00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,433
the digital world, it scales differently.

00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:08,633
So you don't need to call one latchkey
service at a time

00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:12,500
with AI, with being online,
you can replicate things very,

00:00:12,533 --> 00:00:15,900
very quickly
and it can be a one man shop or operation.

00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:20,033
So there's a huge difference in scale
when we're looking at this online.

00:00:20,566 --> 00:00:22,500
If you believe
we can change the narrative.

00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:24,700
If you believe,
we can change our communities.

00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:28,066
If you believe we can change the outcomes,
then we can change the world.

00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,366
I'm Rob Richardson.

00:00:30,366 --> 00:00:32,933
Welcome to disruption. Now.

00:00:32,933 --> 00:00:34,300
Welcome to Disruption Now.

00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:36,866
I'm your host and moderator,
Rob Richardson.

00:00:36,866 --> 00:00:39,700
Have you ever thought
about how your data is used?

00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:44,100
Or better yet, have you thought about
how data of your kids is being used?

00:00:44,833 --> 00:00:49,033
Do you have any idea about
how much is happening behind the scenes,

00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,400
how that can be manipulated,
how it's being manipulated?

00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,633
You know,
I don't think we thought much about it.

00:00:54,633 --> 00:00:56,366
We entered. I'm going to tell my age here.

00:00:56,366 --> 00:00:59,333
We enter the social media era
and just everything was free.

00:00:59,333 --> 00:01:00,166
We were able to connect.

00:01:00,166 --> 00:01:02,566
It was all free. It was all great.

00:01:02,566 --> 00:01:04,200
But it's not. Free.

00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,633
Nothing's free in this world.

00:01:05,633 --> 00:01:07,733
That data is not free.

00:01:07,733 --> 00:01:09,466
You are the product.

00:01:09,466 --> 00:01:11,200
You and your kids are the product.

00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,133
The question is,
are you comfortable with that?

00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:14,366
Does that matter to you?

00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:19,066
Well, we're here to actually to talk about
why data privacy matters is just not,

00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,133
you know,

00:01:20,133 --> 00:01:20,833
it's just not people

00:01:20,833 --> 00:01:23,833
that are just liberals out here
saying we need to protect our data.

00:01:24,133 --> 00:01:27,133
It's actually affecting all of us because

00:01:27,266 --> 00:01:30,833
whether you like it or not,
you are a part of the digital economy.

00:01:30,966 --> 00:01:33,966
And that's just going to amplify
now with artificial intelligence.

00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:37,866
So with me to talk about
how we can have a future that's actually,

00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:41,100
more about transparency and freedom

00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:44,400
and understanding how you can protect
yourself is John Kavanagh.

00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,733
He is the founder of the Plug Foundation.

00:01:46,733 --> 00:01:48,066
And, he's gonna

00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:51,366
tell you, a story in his journey
because it's a very interesting one.

00:01:51,533 --> 00:01:54,766
But I want you to understand
that you have the ability

00:01:54,766 --> 00:01:59,833
to protect yourself, to protect your kids,
but you have to know where to start.

00:01:59,833 --> 00:02:02,833
And we hope that by the end of this
episode, you'll actually have that.

00:02:02,866 --> 00:02:06,700
But before we start, make sure you like
make make sure you subscribe.

00:02:06,733 --> 00:02:08,433
That's how we're going
to keep the disruption growing.

00:02:08,433 --> 00:02:10,000
We appreciate you listening.

00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,333
And now I have the pleasure of introducing
John Kavanagh.

00:02:13,366 --> 00:02:14,366
John, how you doing, brother?

00:02:14,366 --> 00:02:15,166
Good. Rob.

00:02:15,166 --> 00:02:17,033
Thank you so much for the introduction.
Appreciate it.

00:02:17,033 --> 00:02:18,566
Hey, thank you so much.

00:02:18,566 --> 00:02:23,600
So you had an interesting journey
to get to data to get to data privacy.

00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,900
I like to start like this is such a

00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:29,900
we met not not not so long ago.

00:02:29,966 --> 00:02:33,066
And to me, it was clear
that you had a clear mission and focus.

00:02:33,433 --> 00:02:35,966
And I have to say,
I consider myself pretty informed.

00:02:35,966 --> 00:02:39,666
But after I left our conversation,
I became even more concerned

00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,200
about data privacy.

00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,000
I was like,
oh, this is worse than I thought.

00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,000
And, I'm just curious, how did you get
into the world of data privacy?

00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000
Like, how did this become
your kind of central? Why?

00:02:51,066 --> 00:02:51,433
Yeah.

00:02:51,433 --> 00:02:56,166
So everybody in privacy,
if you ask, they all have a wild story.

00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:59,300
Very few people just started out
passionate about this.

00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:01,300
And like you mentioned, the introduction.

00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:04,966
We all thought the products we were using
online were free and great.

00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,200
And yeah,
there were some advertising behind it.

00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:07,900
No problem.

00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:10,366
Where you see that
with television and stuff,

00:03:10,366 --> 00:03:14,400
but there's a dark side to it
and people learn that at their own pace.

00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,633
So a few people on my board, one was,

00:03:16,633 --> 00:03:20,366
a lawyer,
and he was just doing contract law,

00:03:20,533 --> 00:03:24,366
and he saw a drone go over his house,
and he was with his kids and family.

00:03:24,366 --> 00:03:27,733
And it started that question like,
you know, who's drone is that?

00:03:27,733 --> 00:03:28,033
Right?

00:03:28,033 --> 00:03:31,100
Why are they do they have now video of me
and my family?

00:03:31,233 --> 00:03:31,733
Right.

00:03:31,733 --> 00:03:34,633
So we all have those interesting ways.

00:03:34,633 --> 00:03:38,933
for me, it started back in undergrad
where I made a website.

00:03:38,933 --> 00:03:40,833
It was called Slate Up,

00:03:40,833 --> 00:03:43,633
and it was just a place
as a pre-med student

00:03:43,633 --> 00:03:46,700
where I wanted to meet other students
that were taking

00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,866
the mCAT already in med school,
because it's a huge decision.

00:03:49,966 --> 00:03:50,866
It's like a half

00:03:50,866 --> 00:03:54,066
$1 million in debt to figure out
if you like being a doctor or not.

00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:54,533
Yeah.

00:03:54,533 --> 00:03:57,166
So it was a lot of cost
to figure that out.

00:03:57,166 --> 00:03:59,600
So I built a website
to connect people similar

00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,066
to like the old school version
of Facebook. Yeah.

00:04:02,066 --> 00:04:03,833
And that was are missing
connect the world.

00:04:03,833 --> 00:04:04,333
Yeah.

00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:08,300
So I wanted to meet and connect
with people, especially professionally

00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,000
and within school.

00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,366
And it grew very fast.

00:04:11,366 --> 00:04:15,166
within the first three months,
we had one fourth of you see, on it.

00:04:15,166 --> 00:04:15,866
Yeah.

00:04:15,866 --> 00:04:20,533
And it grew in the Midwest,
Ohio State, Middle Tennessee,

00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:25,100
Clayton State University, lots of schools
in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana.

00:04:25,566 --> 00:04:29,766
And as we were growing,
we got, research grants

00:04:29,766 --> 00:04:33,433
to keep it running, but eventually
we needed a series A funding.

00:04:33,433 --> 00:04:34,300
Sure.

00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:38,166
And we weren't
we weren't keeping any data of our users.

00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,233
We were like, oh, let's just,

00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:42,066
make sure

00:04:42,066 --> 00:04:45,066
that we're taking care of them
and that everything's protected.

00:04:45,133 --> 00:04:48,833
But we just want to make sure that
the people that are using our products,

00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,333
feel good about
you know, the environment that they're in.

00:04:52,366 --> 00:04:55,266
Right? And our privacy policy
is, hey, we're not selling anything.

00:04:55,266 --> 00:04:56,866
We're not pushing any ads.

00:04:56,866 --> 00:05:01,033
And we developed, a way to make money
by selling to universities.

00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,933
So we figured that would be our pipeline
and our revenue to make money,

00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,133
which everybody agreed upon.

00:05:07,133 --> 00:05:10,133
But when we were looking at that series
A funding

00:05:10,633 --> 00:05:14,166
every single investor 50
plus that we talked to,

00:05:14,166 --> 00:05:17,200
every single one was saying,
hey, what are you doing to sell the data?

00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,333
Because that's another revenue
stream, right?

00:05:19,333 --> 00:05:22,933
And you can't ignore it to be competitive
in this day and age with tech.

00:05:23,433 --> 00:05:25,866
And I started learning
about what that really meant.

00:05:25,866 --> 00:05:30,533
So when looking through the details
of what data mining was, how it's used,

00:05:30,666 --> 00:05:34,966
who it's sold to, you enter this huge dark

00:05:34,966 --> 00:05:38,833
side of the internet
that people are vaguely familiar with.

00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,300
But when you really dive
deep down about it,

00:05:42,366 --> 00:05:45,133
you understand how they're using various

00:05:46,266 --> 00:05:47,166
parameters about

00:05:47,166 --> 00:05:50,933
your life to nudge you to a decision.

00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:52,600
It can be a political decision, right?

00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,600
It can be in buying products
at a certain time.

00:05:55,666 --> 00:05:58,033
It can be understanding
your mental health state.

00:05:58,033 --> 00:05:58,900
Are you depressed?

00:05:58,900 --> 00:05:59,733
Are you sad?

00:05:59,733 --> 00:06:02,533
Well,
you tend to buy more in this direction.

00:06:02,533 --> 00:06:05,200
and we were primarily
focused on college students

00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,300
who have, by default, pretty bad literacy.

00:06:08,366 --> 00:06:10,433
financial literacy skills. Yes.

00:06:10,433 --> 00:06:14,466
So that was one thing was like, hey,
a lot of these students are getting a lump

00:06:14,466 --> 00:06:18,666
sum that is debt, essentially,
and spending it on beer and pizza

00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:19,766
right on the weekends.

00:06:19,766 --> 00:06:23,033
But if we have an opportunity
to slip our products in there as well,

00:06:23,533 --> 00:06:26,366
where they're paying 12% interest
on whatever

00:06:26,366 --> 00:06:30,200
T-shirt company they are,
then that's good for business.

00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,433
But in the long run, it's
not sustainable for our society.

00:06:33,733 --> 00:06:35,533
And I found a lot of objections.

00:06:35,533 --> 00:06:39,733
So, me and the core group,
we decided to close down the organization

00:06:39,733 --> 00:06:41,233
and build a nonprofit.

00:06:41,233 --> 00:06:43,466
So you you mentioned me as the founder,
but there are.

00:06:43,466 --> 00:06:46,166
And I want to say that back, back, back,
back up for a minute, okay?

00:06:46,166 --> 00:06:49,600
People just have to I want to make sure
they absorb what you just said.

00:06:50,133 --> 00:06:52,700
A series funding is a big funding round.

00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:53,300
Yes, right.

00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:57,066
There is seed pre-seed series
A, you're talking

00:06:57,066 --> 00:06:59,300
minimum 5 million, probably dollars.

00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:02,733
I don't know what it was then,
but I'm guessing it's around that like so

00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:06,200
very clear. Like

00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,800
millions of dollars was offered. Yes.

00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,566
And because you weren't comfortable
with the direction

00:07:11,566 --> 00:07:14,566
of where the investors wanted
you to go with the data.

00:07:14,666 --> 00:07:17,433
You turned it down
and you started a nonprofit.

00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:18,500
Just make sure people understand that.

00:07:18,500 --> 00:07:21,200
So like it's one thing to say
that you have these principles.

00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,200
It's another thing
to actually have done it.

00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,700
What's that massive respect for. Right.
Thank you.

00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:29,566
Could have been easy by the way, but,
like, it's,

00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,200
So I want to talk about
I want you to go down the nonprofit.

00:07:34,166 --> 00:07:37,166
but I like to just deep dive into,
like, what?

00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,466
Really kind
of, sparked you to say no to that?

00:07:40,466 --> 00:07:44,000
Because it sounds like you weren't against
the idea of ads in general.

00:07:44,233 --> 00:07:46,000
It sounds like there was something there.

00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,533
Was there other things that that deeply
disturbed you to make you go from?

00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,533
It's one extreme to say, no, no,
I do this to starting a nonprofit.

00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,800
Like like what were like the top things
that really just, like, stuck out.

00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,800
There

has to be some things
that like that.

00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,300
The investors,
the people wanted to do that.

00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,066
You just didn't sit right with you.

00:08:03,066 --> 00:08:05,200
Like, what? What were those things?

00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:05,533
Yeah.

00:08:05,533 --> 00:08:09,733
So our primary focus was understanding
how students could feel at home

00:08:09,733 --> 00:08:10,933
at a university. Yes.

00:08:10,933 --> 00:08:15,133
And we were helping with,
reducing melt rate where people said,

00:08:15,133 --> 00:08:17,500
hey, I want to go to University
of Cincinnati, for example.

00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,600
But then they wouldn't at the end of the
like beginning of the school year,

00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,533
they wouldn't come because they went
to Ohio State or something as an example.

00:08:26,233 --> 00:08:28,633
a lot of that is because they just didn't
feel a sense of community.

00:08:28,633 --> 00:08:32,533
So we were helping facilitate
that sense where the resident advisors,

00:08:32,566 --> 00:08:35,733
the people that live on the dorms,
and the orientation

00:08:35,733 --> 00:08:38,966
leaders
would connect in a better facilitated way.

00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,433
Right. so people felt more at home.

00:08:41,433 --> 00:08:44,100
and then, you know,

00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,933
to be honest, I was against ads
because the business model from.

00:08:48,066 --> 00:08:49,800
Yeah, the business model that we had.

00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,433
Right. Didn't need it. Right.

00:08:51,433 --> 00:08:55,933
So everything else was like,
hey, these are slightly it was a steep,

00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,433
like a curve of more
and more invasive maneuvers.

00:08:59,466 --> 00:09:01,133
Right. Which was against the philosophy.

00:09:01,133 --> 00:09:03,333
It's like, hey,
we have a good revenue stream.

00:09:03,333 --> 00:09:05,066
universities are willing to pay for this.

00:09:05,066 --> 00:09:09,733
We had letters of intent and to buy
and everything, so we were good to go.

00:09:09,966 --> 00:09:12,033
And, they wanted you to be.

00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:15,200
I feel where you go. Is that, yes.

00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,266
You didn't like the ads, but I also think
it was the level of what you would have

00:09:18,266 --> 00:09:22,866
had to compromise
feels like for becoming for for selling.

00:09:22,866 --> 00:09:24,966
That would have meant that you would
have gone away from your mission.

00:09:24,966 --> 00:09:26,500
It feels like. Exactly.

00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:29,833
And here's another thing
is, I'm convinced in the tech world,

00:09:29,833 --> 00:09:32,833
if you are a for profit tech company,
unless you're a billionaire

00:09:32,833 --> 00:09:35,966
and you can find everything itself, at one
point you're going to be cash strapped.

00:09:35,966 --> 00:09:39,133
So if it's not the series A
that we compromise on,

00:09:39,133 --> 00:09:42,600
it's going to be a series B, 100,
100 million or something like that.

00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,600
And what's going to happen is companies
they want or investment firms

00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,600
they want somebody on the board
that makes decisions.

00:09:50,833 --> 00:09:53,566
And unless you are a super galactic

00:09:53,566 --> 00:09:56,866
unicorn like Zuckerberg,
who has all of the voting rights.

00:09:56,866 --> 00:09:59,700
But even but,
but but he had to still do that.

00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:02,433
And I don't think he has any problem
with it, actually.

00:10:02,433 --> 00:10:06,066
You know, like, I don't even say he
he doesn't share your your moral dilemma.

00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:08,166
It's not
I just think we got to be honest. Right.

00:10:08,166 --> 00:10:10,800
But but he's like he did share that.

00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,400
But you're right if it but that but also
he's following the model that they want.

00:10:14,933 --> 00:10:15,733
Yeah.

00:10:15,733 --> 00:10:20,833
Any you know he does it to like builders
have a tough job but I don't.

00:10:20,833 --> 00:10:24,366
But I do think that they don't do enough
for policy to protect people.

00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,233
And what you're saying is you

00:10:26,233 --> 00:10:27,966
if you would have done
that, you'd have had no ability

00:10:27,966 --> 00:10:30,000
to protect the people
that you're fighting for. Yes.

00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,466
And it can only get worse.

00:10:31,466 --> 00:10:33,500
Yeah. And, I. Totally respect that.

00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:36,133
Like to been able to do that. Amazing. For
this is why this is amazing.

00:10:36,133 --> 00:10:38,000
This is why I was moved to have you on.

00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000
So sorry to interrupt you,
but go ahead. Good to go.

00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,200
Thank you, I appreciate it, but to,
if I died tomorrow, let's say I'm running

00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,900
it, and I have decision, like, even
best case scenario, I have full decision.

00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,266
I die tomorrow.

00:10:49,266 --> 00:10:52,400
Whoever's taking my place,
there's nothing, there's

00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,733
no law protecting the original mission
that we have.

00:10:55,733 --> 00:10:58,733
Somebody can come in and say,
this is our business strategy.

00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:00,200
where a nonprofit has

00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,600
an articles of incorporation
that the government enforces.

00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:03,966
Right.

00:11:03,966 --> 00:11:08,133
So if our founding team, by the way,
our founding team is amazing.

00:11:08,133 --> 00:11:08,866
There's four of us.

00:11:08,866 --> 00:11:12,033
If our founding team all dies tomorrow,

00:11:12,333 --> 00:11:16,466
whoever upholds it is legally bound
to uphold our Constitution.

00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:19,700
And to change that is extremely difficult.

00:11:19,966 --> 00:11:23,533
and the people that have to change
it have to look at our, our mission

00:11:23,533 --> 00:11:24,833
and see if that follows our mission.

00:11:24,833 --> 00:11:29,133
So, that's why I made the shift to
if we're doing something

00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:31,600
in the tech space,
it needs to be a nonprofit.

00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,233
Okay. That's amazing.

00:11:33,233 --> 00:11:36,233
So, you started the Clock Foundation.

00:11:36,866 --> 00:11:39,066
Now, tell us that you moved from,

00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:42,066
you know, working to help the community
of college students.

00:11:42,533 --> 00:11:44,800
What is the foundation doing now?

00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,033
What is its mission?

00:11:46,033 --> 00:11:46,333
Yeah.

00:11:46,333 --> 00:11:49,666
So, the mission is to wake up
as many people in the same way

00:11:49,666 --> 00:11:53,933
that I was woken up when,
when I did this deep dive, it was like

00:11:54,166 --> 00:11:57,266
pulling the matrix out and like,
oh, this is really what's going on?

00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,233
and it's to do it
in a way to create awareness.

00:12:00,233 --> 00:12:03,366
So the four main principles
that we're doing is creating awareness.

00:12:03,666 --> 00:12:05,900
We want to build education off of that.

00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,233
we want to create technology
that solves for it.

00:12:09,233 --> 00:12:11,366
So it's great to say, hey, guess what?

00:12:11,366 --> 00:12:14,000
You're screwed. Rob,
I don't have any solutions for you. Right?

00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,866
Okay. That doesn't help anybody. Yeah.

00:12:15,866 --> 00:12:18,133
If we have tools and technology.

00:12:18,133 --> 00:12:19,166
So technology and tools.

00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:21,300
So the second piece second half.

00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:24,300
So awareness
education technology and tools okay.

00:12:24,633 --> 00:12:29,133
To give people the steps
that they need to protect their privacy

00:12:30,533 --> 00:12:30,933
okay.

00:12:30,933 --> 00:12:34,900
The second part of that is that we are
also not only focused on privacy,

00:

12:35,166 --> 00:12:37,400
but we're focused on digital safety, okay.

00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,566
And that's more encompassing.

00:12:38,566 --> 00:12:41,833
So similar to when we were kids,
our parents would say,

00:12:41,833 --> 00:12:44,833
don't talk to strangers or look both ways
before you cross the street.

00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:48,100
What does that mean in an ever
changing online landscape?

00:12:48,333 --> 00:12:50,200
What does it mean
when it comes to virtual reality?

00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,833
When it comes to AI, when it comes
to just using our phones or our laptops?

00:12:54,133 --> 00:12:59,233
And how do we inform our children,
how to inform families and, keep that

00:12:59,233 --> 00:13:04,300
as a thread that we are on the pulse
for whatever advancing technologies come.

00:13:04,533 --> 00:13:04,933
Yeah.

00:13:04,933 --> 00:13:07,733
Give some examples.
Like so people think digital safety.

00:13:07,733 --> 00:13:10,066
and you gave me
some really great examples.

00:13:10,066 --> 00:13:13,366
But like people don't people
don't appreciate what that means.

00:13:13,366 --> 00:13:16,066
Tell me, why should people care
about digital safety?

00:13:16,066 --> 00:13:18,766
Yeah,
I think people have some idea of privacy

00:13:18,766 --> 00:13:22,333
and that feels easier because it's like,
all right, you can, you can.

00:13:22,333 --> 00:13:24,533
You get to choose
what level you want to do.

00:13:24,533 --> 00:13:26,966
Do you want to have your information
there? Do you not.

00:13:26,966 --> 00:13:29,266
And that needs to be in an informed
consent way

00:13:29,266 --> 00:13:31,033
where we actually understand
what you're telling us. Yeah.

00:13:31,033 --> 00:13:33,233
Not a 10,000 page terms condition.

00:13:33,233 --> 00:13:35,666
This where you can sell your information,
it can be sold to anybody.

00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:37,666
Are you comfortable with that
or not? Yeah.

00:13:37,666 --> 00:13:40,433
And then people need to really have
that versus whatever we have now.

00:13:40,433 --> 00:13:43,833
It's like not informed consent
I believe that's pretty dumb.

00:13:44,233 --> 00:13:47,866
I think overall people understand what
privacy means and why that's important.

00:13:48,366 --> 00:13:49,800
What do you mean by digital safety.

00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,133
Yeah.

00:13:50,133 --> 00:13:53,633
So digital safety has a lot of,
general threads.

00:13:53,833 --> 00:13:59,166
So it can be a mix of cybersecurity,
such as when you are creating a password,

00:13:59,166 --> 00:14:01,733
are you creating a long password
a short password.

00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:05,466
do you have authentication, multi-factor
authentication

00:14:05,633 --> 00:14:10,066
so that if somebody finds your password,
you get sent something on your phone

00:14:10,066 --> 00:14:12,466
saying, did you approve of this password
being sent?

00:14:12,466 --> 00:14:14,966
There are little things,
like very basic things.

00:14:14,966 --> 00:14:17,566
Are you updating your devices regularly?

00:14:17,566 --> 00:14:18,600
there are things

00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,500
such as what are the next scams
that are happening on TikTok or Facebook?

00:14:22,733 --> 00:14:26,233
we now know with AI there have been
phone calls that are replicating

00:14:26,233 --> 00:14:29,233
somebody's voice because all you need
is a six second sample.

00:14:29,266 --> 00:14:33,033
So those types of things
that I need to understand,

00:14:33,033 --> 00:14:36,766
that if I'm a mom
and my kid calls me from a phone

00:14:36,766 --> 00:14:39,333
and it sounds like them,
but it's not registered, I don't know,

00:14:39,333 --> 00:14:40,533
it's their actual phone number.

00:14:40,533 --> 00:14:42,666
And they're saying, hey, mom,
I need money, right?

00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,733
For you to have some street smarts.

00:14:44,733 --> 00:14:46,500
Yeah, some digital street smarts.

00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:48,633
Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.
Yeah, exactly.

00:14:48,633 --> 00:14:49,633
That's a good that's a really good.

00:14:49,633 --> 00:14:50,700
That's a really good example.

00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:54,466
Like, I remember growing up,
my parents and I had a, had

00:14:54,466 --> 00:14:58,200
I had a password between the family
that only 3 or 4 people knew.

00:14:58,433 --> 00:15:02,100
If that was so, you would know, actually,
if somebody said

00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:05,633
that they were trying to pick you up
because this is going to age me again.

00:15:05,633 --> 00:15:06,800
But we were latchkey kids, right?

00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,166
So, like, sometimes we were,
which is never happens now.

00:15:10,166 --> 00:15:14,166
Like, you get picked up by people
and, and uncles,

00:15:14,166 --> 00:15:17,700
and we would only know
that if people would know a password.

00:15:18,066 --> 00:15:19,433
Hardly
anybody ever picked me up, by the way.

00:15:19,433 --> 00:15:21,700
But it's usually I just went home myself.

00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:27,133
But they they would tell us that
because kids were getting kidnaped, right?

00:15:27,133 --> 00:15:29,600
When people were, saying,
oh, you're your father.

00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,466
I'm a friend with your father. Right?
And he told me to take you home.

00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:32,700
Yeah.

00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:35,766
And like, so kids
sometimes wouldn't know the difference.

00:15:35,766 --> 00:15:36,700
You know the father's name.

00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:38,900
They say. You know this,
I know this about your family.

00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,000
So you assume that kids are more trusting

00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,133
that haven't been through the level of,
exposure and experience that adults have.

00:15:45,233 --> 00:15:48,133
So we had we had, like,
passwords that we all have to know.

00:15:48,133 --> 00:15:51,100
And it's funny, like,
I feel like that needs to come back now.

00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:52,333
Like people. People didn't.

00:15:52,333 --> 00:15:54,833
People don't think about that as much now,
but it's it's

00:15:54,833 --> 00:15:56,133
because people don't get strangers.

00:15:56,133 --> 00:15:58,633
Don't pick up the kids. Most,
we have helicopter people now.

00:15:58,633 --> 00:16:01,666
Our moms and dads, like,
everything is like, encapsulated,

00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,033
but it's not really
what did with the digital world, is it?

00:16:05,033 --> 00:16:05,800
It's not.

00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,966
And the digital world,
it scales differently.

00:16:10,633 --> 00:16:15,166
So you don't need to call one latchkey
service at a time

00:16:15,433 --> 00:16:19,033
with AI, with being online,
you can replicate things very,

00:16:19,066 --> 00:16:22,433
very quickly
and it can be a one man shop or operation.

00:16:22,433 --> 00:16:26,566
So there's a huge difference in scale
when we're looking at this online.

00:16:26,666 --> 00:16:27,033
Yeah.

00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:30,133
I also remember an example
that we, that we talked when we first met.

00:16:30,133 --> 00:16:34,900
Yeah, about how digital safety affects
the most vulnerable populations.

00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,166
Like I love for you to
to to talk through that example.

00:16:37,166 --> 00:16:41,733
We talked about like women
that are for example, like women

00:16:41,733 --> 00:16:46,266
that are recovering from,
violent acts and domestic abuse.

00:16:46,266 --> 00:16:46,633
Yeah.

00:16:46,633 --> 00:16:49,400
Like that go to organizations like Women
Helping Women.

00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400
You know, you really talked about
how digital safety can affect,

00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,833
people like that, that I never thought
about, talk about, like,

00:16:56,033 --> 00:16:59,200
why even even the
most vulnerable populations

00:17:00,266 --> 00:17:02,800
could actually be, more at risk as well.

00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:03,166
Yeah.

00:17:03,166 --> 00:17:07,333
So what we're seeing a lot
now in the landscape through our research

00:17:07,333 --> 00:17:11,266
is that there's various
areas, there's human trafficking,

00:17:11,266 --> 00:17:14,000
there's intimate partner
violence and domestic abuse,

00:17:14,000 -->

00:17:15,966
that we're seeing
a lot of these things happening.

00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:19,033
And then there's school
bullying and sextortion.

00:17:19,033 --> 00:17:25,033
So, let's go to to the first example
is that, in women's shelters,

00:17:25,266 --> 00:17:31,033
there's research that's been done
in Europe that found that 79% of women

00:17:31,233 --> 00:17:35,933
who went to a shelter for domestic abuse
were tracked in some way or form online.

00:17:36,133 --> 00:17:37,300
Wow. There.

00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:40,366
But the national Network to End
Domestic Violence, which is here in,

00:17:40,366 --> 00:17:45,800
in the US, you know,
they found that it was 100% of people,

00:17:46,266 --> 00:17:49,333
and now they surveyed,
probably like a couple thousand less.

00:17:49,333 --> 00:17:52,733
but either way, the survey was over
3000 people.

00:17:52,933 --> 00:17:56,600
So it is a significant amount of people
who are saying that online,

00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,433
I'm being tracked.

00:17:57,433 --> 00:18:00,400
And this could be
if my Snapchat location is on

00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,666
for those that you Snapchat, it could be
my car.

00:18:02,666 --> 00:18:05,500
is being tracked. It could be my phone.

00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:07,066
It could be more,

00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:11,100
like the Apple AirTags,
which are very common to slip into a car.

00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,266
I just talked to a young woman
who had that happened to her.

00:18:13,266 --> 00:18:14,933
She has no idea who is from.

00:18:14,933 --> 00:18:17,466
So there are various ways
of tracking and stalking.

00:18:17,466 --> 00:18:20,366
That's that's done.
So how does Snapchat tracking chat?

00:18:20,366 --> 00:18:21,700
You can turn your location on.

00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:25,533
They have an they have a piece
that's called Snapchat maps.

00:18:25,566 --> 00:18:27,066
Right. And you can turn your location on.

00:18:27,066 --> 00:18:29,233
You can see where people are at at all
times. Yeah.

00:18:29,233 --> 00:18:30,866
And it's pretty common for her.

00:18:30,866 --> 00:18:33,966
Used to have that on
some are very selective about

00:18:33,966 --> 00:18:37,000
which friends have it,
but some partners may demand

00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,933
that you have these types of things on,
and if you don't, you will get in trouble.

00:18:40,933 --> 00:18:41,566
As an example.

00:18:40,933 --> 00:18:41,566
As an example.

00:18:41,566 --> 00:18:44,433
And what type of tools do they have
in place, like you said, like this is

00:18:45,433 --> 00:18:46,866
like Snapchat should probably do

00:18:46,866 --> 00:18:51,166
a lot more to warn to warn kids, or
maybe turn that on and off to say, do you?

00:18:51,466 --> 00:18:53,800
I know, like, Apple
at least started doing that.

00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,900
Like, do you want to stay
or do you want to stay on?

00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,966
But I think with kids
they probably needs to be

00:18:57,966 --> 00:19:00,566
another level of, protection and safety.
Absolutely.

00:19:00,566 --> 00:19:02,100
And kids are using it
all the time to figure out,

00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:04,933
like who's at what party
or where they're going with things to.

00:19:04,933 --> 00:19:07,100
That's that's tough. Like,

00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,100
so how do you balance this
when you think about like,

00:19:11,533 --> 00:19:16,700
how do we balance the obviously
the innovation and having the right

00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:20,700
balance between what, what I guess
policy or regulation needs to look like?

00:19:20,933 --> 00:19:25,366
obviously you and I are both believers
in policy and regulation somewhere here

00:19:25,366 --> 00:19:29,233
that and say like you create regulation,
it's going to kill innovation.

00:19:29,333 --> 00:19:30,133
Yeah, right.

00:19:30,133 --> 00:19:32,466
That's the line.
What's your response to that.

00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:34,700
Yeah, that's a that's a good question.

00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:39,933
I the way that I think about it
is that most organizations

00:19:39,933 --> 00:19:43,933
that are, that are doing
this, have good intentions,

00:19:43,933 --> 00:19:47,900
they're trying to make good products,
and I don't blame them at all.

00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,200
The areas that I'm really looking toward,

00:19:51,466 --> 00:19:54,233
is when it comes to bad actors.

00:19:54,233 --> 00:19:56,500
So when it comes to corporate
policy and privacy,

00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,333
there is this culture of surveillance
capitalism. Yes.

00:19:59,333 --> 00:20:01,333
The The Punk Foundation doesn't
focus on that,

00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:04,833
although where where that happens,
we're more focused on how we can help

00:20:04,833 --> 00:20:07,933
with bad actors, but, help
fight against bad actors.

00:20:07,933 --> 00:20:08,366
Sorry.

00:20:08,366 --> 00:20:11,633
and but when we look
at the, the corporate area,

00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:14,366
the way that I see it

00:20:14,366 --> 00:20:17,466
and this is a, the more personal take,
but the way that I see it

00:20:17,466 --> 00:20:22,700
is that they have been using a technology
before regulation.

00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:26,633
So everything before regulation
is sort of a gravy train for them.

00:20:26,633 --> 00:20:27,600
But there are.

00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,433
But then the consequences that they have

00:20:30,433 --> 00:20:33,433
will not allow for what they're doing
to be sustainable in the long run.

00:20:33,433 --> 00:20:33,800
Right?

00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,866
If they're if they're taking everything
and bastardize it and sucking it in

00:20:38,066 --> 00:20:38,900
and turning it out is

00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,766
I you're going to have a lot of problems
of quality data that exists.

00:20:43,033 --> 00:20:45,966
You're going to have a lot of problems of,

00:20:45,966 --> 00:20:50,533
taking and, and,
just having massive amounts of siloed data

00:20:50,533 --> 00:20:53,266
that when cyber attacks happen,
now you have data

00:20:53,266 --> 00:20:56,033
you shouldn't have collected to begin with
or you should have purged.

00:20:56,033 --> 00:20:59,033
And now it's affecting
as a national security risk.

00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,100
So, the Biden administration
actually released,

00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:07,233
about around October,
a bill for cyber security

00:21:07,233 --> 00:21:11,200
where they're funding,
for people to get jobs in cybersecurity.

00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,133
And this does tie into privacy
and digital safety,

00:21:14,133 --> 00:21:18,166
but they want to because all of the top
businesses are not equipped,

00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,400
for example, what China has

00:21:21,566 --> 00:21:25,400
when it comes to their, ability to hack.

00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,666
As an example,
when it comes to missile launching,

00:21:27,666 --> 00:21:30,100
when it comes
to, let's say, if P&G shuts down,

00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:34,233
you know, because of cyber, cyber
attacks or something along those lines,

00:21:34,366 --> 00:21:37,933
or a coordinated effort
that shuts down multitudes of hospitals.

00:21:38,066 --> 00:21:42,166
So we're looking at this from a national
security and defense, type of thing.

00:21:42,166 --> 00:21:45,666
And businesses in the United States
have a lot of freedom compared

00:21:45,666 --> 00:21:51,866
to a lot of other countries to navigate,
but we need some type of unity of

00:21:51,866 --> 00:21:55,800
how are we protecting our citizens,
which in turns protects the country.

00:21:55,933 --> 00:21:59,566
So it is a national security risk,
by the Biden administration.

00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,200
that's very, very interesting.

00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,100
It's a national security risk.

00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:07,033
And so you kind of answer
one of my questions like, how do you see

00:22:07,033 --> 00:22:07,900
navigating this?

00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:12,133
If you were,
I guess, president and ruler for a day

00:22:12,133 --> 00:22:16,166
where you had the control of Congress
and your president and Senate,

00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,733
what laws would you pass to, to,

00:22:19,733 --> 00:22:23,433
to to help us with both privacy
and digital safety?

00:22:23,733 --> 00:22:24,066
Yeah.

00:22:24,066 --> 00:22:29,166
So I think mimicking the GDPR is probably
the best place to start in America.

00:22:29,166 --> 00:22:30,433
Tell me what the GDPR is. Yeah.

00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:34,500
So that's the
the European Union's, privacy law.

00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:37,766
And it's, basically it's global.

00:22:37,766 --> 00:22:40,200
So it's like imagine
be a federal law here.

00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200
And, it controls,

00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,266
what amount of data
a company can collect the limits.

00:22:46,266 --> 00:22:49,866
And,
it's very complicated and very thorough.

00:22:50,533 --> 00:22:53,733
but the main thing is
that your privacy is a fundamental right.

00:22:54,166 --> 00:22:57,766
And to have access as a company
or as an organization to the privacy,

00:22:57,766 --> 00:23:00,766
the person needs very clear
consent saying, yes.

00:23:00,833 --> 00:23:03,266
Exactly.
And they can revoke that at any time.

00:23:03,266 --> 00:23:06,200
And they say, hey, never mind.
I don't want you to have my data.

00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,333
The only exceptions,
there's a few exceptions

00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:11,333
and I'm not an expert on GDPR,
but there are a few exceptions

00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,033
that when it comes to like a court case
as an example.

00:23:14,033 --> 00:23:16,933
Yeah. So fairly reasonable exceptions.

00:23:16,933 --> 00:23:17,300
Right.

00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:22,966
and but the most important philosophical
thing in the difference is that in

00:23:22,966 --> 00:23:26,733
the United States, privacy is an asset
that you trade for services.

00:23:27,766 --> 00:23:28,433
That's good.

00:23:28,433 --> 00:23:28,633
Yeah.

00:23:28,633 --> 00:23:31,600
And you're that's bad
but it's a good line.

00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,433
so yeah it's a bar.

00:23:33,433 --> 00:23:34,233
Yeah. It's a bar.

00:23:34,233 --> 00:23:37,233
It's a bar. But like is that is bad. Yes.

00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:40,066
Say that again one more time
because I think that's important is

00:23:40,066 --> 00:23:41,400
to drop the bar again okay.

00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,933
So in the United States privacy
is an asset that you trade for services.

00:23:45,933 --> 00:23:47,866
Convenience, whatever that is.

00:23:47,866 --> 00:23:50,466
in Europe it's a fundamental human right.

00:23:50,466 --> 00:23:54,333
And the United Nations that actually
they have a, bill of fundamental

00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:54,933
human rights.

00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:58,666
Article 12 is about privacy
is of being a fundamental human right.

00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:04,333
And to be frank, in the developing world,
the US is very behind on this. Yes.

00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,133
and we have patchwork laws.

00:24:06,133 --> 00:24:10,200
So like California has CcpA,
which is the California Privacy Act

00:24:11,033 --> 00:24:14,400
and it's emulated from European Union's
GDPR.

00:24:14,566 --> 00:24:16,633
Right. So they're they're using that.

00:24:16,633 --> 00:24:18,166
But that's only in California.

00:24:18,166 --> 00:24:18,766
Right.

00:24:18,766 --> 00:24:21,766
And Colorado has a few things
Virginia has a few things.

00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,933
Kentucky is passing a bill.

00:24:23,933 --> 00:24:27,233
And it's it's like a slap on the wrist
for organizations that violate it.

00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:29,000
But it's a start. Right?

00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,800
So there are various
we call it a patchwork framework.

00:24:32,966 --> 00:24:33,200
Right.

00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,433
but there's nothing federal
that's, that's happening.

00:24:36,433 --> 00:24:41,000
And that's something that would be
ideally the best place to start.

00:24:41,466 --> 00:24:44,900
Oh, no, that's that's,
very well said. So.

00:24:45,233 --> 00:24:47,900
All right. They we don't have policy now.

00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:50,800
It's obviously in the US is the wild,
wild West.

00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,133
Privacy is an asset.

00:24:52,133 --> 00:24:55,133
It's not a right in in the US
unfortunately.

00:24:55,466 --> 00:24:57,833
what are some steps people can take.

00:24:57,833 --> 00:24:59,800
Like what are some practical steps
you talked about for you

00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,200
you talked about having multiple,
forms of authentication.

00:25:05,066 --> 00:25:08,433
what are some things that you think were
some basic things people can do

00:25:08,666 --> 00:25:12,200
or places they can go to learn about steps
they can take to protect themselves?

00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,600
Yeah. So I think that when it comes

00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,733
to individuals,
just being aware is half the battle.

00:25:18,933 --> 00:25:19,266
Yeah.

00:25:19,266 --> 00:25:22,300
Because when you're aware of
what's actually happening, there are few

00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:22,933
resources.

00:25:22,933 --> 00:25:25,400
The Plug Foundation's
website, it's Plunk Foundation.

00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,933
Org plunk.

00:25:26,933 --> 00:25:27,800
Yes. By the way, it's

00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,900
an acronym for peaceful, loving,
uplifting, nurturing and kind.

00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:33,700
So that's why plunk. There you go.

00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,566
so plunk
foundation.org has resources on this.

00:25:36,566 --> 00:25:39,566
There are other things
such as the center for Humane Technology,

00:25:39,733 --> 00:25:43,266
the Mozilla Foundation,
DuckDuckGo has a blog.

00:25:43,266 --> 00:25:46,300
It's like a Google search engine
that's that's privacy centric.

00:25:46,633 --> 00:25:50,100
there are
there's the International Association

00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,100
for Privacy Professionals, AIA.

00:25:53,333 --> 00:25:55,300
Those are all really good resources.

00:25:55,300 --> 00:26:00,333
The EFF has a really, really good
write ups on such things, such as like

00:26:00,333 --> 00:26:04,866
police surveillance and how that's
being used and, things you can do about.

00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:08,166
And they also have a ton of lawyers
on their team

00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:13,100
that actually go to battle in court and
try to win cases when it comes to privacy,

00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:17,566
those are all really good things
in terms of practical, actionable steps.

00:26:18,033 --> 00:26:21,100
we are building a curriculum
at plunk to do this.

00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:22,633
and to put it

00:26:22,633 --> 00:26:25,900
online and make it available,
but extremely basic.

00:26:25,933 --> 00:26:27,333
I'll give it a few,
like right off the bat.

00:26:27,333 --> 00:26:29,000
Yeah. extremely basic.

00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,133
one is
make sure your devices are updated.

00:26:32,633 --> 00:26:36,233
if you even if you have good privacy
in place, if the device isn't updated,

00:26:36,233 --> 00:26:37,633
it's easy to get into.

00:26:37,633 --> 00:26:40,200
So make sure you update your device
hands down.

00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,033
That's that's the best thing to
is that you want to make sure

00:26:44,033 --> 00:26:48,866
that you have at least a junk
email address where you can if you

00:26:49,433 --> 00:26:51,500
if you go to a store
and they ask for your email address

00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,933
for 20% off, 30% off, whatever that is,
typically I would say don't do it.

00:26:55,933 --> 00:26:57,700
But if you want to make it easy,
just have a junk

00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:02,066
email address, with information
that's not relevant to you.

00:27:02,066 --> 00:27:04,800
it doesn't have your address, stuff
like that.

00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,233
That's a good way to go about it.

00:27:06,233 --> 00:27:10,266
And here's a really interesting one that,
if you go to the doctor

00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,566
and they or if you go pretty much anywhere
and they want to scan your ID,

00:27:15,933 --> 00:27:16,300
they don't

00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:20,133
need to scan your ID, they can verify that
it's you and you can say, hey,

00:27:20,133 --> 00:27:23,466
I would like for you, you can verify
this is me, but you don't need to scan it.

00:27:23,666 --> 00:27:23,966
Right?

00:27:23,966 --> 00:27:26,133
Because a lot of companies take that,
they scan it,

00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:29,466
and now they have a ton of information
about you that they don't need,

00:27:29,633 --> 00:27:33,933
and they store it, or they resell it or
share it with other third party members.

00:27:34,266 --> 00:27:35,733
And you don't need to do that.

00:27:35,733 --> 00:27:36,466
So if you have a kid

00:27:36,466 --> 00:27:39,900
or anything along those lines too,
don't need to do any of that scanning.

00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,833
you don't need to give your social
for a lot of places.

00:27:42,833 --> 00:27:45,733
So it's always good when somebody says,
May I have your social?

00:27:45,733 --> 00:27:49,200
You can ask, is that required for us
to continue this transaction?

00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,366
Right.
even at a doctor's office? It's not.

00:27:51,366 --> 00:27:54,466
It's an often not so
they don't need any of that information.

00:27:54,466 --> 00:27:56,833
So doctors, we sell your stuff too.

00:27:56,833 --> 00:27:59,233
So yeah.

00:27:59,233 --> 00:28:01,366
I know
this isn't going to be a clickbait moment,

00:28:01,366 --> 00:28:05,166
but there's, there's a law called
or there's an act called HIPAA,

00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,133
which is the health information
privacy. Yes.

00:28:07,133 --> 00:28:08,133
So they can do that.

00:28:08,133 --> 00:28:11,233
So what happens is
there's a barrier that you have to meet.

00:28:11,533 --> 00:28:15,733
You have to be, some type of person,

00:28:15,733 --> 00:28:20,166
that or entity that crosses this,
this barrier of health information.

00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:22,200
Once you do,

00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,100
which means you meet
a lot of the federal regulations,

00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,200
you have to meet
all these federal regulations.

00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,633
Once you do,
you have the ability to transact

00:28:29,633 --> 00:28:32,666
with people
who who have reached that barrier.

00:28:32,666 --> 00:28:33,166
Right? Yeah.

00:28:33,166 --> 00:28:37,066
So so you can share
or they can share information.

00:28:37,066 --> 00:28:40,066
And some of that is like the part of me
that is conflicted on that.

00:28:41,933 --> 00:28:44,433
What does not conflict is I understand
even when things are used for good

00:28:44,433 --> 00:28:47,600
purposes, people find ways to use them
for nefarious purposes, I get it.

00:28:48,366 --> 00:28:51,866
The other part of that, though,
is of course, the sharing of information

00:28:51,866 --> 00:28:56,233
helps to prevent, diseases, helps
you learn about causes.

00:28:56,533 --> 00:28:58,666
So, I mean,

00:28:58,666 --> 00:29:00,633
figuring out that balance of what that is,

00:29:00,633 --> 00:29:04,166
because I do think that's important
and I don't have the answers is important.

00:29:04,166 --> 00:29:05,766
I mean, I

00:29:05,766 --> 00:29:08,900
so I do think it has to be like,
because the sharing of that data,

00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:11,066
the problem is people don't trust
that you'll do something

00:29:11,066 --> 00:29:14,033
like what shouldn't be shared is
if somebody has a,

00:29:14,033 --> 00:29:17,000
a condition that shouldn't be shared
with the insurance company

00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,366
to figure out ways, right.

00:29:18,366 --> 00:29:20,266
so they can maybe not,

00:29:20,266 --> 00:29:22,033
or they're not supposed to be able
to not give you an assurance.

00:29:22,033 --> 00:29:25,133
But we all know they can find ways
to make it difficult for things

00:29:25,133 --> 00:29:26,733
not to be covered. Still.

00:29:26,733 --> 00:29:29,066
yes, that's the worry I have.

00:29:29,066 --> 00:29:31,033
But I'm like,
I also know share the sharing

00:29:31,033 --> 00:29:34,900
of the information for things
like understanding health patterns.

00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:37,166
You introduce things like doppelgangers
that have people

00:29:37,166 --> 00:29:39,133
have similar profiles to you.

00:29:39,133 --> 00:29:40,900
Like what do you think is the balance
there

00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,300
times of figuring out how we share data?

00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:44,000
But it's not.

00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,733
It's probably regulation to find out
the answer to my question on that. But.

00:29:46,733 --> 00:29:49,333
Well, it's it's
actually a pretty simple solution.

00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:51,566
Okay. And and Facebook can do this
with advertising.

00:29:51,566 --> 00:29:53,133
Lots of organizations can do this.

00:29:53,133 --> 00:29:57,033
It's just that don't attach
personally identifiable information.

00:29:57,133 --> 00:29:59,666
Oh yeah. To it. Anonymize the data.

00:29:59,666 --> 00:29:59,900
Right.

00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:05,433
Like, hey, we you know, maybe there's 7000
cases in Cincinnati of this thing.

00:30:05,633 --> 00:30:08,600
We don't need to be able to trace it back
to who those people are.

00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,033
It's anonymized data.

00:30:10,033 --> 00:30:13,933
And, I know for the nerds out there,
they're going to say, well,

00:30:13,933 --> 00:30:17,533
I has the ability to anonymize data
right through that.

00:30:17,833 --> 00:30:21,366
There are techniques that brilliant people
even in the university.

00:30:22,033 --> 00:30:23,033
Yes. Yes.

00:30:23,033 --> 00:30:28,333
And, well, they add noise, so you can't
identify exactly who has what condition.

00:30:28,333 --> 00:30:31,266
And so there are brilliant people
coming up with these solutions.

00:30:31,266 --> 00:30:34,466
And to go to your question about,
how do we have,

00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:37,700
innovation, you know, and privacy.

00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:41,266
There's so much innovation happening
in this realm that protects us, too,

00:30:41,433 --> 00:30:43,566
and there's so much innovation
that's going on.

00:30:43,566 --> 00:30:47,133
I think, to answer my own question out
loud, I think we do have policy.

00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:50,800
And we started synthesizing investment
the same way we started doing,

00:30:50,966 --> 00:30:53,100
sustainability. Right, right.

00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:54,766
So now you're seeing all of this happen

00:30:54,766 --> 00:30:57,766
and all this happened all across Ohio,
but really all across the country,

00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,900
that there's just solar power farms
being built everywhere.

00:31:00,933 --> 00:31:02,400
Of course, there are people
that are trying to be against it

00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,233
because they want to keep the money train
the same way it's always been.

00:31:05,233 --> 00:31:07,966
I'm sure there will be people
that want to keep data the way.

00:31:07,966 --> 00:31:09,700
It's the way it's always been,
because that's how

00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:10,700
they've always made their money.

00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:14,100
Yeah, but to the point is, there's lots of
there's lots of jobs being created

00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:16,466
that way, lots of opportunities
being created that way.

00:31:16,466 --> 00:31:17,300
Yeah.

00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,666
If we start having a renaissance towards
okay, we can protect people's privacy

00:31:21,133 --> 00:31:21,900
and still innovate.

00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:24,433
And we want to incentivize
that type of activity.

00:31:24,433 --> 00:31:27,033
That to me
is one of the main purposes of policy.

00:31:27,033 --> 00:31:27,200
Yeah.

00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,933
Policy is actually
it is a guiding principle to say

00:31:30,933 --> 00:31:33,933
this is the type of society we want to be,
and we never get it perfect.

00:31:33,933 --> 00:31:35,266
We can't overdo it.

00:31:35,266 --> 00:31:39,700
But I like the concept of
how do we incentivize people to innovate.

00:31:39,733 --> 00:31:40,666
It protects privacy.

00:31:40,666 --> 00:31:43,800
We have the
you talked about what you do in terms of,

00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800
the solution to scrub out the noise
using AI.

00:31:46,933 --> 00:31:49,966
I mean, there's also blockchains
involved in the zero proof knowledge.

00:31:49,966 --> 00:31:53,433
You're able to, hold data like collect
data.

00:31:53,866 --> 00:31:56,300
That's, that's that's totally private.

00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:00,600
But then you can still know about the data
without knowing the data.

00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,866
Like, I know it sounds weird, but it's the
same type of thing you're talking about.

00:32:03,866 --> 00:32:07,033
Like it's a way of proving things
without knowing the details of a person,

00:32:07,533 --> 00:32:10,000
which I think though
we have the technology to do.

00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800
This is just what problem
are we trying to solve a society?

00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,733
And right now we've just said nothing
more important than just how fast we can

00:32:16,733 --> 00:32:20,666
just, make profits without any type of,
thought about,

00:32:20,966 --> 00:32:23,866
should we do all of these things
and how should we do them?

00:32:23,866 --> 00:32:24,500
Yeah, totally.

00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,600
And one thing,
you know, that this is an issue

00:32:27,966 --> 00:32:32,633
that is sort of bipartisan,
you know, because you will talk to,

00:32:32,633 --> 00:32:36,100
a ton of different people
from both sides of the aisle.

00:32:36,433 --> 00:32:39,366
And, you know, it's
something that needs regulation

00:32:39,366 --> 00:32:43,100
when people on the right are saying, hey,
I don't even believe in regulation.

00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,533
But this I know what I'm into deep.

00:32:46,533 --> 00:32:47,600
I know that there's.

00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,633
Something that they know
their kids are vulnerable.

00:32:49,633 --> 00:32:51,133
Yes. And another thing too,

00:32:51,133 --> 00:32:55,166
is that a lot of things that we're seeing
is that you could be an affluent family,

00:32:55,733 --> 00:32:59,933
but this could still happen to your kid
all in all, it takes is just one moment

00:32:59,933 --> 00:33:01,400
where, hey, mom. Hey, dad, I hate you.

00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,900
You don't understand me.
And then they put this online.

00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:08,400
I used to talk crap about my parents
under a tree house, right?

00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,166
Right.

00:33:09,166 --> 00:33:11,133
But the digital. Tree house exists.

00:33:11,133 --> 00:33:11,966
Yeah, where you're.

00:33:11,966 --> 00:33:15,233
Spewing that, and it just takes somebody
who can identify

00:33:15,233 --> 00:33:19,233
through sentiment analysis,
through using AI, and pinpointing

00:33:19,233 --> 00:33:22,700
exact locations of who may be having fits
with their parents at this moment.

00:33:23,033 --> 00:33:24,233
to understand.

00:33:25,333 --> 00:33:25,633
Okay.

00:33:25,633 --> 00:33:27,333
These are vulnerable children. Yeah.

00:33:27,333 --> 00:33:29,100
And it just takes one connection.

00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:32,100
You can buy their data for five bucks
to understand what their interests are.

00:33:32,466 --> 00:33:35,100
You can say, okay,
it just takes this one connection

00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:38,366
with this child who's having a bad moment
with their parents online.

00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,000
And that's all it takes to start
something like that.

00:33:42,166 --> 00:33:45,400
So people are understanding
like both sides of the aisle,

00:33:45,666 --> 00:33:49,933
all sides of the income economic ladder
are people that are affected from this.

00:33:50,333 --> 00:33:53,100
What happens if we don't get this right?

00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,333
Well, I think it's going to get sort of
like climate change.

00:33:57,333 --> 00:33:59,966
It's going to get a lot worse
before it gets better.

00:33:59,966 --> 00:34:03,666
and but I do see hope.

00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:09,366
so it's hard to predict,
how I, will make this worse.

00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,666
It's hard to predict, how bad actors,
because they're very smart.

00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:13,666
I'm asking you to predict.

00:34:13,666 --> 00:34:16,366
What do you think that looks like?
If we don't get it right.

00:34:16,366 --> 00:34:17,366
I think

00:34:18,966 --> 00:34:21,833
it's going
to be a lot more like Brave New World.

00:34:21,833 --> 00:34:22,966
Have you seen Brave New World? Yes.

00:34:22,966 --> 00:34:25,100
Or. I mean, read the book.

00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,900
It's essentially
where people kind of understand

00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:31,900
that this is happening,
but they don't care that much.

00:34:32,033 --> 00:34:36,300
And there will be large
corporations or large governments

00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:40,333
that are using that to understand
everything about you and nudging

00:34:40,333 --> 00:34:41,800
how you think and what you think.

00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,533
Over time, there will be bad actors

00:34:44,533 --> 00:34:48,400
who are exploiting this to get their way
with whatever they want.

00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,733
and this could be not even
just from a kids and,

00:34:51,833 --> 00:34:54,766
you know, vulnerable population
perspective, but from policy.

00:34:54,766 --> 00:34:55,166
Absolutely.

00:34:55,166 --> 00:34:58,433
so it looks very bleak,
to be honest with you.

00:34:58,433 --> 00:34:59,000
So, yeah,

00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,366
that it's a world where the algorithms
know us better than we know ourselves,

00:35:03,666 --> 00:35:05,266
and we don't even know
that that's happening.

00:35:05,266 --> 00:35:06,933
Like you said, and I.

00:35:06,933 --> 00:35:08,500
And to take it further,

00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:12,100
like we can get to the point where it
it sounds really freaky, right,

00:35:13,033 --> 00:35:14,200
that algorithms

00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,066
own most of people and corporations
and nations.

00:35:18,066 --> 00:35:21,066
Now, that sounds weird until you realize

00:35:21,733 --> 00:35:24,733
that most holders of land aren't.

00:35:25,133 --> 00:35:27,933
People are organizations.

00:35:27,933 --> 00:35:32,100
So imagine if we
if we're okay with algorithms,

00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,400
because this is very possible
that algorithms can eventually determine,

00:35:36,966 --> 00:35:40,633
who owns land, how policy is written,
all those things that we don't even know.

00:35:40,766 --> 00:35:42,833
Like,
I know it sounds like science fiction,

00:35:42,833 --> 00:35:46,333
but it's not science fiction
when you understand that if there's not,

00:35:46,333 --> 00:35:49,833
we don't have a guiding map
for what we want in society,

00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,466
how we're using artificial intelligence
to augment us, right?

00:35:54,733 --> 00:35:57,566
Augmented intelligence,
not an artificial intelligence.

00:35:57,566 --> 00:35:59,833
And AI, everybody is not new.

00:35:59,833 --> 00:36:02,700
This is this is this is algorithms
and machine learning.

00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:04,700
All that has been going on
for a long time now.

00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,600
We have another level of generative AI.

00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,866
And so like I'm with you, I think there's
a lot of hope and potential.

00:36:11,266 --> 00:36:14,266
But there's there's huge reasons
to be concerned.

00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:14,833
Yeah.

00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:18,433
It's it's hard to understate
how important it is,

00:36:18,433 --> 00:36:21,400
but it always sounds like tinfoil
hat in a way.

00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,166
So it's and it's impossible to predict

00:36:24,166 --> 00:36:27,133
because this is the thing I struggle with.

00:36:27,133 --> 00:36:30,800
We are generating so many billions of data
points,

00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,633
just like per second with AI,
and how that transforms

00:36:34,633 --> 00:36:38,000
without much regulation
could go any direction.

00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,266
And it's hard to predict
just how bad that could be.

00:36:41,266 --> 00:36:41,700
Yeah.

00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:46,100
and, you know,
if we don't look out for this

00:36:46,366 --> 00:36:49,600
at all,
we don't know how fast it can affect us.

00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,200
It'll go faster than we can imagine.

00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,900
Yeah, it's going to be exponential.

00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:55,333
It's already is. It already is. Right.
Like we're growing.

00:36:55,333 --> 00:36:55,800
That's horror.

00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,833
People understand? Yeah.

00:36:56,833 --> 00:36:57,266
As you know,

00:36:57,266 --> 00:37:01,733
exponential growth is not something
the human brain can actually, understand.

00:37:02,033 --> 00:37:04,400
So people say, well, you look like
what does that mean?

00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,633
It literally means it's growing so fast
you don't understand.

00:37:06,633 --> 00:37:07,300
Yeah. Right.

00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:10,833
From the human like we understand as nerds
what exponential growth looks like.

00:37:10,833 --> 00:37:11,700
We can see it on a chart.

00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,833
Yeah, but we really can't visualize
exponential growth.

00:37:15,133 --> 00:37:18,733
So it's moving so fast that like,
we need to this is why, you know,

00:37:19,333 --> 00:37:21,033
you're going to be a midwest con.

00:37:21,033 --> 00:37:25,166
And this is why like we're really focused
on what does policy innovation look like.

00:37:25,166 --> 00:37:28,100
Like because we think
I think you agree to that.

00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:31,066
We don't policy. Does
it mean that we don't have innovation.

00:37:31,066 --> 00:37:35,366
It means that we are building trust
so we can, build better innovation,

00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,133
have a flexible enough policy,
but a policy that sets clear rules

00:37:39,133 --> 00:37:42,400
so we understand
how we're operating with one another.

00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,833
Like I just think it's very important.
Agreed.

00:37:43,833 --> 00:37:46,833
Like we need even
we need to get to deep fakes

00:37:47,266 --> 00:37:51,233
and all those things that are really like,
like that are really concerning people.

00:37:51,233 --> 00:37:52,566
So like before we leave,

00:37:52,566 --> 00:37:54,566
I got a couple of lightning
round questions before I do this. Like

00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,333
if you had
to say something that will surprise people

00:37:58,333 --> 00:38:01,433
the most about the lack of privacy
or digital safety,

00:38:01,766 --> 00:38:04,466
can you think of a story or an example
that exemplifies

00:38:04,466 --> 00:38:07,466
that?

00:38:07,533 --> 00:38:09,133
What surprised you the most?

00:38:09,133 --> 00:38:15,233
Yes. on average
you have 3192 data points about you.

00:38:15,466 --> 00:38:18,233
And this is much better than people
that are close to your friends

00:38:18,233 --> 00:38:19,233
may know about you.

00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:24,133
So this is being sold
and, traded every single day

00:38:24,133 --> 00:38:27,400
and being aggregated for every time
you accept the term and condition,

00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,100
right, that invade your privacy.

00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:32,466
And I remember
the one thing that you told me about,

00:38:32,466 --> 00:38:35,466
when you set out a picture, metadata,
please tell people that the.

00:38:35,466 --> 00:38:36,033
White part.

00:38:36,033 --> 00:38:39,033
When you send out a picture
and the metadata behind it, what that

00:38:39,033 --> 00:38:41,866
what you can just by saying, oh, yeah,
one picture could. Do. Yeah. True.

00:38:41,866 --> 00:38:46,033
If you're uploading to Instagram
or Facebook or, various sites,

00:38:46,033 --> 00:38:49,166
you can right click on a computer
and inspect the element

00:38:49,433 --> 00:38:51,300
and it shows
what time of day this was taken.

00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,133
What camera was taken from,
GPS coordinates.

00:38:54,133 --> 00:38:57,300
All of that stuff is not obfuscated,
for a lot of websites.

00:38:57,300 --> 00:39:00,900
So you're able to track people
based on where they took a picture.

00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,833
Yeah. So very scary stuff.
So just think about this.

00:39:03,833 --> 00:39:04,066
All right?

00:39:04,066 --> 00:39:05,500
So I want to get to a couple of lightning

00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,500
round,
lightning round questions about you.

00:39:08,566 --> 00:39:08,966
All right.

00:39:08,966 --> 00:39:11,966
So you have a committee of three,
living or dead,

00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:16,466
to advise you on business life, digital
privacy, safety, whatever you want.

00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,033
Tell me who these three people are
and why.

00:39:19,033 --> 00:39:22,066
Marly Marlinspike
would be the first one who created

00:39:22,066 --> 00:39:25,400
the end to end encryption
that's used on WhatsApp and signal.

00:39:25,733 --> 00:39:31,333
So that would, be one my grandpa,
who was a judge here in Cincinnati.

00:39:31,866 --> 00:39:32,733
Fantastic.

00:39:32,733 --> 00:39:35,733
and really levelheaded person.

00:39:35,733 --> 00:39:36,600
What's his name?

00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:37,700
Marley. Marlinspike.

00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:40,733
No, no. You're my grandpa.
Norman Murdock.

00:39:40,733 --> 00:39:42,333
Okay. Yeah, he is county commissioner.

00:39:42,333 --> 00:39:44,066
Judge for a while. Wow. Yeah.

00:39:44,066 --> 00:39:46,900
And then, you know, the third one,

00:39:49,466 --> 00:39:52,466
I would probably.

00:39:53,066 --> 00:39:55,800
And so many good people,

00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,800
I would probably look toward,

00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,200
somebody named Steve Shahan,

00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,700
who is a very interesting musician.

00:40:05,966 --> 00:40:12,000
Yeah, but he went to pretty much every
single country and learned about cultures,

00:40:12,233 --> 00:40:15,033
and it would be just so good
to get that perspective.

00:40:15,033 --> 00:40:19,200
because he's still alive now
and has seen how cultures have evolved.

00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,533
And he's extremely intellectual
in that way.

00:40:21,533 --> 00:40:23,633
And I think you're going
to need that perspective.

00:40:23,633 --> 00:40:26,233
But I think those are the three
that I would go for.

00:40:26,233 --> 00:40:28,766
All right.

00:40:28,766 --> 00:40:32,900
what's an important truth you have that
very few people agree with you?

00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:35,300
I like a hot take.

00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,266
Yeah.

00:40:37,266 --> 00:40:39,600
I don't like the order.

00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,133
that is in every meeting.

00:40:42,133 --> 00:40:44,500
And I'm gonna write something about this.

00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:46,533
But you're guilty. You.

00:40:46,533 --> 00:40:47,800
That's what I. But.

00:40:48,766 --> 00:40:52,033
Yeah, but, I get emails about it
all the time.

00:40:52,033 --> 00:40:53,166
Every media guy show up to.

00:40:53,166 --> 00:40:55,100
And then there are people
that don't show up to the meeting

00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:57,200
that have it,
and then I'm not in charge of the meeting.

00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,633
And now I see, like,
all these things over.

00:40:59,633 --> 00:41:03,400
I've always order I not going to be a plug
for validation meetings.

00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,200
No, no, I, I was, talking to John
Salisbury about, yeah.

00:41:08,433 --> 00:41:12,033
Even just like when we have a meeting
or a presentation.

00:41:13,033 --> 00:41:16,266
making people turn off their phones, like,
if it's in person.

00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:16,966
Yeah, like.

00:41:16,966 --> 00:41:20,633
Demanding people turn off their phones
and just, like, creating attention.

00:41:20,633 --> 00:41:25,300
I also think order, on one hand, excuses
people from really paying attention

00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:29,166
because they think they can go back to
something where it's like, I want to like,

00:41:29,166 --> 00:41:31,200
if we're having a meeting,
I want full focus,

00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,266
I want good participation, and I don't.

00:41:33,266 --> 00:41:36,400
And, you know, this is a fleeting moment,
so you got to pay attention.

00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,600
So I like that a lot.

00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,533
No, I think that's really important.

00:41:39,533 --> 00:41:41,200
And I'm guilty of what you said.

00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:41,533
Right.

00:41:41,533 --> 00:41:44,566
And but,
but I respect it and I know it's true.

00:41:44,933 --> 00:41:45,166
Right.

00:41:45,166 --> 00:41:47,833
Because, in the last interview
I had right before you,

00:41:47,833 --> 00:41:50,833
we were talking about the need
to make sure people don't think that

00:41:50,966 --> 00:41:53,866
artificial intelligence
is not going to replace intelligence.

00:41:53,866 --> 00:41:55,633
You need to still be intelligent.

00:41:55,633 --> 00:41:58,100
You need to understand how to do this
and have focus.

00:41:58,100 --> 00:41:58,333
Right?

00:41:58,333 --> 00:42:01,333
Because those who who are able to,

00:42:01,466 --> 00:42:05,033
communicate their authentic intelligence,
they will be the winners.

00:42:05,033 --> 00:42:07,933
And in the age of artificial Intel.
Totally. Right. Yeah.

00:42:07,933 --> 00:42:11,666
That that takes though
focus, that takes presence.

00:42:11,666 --> 00:42:11,966
Yeah.

00:42:11,966 --> 00:42:15,133
That takes still grinding it out
and learning those hard parts.

00:42:16,033 --> 00:42:19,800
and no amount of artificial intelligence
will replace the need for authenticity.

00:42:19,833 --> 00:42:20,533
Totally.

00:42:20,533 --> 00:42:22,900
Like so I completely agree
with you on that.

00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:23,233
All right.

00:42:23,233 --> 00:42:26,566
So, a time

00:42:26,566 --> 00:42:29,566
you failed in your life
and how that made you better.

00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,633
I fail literally every single day.

00:42:31,633 --> 00:42:33,266
Every single day.
Welcome to the club. Yeah.

00:42:35,633 --> 00:42:36,900
it's always made me better.

00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:42,900
I think, there was one point where, back
when I was first starting the slate

00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:46,466
up, you know, related stuff,
where I wanted to quit.

00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,166
And I talked to my team about it,
and they gave me a a week, and, then

00:42:52,166 --> 00:42:55,900
I saw how much work my team was doing,
and I wasn't there to lead them.

00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:59,666
And I felt really bad about,
you know, wavering.

00:42:59,666 --> 00:43:00,033
Yeah.

00:43:00,033 --> 00:43:03,433
At that moment,
and I realized that leaders need

00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,633
extreme control in their emotions,

00:43:06,633 --> 00:43:10,300
and they need to step up
and not be that person that waver.

00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:11,133
So it was either

00:43:11,133 --> 00:43:14,566
that I should not be a leader
or I need to step up in that context.

00:43:14,566 --> 00:43:17,666
And that was a good path
for me to like, really understand that.

00:43:17,733 --> 00:43:18,500
That's a great point.

00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:21,400
I'll say is that from one leader
to another, because I've felt it too.

00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,100
You also need a safe,

00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:26,833
a safe place to be vulnerable

00:43:26,833 --> 00:43:30,000
and tell it
because you're going to have doubts.

00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,833
You're going to have, difficult times.

00:43:32,833 --> 00:43:35,100
Now, that mentor may not be your team.

00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:38,200
Maybe, maybe, at some point,
maybe it can be.

00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,633
But having people
that have been through it,

00:43:40,633 --> 00:43:43,566
because it's always hard
like it always is always hard.

00:43:43,566 --> 00:43:48,333
Like even even when you get to where you
where you think you want to be,

00:43:48,566 --> 00:43:50,333
the new problems come about.

00:43:50,333 --> 00:43:50,933
Yeah. Right.

00:43:50,933 --> 00:43:52,933
And there's it's very hard
for people to relate.

00:43:52,933 --> 00:43:55,033
It is what you're doing
like your family can't.

00:43:55,033 --> 00:43:55,400
They can't.

00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:56,866
That's why
you need to talk to other leaders as well.

00:43:56,866 --> 00:43:59,133
So I tell you totally,
you need to get support

00:43:59,133 --> 00:44:02,566
and advice from people important
and have them pour into you.

00:44:02,966 --> 00:44:03,833
You'll help them too,

00:44:03,833 --> 00:44:06,033
because you're going to be
you need to be vulnerable

00:44:06,033 --> 00:44:08,433
because if you feel like
you always have to take it on,

00:44:08,433 --> 00:44:11,033
yeah, you might break too,
which also hurt your team.

00:44:11,033 --> 00:44:11,433
True.

00:44:11,433 --> 00:44:14,100
But I agree with you
in terms of regulating your emotion.

00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:16,033
You know, I I've had to learn that too.

00:44:16,033 --> 00:44:16,900
And I'm still learning

00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:20,033
that it's a constant process
of when regulating their emotions.

00:44:20,033 --> 00:44:23,533
But you have to be in a place
where you can also be vulnerable.

00:44:23,833 --> 00:44:26,766
and sometimes you have to show your team
vulnerability, too.

00:44:26,766 --> 00:44:30,533
I think all of this stuff is balance,
and I think your team showed you

00:44:30,766 --> 00:44:33,866
that they had your back,
and that sounds like that inspired you.

00:44:33,866 --> 00:44:35,366
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

00:44:35,366 --> 00:44:36,100
All right.

00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:38,600
Final, final final lightning
round question.

00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:39,733
What's your slogan?

00:44:39,733 --> 00:44:43,400
Your your it'll be on your
that'll be on your grave.

00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:43,833
What is it?

00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,466
probably some like we're all going to die.

00:44:49,466 --> 00:44:52,366
Enjoy it.

00:44:52,366 --> 00:44:53,066
That's true.

00:44:53,066 --> 00:44:55,166
You know, don't take it too seriously.

00:44:55,166 --> 00:44:57,733
All right, brother, good to see you. Good
to see you, too. Pleasure having you on.