the situation. We're not really robotic, right? We're human beings. So I have reactions, too. When someone says something crazy to me or something that's insensitive, I’m going to have a reaction. But it's important to… because we're all going to be emotional. But it's important to have those emotions behind closed doors with your family, with your friends and then think--

ROB
Not on social media.

FAREEDAH
And not on… Oh my god, not on social media. [Laughter]

ROB
Those posts where everybody says… They spill out all their feelings about… Oh god, somebody talk to this person, please.

FAREEDAH
And that's actually a security threat, too, where if you put too much out there, it's easier for them to create something to target you. So that's not just for a privacy or just for your level-headedness, it’s really just for security as well. I mean you can put your thoughts out there, just be aware that it's out there and it can be used against you if someone wants to in terms of having you click on something or provide a really compelling phishing email or whatever.

My biggest thing is research and going internally within yourself and knowing that you're human, too, and you're not perfect. That's my biggest thing. If I see something on social media, okay, verify it with a couple sources that you know are legitimate. Research it, figure out your own opinion and then go on about your day whether you're going to try to fight against it or you're going to decide, “You know what? That’s not a fight that I’m willing to have. I’m going to fight for something else.” Whatever it is, at least be informed in your own way and then figure out your course of action from there.

ROB
Yeah. And what really concerns me is just the level of sophistication that cyber criminals are getting to. -- That's the last point then we'll get to those legacy questions.

There's now technology that can impersonate my voice as you know. It sounds like me. It is me for everybody else. So you can have somebody call in and say, “This is Rob. Please send $50,000 over here.” This is the level of sophistication that we're getting to.

So I want people to understand that we really have to get our head around this and really think of it the same way you protect your physical assets. Your digital assets are more valuable and easier to get to so why would you not have measures in place?

So remind me, I want to connect you with one of my co-hosts who I think could connect you to a lot of folks that you really could help. I mean this is another way of… People buy life insurance or things like that. This is some type of insurance you should have. I definitely want to talk to you even more after I’ve had these discussions. You're making me think more because I’m thinking about all the ways people could expose me because… It's the nature of what I do. I have everything out here. It just is what it is. I’m always going to be a person… This is my gift to the world. I’m always going to do this so I have to figure out a way to protect myself.

Okay, legacy questions. I have three questions for you. You ready?

FAREEDAH
All right, I’m ready. More than ready.

ROB
All right. Cool. What is one important truth you have that very few people agree with you on?

FAREEDAH
Whoa -- “One important truth that I have that very few people agree with me on?”

ROB
Yep. It’s got to be controversial.

FAREEDAH
It’s got to be controversial. Man.

ROB
I’m sure you have some controversial beliefs.

FAREEDAH
I may have. I mean everyone has something.

ROB
Everybody does.

FAREEDAH
I would think for me… and I feel like it's not because the world is slowly changing, where people are being more mindful but understanding that you are really human. So everything that you see in someone else can be you and you need to stop it before it gets there.

I have a firm belief that if you believe that you can possibly never ever do something... which I have things like that because I can't function, right, if I believe I can do something. The moment you believe you can never ever, ever, ever, ever in any which way or form do something is the moment that you're vulnerable. And you should always protect yourself from the mindset that “It can never ever be me.” And it's really, really difficult, right…

ROB
It is.

FAREEDAH
…because you see some crazy things out there that I believe I would never ever do but you make sure that, internally, you're stopping yourself from even getting to the point that you could possibly maybe be there. And the reason being is because if you truly believe that you never could get to a certain point, the warning signs when they come up, you will not pay attention to them because you're such in a mindset of “It will never happen to me.”

And that really happens with security as well is, “I would never ever be hacked.” But stuff starts happening. Oh no, computer is malfunctioning. “I think my daughter used my credit card. It’s totally fine. I think she was in China last year.” I mean things like that where you're not paying attention to the warning signs.

So I believe, really, that we should all really focus internally more than we focus externally. And we focus so much on what someone else is doing and why they're doing it and blah-blah-blah but if we focus more internally about what we are doing then we can help guide other people to focus internally as well. It will be a better place. I’m not saying it's going to be heaven or paradise but it's going to be something where people are working towards a greater good because they're fighting the lesser part of themselves internally every single day.

ROB
Very well said. Very well said. All right, so next question: You have a billboard or a Google ad, just to be more 2020, that is a saying that says what you believe. What does that say and why?

FAREEDAH
The first thing that popped in my head was, “I am human.”

ROB
Yeah, and you’ve explained that.

FAREEDAH
And I explained that before. That’s my deepest thing, where everything I do is understanding that I can have emotions, other people can have an emotion, and to be empathetic to other people. And it's going to be really difficult. I’m not a person that believes in everyone -- you have to forgive everyone; you have to love everybody. That's not me.

ROB
[Laughter]

FAREEDAH
That may be my controversial thing. I probably should have said that. I don't believe that, you know. I mean you don't have to forgive everybody. You don't have to love everybody. But you do have to understand that they're human and go about your way.

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
You don't have to engage. Not engaging is not evil and engaging is not great. There’s not a black and white. There's always a gray area. And that gray area could be, “You know what? I don't have to forgive this person. I don't have to love this person. But I also don't have to do bad on them. I don't need to be an evil person.” And I can just leave and do what's best for myself.

ROB
True.

FAREEDAH
That’s my biggest thing is I would always say, “I’m human.” My Toastmasters speech were about that. My blogs are about that. Everything I do is about that. So I would say “I am human” is what I would say.

ROB
Well it's very well stated. That was a good controversial statement particularly, you know, a lot of the Black community and… I am a Christian but I think I have a very progressive view on what I believe it is to be a Christian, by the way, because I view it as like me loving you doesn't mean that I have to like you. It doesn't mean you got to come over. It doesn't mean I excuse what you've done. It does mean that I don't allow myself to absorb the hate that you're giving off. That's what I think it means.

When horrible things happen, Black folks particularly are almost expected to forgive like immediately, like without any reflection time. I’m like, “This is crazy.” I’m not saying forgiving isn't a graceful thing to do and isn't a spiritual thing to do but you're not entitled to forgiveness after you do something horrible. And I think that's been almost the expectation when something happens to the victim, particularly when the victim is of color. Like I don't remember those conversations with other people like, “Oh are you going to forgive them?” I don't remember people asking people after their loved one is murdered. “Are you going to forgive them?” Like, you’re asking--

FAREEDAH
Right. Exactly. I honestly believe that forgiveness, sometimes, is used as a weapon of people who are inflicting pain to other people.

ROB
I agree.

FAREEDAH
It’s used as a weapon and I don't believe it should be. I believe that forgiveness is something that's absolutely beautiful and it's something that is a choice that someone has to personally make for themselves and come to the conclusion for themselves forever long, whether it takes them five minutes, five seconds, 10 years, 20 years or…

ROB
Or a lifetime.

FAREEDAH
…or a lifetime. But they have to come to that. You should never say, “You should forgive,” right? And there's this huge concept of, “You have to forgive in order to heal yourself or move on” and that's not true either. You can heal and move on without forgiving somebody. Forgiveness doesn't have to be something that’s hold… is something that's holed up inside of you and you can't let it go. “Sometimes, I don't forgive you for doing that and I really am upset that you did that. However, I understand that you’re a human.”

ROB
Yeah. That’s a controversial truth. That’s good.

FAREEDAH
Right.

ROB
Yeah. This is good.

FAREEDAH
Right. “And I understand why you did that in your own way” or “I don't understand why you did that. I can't forgive you for that but I do wish you the best. I need to focus on my healing and my self-care right now.” And that could be your release because release for everyone looks different. Maybe for most people… And I’m not saying this as someone who has… like I can't forgive anybody. I’m just trying to look at it from both points of views and understanding that it’s not one-sided.

Nothing ever in life is black or white. There's no always good and always bad. There's always going to be nuance every single thing which is why we're so fascinated by these murder stories or people who are doing crazy things because they go inside of the mind of the person of why they did it. Even if they did it for a reason, it doesn't forgive what they did, right?

ROB
Right.

FAREEDAH
And so it's important, I believe, to have that mindset of, “It really is up to that person.” And personally, for my belief, forgiveness can be really good and not forgiving could be really good. It's really in the intention behind it and in what is impacting personally for you because forgiveness is really used as, “You got to forgive me”
If someone does something bad to somebody, automatically, you got to forgive them. But the person who is a victim is left in pain, is left in turmoil, is left in pieces, left broken and there's no way out for them but to try to cover it up with forgiveness.

ROB
Wow. That is really deep. That is your important truth very few people agree with you on. That's a good one. All right, I’m glad we got to that. That's the real answer. That's a good one.

FAREEDAH
That was a real answer because it sounds like… Then we got to it. We got to the real heart of it.

ROB
That’s all that matters. Final question: You have a committee of three, living or dead, who could be your advisors in life, business, personal, whatever. Tell me who those three advisors are and tell me why for each one of them.

FAREEDAH
Wow -- three advisors. That is amazing. I already have one living. That's my mom who's just an amazing person and so she definitely would be in the committee. But she's already in the committee in my heart so she doesn't actually need to be sitting there. [Laughter] She already got a place.

ROB
[I would be there - 58:10].

FAREEDAH
Right? That's a really good question and I got to think about that a lot. But from the top of my head, based off of what I said--

ROB
You’ve read 10,000 books or 5000. I know you got some.

FAREEDAH
Right. Right. So I’m going to pull out probably Robert Greene. I’d love to meet him and have a conversation and figure out just the whole mind behind the books. That would be amazing.

ROB
We'll try to arrange that. I’m going to try to get him back on.

FAREEDAH
Perfect. Perfect. That's all great.

ROB
I’ll have to be the one to call. That's good.

FAREEDAH
I love that. I love that. And another person would be Malcolm Gladwell. I’m really into psychology, human nature, so it has to be those two. And then another one, in terms of building an empire, would be Oprah and understanding how to--

ROB
You got to be out in The Oprah.

FAREEDAH
Yes. Yes. I want to build an empire. I want to impact people in that way. So having a business mind… not to say that Malcolm Gladwell or Robert Greene does not have a business mind but to have her perspective on things as another African-American woman in business, in a field that is not meant for… I’m not saying “not meant for people like her to succeed” but they just didn't see that coming. I would love to have her in my--

ROB
It’s not meant for people like her to succeed. It wasn't built for people like her to succeed. She succeeded anyway. Just like this field is not built for you to succeed as a Black Muslim woman. Are you kidding me?

FAREEDAH
I’m going to do it anyway.

ROB
You're going to do it anyway because we're about breaking narratives and constructs on this show. I want to have you back on a regular basis because I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.

FAREEDAH
Perfect.

ROB
I think you have a lot to offer our community. And I would love to help you build your podcast, at least have you on as a regular guest to do that. -- Fareedah Shaheed… Did I say it right?
FAREEDAH
Yes.

ROB
Fareedah Shaheed. I said it right, right?

FAREEDAH
Yes. You got it.

ROB
Fareedah, I appreciate you coming on the show. Don't make yourself a stranger and we'll be in touch soon. Thanks so much.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]