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How does one go from CEO to

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activist from fighting in the suites

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to fighting in the streets?

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Learn from Jason Flom

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as we learn about his mission

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to fight for justice

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Welcome to Disruption Now!

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I'm your host and moderator,

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Rob Richardson,

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where we host on this show

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guests and narratives that disrupt common

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narratives and constructs.

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And I can tell you this,

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Jason Flom definitely does that.

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He used to be CEO of Atlantic,

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and now he's an activist

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fighting to make sure we have a more

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just criminal justice system.

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He is the producer

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and founder of Wrongful Conviction

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Podcast, False Confession

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Podcast, as well as

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Righteous Conviction podcast.

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He's just a podcast king

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And he went from that.

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He what he used to be doing

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everything on the corporate level.

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Now he used it.

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He uses his voice to fight for people,

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specifically fighting for

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wrongful wrongful convictions

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and things that are happening

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all day, every day to many Americans.

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But a lot of us don't see it.

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And we're going to make sure

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that you see it and learn about it today.

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So we're going to listen to Jason

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and hear what he has to say.

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And it's just so interesting to me

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that we see these repeated injustices

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go over and over and over again

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within our society, within America.

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But yet it's still underappreciated

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how unjust, how unfair,

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how cruel our system is.

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But as you're

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going to see on the other side,

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we need to do more about it.

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And I hope you

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you come out

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more informed and more engaged than ever.

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How are you doing man?

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I'm doing well.

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8 hours of

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sleep, six espressos, one nice long

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walk with the dog.

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And now I'm here with you.

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So, you know, I'm living the dream.

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Good to see you, brother, man.

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And always great connecting

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with another warrior and justice.

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I think you're more in the cause than me.

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I do all I can

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but you've dedicated

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all of your time to this.

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I just want

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to let you know that we appreciate it.

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And I really want to dive into

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how you got into this,

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because you went from

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the corporate suites

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to fighting in the streets,

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as I said earlier.

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So, like, how

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how does one make this transition?

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Because you were CEO of Atlantic Records,

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I believe that's. That's correct.

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And now you have a podcast

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that's all about making sure

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you are exposing the recurring injustices

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that happen

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within our criminal justice

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system, so-called justice system.

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And that's all you do now.

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So talk to me about that

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transition from that life to this life,

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because that's quite the transition.

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Yeah.

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Listen, I still have one foot squarely

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in the music business.

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I mean, people identify me more

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now with the sort of good work that I do

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than with the good work

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that I've done on the music side.

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I guess you could say

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good with a capital G

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as opposed to a lowercase G. Right.

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But yeah, it's funny

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because, you know, whenever I do

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public speaking, which I do a lot

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and I really enjoy it.

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I speak at corporations,

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law schools, Ivy League

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schools and open for Tony Robbins.

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I've spoken in a MAXIMUM-SECURITY prison

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in Uganda. I mean, everything in between.

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But I always start off by

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saying this is the story

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of my crazy journey

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from wannabe Jimi

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Hendrix to chairman and CEO

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with three of the biggest record

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companies in the world.

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But more importantly,

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from being a drug addicted

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college dropout to a pioneer

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in criminal justice reform,

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because it is more important

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at the end of the day, you know,

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you're in the arts and

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you're a creator, and you know,

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you do incredible work, and that's great.

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I'm on the other side, right?

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I'm on the side of once

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I realize that

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I was never going to make it

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as the world's best guitar player,

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I was like, all right, screw it.

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because listen.

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Rob, my dad had told me

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I never can do an interview

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without mentioning my dad

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because he was really my mentor.

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And he told my brother and I

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he said, listen,

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do whatever you want to do.

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Try to be the best at it,

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but just make the world a better place

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because there's no other meaning

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to success. Right?

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That's the only definition

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that that matters.

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So I was like,

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Okay, Pops,

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let's see what we can do about that,

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you know what I mean?

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And then like I said, when I realized

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I wasn't going

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to be the best guitar player, I decided

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maybe I could make it

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in the music industry and help

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other people become superstars.

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And that's how it worked out,

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which gives me the ability to then

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go and make that transition

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that you talked about.

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And I fell in love with this cause or

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I fell in line with this cause,

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or I became obsessed with it.

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But before you get there,

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I want you to get that.

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I just want to take one small point

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about what you said,

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that when you focused

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on your early in your career,

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you were focused on music

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and thought you were going to be

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this Jimi Hendrix player.

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And I just have a lot of

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similar similarities

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to your path like

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like I wanted to be next

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Michael Jordan at that time, right?

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Like, just work hard

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and just thought

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You know, I was like,

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I'm going to do this

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and I'm going to use

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that as my platform to change the world.

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A couple of couple problems with that,

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breaking my knee.

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I can't

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I have nowhere near the athletic ability

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of Michael Jordan or anybody else.

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So I actually pivoted too it's amazing how

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how life can take us

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towards the right path

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if we're not focused on it

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being exactly what we think it has to be.

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So I just thought

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that was an interesting point.

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Life is never linear, but.

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Okay, so let's talk about this transition

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you made to your.

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Now, you you've

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you realize you weren't going to be

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Jimi Hendrix,

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but you did have success

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with the music business

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several times over

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being CEO at three different companies.

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And now you've made this transition.

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Talk more about this transition

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that you have now.

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Yeah, I like that.

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Life is never linear.

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It's just like my dad used to say, trees

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don't go straight to the sky. Right?

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They kind of,

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you know, except for redwoods.

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But anyway.

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Yeah, so yeah,

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you got to kind of keep your mind

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open to those possibilities. I feel like.

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And because

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because life does take crazy twists

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and turns for all of us. But anyway,

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it all started

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in 1993

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when I

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read an article in the newspaper

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about a kid

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that was serving 15 years

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to life for a first offense

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for a nonviolent first offense.

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Cocaine possession charge

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in a Maximum-security prison

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in New York State

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and I know people are saying, Yeah,

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that doesn't make any sense

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what you're talking about,

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but the fact is it was a nonviolent

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first offense cocaine possession charge

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for which he was serving

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15 years to life under the Rockefeller

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drug laws in New York State. Yep.

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And it was in the paper

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because his mother had been trying

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to get clemency for him from Governor

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Mario Cuomo and had gotten to have

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gotten letters from some prominent people

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and had been turned down.

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So that's why

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it made it into the newspaper.

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Otherwise he would have been

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just another anonymous dude

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lost in the system.

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And so I read this and I was like,

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what the

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I don't know if I can curse on here, but,

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you know, you.

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You can cuss as much as you want. Go ahead.

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Okay. So what the fuck?

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I was like,

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I didn't know anything

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about these mandatory sentencing laws.

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I did know that.

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I had been a drug addict as a kid.

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You know,

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I had gone to rehab when I was 26,

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and I was very well aware

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that I had never had,

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you know, I had had

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some scary interactions,

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but never anything serious with the

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with the justice system.

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And that was because of the color

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of my skin

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and the zip code

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I lived in and I knew it.

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So I just thought,

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you know, I'm not a religious guy.

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But there

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but for the grace of

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some higher power goes go I.

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Right, right.

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And so I thought I got to do something.

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I had no idea what to do,

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but I figured I got to do something

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so I don't have any legal training.

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I'm not even a college graduate.

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I was just a mid-level music

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executive at the time.

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And so just before you were

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you were still in the music business

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at this time and then you hit the spark.

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Yeah.

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And this is where the worlds collide.

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Right?

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So I knew one

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criminal defense attorney at the time.

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Now I know hundreds of them

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but I knew one because

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he represented two of the artists.

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I had discovered

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Stone Temple pilots and Skid Row,

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and they were getting arrested

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like practically weekly you know.

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So I had him on speed dial

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his name was Bob Galena.

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Rest in peace.

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So I called Bob and I asked Bob

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if he could help with this case.

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By now,

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I had spoken to the mother of

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the incarcerated guy.

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Shirley is her name, and

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she had basically given up hope

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after getting turned down.

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He had been in for over

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eight years already.

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He happened to be the same age

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as I was at the time.

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So I really saw myself in him, you know,

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and because I had been in the wrong place

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at the wrong time so many times,

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and it could have happened to me.

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So I'm

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sure a lot of people are nodding

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their heads at home right now

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going it could have been me, too.

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So because, you know,

00:08:21:01 - 00:08:22:08
you don't have to be

00:08:22:08 - 00:08:23:13
deep in the drug trade.

00:08:23:13 - 00:08:24:18
You can just be,

00:08:24:18 - 00:08:24:22
you know,

00:08:24:22 - 00:08:27:04
like I used to get my Coke

00:08:27:04 - 00:08:29:07
when I was addicted to that stuff.

00:08:29:07 - 00:08:30:00
You know,

00:08:30:00 - 00:08:31:10
I used to get in the car

00:08:31:10 - 00:08:32:15
with the guy who was selling it.

00:08:32:15 - 00:08:34:12
He used to drive around and all this.

00:08:34:12 - 00:08:36:15
And had we been pulled over

00:08:36:15 - 00:08:38:11
and all that stuff was in the car,

00:08:38:11 - 00:08:40:07
you know, and you both go it's not mine.

00:08:40:07 - 00:08:41:09
It belongs to both of you.

00:08:41:09 - 00:08:42:03
That's the end of it.

00:08:42:03 - 00:08:42:10
You know,

00:08:42:10 - 00:08:44:07
it doesn't matter if it's his car

00:08:44:07 - 00:08:46:04
or you're a passenger or you just got in

00:08:46:04 - 00:08:46:14
That's stuff.

00:08:46:14 - 00:08:47:17
Something people do not understand.

00:08:47:17 - 00:08:49:06
I don't think I have full appreciation

00:08:49:06 - 00:08:50:16
for how

00:08:50:16 - 00:08:51:18
just crazy

00:08:51:18 - 00:08:53:07
our our drug laws are to

00:08:53:07 - 00:08:54:06
to your point, right.

00:08:54:06 - 00:08:54:18
That I think

00:08:54:18 - 00:08:56:04
is really just important to stop at

00:08:56:04 - 00:08:56:17
Right?

00:08:56:21 - 00:08:59:06
If you're in the car, you cannot

00:08:59:06 - 00:09:00:14
you cannot you

00:09:00:14 - 00:09:02:00
you don't have to be doing the drugs

00:09:02:00 - 00:09:02:15
or somebody else

00:09:02:15 - 00:09:04:14
that has the drugs in your car.

00:09:04:14 - 00:09:05:11
You're both liable.

00:09:05:11 - 00:09:07:02
Like it just they just assume that you

00:09:07:02 - 00:09:08:22
you both are guilty.

00:09:08:22 - 00:09:09:18
And you both go to jail

00:09:09:18 - 00:09:12:02
like it doesn't even matter what you did.

00:09:12:12 - 00:09:13:15
It especially true if you're black.

00:09:13:15 - 00:09:14:11
Well, go ahead.

00:09:14:11 - 00:09:15:00
Well, yeah,

00:09:15:08 - 00:09:16:21
it could be five of you

00:09:16:21 - 00:09:19:08
and all the drugs belong to all of you.

00:09:19:08 - 00:09:20:21
It's like, unless somebody goes, oh, no,

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:21:10
those are mine,

00:09:21:10 - 00:09:23:11
which nobody ever does, right? So.

00:09:23:11 - 00:09:24:12
So anyway,

00:09:25:24 - 00:09:26:16
so Bob

00:09:26:16 - 00:09:28:07
agreed to take the case pro bono,

00:09:28:07 - 00:09:29:21
even though he said it was hopeless.

00:09:29:21 - 00:09:32:10
And somehow or other, he calls me up.

00:09:32:10 - 00:09:33:11
About a month later,

00:09:33:11 - 00:09:34:22
he found some loophole.

00:09:34:22 - 00:09:35:22
He said it won't work,

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:37:17
but I'm going to try

00:09:38:15 - 00:09:39:21
and then another five,

00:09:39:21 - 00:09:41:07
six months after that,

00:09:41:07 - 00:09:43:02
we end up in a courtroom in Malone,

00:09:43:02 - 00:09:43:15
New York.

00:09:43:15 - 00:09:44:17
I mean, this is so long ago

00:09:44:17 - 00:09:46:07
that I still had a mullet.

00:09:46:07 - 00:09:48:00
I mean, I'm not even kidding about this.

00:09:48:00 - 00:09:50:00
And I wish I was.

00:09:50:00 - 00:09:52:01
And I got the pictures to prove it.

00:09:52:09 - 00:09:53:20
And so they bring this kid

00:09:53:20 - 00:09:55:18
into the courtroom in shackles, right?

00:09:55:18 - 00:09:57:16
Like he's Charles Manson or something.

00:09:57:16 - 00:09:59:09
Right. I mean, he's got his legs chained.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:00:10
You know the drill.

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:01:06
I do.

00:10:01:06 - 00:10:01:23
And I'm like, wait,

00:10:01:23 - 00:10:03:17
isn't this a nonviolent first offender?

00:10:03:17 - 00:10:04:06
Doesn't this seem

00:10:04:06 - 00:10:05:21
like a little bit of overkill?

00:10:05:21 - 00:10:07:18
You know, but anyway,

00:10:07:18 - 00:10:09:16
the arguments go back and forth.

00:10:09:16 - 00:10:11:16
I have no idea what's going on

00:10:11:16 - 00:10:14:13
because I'm new at this new as could be.

00:10:15:08 - 00:10:16:14
And I'm sitting there

00:10:16:14 - 00:10:18:10
holding his mother's hand. Shirley,

00:10:19:12 - 00:10:21:03
her husband Stan

00:10:21:03 - 00:10:23:05
there on the other side,

00:10:23:05 - 00:10:24:18
probably squeezing her hand so tight

00:10:24:18 - 00:10:25:13
I can't imagine.

00:10:25:13 - 00:10:28:08
And the judge bangs the gavel down

00:10:28:08 - 00:10:29:24
and sends the kid home.

00:10:29:24 - 00:10:31:16
And I was like, what?

00:10:31:16 - 00:10:32:01
Like,

00:10:32:06 - 00:10:32:19
like when he

00:10:32:19 - 00:10:34:11
when the judge made his ruling, Bob comes

00:10:34:11 - 00:10:36:00
kind of scurrying over. Right.

00:10:36:00 - 00:10:38:02
And I'm like, well, what just happened?

00:10:38:02 - 00:10:40:11
And he goes, we won I was like, what?

00:10:40:18 - 00:10:41:08
He was like,

00:10:41:08 - 00:10:43:06
we won! I was like get the fuck out of here.

00:10:43:06 - 00:10:44:06
That's the craziest thing

00:10:44:06 - 00:10:44:22
I've ever heard.

00:10:44:22 - 00:10:46:11
So I was like, oh, my God,

00:10:46:11 - 00:10:47:19
I have a super power you know?

00:10:47:19 - 00:10:49:05
Like, I, I didn't,

00:10:49:05 - 00:10:49:16
I couldn't,

00:10:49:16 - 00:10:51:08
I didn't have a super power to play guitar.

00:10:51:08 - 00:10:52:08
We know that, right?

00:10:52:08 - 00:10:53:22
Definitely can't dunk a basketball

00:10:53:22 - 00:10:55:24
with my three inch Jewish vertical leap.

00:10:55:24 - 00:10:57:18
So I was like, okay,

00:10:57:18 - 00:10:59:13
maybe I'm exaggerating that, too. But

00:11:00:12 - 00:11:02:07
so I was like, I want to do more of that.

00:11:02:07 - 00:11:03:03
That was the feeling

00:11:03:03 - 00:11:04:13
that I wanted to have again

00:11:04:13 - 00:11:06:00
and again and again.

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:06:09
Yeah.

00:11:06:09 - 00:11:08:20
I mean, when we talk about these laws,

00:11:08:20 - 00:11:11:10
it's crazy how fast we got here

00:11:11:10 - 00:11:13:14
and just how absurd the laws are.

00:11:13:14 - 00:11:15:06
And so you mentioned

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:17:16
you implied about cocaine powder cocaine

00:11:17:16 - 00:11:19:04
versus crack cocaine,

00:11:19:04 - 00:11:20:15
and the fact that you'd have to get,

00:11:20:15 - 00:11:20:21
you know,

00:11:20:21 - 00:11:22:03
when these laws were first created,

00:11:22:03 - 00:11:23:11
what did you have to have?

00:11:23:11 - 00:11:24:05
100 times

00:11:24:05 - 00:11:25:11
the amount of powder cocaine

00:11:25:11 - 00:11:26:01
than it was crack

00:11:26:01 - 00:11:27:03
cocaine had very little bit

00:11:27:03 - 00:11:27:22
of crack cocaine.

00:11:27:22 - 00:11:28:11
And we know crack

00:11:28:11 - 00:11:30:03
cocaine was for

00:11:30:04 - 00:11:31:23
poor people and black people.

00:11:31:23 - 00:11:32:08
And powder

00:11:32:08 - 00:11:33:17
cocaine were more

00:11:33:17 - 00:11:34:11
usually white people

00:11:34:11 - 00:11:36:07
in other establishment like I would be

00:11:36:07 - 00:11:38:01
I remember this in law school

00:11:38:01 - 00:11:38:22
and, you know,

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:39:21
I didn't use drugs

00:11:39:21 - 00:11:41:01
I'm not judging anybody but I didn't.

00:11:41:01 - 00:11:41:14
But I remember

00:11:41:14 - 00:11:44:05
literally going into parties

00:11:44:05 - 00:11:44:22
and people would

00:11:44:22 - 00:11:47:21
literally be just be inhaling cocaine.

00:11:48:03 - 00:11:48:15
And it was

00:11:48:15 - 00:11:49:05
it was something

00:11:49:05 - 00:11:50:16
that people knew was happening,

00:11:50:16 - 00:11:52:09
the clubs knew were happening.

00:11:52:09 - 00:11:54:08
Officers would be there and it'd be no big deal.

00:11:54:08 - 00:11:56:07
Right. And they would just let it go.

00:11:56:07 - 00:11:58:11
But, you know, everywhere you go

00:11:59:03 - 00:12:00:15
in certain neighborhoods, your

00:12:00:15 - 00:12:02:15
your neighborhood is occupied

00:12:02:15 - 00:12:04:18
and you are assumed to be guilty.

00:12:05:13 - 00:12:06:07
No, matter what.

00:12:06:07 - 00:12:08:22
And you get searched every single second.

00:12:08:22 - 00:12:09:20
You have very little rights.

00:12:09:20 - 00:12:11:22
And I think people are really surprised

00:12:11:22 - 00:12:12:21
that this happens.

00:12:12:21 - 00:12:14:08
And and what I

00:12:14:08 - 00:12:14:16
what I

00:12:14:16 - 00:12:15:13
what I do know

00:12:15:13 - 00:12:15:21
is that

00:12:15:21 - 00:12:19:05
I think during the George Floyd murder,

00:12:19:05 - 00:12:20:21
when that happened in the protests

00:12:20:21 - 00:12:22:24
and people saw the amount of interactions

00:12:23:11 - 00:12:25:03
and the amount of power

00:12:25:03 - 00:12:26:17
that our criminal justice system

00:12:26:17 - 00:12:28:05
has is to suppress people's rights.

00:12:28:05 - 00:12:29:17
It surprised some people like that.

00:12:29:17 - 00:12:32:01
And so I hope people were awakened by

00:12:32:01 - 00:12:32:19
that fact. But

00:12:33:18 - 00:12:35:00
I would like to ask you

00:12:35:00 - 00:12:37:01
what fact surprised you,

00:12:37:01 - 00:12:39:00
what shocking fact

00:12:39:00 - 00:12:39:24
or reality

00:12:39:24 - 00:12:40:13
surprised you

00:12:40:13 - 00:12:40:23
the most

00:12:40:23 - 00:12:42:12
about our criminal justice system

00:12:42:12 - 00:12:43:17
that just really hit it for you?

00:12:43:17 - 00:12:44:06
Like, wow,

00:12:44:06 - 00:12:44:20
I can't believe

00:12:44:20 - 00:12:46:06
this is actually happening in America.

00:12:46:06 - 00:12:46:24
Like what?

00:12:46:24 - 00:12:47:22
What stood out for you?

00:12:47:22 - 00:12:49:14
What stands out for you?

00:12:49:15 - 00:12:51:17
I'll throw a couple statistics your way

00:12:52:06 - 00:12:53:17
that you may be familiar with,

00:12:53:17 - 00:12:55:21
but I bet a lot of people that listening

00:12:56:00 - 00:12:57:04
probably not.

00:12:57:04 - 00:12:58:07
No matter how woke you are,

00:12:58:07 - 00:13:00:07
these statistics will probably shock you.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:03:16
One that probably is as mind blowing

00:13:03:16 - 00:13:04:10
as any of them.

00:13:04:10 - 00:13:06:18
Is that the United States incarcerates

00:13:06:18 - 00:13:08:10
black people at six times

00:13:08:10 - 00:13:09:00
the rate

00:13:09:00 - 00:13:10:22
per capita of South Africa

00:13:10:22 - 00:13:12:16
during apartheid.

00:13:12:16 - 00:13:14:24
So let's just chew on that for a second.

00:13:15:01 - 00:13:16:13
Chew on that for one minute.

00:13:16:13 - 00:13:17:16
Say that one more time,

00:13:17:16 - 00:13:19:03
because I think it was really important.

00:13:20:05 - 00:13:20:11
Yeah.

00:13:20:11 - 00:13:22:19
So the United States incarcerates

00:13:23:08 - 00:13:26:00
black people at six times

00:13:26:00 - 00:13:27:19
the rate of South Africans

00:13:27:19 - 00:13:29:03
during apartheid,

00:13:29:03 - 00:13:30:15
of course, that's per capita.

00:13:30:15 - 00:13:32:06
Now, you know,

00:13:32:06 - 00:13:34:07
as crazy as that sounds, when you put

00:13:34:19 - 00:13:35:00
you know,

00:13:35:00 - 00:13:37:09
when you drill down inside the numbers

00:13:37:09 - 00:13:39:19
and you look at the fact that we have

00:13:39:19 - 00:13:41:09
4.4% of the world's

00:13:41:09 - 00:13:43:21
population, but 25% of the world's

00:13:44:00 - 00:13:45:14
prison population. Right.

00:13:45:14 - 00:13:47:08
And I'm going to say these slow

00:13:47:08 - 00:13:48:12
because it's a lot.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:50:15
But we also have

00:13:50:15 - 00:13:52:09
what's inside of those numbers

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:54:13
is we have 33% of the world's

00:13:54:13 - 00:13:56:22
female prison population.

00:13:56:22 - 00:13:57:18
So imagine that

00:13:57:18 - 00:14:00:13
if you're a woman in prison in the world,

00:14:00:13 - 00:14:01:23
there's a one in three chance

00:14:01:23 - 00:14:04:02
you're locked up in a cage in America.

00:14:04:02 - 00:14:05:02
And a lot of women,

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:06:13
a big percentage of women

00:14:06:13 - 00:14:07:20
in America, in prison

00:14:07:20 - 00:14:08:22
are in prison for crimes

00:14:08:22 - 00:14:10:14
that never even happened.

00:14:10:14 - 00:14:13:23
And that's a scary enough statistic.

00:14:13:23 - 00:14:14:20
But, you know,

00:14:14:20 - 00:14:18:11
then you look at like any way you look at

00:14:18:11 - 00:14:19:20
it, right? Like we have

00:14:20:24 - 00:14:23:03
more people in prison for drugs

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:25:04
than everyone in prison

00:14:25:04 - 00:14:27:05
in Western Europe for everything.

00:14:27:05 - 00:14:28:09
And they have a lot

00:14:28:09 - 00:14:29:15
more people than we do.

00:14:29:15 - 00:14:32:01
We have more people in prison

00:14:32:16 - 00:14:35:03
than Russia and China combined.

00:14:36:06 - 00:14:38:20
We have more people in jail

00:14:39:07 - 00:14:39:22
who haven't

00:14:39:22 - 00:14:41:10
been convicted of anything

00:14:41:10 - 00:14:44:03
but are too poor to post bail.

00:14:44:03 - 00:14:46:15
Then everyone locked up in a cage

00:14:46:15 - 00:14:48:15
in India.

00:14:49:01 - 00:14:51:02
India has got about four times

00:14:51:02 - 00:14:52:09
as many people as we do.

00:14:52:09 - 00:14:53:16
It's between three and four times

00:14:53:16 - 00:14:54:21
as many people as we do.

00:14:54:21 - 00:14:56:10
And we've got more people

00:14:56:10 - 00:14:57:24
I'm going to say it again

00:14:57:24 - 00:14:58:15
more people

00:14:58:15 - 00:14:59:04
that haven't

00:14:59:04 - 00:15:00:09
been convicted of a crime

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:01:02
that are right now

00:15:01:02 - 00:15:02:08
while we're sitting here

00:15:02:08 - 00:15:03:15
having this conversation,

00:15:03:15 - 00:15:07:08
they are stuck in a disgusting, violent,

00:15:07:20 - 00:15:09:07
dirty,

00:15:09:18 - 00:15:12:09
nightmarish hellhole, separated

00:15:12:09 - 00:15:13:06
from their children,

00:15:13:06 - 00:15:14:01
from their families,

00:15:14:01 - 00:15:15:01
from their church,

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:17:06
from their school, from their job,

00:15:17:06 - 00:15:18:23
from sunlight, from exercise,

00:15:18:23 - 00:15:20:10
from their dog or cat.

00:15:20:10 - 00:15:23:18
If they have one from every every basic

00:15:23:18 - 00:15:26:22
human need is unmet in these jails,

00:15:26:22 - 00:15:29:03
which in most cases are more violent

00:15:29:10 - 00:15:31:15
and more oppressive, more more,

00:15:31:18 - 00:15:32:01
you know,

00:15:32:01 - 00:15:33:05
more punitive

00:15:33:05 - 00:15:35:15
than maximum security prisons,

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:37:08
because there's no recreation,

00:15:37:08 - 00:15:38:14
there's no law library,

00:15:38:14 - 00:15:39:22
there's no school, there's

00:15:39:22 - 00:15:40:18
no anything

00:15:40:18 - 00:15:43:08
except for anger and frustration

00:15:43:08 - 00:15:45:02
and a powder keg of people

00:15:45:02 - 00:15:45:24
mixed up together.

00:15:45:24 - 00:15:47:01
People who are violent,

00:15:47:01 - 00:15:47:22
people who are nonviolent,

00:15:47:22 - 00:15:48:15
people are innocent,

00:15:48:15 - 00:15:49:12
people who are guilty,

00:15:49:12 - 00:15:50:14
people who are gang members.

00:15:50:14 - 00:15:51:10
People who are not.

00:15:51:10 - 00:15:51:24
And I

00:15:51:24 - 00:15:52:14
and I use

00:15:52:14 - 00:15:54:22
gang members very cautiously

00:15:54:22 - 00:15:56:16
because we tend to categorize people

00:15:56:16 - 00:15:57:13
as gang members

00:15:57:13 - 00:16:00:03
that aren't so many times in America.

00:16:00:10 - 00:16:01:22
And we can't have a

00:16:01:22 - 00:16:02:13
I can't

00:16:02:13 - 00:16:04:23
I can't let myself throw that around

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:05:15
loosely.

00:16:05:15 - 00:16:07:06
So, yeah, but,

00:16:07:06 - 00:16:07:11
you know,

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:08:10
I want to get back to something

00:16:08:10 - 00:16:09:06
else, Rob

00:16:09:06 - 00:16:10:08
because I don't want to

00:16:10:08 - 00:16:10:18
you know,

00:16:10:18 - 00:16:12:12
I don't want to bog everybody down

00:16:12:12 - 00:16:13:14
with statistics. But,

00:16:15:00 - 00:16:16:07
you know, that feeling that I

00:16:16:07 - 00:16:20:01
had all those years ago in 1993

00:16:20:19 - 00:16:24:06
when Steven Lennon was sent home,

00:16:24:06 - 00:16:26:02
you know, it's

00:16:27:07 - 00:16:28:08
it's a feeling that I wish

00:16:28:08 - 00:16:29:05
I never had to have

00:16:29:05 - 00:16:30:00
because I wish there weren't

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:30:22
all these people in prison

00:16:30:22 - 00:16:32:19
and we didn't have to go get them out.

00:16:32:19 - 00:16:34:09
And I hate that I can

00:16:34:09 - 00:16:36:21
only help one or two or ten or 50

00:16:36:22 - 00:16:39:03
at a time or whatever it is

00:16:39:03 - 00:16:40:22
because the problem is so vast.

00:16:40:22 - 00:16:41:16
Yeah.

00:16:41:20 - 00:16:44:08
I literally wish I could take the entire

00:16:44:08 - 00:16:45:00
prison system

00:16:45:00 - 00:16:46:18
in this country and turn it upside

00:16:46:18 - 00:16:49:06
down, shake it and everybody

00:16:50:20 - 00:16:53:01
go home, go back to your life

00:16:54:01 - 00:16:55:08
or try to rebuild,

00:16:55:08 - 00:16:57:05
you know what's left of it.

00:16:57:05 - 00:16:58:02
And let's, let's,

00:16:58:02 - 00:16:58:14
let's go

00:16:58:14 - 00:16:59:24
and scoop back up

00:16:59:24 - 00:17:00:09
the people

00:17:00:09 - 00:17:01:23
who are really dangerous, of which.

00:17:01:23 - 00:17:02:14
Right, because

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:03:23
because the goal of our prison

00:17:03:23 - 00:17:05:17
system is supposed to be to

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:06:12
to help reform

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:07:06
and rehabilitate

00:17:07:06 - 00:17:08:17
and integrate people into society,

00:17:08:17 - 00:17:10:15
not to create this caste system

00:17:10:15 - 00:17:12:09
that separates people

00:17:12:09 - 00:17:13:04
from us

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:14:05
completely and forever,

00:17:14:05 - 00:17:16:05
which is essentially what our

00:17:16:05 - 00:17:17:10
justice system does.

00:17:17:10 - 00:17:18:04
I mean, it

00:17:18:04 - 00:17:18:21
is it

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:20:01
almost not almost

00:17:20:01 - 00:17:21:20
it creates two different levels of,

00:17:21:20 - 00:17:24:02
say, these people and these people,

00:17:24:02 - 00:17:26:12
you're not as equal as humans as us.

00:17:26:12 - 00:17:28:06
You're it's creates an apartheid.

00:17:28:06 - 00:17:29:15
It really does.

00:17:29:19 - 00:17:30:02
Yeah.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:31:14
And it's designed to do

00:17:31:14 - 00:17:32:15
exactly what you just said.

00:17:32:15 - 00:17:34:00
It also to

00:17:34:00 - 00:17:35:17
protect society

00:17:35:17 - 00:17:37:23
from people who are truly dangerous.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:39:00
That's what it's supposed to do.

00:17:39:00 - 00:17:40:05
But that's not what it does.

00:17:40:05 - 00:17:41:17
No, that's what we do. Yes.

00:17:41:17 - 00:17:43:03
Because the percentage of people

00:17:43:03 - 00:17:44:23
that are in prison in America

00:17:44:23 - 00:17:45:19
that are truly

00:17:45:19 - 00:17:47:23
dangerous is a tiny, tiny

00:17:47:23 - 00:17:49:22
fraction of the overall number.

00:17:49:22 - 00:17:51:19
And it wasn't always like this. Yes.

00:17:51:19 - 00:17:52:18
It wasn't. Right.

00:17:52:18 - 00:17:55:11
And we got this way through politics.

00:17:55:12 - 00:17:55:23
In some way,

00:17:55:23 - 00:17:57:07
which is why I like to talk about right.

00:17:57:07 - 00:17:59:16
In terms of. Politics and economics.

00:18:00:04 - 00:18:00:23
And economics,

00:18:00:23 - 00:18:02:02
which I tie the two together.

00:18:02:02 - 00:18:02:19
Very much so.

00:18:02:19 - 00:18:04:02
But politics and economics and

00:18:04:02 - 00:18:04:20
what's convenient

00:18:06:01 - 00:18:07:04
Let's talk about that a little bit,

00:18:07:04 - 00:18:08:19
specifically

00:18:08:19 - 00:18:11:09
what you see towards a systemic solution.

00:18:11:17 - 00:18:12:11
And more importantly,

00:18:12:11 - 00:18:14:01
when you're talking to people

00:18:14:01 - 00:18:15:04
I know you've talked to presidents

00:18:15:04 - 00:18:16:11
and I like to have some conversations

00:18:16:11 - 00:18:16:21
about that,

00:18:16:21 - 00:18:18:06
like you've talked to presidents

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:20:11
and dignitaries about this.

00:18:20:11 - 00:18:21:05
So I think you had

00:18:21:05 - 00:18:22:06
a really interesting conversation

00:18:22:06 - 00:18:23:04
with Clinton.

00:18:23:04 - 00:18:23:20
I love to

00:18:23:20 - 00:18:24:15
I love to figure out

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:26:00
like I love to talk through.

00:18:26:00 - 00:18:26:13
When you

00:18:26:13 - 00:18:27:16
when you have these conversations

00:18:27:16 - 00:18:29:08
with leaders like presidents,

00:18:29:08 - 00:18:30:06
you can talk about Clinton

00:18:30:06 - 00:18:31:13
or whoever else you want.

00:18:31:13 - 00:18:32:23
How does this conversation go

00:18:32:23 - 00:18:34:22
and what's usually like

00:18:34:22 - 00:18:36:10
preventing them from really understanding

00:18:36:10 - 00:18:38:01
what's happening here?

00:18:38:16 - 00:18:39:19
I want to talk about that.

00:18:39:19 - 00:18:42:04
But before we do, I want to just

00:18:42:04 - 00:18:44:15
I wanted to reference back to that 1993.

00:18:44:16 - 00:18:45:22
Sure. Go ahead. Go ahead. But

00:18:47:02 - 00:18:48:14
because last night

00:18:48:14 - 00:18:49:23
or yesterday afternoon,

00:18:49:23 - 00:18:51:13
I got a text from an attorney

00:18:51:13 - 00:18:52:17
for a guy named Ben

00:18:52:17 - 00:18:54:10
Simmons who was on my podcast

00:18:54:10 - 00:18:56:08
Wrongful Conviction is the podcast.

00:18:56:08 - 00:18:57:21
And Vincent,

00:18:57:21 - 00:18:59:01
one of the more powerful interviews

00:18:59:01 - 00:18:59:16
I've ever done.

00:18:59:16 - 00:19:02:23
He's been in prison for 44 years

00:19:03:01 - 00:19:06:21
In Louisiana totally innocent

00:19:07:21 - 00:19:09:05
he's there

00:19:09:15 - 00:19:12:02
because he was classic

00:19:13:08 - 00:19:15:01
to kill a Mockingbird type of case,

00:19:15:01 - 00:19:16:00
I guess you could say.

00:19:16:00 - 00:19:20:07
He was accused by two young white

00:19:20:07 - 00:19:22:12
sisters of

00:19:23:13 - 00:19:25:22
all sorts of horrendous acts

00:19:25:22 - 00:19:28:15
against them. Yeah,

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:30:19
it was abundantly clear from day

00:19:30:19 - 00:19:32:10
one that they made up the story.

00:19:32:10 - 00:19:33:11
They didn't even report it

00:19:33:11 - 00:19:35:15
until weeks later.

00:19:35:19 - 00:19:38:11
And what seems to be the case

00:19:38:11 - 00:19:41:10
is that they were being

00:19:41:16 - 00:19:44:09
they were engaged

00:19:44:09 - 00:19:46:17
in these activities with their cousin

00:19:46:17 - 00:19:47:10
who was older,

00:19:48:09 - 00:19:49:23
and they didn't, you know,

00:19:49:23 - 00:19:51:15
they didn't want to fess up to that.

00:19:51:15 - 00:19:52:23
So you know, this is this

00:19:52:23 - 00:19:53:13
like I said, this

00:19:53:13 - 00:19:55:07
story is as old as time.

00:19:55:07 - 00:19:56:00
The

00:19:56:22 - 00:19:59:03
the cousin's brother, I believe,

00:19:59:03 - 00:20:01:00
was one of the investigating officer,

00:20:01:00 - 00:20:02:16
was Laborde

00:20:02:16 - 00:20:03:15
is a family down

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:04:23
there is a very powerful family

00:20:04:23 - 00:20:06:10
in this in this area.

00:20:06:10 - 00:20:07:08
And so obviously

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:09:15
he wasn't going down for it.

00:20:09:15 - 00:20:11:00
And Vincent,

00:20:11:00 - 00:20:12:14
when he went to the police station,

00:20:12:14 - 00:20:12:24
and wouldn't

00:20:12:24 - 00:20:16:14
confess, was shot in the police station.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:17:22
by the officers.

00:20:17:22 - 00:20:20:01
Yeah, they shot him in the police station

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:21:07
and missed his heart by an inch

00:20:21:07 - 00:20:23:16
Is you can't make this shit up. Right.

00:20:23:16 - 00:20:23:22
And he,

00:20:23:22 - 00:20:25:08
of course, was sentenced to life

00:20:25:08 - 00:20:26:24
without parole.

00:20:26:24 - 00:20:28:23
He's been in, like I said, since God,

00:20:28:23 - 00:20:30:07
let's see. 44 years.

00:20:30:07 - 00:20:31:02
What even is that?

00:20:31:02 - 00:20:31:19
You, you aren't

00:20:31:19 - 00:20:33:18
even close to 44 years old yet, right.

00:20:33:18 - 00:20:35:01
So now I'm getting close.

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:38:12
But, but it's just, it's unimaginable.

00:20:38:22 - 00:20:40:23
So I got a text yesterday

00:20:41:24 - 00:20:45:09
from the attorney, Justin Bonas, who said

00:20:45:17 - 00:20:46:17
I thought you may want

00:20:46:17 - 00:20:48:11
he sent me a clip from Instagram.

00:20:48:11 - 00:20:48:18
He said,

00:20:48:18 - 00:20:49:21
thought you may want to watch that.

00:20:49:21 - 00:20:51:00
You have been a major part

00:20:51:00 - 00:20:52:13
in getting us some traction, bro,

00:20:52:13 - 00:20:54:06
with five exclamation points,

00:20:54:06 - 00:20:55:24
God willing. Vincent gets out soon.

00:20:55:24 - 00:20:57:07
Got a hearing on the 14th.

00:20:57:07 - 00:20:58:05
Maybe you and Vincent

00:20:58:05 - 00:20:59:23
get an early present.

00:20:59:23 - 00:21:02:14
He was on CBS This Morning.

00:21:02:14 - 00:21:04:01
I'm getting the chills

00:21:04:01 - 00:21:05:16
where the sisters admitted

00:21:05:16 - 00:21:07:00
that they made it up.

00:21:07:00 - 00:21:08:01
Wow.

00:21:08:01 - 00:21:10:08
Okay, so it should be instant we should be done.

00:21:10:23 - 00:21:11:15
We should be done.

00:21:11:15 - 00:21:12:04
But, you know,

00:21:12:07 - 00:21:14:00
it don't work that way. No, we don't.

00:21:14:00 - 00:21:15:06
We now,

00:21:15:06 - 00:21:17:01
listen, I mean, we've got too many cases

00:21:17:01 - 00:21:17:19
where, you know,

00:21:17:19 - 00:21:19:17
the evidence is completely falling apart,

00:21:19:17 - 00:21:21:14
and yet the person remains in prison

00:21:21:14 - 00:21:22:15
where there's DNA to prove

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:24:06
they're innocent, where there's

00:21:24:06 - 00:21:25:13
the witness, the only witness is,

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:26:13
you know, it changes their story.

00:21:26:13 - 00:21:28:00
Whatever it is, it doesn't mean

00:21:28:00 - 00:21:30:03
they still keep you in if they can. So

00:21:31:04 - 00:21:32:12
so back to your question.

00:21:32:12 - 00:21:34:05
So, you know, to

00:21:34:05 - 00:21:35:07
you come back to that question

00:21:35:07 - 00:21:36:16
because we'll come back to the question

00:21:36:16 - 00:21:37:17
about the president's

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:38:09
I'm going to separate that.

00:21:38:09 - 00:21:39:05
Let's come back to that

00:21:39:05 - 00:21:41:02
because I want to go down this

00:21:41:02 - 00:21:42:03
rabbit hole

00:21:42:03 - 00:21:42:24
of some of these unjust

00:21:42:24 - 00:21:44:19
some of these unjust cases

00:21:44:19 - 00:21:46:24
since we're there right now.

00:21:46:24 - 00:21:48:08
I want to talk about some cases in Ohio.

00:21:48:08 - 00:21:50:15
if that's okay. Yeah. Please. Yeah.

00:21:51:01 - 00:21:51:17
And then we're going to

00:21:51:17 - 00:21:52:11
I do want to come back.

00:21:52:11 - 00:21:53:13
I'm actually going to ask you a question

00:21:53:13 - 00:21:55:07
about the president and Kim Kardashian

00:21:55:07 - 00:21:56:06
But since we're on

00:21:56:06 - 00:21:57:13
this part of the subject

00:21:57:13 - 00:21:58:17
of really discussing

00:21:58:17 - 00:22:00:06
some of these specific facts

00:22:00:06 - 00:22:01:02
I want to talk about.

00:22:01:02 - 00:22:02:12
I would be remiss

00:22:02:12 - 00:22:03:10
being from Ohio

00:22:03:10 - 00:22:04:09
and having a good amount

00:22:04:09 - 00:22:05:20
of our audience from Cincinnati

00:22:05:20 - 00:22:07:15
and Cleveland and Columbus

00:22:07:15 - 00:22:08:07
to not address

00:22:08:07 - 00:22:10:08
what's going on here in Ohio. So

00:22:11:21 - 00:22:13:01
there are a couple of Ohio cases

00:22:13:01 - 00:22:13:19
I definitely want,

00:22:13:19 - 00:22:15:04
but I think people should just hear

00:22:15:04 - 00:22:16:17
and understand

00:22:16:17 - 00:22:18:00
the basics of what's going on.

00:22:18:00 - 00:22:19:00
Just to give you some sense

00:22:19:00 - 00:22:20:19
that of how bad things are.

00:22:20:19 - 00:22:22:15
And there's one that there's

00:22:22:15 - 00:22:23:20
there's a couple I want to go over that

00:22:23:20 - 00:22:24:18
I know you're working on.

00:22:24:18 - 00:22:25:20
So the Kevin Keith case

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:27:10
as well as John Jones case.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:28:24
And I'll let's start with Kevin Keith

00:22:28:24 - 00:22:29:22
and I think

00:22:30:03 - 00:22:31:23
just explaining the facts

00:22:31:23 - 00:22:33:09
of what's happened in that case

00:22:33:09 - 00:22:34:23
and just how outrageous it was,

00:22:34:23 - 00:22:37:13
I think people just need to hear

00:22:37:13 - 00:22:39:06
because it doesn't even sound believable.

00:22:39:06 - 00:22:41:15
It sounds like something you'd see on a

00:22:41:15 - 00:22:42:14
Netflix drama.

00:22:42:14 - 00:22:44:12
But this is the United States of America

00:22:44:12 - 00:22:45:11
its criminal justice system.

00:22:45:11 - 00:22:47:00
So Kevin Keith like

00:22:47:00 - 00:22:49:07
tell us tell us a little bit about him.

00:22:49:07 - 00:22:51:09
As the United States of Ohio right here.

00:22:51:09 - 00:22:52:02
I mean, be

00:22:53:11 - 00:22:55:18
and not to pick on Ohio, but you can.

00:22:55:18 - 00:22:56:24
Pick on Ohio when it comes to this.

00:22:56:24 - 00:22:58:02
It's fine. Yeah.

00:22:58:02 - 00:23:00:07
Look, Ohio is bad, bad, bad.

00:23:00:07 - 00:23:01:02
There's a lot of states

00:23:01:02 - 00:23:01:20
that are terrible.

00:23:01:20 - 00:23:02:07
But, you know,

00:23:02:07 - 00:23:04:22
Ohio is it's not it's not a

00:23:06:04 - 00:23:07:21
it's not a beacon of light in this area.

00:23:07:21 - 00:23:09:11
By any stretch of the imagination.

00:23:09:11 - 00:23:12:19
Kevin Keiths case this goes back God about

00:23:13:23 - 00:23:16:00
close to 30 years now.

00:23:16:00 - 00:23:18:09
And what happened was there was a

00:23:19:23 - 00:23:24:06
an individual who was apparently running

00:23:24:06 - 00:23:25:14
a robbery

00:23:25:14 - 00:23:28:17
and drug ring with some local cops

00:23:28:17 - 00:23:30:20
and the feds were investigating it

00:23:31:12 - 00:23:33:11
and this guy came to find out

00:23:33:11 - 00:23:35:03
this investigation was going on

00:23:35:03 - 00:23:36:22
and went to the home of somebody

00:23:36:22 - 00:23:39:10
who he believed to be the informant

00:23:39:10 - 00:23:39:24
to kill him.

00:23:41:01 - 00:23:43:07
Fortunately for that guy, he wasn't home.

00:23:43:07 - 00:23:44:22
But unfortunately, six

00:23:44:22 - 00:23:47:05
members of the family were in the home

00:23:47:05 - 00:23:48:16
at that time,

00:23:49:04 - 00:23:51:15
and all six of them were shot,

00:23:51:15 - 00:23:53:08
three died, three lived.

00:23:53:08 - 00:23:54:12
It was a

00:23:55:14 - 00:23:57:00
gruesome situation.

00:23:57:00 - 00:24:00:06
Obviously, three of them were children.

00:24:00:12 - 00:24:01:23
And

00:24:02:12 - 00:24:04:14
the issue seems to have been that

00:24:04:14 - 00:24:08:04
the authorities were not in any mood

00:24:08:04 - 00:24:10:13
to arrest the actual perpetrator,

00:24:11:05 - 00:24:12:05
who I believe was

00:24:12:05 - 00:24:13:17
known to them at the time

00:24:13:17 - 00:24:16:02
because he had information on them

00:24:16:14 - 00:24:19:04
that could have been extremely

00:24:19:04 - 00:24:21:01
inconvenient to come out.

00:24:21:01 - 00:24:23:04
Right. So they had to get a scapegoat.

00:24:23:04 - 00:24:23:21
Obviously,

00:24:23:21 - 00:24:24:18
when a case like this

00:24:24:18 - 00:24:26:22
as high profile as it was

00:24:26:22 - 00:24:29:07
you got to get somebody right.

00:24:29:07 - 00:24:30:24
I mean, there's a saying in the

00:24:30:24 - 00:24:32:05
legal system in this country,

00:24:32:05 - 00:24:33:18
a body for a body.

00:24:33:18 - 00:24:34:05
In this case,

00:24:34:05 - 00:24:35:11
it was a body for

00:24:35:11 - 00:24:36:24
three bodies and three other

00:24:36:24 - 00:24:39:05
grievously wounded people.

00:24:39:05 - 00:24:41:16
So they picked up a local

00:24:41:17 - 00:24:42:21
that they were just basically

00:24:42:21 - 00:24:43:19
looking for a black guy

00:24:43:19 - 00:24:45:17
they could arrest. From what I can tell,

00:24:46:19 - 00:24:46:22
there

00:24:46:22 - 00:24:48:03
was a guy named Kevin Keith

00:24:48:03 - 00:24:49:24
who had moved to town recently

00:24:49:24 - 00:24:52:00
and had been picked up for,

00:24:52:00 - 00:24:53:10
I think, possession of a joint

00:24:53:10 - 00:24:54:05
or something like that.

00:24:54:05 - 00:24:54:17
Going back

00:24:54:17 - 00:24:56:02
to the previous conversation,

00:24:56:02 - 00:24:58:17
so he was in their system

00:24:58:17 - 00:25:02:04
and he was railroaded in ways that are

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:04:10
really unbelievable.

00:25:04:10 - 00:25:05:21
I mean, they made up a phone call

00:25:05:21 - 00:25:06:14
that they claimed

00:25:06:14 - 00:25:09:09
the victim made from the hospital to

00:25:10:09 - 00:25:11:16
which identified him.

00:25:11:16 - 00:25:12:00
Of course,

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:13:01
when the phone records came out,

00:25:13:01 - 00:25:14:01
there were no phone calls

00:25:14:01 - 00:25:16:02
made from the hospital.

00:25:16:03 - 00:25:18:09
Later on, there was someone who called

00:25:18:09 - 00:25:20:14
and identified

00:25:21:16 - 00:25:23:19
a witness

00:25:23:19 - 00:25:24:06
who called up

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:25:21
and identified him,

00:25:25:21 - 00:25:27:10
who claimed to be a nurse

00:25:27:10 - 00:25:30:05
from the hospital, who overheard

00:25:30:05 - 00:25:32:10
one of the victims say his name.

00:25:32:10 - 00:25:35:04
But the nurse got her own name wrong.

00:25:35:23 - 00:25:36:07
Right.

00:25:36:07 - 00:25:38:16
Like her name was whatever.

00:25:38:16 - 00:25:39:21
Let's say her name was Richardson

00:25:39:21 - 00:25:41:04
and she said it was Robertson.

00:25:41:04 - 00:25:42:05
I think she

00:25:42:05 - 00:25:43:08
she almost got it right,

00:25:43:08 - 00:25:45:10
but she screwed it up her own name.

00:25:45:10 - 00:25:46:12
And what I understand,

00:25:46:12 - 00:25:47:10
I think the bigger part of it is

00:25:47:10 - 00:25:49:04
I can say like well,

00:25:49:04 - 00:25:50:22
my understanding is like the basically

00:25:50:22 - 00:25:52:20
the the officers

00:25:52:20 - 00:25:54:00
had some involvement in this

00:25:54:00 - 00:25:54:18
because their

00:25:56:02 - 00:25:56:22
their

00:25:57:09 - 00:25:58:22
their informant is involved in this.

00:25:58:22 - 00:26:00:06
And it actually kind

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:01:19
of complicated situation like I do.

00:26:01:19 - 00:26:02:16
I do think it's important

00:26:02:16 - 00:26:03:06
people understand

00:26:03:06 - 00:26:04:19
like there was like that

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:06:03
that that officers were involved

00:26:06:03 - 00:26:06:22
in this as well

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:07:23
and have been kind

00:26:07:23 - 00:26:09:00
of sticking close to the story

00:26:09:00 - 00:26:09:19
because of that.

00:26:09:19 - 00:26:11:04
I don't know all the particulars of facts

00:26:11:04 - 00:26:11:23
on that part of it,

00:26:11:23 - 00:26:13:05
but I know we talked about that.

00:26:13:05 - 00:26:14:10
If you remember that part.

00:26:14:10 - 00:26:15:22
I think it's important just to just

00:26:15:22 - 00:26:17:21
just to just to bring that up.

00:26:17:21 - 00:26:18:04
Yeah.

00:26:18:04 - 00:26:18:10
I mean,

00:26:18:10 - 00:26:19:19
whether they were complicit in this

00:26:19:19 - 00:26:20:10
because of the fact

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:21:15
that they were operating this

00:26:21:15 - 00:26:22:06
this ring

00:26:22:06 - 00:26:23:08
that when my understanding is that

00:26:23:08 - 00:26:24:11
they were robbing pharmacies

00:26:24:11 - 00:26:24:24
and they were selling

00:26:24:24 - 00:26:26:17
the drugs on the streets,

00:26:26:17 - 00:26:27:01
you know,

00:26:27:01 - 00:26:28:17
knowing what we know about the state

00:26:28:17 - 00:26:30:15
of law enforcement in America.

00:26:30:15 - 00:26:31:20
They were literally

00:26:31:20 - 00:26:32:15
robbing pharmacies

00:26:32:15 - 00:26:34:09
and selling drugs on the streets.

00:26:34:09 - 00:26:35:08
The cops involved,

00:26:35:08 - 00:26:36:09
I think the people need to know

00:26:36:09 - 00:26:37:11
this, that this is crazy.

00:26:37:11 - 00:26:38:21
This was going on. But go ahead.

00:26:38:21 - 00:26:39:09
That's the point

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:40:20
that I wanted to bring up.

00:26:40:20 - 00:26:42:03
And the corruption goes up higher

00:26:42:03 - 00:26:42:15
and higher.

00:26:42:15 - 00:26:44:16
And then later on, by the way,

00:26:44:16 - 00:26:46:01
it turns out that that phone call from

00:26:46:01 - 00:26:46:20
the alleged nurse

00:26:46:20 - 00:26:47:24
was actually made by the daughter

00:26:47:24 - 00:26:49:21
of one of the detectives. So, you know.

00:26:51:05 - 00:26:51:12
They didn't

00:26:51:12 - 00:26:52:23
want all of that to be exposed

00:26:52:23 - 00:26:54:04
because that's part

00:26:54:04 - 00:26:55:11
of what's going on here.

00:26:55:11 - 00:26:57:17
No, Kevin was a convenient scapegoat,

00:26:58:15 - 00:27:00:24
just like Kevin Cooper, who whose podcast

00:27:00:24 - 00:27:01:11
I released

00:27:01:11 - 00:27:03:09
today on my on my

00:27:03:09 - 00:27:04:19
wrongful conviction, who's

00:27:04:19 - 00:27:05:12
whose case is

00:27:05:12 - 00:27:07:01
as grotesque of an injustice

00:27:07:01 - 00:27:09:12
as any guy I've ever heard of.

00:27:09:15 - 00:27:10:19
Kevin has been in prison

00:27:10:19 - 00:27:13:14
since 1983 in California sentenced to death

00:27:14:05 - 00:27:14:23
and his case

00:27:14:23 - 00:27:15:08
is one of the

00:27:15:08 - 00:27:17:22
most disgusting and outrageous

00:27:19:07 - 00:27:20:24
frame jobs I've ever seen.

00:27:20:24 - 00:27:21:06
Again

00:27:21:06 - 00:27:22:14
another home invasion

00:27:22:14 - 00:27:24:21
where four people were brutally murdered

00:27:25:07 - 00:27:27:18
and with knives and hatchets and

00:27:28:07 - 00:27:30:09
another kid was left for dead but

00:27:30:21 - 00:27:32:14
and where the perpetrators remain free

00:27:32:14 - 00:27:33:19
because let's not forget

00:27:33:19 - 00:27:36:12
when when we go and arrest Kevin Keith

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:37:05
and we go and arrest

00:27:37:05 - 00:27:37:24
Kevin Cooper

00:27:37:24 - 00:27:40:04
and then we prosecute and persecute

00:27:40:04 - 00:27:41:10
and convict them,

00:27:41:10 - 00:27:43:07
we do it at the expense of public safety

00:27:43:07 - 00:27:44:20
because the actual perpetrators

00:27:44:20 - 00:27:46:17
are on the street by definition.

00:27:46:17 - 00:27:49:13
So you know, and they go on to commit

00:27:49:13 - 00:27:50:17
more horrendous.

00:27:50:17 - 00:27:52:10
crimes and there's more cases.

00:27:52:10 - 00:27:54:06
There's John Jones there's other people.

00:27:54:06 - 00:27:55:07
I mean, there's a

00:27:55:07 - 00:27:56:10
I just want to just tell people

00:27:56:10 - 00:27:57:07
that there's a whole lot

00:27:57:07 - 00:27:58:11
going on here in Ohio.

00:27:58:11 - 00:27:59:14
And, you know,

00:27:59:14 - 00:28:01:05
we don't have to spend a

00:28:01:05 - 00:28:02:00
ton of time on it,

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:02:13
but I think that's

00:28:02:13 - 00:28:03:20
worth some time because John Jones

00:28:03:20 - 00:28:05:02
is going through this right now.

00:28:05:02 - 00:28:07:03
He is being he's locked up.

00:28:07:04 - 00:28:08:08
You've had him on the show. Definitely.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:09:24
I encourage everybody to watch.

00:28:09:24 - 00:28:11:07
Wrongful conviction.

00:28:11:07 - 00:28:15:09
John Jones is in jail for the shaken baby

00:28:15:09 - 00:28:16:19
case of another shaken

00:28:16:19 - 00:28:17:06
baby case

00:28:17:06 - 00:28:18:05
which has been shown

00:28:18:05 - 00:28:19:20
to be defunct science.

00:28:19:20 - 00:28:21:12
And it's pretty much like it's

00:28:21:12 - 00:28:22:15
it's a clear cut case that he did

00:28:22:15 - 00:28:24:12
not do it. That that's not

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:25:09
That's not

00:28:25:17 - 00:28:27:21
the reason that his infant died

00:28:27:21 - 00:28:29:05
and that he was a good father.

00:28:29:05 - 00:28:30:15
None of that matter because he's black.

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:30:23
Right.

00:28:30:23 - 00:28:32:16
And because it's just they

00:28:32:16 - 00:28:33:15
they found a way

00:28:33:15 - 00:28:34:03
they have

00:28:34:03 - 00:28:36:02
a narrative in their brain about

00:28:36:02 - 00:28:37:06
this is what it looks like,

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:39:04
shaken baby syndrome.

00:28:39:04 - 00:28:40:10
This is what we want to convict

00:28:40:10 - 00:28:41:14
and this is how we can do it.

00:28:41:14 - 00:28:42:21
And we create this.

00:28:42:21 - 00:28:43:11
It's about it's

00:28:43:11 - 00:28:45:01
more about a process

00:28:45:01 - 00:28:46:06
that's that's in place

00:28:46:06 - 00:28:47:05
and less about justice

00:28:47:05 - 00:28:49:14
is because we go through these things

00:28:49:14 - 00:28:50:23
and we've done this process.

00:28:50:23 - 00:28:52:01
It is less about somebody's

00:28:52:01 - 00:28:52:20
life like these.

00:28:52:20 - 00:28:54:22
The hospital won't release records.

00:28:54:22 - 00:28:56:13
I mean, it's just insane.

00:28:56:13 - 00:28:58:10
That this is accepted as okay in America.

00:28:58:10 - 00:28:59:22
So sorry to go on my rant,

00:28:59:22 - 00:29:02:12
but it really is it really is upsetting.

00:29:02:12 - 00:29:02:22
Oh, yeah.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:04:17
And listen John, is it

00:29:04:17 - 00:29:04:22
you know,

00:29:04:22 - 00:29:05:14
I feel like it's

00:29:05:14 - 00:29:06:14
I've never met the man

00:29:06:14 - 00:29:07:21
because I haven't been able to visit him

00:29:07:21 - 00:29:08:11
because of COVID,

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:10:01
but I've spent hours and hours

00:29:10:01 - 00:29:10:18
and hours on the phone

00:29:10:18 - 00:29:12:00
with him from prison.

00:29:12:00 - 00:29:14:01
And, you know, his case

00:29:14:19 - 00:29:16:15
is the shaken baby case.

00:29:16:15 - 00:29:18:04
And this is super important

00:29:18:04 - 00:29:19:00
because Cuyahoga

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:21:07
County and Cuyahoga County

00:29:21:07 - 00:29:22:12
is one of the most

00:29:23:20 - 00:29:27:06
incompetent and

00:29:27:06 - 00:29:30:03
arguably corrupt

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:33:00
forensic labs in the country.

00:29:33:10 - 00:29:34:12
It's been a hotspot

00:29:34:12 - 00:29:35:14
of wrongful convictions

00:29:35:14 - 00:29:38:05
for so many years and shaken baby.

00:29:38:16 - 00:29:38:21
You know,

00:29:38:21 - 00:29:41:11
these things come in clusters, right?

00:29:41:11 - 00:29:42:24
Because you have certain

00:29:42:24 - 00:29:44:14
pediatricians or others

00:29:44:14 - 00:29:47:02
who will testify again and again

00:29:47:02 - 00:29:47:24
in case after case.

00:29:47:24 - 00:29:48:14
And they'll just

00:29:48:14 - 00:29:49:20
one size fits all must

00:29:49:20 - 00:29:51:21
if the baby died, must be shaken baby now

00:29:52:14 - 00:29:54:00
shaken baby syndrome.

00:29:54:00 - 00:29:54:21
And it's so important

00:29:54:21 - 00:29:56:06
that we're here talking about this now

00:29:56:06 - 00:29:57:10
because some of your listeners

00:29:57:10 - 00:29:58:22
are going to end up on a jury one day.

00:29:58:22 - 00:29:59:04
Right.

00:29:59:04 - 00:30:02:07
And I encourage people, don't throw up.

00:30:02:07 - 00:30:03:19
Don't crumple up and throw out that jury.

00:30:03:19 - 00:30:04:12
No.

00:30:04:14 - 00:30:04:22
You know,

00:30:04:22 - 00:30:06:16
go and serve on a jury

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:07:23
and remember the things

00:30:07:23 - 00:30:09:00
that you're hearing today.

00:30:09:00 - 00:30:09:13
And like I said,

00:30:09:13 - 00:30:11:10
listen to the Wrongful Conviction podcast

00:30:11:10 - 00:30:12:15
so you can learn what goes on.

00:30:12:15 - 00:30:14:04
We have a whole episode of Wrongful

00:30:14:04 - 00:30:15:07
Conviction Junk Science

00:30:15:07 - 00:30:16:22
devoted to shaken baby syndrome.

00:30:16:22 - 00:30:18:13
Maybe you could link to it in your bio.

00:30:18:13 - 00:30:20:06
I would definitely do it.

00:30:20:06 - 00:30:22:07
But here's the basics of shaken baby

00:30:22:07 - 00:30:23:02
syndrome, right?

00:30:23:02 - 00:30:25:11
So we as humans

00:30:25:11 - 00:30:26:14
have a very hard time

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:27:02
accepting that

00:30:27:02 - 00:30:29:07
sometimes babies just die, right?

00:30:29:11 - 00:30:31:08
But sometimes they do.

00:30:31:08 - 00:30:32:22
There's all kinds of reasons

00:30:32:22 - 00:30:33:24
why a baby could die.

00:30:33:24 - 00:30:35:01
There's SIDS

00:30:35:01 - 00:30:36:20
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome,

00:30:36:20 - 00:30:37:11
there's sickle

00:30:37:11 - 00:30:38:12
cell trait,

00:30:38:12 - 00:30:39:18
there's various different things

00:30:39:18 - 00:30:41:13
that cause babies to die

00:30:41:13 - 00:30:45:03
unexpectedly without any obvious signs.

00:30:45:13 - 00:30:47:10
Now, a doctor, Dr.

00:30:47:10 - 00:30:48:06
Guth Kelch, in

00:30:48:06 - 00:30:49:14
England, theorized

00:30:49:14 - 00:30:50:13
that there could be a thing

00:30:50:13 - 00:30:52:02
where people were shaking babies.

00:30:52:02 - 00:30:54:04
This was many decades ago

00:30:54:04 - 00:30:55:09
but his basic thing was

00:30:55:09 - 00:30:56:22
he wanted to discourage people

00:30:56:22 - 00:30:58:05
from shaking their babies.

00:30:58:05 - 00:30:59:16
And so he came up with this thing,

00:30:59:16 - 00:31:01:01
but he didn't put out that

00:31:01:01 - 00:31:01:22
he thought that this was

00:31:01:22 - 00:31:03:07
why babies were dying or anything.

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:03:21
And he's later

00:31:03:21 - 00:31:07:20
in later years come to regret publicly.

00:31:07:20 - 00:31:09:22
He said he regrets that he sort of

00:31:10:06 - 00:31:11:06
put this theory out there.

00:31:11:06 - 00:31:13:05
It's been so badly misused.

00:31:13:05 - 00:31:14:17
What we know now is that

00:31:16:14 - 00:31:17:08
it's virtually

00:31:17:08 - 00:31:19:08
impossible to shake a baby hard enough

00:31:19:08 - 00:31:20:06
to rattle its brain

00:31:20:06 - 00:31:21:16
without breaking its neck.

00:31:21:16 - 00:31:23:16
Perfectly logical, right?

00:31:23:16 - 00:31:24:20
But none of these babies

00:31:24:20 - 00:31:25:08
have broken

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:27:06
necks and furthermore, no,

00:31:27:06 - 00:31:29:04
no one has ever seen,

00:31:29:04 - 00:31:31:18
witnessed or videotaped anyone ever

00:31:31:18 - 00:31:33:09
shaking a baby to death.

00:31:33:09 - 00:31:35:03
So this is a medical myth

00:31:35:03 - 00:31:38:03
in my educated opinion, I believe that

00:31:38:20 - 00:31:40:15
everyone in prison on shaken baby

00:31:40:15 - 00:31:42:11
syndrome needs a new trial.

00:31:42:11 - 00:31:44:11
And we need to have actual experts.

00:31:44:11 - 00:31:45:10
In John Jones's

00:31:45:10 - 00:31:45:18
case,

00:31:45:18 - 00:31:46:05
we brought in

00:31:46:05 - 00:31:48:15
one of the foremost experts in the world,

00:31:48:15 - 00:31:49:23
Kate Judson

00:31:49:23 - 00:31:51:03
from the Center for Integrity

00:31:51:03 - 00:31:52:14
and Forensic Sciences.

00:31:52:14 - 00:31:54:18
And she has examined the evidence

00:31:54:23 - 00:31:56:24
with you know,

00:31:57:01 - 00:31:59:03
with with, you know, rigidity

00:31:59:03 - 00:32:00:03
and with with

00:32:00:03 - 00:32:01:12
whatever you want to call it, with,

00:32:01:12 - 00:32:02:19
you know, with the standards

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:03:19
that should be applied to

00:32:03:19 - 00:32:04:22
every one of these cases.

00:32:06:08 - 00:32:07:16
She has no bias.

00:32:07:16 - 00:32:08:16
She doesn't know, John.

00:32:08:16 - 00:32:10:01
She wasn't hired by the defense,

00:32:10:01 - 00:32:11:19
but she has

00:32:12:15 - 00:32:13:17
volunteered her time

00:32:13:17 - 00:32:14:14
to look at this case.

00:32:14:14 - 00:32:15:22
And come back and said

00:32:15:22 - 00:32:18:17
that this baby was not harmed by John or

00:32:18:17 - 00:32:19:12
anyone else.

00:32:19:12 - 00:32:21:15
The baby just freakin died.

00:32:22:00 - 00:32:24:05
And so it's it's a tragedy

00:32:24:05 - 00:32:25:10
on top of a tragedy.

00:32:25:10 - 00:32:27:09
I mean, imagine being a parent,

00:32:27:09 - 00:32:29:05
losing a child

00:32:29:05 - 00:32:31:08
and then being sent to prison

00:32:32:07 - 00:32:33:04
wrongly

00:32:33:04 - 00:32:34:23
because some official

00:32:34:23 - 00:32:35:07
is trying

00:32:35:07 - 00:32:36:09
to make their bones

00:32:36:09 - 00:32:37:17
or move up the ladder.

00:32:37:17 - 00:32:39:01
or get a conviction.

00:32:39:01 - 00:32:40:14
And, you know, and it's just

00:32:40:14 - 00:32:40:24
you're just

00:32:40:24 - 00:32:42:11
you're just disposable, and it's fine.

00:32:42:11 - 00:32:43:17
And I one more thing I want to say.

00:32:43:17 - 00:32:44:10
I'm shaken baby,

00:32:44:10 - 00:32:45:04
because it's so important

00:32:45:04 - 00:32:46:11
because this is Ohio

00:32:46:11 - 00:32:47:07
Sure, this happens

00:32:47:07 - 00:32:48:15
more than maybe anywhere else in

00:32:48:15 - 00:32:49:15
the country, it seems like.

00:32:51:12 - 00:32:52:11
Is that

00:32:53:04 - 00:32:56:02
and this is my theory, right?

00:32:56:03 - 00:32:58:21
When you get mad at something, right?

00:32:58:22 - 00:33:00:17
I don't care what you get mad at.

00:33:00:17 - 00:33:01:14
If it's it

00:33:01:14 - 00:33:02:23
if it's your tennis racket

00:33:02:23 - 00:33:05:07
because you missed a shot or it's your

00:33:06:00 - 00:33:08:08
you know, if it's a person or a,

00:33:08:23 - 00:33:11:00
you know, whatever it might be.

00:33:11:00 - 00:33:13:07
We don't shake things when we're mad.

00:33:13:16 - 00:33:15:20
Right? We throw them,

00:33:15:20 - 00:33:17:20
we hit them or we kick them.

00:33:17:20 - 00:33:19:01
That is our instinct

00:33:19:01 - 00:33:22:20
when we're in a moment of real rage.

00:33:23:06 - 00:33:23:23
Right?

00:33:24:00 - 00:33:26:01
Nobody takes their golf club

00:33:26:03 - 00:33:28:02
and shakes it like you golf club.

00:33:28:02 - 00:33:28:23
You hit a bad shot.

00:33:28:23 - 00:33:31:04
No, people fling it, youv'e seen it on TV right

00:33:31:04 - 00:33:32:02
you shouldn't.

00:33:32:02 - 00:33:33:17
No one should do that.

00:33:33:17 - 00:33:35:02
But it's a relatively benign

00:33:35:02 - 00:33:36:03
activity as long as you don't hit

00:33:36:03 - 00:33:37:03
anybody else.

00:33:37:03 - 00:33:38:14
But the fact is, shaking

00:33:38:14 - 00:33:39:19
is an unnatural act.

00:33:39:19 - 00:33:41:20
And furthermore, I will say this.

00:33:42:04 - 00:33:43:09
I asked people to just think

00:33:43:09 - 00:33:44:06
logically in case

00:33:44:06 - 00:33:45:19
you ever end up on a jury.

00:33:45:19 - 00:33:48:05
Let's say these are normally women

00:33:48:08 - 00:33:49:19
that are convicted of shaken baby

00:33:49:19 - 00:33:51:09
syndrome, caretakers,

00:33:51:09 - 00:33:52:21
daycare providers,

00:33:52:21 - 00:33:54:23
or or parents or grandparents.

00:33:55:09 - 00:33:55:19
Now,

00:33:57:09 - 00:33:57:24
how the

00:33:57:24 - 00:33:58:17
hell is

00:33:58:17 - 00:34:00:18
a woman let's say it's a 120 pound

00:34:00:18 - 00:34:01:21
woman or whatever.

00:34:01:21 - 00:34:05:22
I don't care if she's 175 pounds, I'm 175 pounds

00:34:06:08 - 00:34:07:23
If I want a hold something

00:34:07:23 - 00:34:11:10
that weighs about 12, 15 pounds or 20 pounds out

00:34:11:10 - 00:34:12:01
at arm's length,

00:34:12:01 - 00:34:13:00
you can't shake something

00:34:13:00 - 00:34:13:15
if you're holding it

00:34:13:15 - 00:34:15:22
close to you, it's impossible.

00:34:15:22 - 00:34:18:06
So you want to tell me

00:34:18:06 - 00:34:20:00
that somebody is so strong

00:34:20:00 - 00:34:21:12
that they can hold something out

00:34:21:12 - 00:34:23:09
at arm's length and shake it? Which way?

00:34:23:09 - 00:34:23:22
This way.

00:34:23:22 - 00:34:24:15
This way.

00:34:24:15 - 00:34:25:08
Your arms.

00:34:25:08 - 00:34:26:12
I mean, my arms are tired

00:34:26:12 - 00:34:27:22
from holding nothing.

00:34:27:22 - 00:34:29:06
You're trying to hold your arms out

00:34:29:06 - 00:34:30:21
at that length for a minute

00:34:30:21 - 00:34:32:18
and I'll give you a yoga certificate,

00:34:32:18 - 00:34:34:20
you know what I mean? Because it doesn't

00:34:34:20 - 00:34:37:03
It doesn't make any freaking sense,

00:34:37:03 - 00:34:39:01
but these fucking,

00:34:39:01 - 00:34:40:17
you know, people get up on this

00:34:40:17 - 00:34:42:20
stand they say I'm a pediatrician.

00:34:42:20 - 00:34:44:18
I was licensed by this that college,

00:34:44:18 - 00:34:45:22
but I have blah blah

00:34:45:22 - 00:34:46:21
in that medical school.

00:34:46:21 - 00:34:47:23
And people go, Oh, my God,

00:34:47:23 - 00:34:48:17
this guy really knows

00:34:48:17 - 00:34:49:23
what he's talking about.

00:34:49:23 - 00:34:50:21
And the next thing you know,

00:34:50:21 - 00:34:52:01
the jury is like,

00:34:52:01 - 00:34:53:04
and the juries

00:34:53:04 - 00:34:54:08
that most of the jurors

00:34:54:08 - 00:34:55:12
have babies of their own.

00:34:55:12 - 00:34:56:20
And they don't want to believe

00:34:56:20 - 00:34:58:18
that this can happen from natural causes.

00:34:58:18 - 00:34:59:16
Yeah. Yep.

00:34:59:16 - 00:34:59:24
I agree.

00:34:59:24 - 00:35:01:06
And part of the problem is,

00:35:01:06 - 00:35:02:04
Jason is that

00:35:02:04 - 00:35:03:07
the media has

00:35:03:07 - 00:35:05:20
put this whole false image up

00:35:05:20 - 00:35:07:11
about how our system works. Right.

00:35:07:11 - 00:35:08:01
You know,

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:09:08
law and order is like

00:35:09:08 - 00:35:10:09
you see,

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:11:23
prosecutors always protecting

00:35:11:23 - 00:35:12:22
not to say this

00:35:12:22 - 00:35:14:07
Sometimes they do it.

00:35:14:07 - 00:35:15:07
Officers are always protecting.

00:35:15:07 - 00:35:16:05
But what they don't show you

00:35:16:05 - 00:35:17:23
is that sometimes they're just in there

00:35:17:23 - 00:35:18:18
just to check the mark.

00:35:18:18 - 00:35:19:23
Like, let's just get we need

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:21:04
I need a certain amount of convictions

00:35:21:04 - 00:35:22:04
to move up.

00:35:22:04 - 00:35:24:01
And sometimes they don't show you that,

00:35:24:01 - 00:35:24:22
you know,

00:35:25:05 - 00:35:26:02
our our

00:35:26:02 - 00:35:28:09
our police force gets paid more money

00:35:28:15 - 00:35:30:04
just for convictions. It doesn't matter.

00:35:30:04 - 00:35:31:20
if people are guilty. They get money.

00:35:31:20 - 00:35:33:23
We're incentivized to do injustice in our

00:35:34:03 - 00:35:35:24
within our criminal justice system.

00:35:35:24 - 00:35:37:03
And so how we've painted

00:35:37:03 - 00:35:38:17
things are not accurate. Right.

00:35:38:17 - 00:35:40:22
And so people have have this image

00:35:40:22 - 00:35:41:16
that is false

00:35:41:16 - 00:35:42:23
about how things actually work

00:35:42:23 - 00:35:43:14
within our system.

00:35:43:14 - 00:35:44:16
And I think we have to do everything

00:35:44:16 - 00:35:45:02
we can

00:35:45:02 - 00:35:45:24
to make sure

00:35:45:24 - 00:35:46:23
they see reality

00:35:46:23 - 00:35:49:07
as it is not this false narrative

00:35:49:07 - 00:35:51:12
that we've made in the media

00:35:51:12 - 00:35:52:14
that, you know,

00:35:52:14 - 00:35:54:12
all cops or superheroes. No

00:35:54:12 - 00:35:55:13
Some cops are superheroes.

00:35:55:13 - 00:35:57:05
Some cops are really bad people. Right.

00:35:57:05 - 00:35:59:11
And and they do some really bad things

00:35:59:11 - 00:36:00:01
that we have to see.

00:36:00:01 - 00:36:02:00
Cops we have to see prosecutors.

00:36:02:00 - 00:36:02:23
We have to see our system

00:36:02:23 - 00:36:05:12
as it is not how we want it to be.

00:36:05:12 - 00:36:05:18
No.

00:36:05:18 - 00:36:07:10
And the same is true with CSI

00:36:07:10 - 00:36:08:14
and these other shows. Right.

00:36:08:14 - 00:36:10:01
I mean, I think they should do

00:36:10:01 - 00:36:10:23
multiple seasons

00:36:10:23 - 00:36:11:23
of every one of these shows

00:36:11:23 - 00:36:12:19
where they undo

00:36:12:19 - 00:36:14:02
all the wrongful convictions

00:36:14:02 - 00:36:15:09
that they claim were right.

00:36:15:09 - 00:36:17:13
Because it's you're right.

00:36:17:13 - 00:36:18:07
It's giving people

00:36:18:07 - 00:36:19:15
a false sense of security.

00:36:19:15 - 00:36:21:06
I know it's entertainment and I don't I

00:36:21:06 - 00:36:21:18
but I don't know

00:36:21:18 - 00:36:23:04
whether people can separate that.

00:36:23:04 - 00:36:25:13
And I think it does create a narrative.

00:36:25:23 - 00:36:28:11
Look, fortunately, in recent years,

00:36:28:11 - 00:36:30:10
I think people have started to understand

00:36:30:10 - 00:36:33:03
with making a murderer with Serial,

00:36:33:12 - 00:36:36:05
with show me the staircase with my show.

00:36:36:12 - 00:36:38:05
This is the power of podcasting, right?

00:36:38:05 - 00:36:40:01
I tell people this is the power of

00:36:41:00 - 00:36:42:17
of of what I call Web two.

00:36:42:17 - 00:36:43:11
It's it's

00:36:43:11 - 00:36:45:18
democratized to some extent,

00:36:45:18 - 00:36:47:08
voices and media.

00:36:47:08 - 00:36:48:06
And that's that's the power

00:36:48:06 - 00:36:49:02
of what we have right now.

00:36:49:02 - 00:36:51:07
But you know, it's interesting

00:36:51:07 - 00:36:52:16
because I have my phone next to me.

00:36:52:16 - 00:36:53:09
I probably shouldn't.

00:36:53:09 - 00:36:55:11
But, you know, this is my life

00:36:55:11 - 00:36:56:09
as it stands.

00:36:56:09 - 00:36:57:18
You know, I'm getting a call right now

00:36:57:18 - 00:36:58:05
from a guy

00:36:58:05 - 00:36:58:20
who is in prison

00:36:58:20 - 00:36:59:11
in Mississippi

00:36:59:11 - 00:37:02:02
23 years into his sentence,

00:37:02:02 - 00:37:03:22
a guy named Cheron Edwards,

00:37:03:22 - 00:37:04:11
who was sentenced

00:37:04:11 - 00:37:05:18
twice for the same crime,

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:06:24
which doesn't make any sense,

00:37:06:24 - 00:37:08:12
get 20 plus 20.

00:37:08:12 - 00:37:10:14
And he's not he doesn't claim innocence,

00:37:10:14 - 00:37:12:15
but he was sentenced to 20 years in state

00:37:12:15 - 00:37:13:11
and 20 years in federal

00:37:13:11 - 00:37:14:19
for the exact same crime.

00:37:14:19 - 00:37:15:06
Well,

00:37:15:08 - 00:37:18:03
and I got a call from a guy in Sing Sing

00:37:18:14 - 00:37:21:00
just a few minutes ago, Bruce Bryant,

00:37:21:06 - 00:37:22:15
who's as innocent as could be.

00:37:22:15 - 00:37:24:15
And then the only text I have here since

00:37:24:16 - 00:37:26:10
we've been on the air from

00:37:26:10 - 00:37:26:20
someone who

00:37:26:20 - 00:37:27:21
I call my little sister

00:37:27:21 - 00:37:29:23
Amanda Knox is sending me baby pictures,

00:37:29:23 - 00:37:31:02
which is great.

00:37:31:02 - 00:37:32:04
Wow. Really, really.

00:37:32:04 - 00:37:34:09
Amanda Knox, just sent you. Wow.

00:37:34:24 - 00:37:36:08
Yeah. Yeah, she's serious.

00:37:36:08 - 00:37:37:05
She's incredible.

00:37:37:05 - 00:37:38:12
She's one of my favorite human beings.

00:37:38:12 - 00:37:40:16
And her husband, Chris, is just he's

00:37:40:16 - 00:37:41:14
he's awesome, too.

00:37:41:14 - 00:37:42:09
He has a great book

00:37:42:09 - 00:37:43:08
called Deliver US That.

00:37:43:08 - 00:37:45:07
He wrote a novel is funny as fuck.

00:37:45:07 - 00:37:45:20
But anyway,

00:37:46:24 - 00:37:48:05
and the baby's name is Eureka,

00:37:48:05 - 00:37:49:05
but that's beside the point.

00:37:49:05 - 00:37:50:21
So which I understand

00:37:50:21 - 00:37:52:15
that considering what she's been through.

00:37:52:15 - 00:37:53:18
So yeah.

00:37:53:18 - 00:37:54:22
So anyway, so back to Ohio.

00:37:54:22 - 00:37:57:03
so look in Ohio, John Jones

00:37:57:16 - 00:37:59:04
is demonstrably innocent.

00:37:59:04 - 00:38:01:05
He needs to come home now today,

00:38:01:17 - 00:38:03:12
you know, quick, fast in a hurry.

00:38:03:12 - 00:38:05:17
you're right to say, Rob, that the hospital

00:38:06:21 - 00:38:09:02
has refused to release the records.

00:38:09:02 - 00:38:11:03
That could exonerate him very quickly,

00:38:11:03 - 00:38:12:01
I believe,

00:38:12:01 - 00:38:13:08
which would show that the baby

00:38:13:08 - 00:38:15:09
had a previous medical condition

00:38:15:09 - 00:38:16:02
and explain

00:38:16:02 - 00:38:18:06
why this tragic death happened.

00:38:19:06 - 00:38:20:16
Rob, meanwhile, has been separated

00:38:20:16 - 00:38:23:01
from his other two kids all these years

00:38:23:01 - 00:38:25:17
and has been subjected to, you know,

00:38:26:14 - 00:38:27:09
the worst

00:38:27:09 - 00:38:29:12
that our prison systems have to offer.

00:38:30:13 - 00:38:31:14
And

00:38:32:08 - 00:38:35:02
yet he remains optimistic.

00:38:35:02 - 00:38:37:04
He's not angry or bitter

00:38:37:04 - 00:38:39:09
he just wants to have this

00:38:39:09 - 00:38:41:16
this wrong righted.

00:38:41:16 - 00:38:43:18
And then there's others in the system

00:38:43:18 - 00:38:45:04
in Ohio,

00:38:45:04 - 00:38:46:21
Anthony, Apanovitch, again,

00:38:46:21 - 00:38:48:18
Anthony was on my podcast.

00:38:48:18 - 00:38:50:09
Anthony was on death row for

00:38:51:17 - 00:38:52:00
almost

00:38:52:00 - 00:38:54:09
35 years before DNA proved

00:38:54:09 - 00:38:55:17
he was innocent.

00:38:55:17 - 00:38:57:01
And then on a technicality

00:38:57:01 - 00:38:58:23
after 17 months home,

00:38:58:23 - 00:39:00:04
they went and scooped him up

00:39:00:04 - 00:39:01:08
and put him back in

00:39:01:08 - 00:39:02:19
prison on death row,

00:39:02:19 - 00:39:04:10
even though the DNA has proved

00:39:04:10 - 00:39:05:12
he's innocent.

00:39:05:16 - 00:39:07:21
So DNA proved he was innocent.

00:39:08:13 - 00:39:10:16
He came back home

00:39:10:16 - 00:39:12:14
and they sent him back to jail.

00:39:12:14 - 00:39:14:12
For what reason?

00:39:14:23 - 00:39:17:08
So like I'm just say I like it

00:39:17:08 - 00:39:18:22
and I know the story but just.

00:39:18:22 - 00:39:19:15
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:19:15 - 00:39:20:22
If someone's listening

00:39:20:22 - 00:39:22:00
while they're driving right now,

00:39:22:00 - 00:39:23:07
you might want to pull over

00:39:23:07 - 00:39:25:03
because you're going to be like,

00:39:25:03 - 00:39:27:04
if you might not be able to

00:39:27:04 - 00:39:27:14
you know,

00:39:27:14 - 00:39:28:24
you might lose control of the wheel

00:39:28:24 - 00:39:30:04
when you hear this.

00:39:30:04 - 00:39:33:16
So Anthony Apanovitch was convicted

00:39:33:16 - 00:39:35:14
on the flimsiest of evidence

00:39:35:14 - 00:39:38:01
of a horrible, horrible crime.

00:39:38:22 - 00:39:39:10
And

00:39:42:01 - 00:39:42:22
after

00:39:42:22 - 00:39:43:11
over well

00:39:43:11 - 00:39:46:20
over three decades on death row,

00:39:46:20 - 00:39:48:14
the DNA was finally tested.

00:39:48:14 - 00:39:49:09
The DNA,

00:39:49:09 - 00:39:51:09
which the prosecution had insisted

00:39:51:09 - 00:39:52:04
didn't exist.

00:39:52:04 - 00:39:54:02
They said it was lost or whatever it was.

00:39:54:02 - 00:39:55:08
But he you know,

00:39:55:08 - 00:39:57:12
there was there was no DNA, but there was

00:39:58:05 - 00:40:00:13
and I guess under mounting pressure,

00:40:00:13 - 00:40:01:15
somebody

00:40:01:15 - 00:40:04:05
had sent it to a lab to be tested.

00:40:05:02 - 00:40:07:07
It came back and showed that Anthony was,

00:40:07:07 - 00:40:08:04
in fact, innocent,

00:40:08:04 - 00:40:10:17
just as he had said he was all this time

00:40:10:17 - 00:40:11:08
My understanding

00:40:11:08 - 00:40:12:08
is that the prosecution

00:40:12:08 - 00:40:14:00
had withheld that evidence,

00:40:14:00 - 00:40:15:24
but somebody from the lab

00:40:15:24 - 00:40:18:01
leaked it to the defense.

00:40:18:01 - 00:40:20:06
And so the defense filed a motion

00:40:20:06 - 00:40:21:11
the motion was granted

00:40:21:11 - 00:40:24:00
and Anthony was freed

00:40:24:05 - 00:40:25:24
So they said it was improperly filed.

00:40:25:24 - 00:40:27:09
It was improperly received.

00:40:27:09 - 00:40:28:18
That's what they're trying to argue right

00:40:28:18 - 00:40:29:02
here.

00:40:29:02 - 00:40:31:18
Here's the technicality, which I find

00:40:33:04 - 00:40:34:15
stunning.

00:40:34:23 - 00:40:36:07
Which is that

00:40:36:07 - 00:40:39:07
somebody in a position of power

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:41:06
figured out,

00:40:41:06 - 00:40:42:07
because I guess they had nothing

00:40:42:07 - 00:40:44:04
better to do that day.

00:40:44:04 - 00:40:46:05
That under Ohio law,

00:40:46:11 - 00:40:48:07
the only person that can request

00:40:48:07 - 00:40:51:08
the DNA testing is the person who

00:40:51:20 - 00:40:53:01
the prisoner,

00:40:53:01 - 00:40:53:11
the person

00:40:53:11 - 00:40:55:17
who was incarcerated for the crime.

00:40:55:17 - 00:40:57:24
So what they're saying is

00:40:58:11 - 00:41:00:06
Anthony should have requested

00:41:00:06 - 00:41:01:23
the DNA that they had told him

00:41:01:23 - 00:41:03:23
didn't exist.

00:41:04:06 - 00:41:05:22
And had he done that,

00:41:05:22 - 00:41:07:12
then he could remain free.

00:41:07:12 - 00:41:09:11
But since he didn't.

00:41:09:11 - 00:41:11:05
The DNA doesn't count.

00:41:11:05 - 00:41:12:12
It's like it doesn't count.

00:41:12:12 - 00:41:13:01
You know, they're

00:41:13:01 - 00:41:14:12
they're waiving off the touchdown,

00:41:14:12 - 00:41:15:21
you know what I mean, so to speak. Right.

00:41:15:21 - 00:41:16:23
I don't even understand

00:41:16:23 - 00:41:18:09
what they're saying

00:41:18:09 - 00:41:19:12
because he didn't request it

00:41:19:12 - 00:41:21:10
and he should have requested how we know.

00:41:21:10 - 00:41:22:14
So why can't we request it now?

00:41:22:14 - 00:41:23:03
And it's just off

00:41:23:03 - 00:41:24:10
like I don't understand why why?

00:41:24:10 - 00:41:25:14
Why would he still be there?

00:41:25:14 - 00:41:26:17
Yeah, that's a good question.

00:41:26:17 - 00:41:27:20
Now, why he couldn't why

00:41:27:20 - 00:41:29:02
he couldn't just flip that now?

00:41:29:02 - 00:41:29:14
I don't know.

00:41:29:14 - 00:41:30:15
I have to ask his lawyer that.

00:41:30:15 - 00:41:31:16
He's got a very good lawyer

00:41:31:16 - 00:41:32:13
All of this is crazy.

00:41:32:13 - 00:41:33:18
Like, this is just the point is

00:41:33:18 - 00:41:34:14
the man is innocent.

00:41:34:14 - 00:41:35:18
They know he's innocent,

00:41:35:18 - 00:41:36:07
but they're

00:41:36:07 - 00:41:37:06
they're sending back to jail

00:41:37:06 - 00:41:39:07
because we can. That's awful.

00:41:39:22 - 00:41:40:05
Right?

00:41:40:05 - 00:41:41:13
And it's not like he hasn't

00:41:41:13 - 00:41:42:03
suffered enough.

00:41:42:03 - 00:41:43:07
I mean, the man was in prison for,

00:41:43:07 - 00:41:44:15
like I said, about three

00:41:44:15 - 00:41:45:11
and a half decades.

00:41:45:11 - 00:41:46:21
He was home for 17 months.

00:41:46:21 - 00:41:47:19
He's sitting on the lawn

00:41:47:19 - 00:41:49:08
with his grandchildren

00:41:49:08 - 00:41:51:16
and, you know, a squad car

00:41:51:19 - 00:41:52:17
rolls up like that.

00:41:52:17 - 00:41:54:03
He said it was like a dozen cops

00:41:54:03 - 00:41:55:05
or something.

00:41:55:13 - 00:41:57:13
And there's Barry Scheck calling me

00:41:57:13 - 00:41:58:13
from the Innocence Project.

00:41:58:13 - 00:41:59:04
How do you like that?

00:42:00:05 - 00:42:01:04
So, yes.

00:42:01:04 - 00:42:01:21
This is crazy.

00:42:01:21 - 00:42:04:01
This is this is this is justice in Ohio.

00:42:04:01 - 00:42:06:16
This is justice in America. In America.

00:42:06:16 - 00:42:09:00
And it's just it's it's mind blowing.

00:42:09:00 - 00:42:10:05
And I definitely want people

00:42:10:05 - 00:42:10:18
to get involved

00:42:10:18 - 00:42:11:22
with the Ohio Innocence Project.

00:42:11:22 - 00:42:13:05
There's also

00:42:13:05 - 00:42:14:16
the Alliance for Safety and Justice.

00:42:14:16 - 00:42:16:09
There's also

00:42:16:20 - 00:42:18:11
the Ohio Justice and Policy Center.

00:42:18:11 - 00:42:18:21
Of course,

00:42:18:21 - 00:42:20:13
learn about the wrongful conviction.

00:42:20:13 - 00:42:21:04
You heard of these

00:42:21:04 - 00:42:22:08
you heard these cases, John

00:42:22:08 - 00:42:24:02
Jones, Anthony Apanovitch

00:42:24:02 - 00:42:25:22
Kevin Keith, there are many there.

00:42:25:22 - 00:42:26:06
They are

00:42:26:06 - 00:42:27:15
they are the names that we say today.

00:42:27:15 - 00:42:29:10
But there are so many more names

00:42:29:10 - 00:42:30:14
that are in Ohio.

00:42:30:14 - 00:42:31:11
That are in Mississippi,

00:42:31:11 - 00:42:32:09
that are in California,

00:42:32:09 - 00:42:33:07
that are in New York,

00:42:33:07 - 00:42:34:21
that are in the United States of America,

00:42:34:21 - 00:42:36:04
because we decide to run

00:42:36:04 - 00:42:37:05
our criminal justice system

00:42:37:05 - 00:42:38:04
this way,

00:42:38:08 - 00:42:40:02
one that doesn't care about justice

00:42:40:02 - 00:42:41:15
that cares more about numbers

00:42:41:15 - 00:42:42:09
and locking people up.

00:42:42:09 - 00:42:44:15
And it's something we must must change.

00:42:44:15 - 00:42:45:19
I want to get to some other

00:42:45:19 - 00:42:46:11
and we're going to make sure

00:42:46:11 - 00:42:47:19
everyone has links in your bio

00:42:47:19 - 00:42:49:22
to your all three of your podcasts

00:42:50:03 - 00:42:51:11
and all and all these organizations.

00:42:51:11 - 00:42:52:02
So and

00:42:52:02 - 00:42:53:14
and let's not leave out Tyrone

00:42:53:14 - 00:42:54:15
Noling another innocent

00:42:54:15 - 00:42:56:00
man on death row in Ohio.

00:42:56:00 - 00:42:58:11
I mean, Tyrone Noling is

00:42:58:11 - 00:42:59:02
I'm going to say

00:42:59:02 - 00:43:01:22
he's as innocent of this crime as I am.

00:43:01:22 - 00:43:02:10
Okay.

00:43:02:10 - 00:43:04:11
Like, I you know,

00:43:04:11 - 00:43:05:08
I guarantee you,

00:43:05:08 - 00:43:06:14
I wasn't in Ohio at the time,

00:43:06:14 - 00:43:07:23
so don't come after me.

00:43:07:23 - 00:43:09:24
But no, I mean, it's ridiculous.

00:43:09:24 - 00:43:12:07
It's like these people are just

00:43:12:14 - 00:43:14:01
they're just they're on death row.

00:43:14:01 - 00:43:16:00
And we interviewed another guy from Ohio

00:43:16:00 - 00:43:18:00
who actually was freed after

00:43:18:00 - 00:43:20:16
20 something years on death row.

00:43:20:16 - 00:43:21:20
I'll tell you his name

00:43:21:20 - 00:43:23:13
in a minute I'm going to look it up. What?

00:43:23:13 - 00:43:24:24
Okay. Yeah, we'll come back to it.

00:43:24:24 - 00:43:26:05
We'll come back to that and let me know.

00:43:26:05 - 00:43:27:03
We'll wrap.

00:43:27:03 - 00:43:28:00
I want to talk a little bit

00:43:28:00 - 00:43:29:18
about your meeting with

00:43:29:18 - 00:43:30:12
President Clinton.

00:43:30:12 - 00:43:32:06
I think it was interesting

00:43:32:06 - 00:43:33:00
how you met him.

00:43:33:00 - 00:43:33:22
And then I want to also talk

00:43:33:22 - 00:43:35:14
about Kim Kardashian very quickly,

00:43:35:14 - 00:43:36:03
because I know you've

00:43:36:03 - 00:43:37:01
had her on the podcast.

00:43:37:01 - 00:43:39:09
So Bill Clinton

00:43:39:09 - 00:43:40:11
it's got your first interaction

00:43:40:11 - 00:43:41:07
with the president.

00:43:41:07 - 00:43:41:17
How did you

00:43:41:17 - 00:43:42:13
how did you end up meeting

00:43:42:13 - 00:43:44:10
Bill Clinton and and what?

00:43:44:10 - 00:43:45:03
Because, you know,

00:43:46:07 - 00:43:47:19
Bill had played a big role

00:43:47:19 - 00:43:48:22
in a part of this happening.

00:43:48:22 - 00:43:50:18
In terms of some of these laws.

00:43:50:18 - 00:43:51:24
But so you.

00:43:51:24 - 00:43:52:14
So how did

00:43:52:14 - 00:43:53:10
how did you meet with them

00:43:53:10 - 00:43:54:11
and how did that work?

00:43:54:11 - 00:43:55:10
How did that conversation go?

00:43:55:10 - 00:43:56:10
I'm curious.

00:43:57:12 - 00:43:58:14
Well,

00:43:59:00 - 00:44:01:21
it came about because, you know,

00:44:01:23 - 00:44:04:23
when the oh, it was Joe D'Ambrosio,

00:44:04:23 - 00:44:06:07
that's the other guy that we interviewed

00:44:06:07 - 00:44:07:05
who actually fortunately

00:44:07:05 - 00:44:08:04
has been exonerated.

00:44:08:04 - 00:44:10:12
He was he spent

00:44:10:12 - 00:44:11:08
hold on I'm goint to tell you

00:44:11:08 - 00:44:15:03
Now, he was joined those you don't

00:44:15:04 - 00:44:16:14
Joe D'Ambrosio.

00:44:16:14 - 00:44:19:08
Yeah, he was

00:44:20:15 - 00:44:22:00
the listen,

00:44:22:00 - 00:44:22:20
to this description

00:44:22:20 - 00:44:24:17
of the episode from my podcast

00:44:24:17 - 00:44:25:20
19 year old Anthony

00:44:25:20 - 00:44:26:22
Clan was stabbed to death

00:44:26:22 - 00:44:28:22
in Cleveland, Ohio. September of 1988.

00:44:29:11 - 00:44:31:03
Two men who had a lot to gain worked

00:44:31:03 - 00:44:31:21
with detectives

00:44:31:21 - 00:44:33:02
to spin a narrative claiming

00:44:33:02 - 00:44:34:06
two other men, Joe

00:44:34:06 - 00:44:35:13
D'Ambrosio and Michael Keenan

00:44:35:13 - 00:44:36:09
committed the murder

00:44:36:09 - 00:44:38:06
on September 22nd.

00:44:38:06 - 00:44:40:12
However, the victim was very much alive

00:44:40:12 - 00:44:41:13
the following night.

00:44:41:13 - 00:44:44:02
I mean you can't make this shit up anyway

00:44:45:09 - 00:44:46:05
so.

00:44:46:05 - 00:44:48:13
So the meeting with President Clinton

00:44:48:13 - 00:44:51:13
came about because

00:44:52:10 - 00:44:53:04
you know this was

00:44:53:04 - 00:44:56:14
this was during the election

00:44:56:24 - 00:44:59:08
the Gore versus Bush election.

00:44:59:08 - 00:45:01:07
And my dad had been invited

00:45:01:07 - 00:45:03:11
to an event with President Clinton

00:45:03:11 - 00:45:06:14
and he couldn't go so I, I got to go

00:45:06:14 - 00:45:08:01
sort of, you know,

00:45:08:01 - 00:45:09:22
I wangled my way in there

00:45:09:22 - 00:45:10:10
and I managed

00:45:10:10 - 00:45:11:10
to get myself a seat

00:45:11:10 - 00:45:14:08
at the table with President Clinton,

00:45:14:08 - 00:45:16:12
and I got him engaged in a conversation

00:45:16:12 - 00:45:18:16
about the drug laws.

00:45:18:16 - 00:45:21:03
And he said to me, look,

00:45:21:24 - 00:45:23:05
you know, I believe

00:45:23:05 - 00:45:24:16
if somebody breaks the law,

00:45:24:16 - 00:45:25:16
they should go to jail,

00:45:25:16 - 00:45:26:04
but they shouldn't

00:45:26:04 - 00:45:27:01
spend the best years

00:45:27:01 - 00:45:29:02
of their lives there. And I said, yeah.

00:45:29:02 - 00:45:30:13
Sounds like a very good political answer.

00:45:30:13 - 00:45:31:17
Yeah, go ahead.

00:45:33:03 - 00:45:34:16
Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

00:45:34:16 - 00:45:36:01
I said let's talk about your brother.

00:45:36:01 - 00:45:36:09
And he goes,

00:45:36:09 - 00:45:37:04
I know

00:45:37:05 - 00:45:38:05
his brother had been arrested

00:45:38:05 - 00:45:38:22
for cocaine.

00:45:38:22 - 00:45:40:07
Yeah, I know. A year.

00:45:40:07 - 00:45:42:00
A year in like a country club prison.

00:45:42:00 - 00:45:42:24
And then you know,

00:45:42:24 - 00:45:43:21
I said, you know, today

00:45:43:21 - 00:45:45:15
he would have been sentenced to a

00:45:45:15 - 00:45:46:23
hard core facility.

00:45:46:23 - 00:45:47:24
You know, and spent at least eight

00:45:47:24 - 00:45:49:22
years there. And anyway,

00:45:51:09 - 00:45:52:21
I said to him, Mr.

00:45:52:21 - 00:45:54:03
President,

00:45:54:12 - 00:45:55:05
a month ago,

00:45:55:05 - 00:45:58:02
you granted clemency to five people

00:45:59:02 - 00:45:59:21
for serving time.

00:45:59:21 - 00:46:01:02
on these drug crimes

00:46:01:02 - 00:46:02:16
happened to have a personal letter to you

00:46:02:16 - 00:46:03:03
from one of them.

00:46:03:03 - 00:46:04:24
I'd like to give it to you now.

00:46:04:24 - 00:46:06:05
And so I did.

00:46:06:05 - 00:46:06:13
He read

00:46:06:13 - 00:46:07:11
part of it at the table,

00:46:07:11 - 00:46:09:21
put in his pocket, and I said, so, Mr.

00:46:09:21 - 00:46:13:18
President, it was a woman named Amy Pofull

00:46:13:20 - 00:46:16:13
an Arkansas case, but a federal case.

00:46:16:24 - 00:46:18:19
And I said, Mr.

00:46:18:19 - 00:46:19:02
Mr.

00:46:19:02 - 00:46:20:19
President, I know

00:46:20:19 - 00:46:21:22
what you did for these five

00:46:21:22 - 00:46:23:02
people is wonderful.

00:46:23:02 - 00:46:25:03
But I know of hundreds of other cases

00:46:25:14 - 00:46:27:15
just as bad as those.

00:46:27:15 - 00:46:29:15
And he says, You get them to me

00:46:29:15 - 00:46:31:02
and I'll sign them.

00:46:31:02 - 00:46:31:19
And I was like,

00:46:31:19 - 00:46:33:02
Everybody at the table was like,

00:46:33:02 - 00:46:34:15
What the fuck did he just say?

00:46:34:15 - 00:46:36:07
And I was like, What did the fuck did he just say?

00:46:36:07 - 00:46:37:00
Like everybody was like

00:46:37:00 - 00:46:38:07
what the fuck is going on here?

00:46:38:07 - 00:46:39:03
And so

00:46:39:09 - 00:46:40:22
so then I said, the smartest thing.

00:46:40:22 - 00:46:41:14
Maybe I've said

00:46:41:14 - 00:46:43:11
in I don't know,

00:46:43:11 - 00:46:45:04
all my boring days I said, Well, Mr.

00:46:45:04 - 00:46:47:09
President, when you leave here

00:46:47:09 - 00:46:48:02
Tonight.

00:46:48:02 - 00:46:49:00
I don't really know

00:46:49:00 - 00:46:50:13
how to go about doing that.

00:46:50:13 - 00:46:52:17
I how am I going to get a hold of you?

00:46:52:17 - 00:46:54:06
And he says, Well,

00:46:54:06 - 00:46:55:15
he points me in the direction

00:46:55:15 - 00:46:56:17
of one of his aides

00:46:56:17 - 00:46:58:07
who is standing off to the side.

00:46:58:07 - 00:46:59:11
He says, Follow up with him.

00:46:59:11 - 00:47:00:09
He's going to put you in touch

00:47:00:09 - 00:47:01:06
with the chief counsel

00:47:01:06 - 00:47:02:22
in the Justice Department.

00:47:02:22 - 00:47:04:07
You have to file this and that.

00:47:04:07 - 00:47:04:11
I said,

00:47:04:11 - 00:47:05:19
What kind of cases are you willing to

00:47:05:19 - 00:47:06:07
look at?

00:47:08:05 - 00:47:08:24
And he said, Give me

00:47:08:24 - 00:47:09:24
nonviolent first

00:47:09:24 - 00:47:13:10
offenses, people who are already served,

00:47:13:10 - 00:47:15:21
at least, you know, some

00:47:15:21 - 00:47:17:10
period of time at least.

00:47:17:10 - 00:47:18:18
like 5 years or whatever,

00:47:18:18 - 00:47:19:11
he said, I don't remember

00:47:19:11 - 00:47:21:15
exactly it was a long time ago.

00:47:21:15 - 00:47:24:09
And and then I worked with what

00:47:24:17 - 00:47:25:03
I work

00:47:25:03 - 00:47:26:05
with, a wonderful organization

00:47:26:05 - 00:47:26:19
called Families

00:47:26:19 - 00:47:28:03
Against Mandatory Minimums,

00:47:28:03 - 00:47:30:23
which is FAMM famm.org

00:47:31:15 - 00:47:33:23
And so I got together with FAMM

00:47:33:23 - 00:47:36:07
and we compiled a list of cases

00:47:37:11 - 00:47:39:12
federal cases,

00:47:39:12 - 00:47:42:00
people that we wanted to advocate for.

00:47:42:16 - 00:47:43:24
And long story short,

00:47:43:24 - 00:47:45:03
I followed up and followed up

00:47:45:03 - 00:47:47:04
and followed up and kept following up

00:47:48:03 - 00:47:49:21
what it takes with politics.

00:47:49:21 - 00:47:50:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:50:14 - 00:47:52:19
I found every possible person

00:47:52:19 - 00:47:53:09
I could think of.

00:47:53:09 - 00:47:53:23
that could get through

00:47:53:23 - 00:47:56:21
And finally I found the right person. And

00:47:58:13 - 00:47:59:16
ended up getting

00:47:59:16 - 00:48:03:13
17 people clemency combined.

00:48:03:13 - 00:48:05:15
They were serving. I added it up one day.

00:48:05:15 - 00:48:08:18
I think together they had 565

00:48:08:18 - 00:48:11:19
years of prison time left to go.

00:48:11:19 - 00:48:14:19
One woman, Diane Coffman, was serving

00:48:14:19 - 00:48:15:16
a mandatory

00:48:15:16 - 00:48:19:08
sentence of 85 years in Texas.

00:48:19:08 - 00:48:21:22
She was 19 and she was arrested,

00:48:21:22 - 00:48:23:05
so she would have been 104

00:48:23:05 - 00:48:25:18
when she was eligible for parole.

00:48:25:18 - 00:48:27:18
She was freed to 29.

00:48:27:18 - 00:48:29:03
And you know,

00:48:29:03 - 00:48:30:07
and these people have gone on

00:48:30:07 - 00:48:31:09
to do wonderful things.

00:48:31:09 - 00:48:32:03
It's important to note

00:48:32:03 - 00:48:33:19
that none of them have gotten back

00:48:33:19 - 00:48:35:07
and gone back to prison.

00:48:35:07 - 00:48:36:09
I think a couple of a couple of them

00:48:36:09 - 00:48:37:11
are actually innocent.

00:48:37:11 - 00:48:39:22
The rest of them were like Minor, minor,

00:48:39:22 - 00:48:40:18
you know, Kemba

00:48:40:18 - 00:48:42:18
Smith and people like that were minor.

00:48:42:18 - 00:48:44:03
Minor, Serena Yes.

00:48:44:03 - 00:48:44:23
I mean, listen,

00:48:44:23 - 00:48:46:14
even when you commit a crime, you don't

00:48:46:14 - 00:48:47:17
you don't have to audition

00:48:47:17 - 00:48:49:04
for humanity for the rest of your life.

00:48:49:04 - 00:48:50:08
Like, the bottom line is

00:48:50:08 - 00:48:51:24
you were

00:48:51:24 - 00:48:53:15
supposed to be about rehabilitation,

00:48:53:15 - 00:48:55:23
not about separation forever.

00:48:55:23 - 00:48:57:23
That's what that's the most effective

00:48:58:22 - 00:48:59:14
pipeline.

00:48:59:14 - 00:49:01:08
I'm going to steal that.

00:49:01:08 - 00:49:01:23
Yeah.

00:49:02:00 - 00:49:03:00
Thank you I don't even know what I said.

00:49:03:00 - 00:49:04:02
So whatever I said after.

00:49:04:02 - 00:49:05:09
You don't have a audition for humanity,

00:49:05:09 - 00:49:06:14
the rest of your life, that's good.

00:49:06:14 - 00:49:08:02
Oh, that's not mine.

00:49:08:02 - 00:49:09:00
That's actually Shakira

00:49:09:00 - 00:49:10:09
Diaz's

00:49:10:09 - 00:49:11:10
the person with their lives

00:49:11:10 - 00:49:12:04
for safety and justice.

00:49:12:04 - 00:49:13:00
That's where I got it from.

00:49:13:00 - 00:49:15:10
So she's the one you got to quote

00:49:15:24 - 00:49:16:17
the person you met.

00:49:16:17 - 00:49:20:02
So let me just say one thing.

00:49:20:02 - 00:49:20:14
I want to talk about

00:49:20:14 - 00:49:21:14
Kim Kardashian quickly

00:49:21:14 - 00:49:22:10
then I got a couple

00:49:22:10 - 00:49:23:08
of Rapid-Fire questions

00:49:23:08 - 00:49:24:09
that are just quick Rapid Fire.

00:49:24:09 - 00:49:25:21
So you've interviewed

00:49:25:21 - 00:49:27:06
Kim Kardashian on your show

00:49:27:06 - 00:49:28:05
and she's been

00:49:28:05 - 00:49:28:24
you know,

00:49:28:24 - 00:49:29:10
I guess there's

00:49:29:10 - 00:49:31:08
this Love-Hate relationship with a person

00:49:31:08 - 00:49:32:10
that's like Kim Kardashian.

00:49:32:10 - 00:49:34:08
But I think there's no doubt

00:49:34:08 - 00:49:34:16
she's done

00:49:34:16 - 00:49:36:14
a lot for criminal justice reform.

00:49:36:14 - 00:49:37:13
Tell me about

00:49:37:13 - 00:49:38:07
tell me about how

00:49:38:07 - 00:49:39:14
that podcast interview went

00:49:39:14 - 00:49:41:18
and what might surprise people

00:49:41:18 - 00:49:42:21
about Kim Kardashian

00:49:45:08 - 00:49:46:06
Well.

00:49:46:14 - 00:49:49:08
First of all, I have nothing

00:49:49:08 - 00:49:51:15
but good things to say about her.

00:49:52:23 - 00:49:55:01
She's been on my show

00:49:55:01 - 00:49:57:23
twice or three times now.

00:49:57:23 - 00:50:00:08
One time I just interviewed her at a time

00:50:00:08 - 00:50:01:03
when she had,

00:50:01:03 - 00:50:02:02
you know, recently

00:50:02:02 - 00:50:04:08
dived headlong into this arena.

00:50:06:06 - 00:50:09:03
She showed up on time with no entourage,

00:50:09:03 - 00:50:13:11
no drama whatsoever, was informed

00:50:14:13 - 00:50:17:10
was focused

00:50:17:18 - 00:50:20:02
and was just,

00:50:20:02 - 00:50:22:18
you know, dynamite to to work

00:50:22:18 - 00:50:25:07
with And, you know,

00:50:26:08 - 00:50:28:11
the second time we

00:50:28:11 - 00:50:30:12
you know, I had

00:50:31:15 - 00:50:32:17
I had gotten my friend

00:50:32:17 - 00:50:34:03
Scott Rudnick

00:50:34:03 - 00:50:35:21
involved in the Julius Jones case.

00:50:35:21 - 00:50:37:10
And Scott reached out to Kim,

00:50:37:10 - 00:50:39:16
and Kim got deeply involved in Julius

00:50:39:16 - 00:50:40:00
this case.

00:50:40:00 - 00:50:41:18
I mean, more so than anybody realized.

00:50:41:18 - 00:50:43:20
So I think that there's

00:50:46:06 - 00:50:47:01
I think that

00:50:47:01 - 00:50:49:20
that she has a tremendous

00:50:50:06 - 00:50:51:22
played a tremendous role in helping

00:50:51:22 - 00:50:53:13
to prevent his execution. Yes.

00:50:53:13 - 00:50:55:05
She works with Sean Holley a lot, too.

00:50:55:05 - 00:50:55:12
And though

00:50:55:12 - 00:50:57:00
Sean Holley has been on the show to

00:50:57:00 - 00:50:57:19
one of our attorneys.

00:50:58:23 - 00:51:00:00
I don't know, Sean, but I should.

00:51:00:00 - 00:51:00:20
But anyway.

00:51:00:20 - 00:51:01:17
Just one of her attorneys

00:51:01:17 - 00:51:03:18
that's helped her through that case.

00:51:03:22 - 00:51:04:05
Yeah,

00:51:04:14 - 00:51:05:10
I don't know if it was that case

00:51:05:10 - 00:51:06:02
but helped her do others.

00:51:06:02 - 00:51:07:02
I'll talk to you about that in a minute.

00:51:07:02 - 00:51:07:18
Go ahead.

00:51:08:16 - 00:51:10:17
I mean, Kim went and visited

00:51:10:17 - 00:51:11:15
Julius in prison

00:51:11:15 - 00:51:14:05
and she went and sat with the governor

00:51:14:05 - 00:51:16:14
at his home, had dinner with his family.

00:51:16:14 - 00:51:18:03
And that's just the beginning of what.

00:51:18:03 - 00:51:19:04
Wow. Yes.

00:51:19:04 - 00:51:22:08
And she has been just a you know,

00:51:22:20 - 00:51:25:04
I mean, look this work.

00:51:25:18 - 00:51:28:12
As you know, once you start on it

00:51:29:02 - 00:51:31:00
and once you you know, she,

00:51:31:00 - 00:51:34:03
like I did, was successful on her first

00:51:34:21 - 00:51:37:18
very first case, that fabulous woman

00:51:37:18 - 00:51:39:23
that she was able to get

00:51:39:23 - 00:51:41:24
the

00:51:43:03 - 00:51:43:16
talk guy

00:51:43:16 - 00:51:45:05
we used to call a president

00:51:45:05 - 00:51:46:21
whose name I won't mention because.

00:51:46:21 - 00:51:47:05
Yeah, okay.

00:51:47:05 - 00:51:47:20
I did okay.

00:51:47:20 - 00:51:49:06
The president was formerly president

00:51:49:06 - 00:51:50:03
yeah there we go

00:51:50:03 - 00:51:51:14
The evil orange clown.

00:51:51:14 - 00:51:54:08
I mean, she managed to get him to.

00:51:54:08 - 00:51:55:12
And she took a lot of slack for that.

00:51:55:12 - 00:51:57:04
I remember Sean showed

00:51:57:04 - 00:51:58:12
the point I was going to make with her lawyer.

00:51:58:12 - 00:51:59:10
Sean showed up

00:51:59:10 - 00:51:59:24
that helped with that

00:51:59:24 - 00:52:00:20
case, showed up with her

00:52:00:20 - 00:52:02:06
to the White House.

00:52:02:19 - 00:52:03:14
When they did that.

00:52:03:14 - 00:52:04:14
And everyone was like,

00:52:04:14 - 00:52:06:03
try to give her slack.

00:52:06:03 - 00:52:07:00
But I just tell people

00:52:07:00 - 00:52:08:18
at the end of the day, listen,

00:52:08:18 - 00:52:10:00
she got somebody out of jail

00:52:10:00 - 00:52:11:19
that didn't belong in jail.

00:52:11:19 - 00:52:13:10
Everything else is bullshit.

00:52:13:10 - 00:52:15:24
It doesn't really matter if she had to go

00:52:15:24 - 00:52:17:14
to the White House to do it, like,

00:52:17:14 - 00:52:19:00
you know, that's fine.

00:52:19:00 - 00:52:19:18
As long as people

00:52:19:18 - 00:52:20:17
as long as we're serving

00:52:20:17 - 00:52:22:15
our purpose, period.

00:52:22:15 - 00:52:24:11
The woman's name was Alice Maria Jones.

00:52:24:11 - 00:52:25:04
I had the privilege

00:52:25:04 - 00:52:27:09
of giving a speech with her in Colorado.

00:52:27:10 - 00:52:29:22
She's a fabulous woman, you know,

00:52:30:13 - 00:52:32:17
and, you know, and Kim

00:52:32:17 - 00:52:33:15
Kim brought her home.

00:52:33:15 - 00:52:37:12
And so, you know, look, I think we need

00:52:37:12 - 00:52:40:16
to, you know, salute her efforts

00:52:41:13 - 00:52:42:12
I don't really care

00:52:42:12 - 00:52:43:21
what anybody thinks about

00:52:43:21 - 00:52:45:06
what else she does with her life.

00:52:45:06 - 00:52:47:19
It's of no, you know, it's you know.

00:52:48:03 - 00:52:50:24
If she uses our privilege to help people

00:52:51:04 - 00:52:52:07
and I tell that

00:52:52:07 - 00:52:53:19
everybody has some sort of privilege,

00:52:53:19 - 00:52:54:19
a lot of people do.

00:52:54:19 - 00:52:56:04
And it's something that you have.

00:52:56:04 - 00:52:56:14
And when we

00:52:56:14 - 00:52:58:05
when we talk about privilege,

00:52:58:05 - 00:52:59:13
it's often talked about in

00:52:59:13 - 00:53:01:00
the most negative way

00:53:01:00 - 00:53:01:20
is white privilege,

00:53:01:20 - 00:53:03:24
there's male privilege, so on and so forth.

00:53:03:24 - 00:53:04:15
But at the end of day, it's

00:53:04:15 - 00:53:05:10
something you have

00:53:05:10 - 00:53:06:19
and it's what you choose to do with it.

00:53:06:19 - 00:53:08:14
You can choose to help people

00:53:08:14 - 00:53:09:23
or you can choose to

00:53:11:15 - 00:53:12:13
hurt people,

00:53:12:13 - 00:53:13:22
or you can try to ignore it

00:53:13:22 - 00:53:14:19
that you have it and pretend

00:53:14:19 - 00:53:15:19
like it doesn't exist,

00:53:15:19 - 00:53:18:00
which is also a way of

00:53:18:00 - 00:53:18:17
causing harm.

00:53:18:17 - 00:53:19:23
But if you're using your privilege

00:53:19:23 - 00:53:20:19
to move things forward, that's

00:53:20:19 - 00:53:21:16
the greatest thing you can do.

00:53:21:16 - 00:53:23:21
So I look at I salute her as well.

00:53:23:21 - 00:53:25:01
And at the end of the day,

00:53:25:01 - 00:53:26:03
lots of people

00:53:26:03 - 00:53:27:03
who have privilege don't

00:53:27:03 - 00:53:28:00
do much of anything.

00:53:28:00 - 00:53:29:11
It's about what you do with the with

00:53:29:11 - 00:53:30:09
with the capacity

00:53:30:09 - 00:53:32:02
and the things you've been

00:53:32:02 - 00:53:33:14
blessed to have in your life. Okay.

00:53:33:14 - 00:53:34:21
Two final a quick questions,

00:53:34:21 - 00:53:36:16
just quick responses.

00:53:36:18 - 00:53:38:08
What's an important conviction?

00:53:38:08 - 00:53:39:21
You have or truth

00:53:39:21 - 00:53:42:11
that very few people agree with you on?

00:53:42:11 - 00:53:43:00
Hmm.

00:53:44:07 - 00:53:45:06
Well,

00:53:45:19 - 00:53:49:02
I believe that we should

00:53:52:14 - 00:53:52:24
Hmm.

00:53:53:07 - 00:53:54:04
I got a couple,

00:53:54:04 - 00:53:55:21
but I guess the one I'll focus on

00:53:55:21 - 00:53:56:20
because it's on point

00:53:56:20 - 00:53:58:04
with what we're talking about is

00:53:58:04 - 00:53:59:09
I believe that we should

00:54:00:21 - 00:54:03:13
not abolish prisons, but that we should

00:54:04:14 - 00:54:05:06
release.

00:54:05:06 - 00:54:06:18
And I believe we could do this safely

00:54:06:18 - 00:54:08:11
between 80 and 90% of the people

00:54:08:11 - 00:54:10:20
that are in prison right now. Yep.

00:54:10:20 - 00:54:12:09
And, and that we should,

00:54:12:09 - 00:54:14:11
we should devote those resources to

00:54:15:16 - 00:54:17:05
things that actually matter

00:54:17:05 - 00:54:19:05
and things that are proven to work

00:54:19:05 - 00:54:20:15
to improve public safety

00:54:20:15 - 00:54:23:14
and to uplift people instead of

00:54:24:23 - 00:54:26:20
just, we're just squashing them.

00:54:26:20 - 00:54:28:09
And that means

00:54:28:09 - 00:54:30:03
everything from fixing the streetlights

00:54:30:03 - 00:54:33:24
in the ghettos

00:54:33:24 - 00:54:36:01
to improving mental health,

00:54:36:01 - 00:54:38:04
childhood education,

00:54:38:04 - 00:54:40:06
you know, picking up the garbage,

00:54:40:06 - 00:54:41:03
like everything

00:54:41:03 - 00:54:43:09
that we know actually works

00:54:44:04 - 00:54:45:18
that's what we should be doing

00:54:45:18 - 00:54:46:21
and we should

00:54:46:21 - 00:54:48:02
and with that amount of money

00:54:48:02 - 00:54:48:21
that we would save.

00:54:48:21 - 00:54:49:17
But we currently spend

00:54:49:17 - 00:54:51:16
almost $300 billion

00:54:51:16 - 00:54:53:21
a year on police and prisons

00:54:53:21 - 00:54:56:17
and you know, police are not the answer

00:54:56:17 - 00:54:58:05
and prisons are not the answer.

00:54:58:05 - 00:54:59:21
And they go together.

00:54:59:21 - 00:55:02:13
And I think an extension of that

00:55:02:13 - 00:55:03:23
is that we should be

00:55:06:03 - 00:55:06:15
we should

00:55:06:15 - 00:55:08:20
be taking the emphasis

00:55:10:12 - 00:55:13:12
that we should be debunking this myth

00:55:13:12 - 00:55:15:14
that police are that.

00:55:16:19 - 00:55:19:00
I would just say this police equate

00:55:20:15 - 00:55:23:22
to too many people believe the police

00:55:24:19 - 00:55:26:04
provide public safety

00:55:26:04 - 00:55:29:05
when in fact they do not prevent crimes.

00:55:29:05 - 00:55:31:05
They show up after the crime happened.

00:55:31:05 - 00:55:33:13
And in too many cases they make it worse.

00:55:33:24 - 00:55:37:08
And they do that in a variety of ways.

00:55:37:19 - 00:55:39:14
It's all on full display right now.

00:55:39:14 - 00:55:40:03
The latest,

00:55:40:03 - 00:55:44:10
the Amir Locke video is so troubling

00:55:45:19 - 00:55:48:20
but it's just one of countless incidents.

00:55:48:20 - 00:55:50:22
And we hear about the ones

00:55:50:22 - 00:55:51:07
that are murder.

00:55:51:07 - 00:55:51:24
We don't hear about

00:55:51:24 - 00:55:53:00
all the people that are beaten,

00:55:53:00 - 00:55:53:16
that are maimed,

00:55:53:16 - 00:55:56:22
that are pepper spray that are put into,

00:55:57:12 - 00:55:58:23
you know,

00:55:58:23 - 00:56:00:06
stretchers or wheelchairs

00:56:00:06 - 00:56:01:06
or anything else.

00:56:01:06 - 00:56:03:22
By as a result of police violence,

00:56:04:08 - 00:56:04:18
you know,

00:56:05:19 - 00:56:07:13
the job of police is violence.

00:56:07:13 - 00:56:08:24
And the fact that we use them for

00:56:08:24 - 00:56:12:08
traffic stops and mental health and,

00:56:12:09 - 00:56:14:05
you know, they're not trained

00:56:14:05 - 00:56:16:03
for any of these encounters.

00:56:16:03 - 00:56:18:10
So the results are predictable.

00:56:18:10 - 00:56:18:24
I mean,

00:56:18:24 - 00:56:21:01
and so I think that we you know,

00:56:21:06 - 00:56:22:20
that's you know,

00:56:22:20 - 00:56:24:19
so that's I'd say with my conviction

00:56:24:19 - 00:56:26:20
is that that may be

00:56:26:21 - 00:56:27:24
surprising.

00:56:28:01 - 00:56:28:17
That's a good one.

00:56:28:17 - 00:56:29:01
All right.

00:56:29:01 - 00:56:29:16
Final one.

00:56:29:16 - 00:56:30:08
Very quickly,

00:56:30:08 - 00:56:32:10
what's a motto you have in life,

00:56:32:10 - 00:56:33:09
a Google slogan?

00:56:33:09 - 00:56:34:11
And why

00:56:34:23 - 00:56:36:17
or Google Ads slogan, life, whatever.

00:56:36:17 - 00:56:38:02
This is your billboard.

00:56:38:02 - 00:56:39:17
What does this say and why.

00:56:43:08 - 00:56:45:01
I mean, one would certainly be

00:56:45:01 - 00:56:45:22
if you can help.

00:56:45:22 - 00:56:47:21
Help and you can always help.

00:56:47:21 - 00:56:49:02
And there you go.

00:56:49:04 - 00:56:49:24
I mean, that

00:56:49:24 - 00:56:51:15
I think that's that's a good one.

00:56:51:15 - 00:56:53:07
I mean, look, on my Instagram

00:56:53:07 - 00:56:54:06
in the morning,

00:56:55:20 - 00:56:57:01
you know, I do often do what

00:56:57:01 - 00:56:58:11
I call the weather report.

00:56:58:11 - 00:56:59:22
And my Instagram

00:56:59:22 - 00:57:02:05
is it's JasonFlom Instagram and TikTok.

00:57:02:05 - 00:57:04:18
It's ItsJasonFlom

00:57:04:18 - 00:57:05:20
If you want to follow me, great.

00:57:05:20 - 00:57:07:04
But more importantly, subscribe

00:57:07:04 - 00:57:08:21
to the podcast Wrongful Conviction

00:57:08:21 - 00:57:10:04
on Apple or Spotify,

00:57:10:04 - 00:57:11:13
wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:57:11:13 - 00:57:12:15
But the only other one I'll leave

00:57:12:15 - 00:57:12:22
you with

00:57:12:22 - 00:57:14:07
is that I often say on my morning

00:57:14:07 - 00:57:15:07
weather forecast,

00:57:15:07 - 00:57:16:04
I'll say something like,

00:57:16:04 - 00:57:18:07
today's forecast is

00:57:19:04 - 00:57:21:03
no, today's a good day

00:57:21:03 - 00:57:22:14
to do something good for someone

00:57:22:14 - 00:57:24:08
while expecting nothing in return.

00:57:24:08 - 00:57:25:23
I think that's a motto

00:57:25:23 - 00:57:27:08
we can all live by.

00:57:27:08 - 00:57:28:16
Jason Flom

00:57:28:16 - 00:57:29:22
founder of Wrongful

00:57:29:22 - 00:57:32:00
Wrongfully Convicted Podcast

00:57:32:01 - 00:57:33:02
Wrongful Conviction.

00:57:33:02 - 00:57:34:13
Wrongful Conviction,

00:57:34:13 - 00:57:35:09
Wrongful Conviction

00:57:35:09 - 00:57:37:07
Podcast, False Confession

00:57:37:07 - 00:57:39:17
Podcast and Righteous Conviction Podcast.

00:57:39:17 - 00:57:41:02
Those three

00:57:41:02 - 00:57:42:15
and I'm sure they'll be another one.

00:57:42:15 - 00:57:43:22
Jason don't make yourself a stranger.

00:57:43:22 - 00:57:44:16
Appreciate you coming on.