“You know, I had a gentleman come to me during a tour that I was giving at my gallery and he was just kind of, “Okay. But how do I live with this image?” And I was like, “What do you mean the way that you live with any other image?” I said, “Would it be such a problem if the [indiscernible - 00:16] were a white woman?” But in this case, it was a black woman. He's like, “Well it doesn't look like anyone in our circle or in our family” and things. But they had a hard time wanting to hang a piece of work.”

KARLA
So how did you talk him through that?

ROB
Well I said, “What if I asked you that about the Mona Lisa? Is that any less significant or important a piece of work” -- because she's a white woman, I assume, you know.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I don't exactly identify with being white but I would have no problem hanging the Mona Lisa in my home.

ROB
Sure.” -- Rob Richardson with Karla Ferguson

ROB
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. It's an honor to have Karla Ferguson here on the show. She is CEO and founder of the Yeelen Group and she specializes in fine arts and high-value items. We’re going to learn more about that. But she really says she's an “art activist.” I want to hear what that means. -- Karla, good to have you on the show.

KARLA
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

ROB
What is an art activist?

KARLA
Well I’m a storyteller.

ROB
Okay.

KARLA
So I tell stories and I try to promote ideas and thoughts. I tell stories that have been marginalized throughout the centuries in art. I tell stories about women, about the LGBT community, stories about black people, stories about our political landscape, socio-economic issues and I force people to really take a look at society and their role in upholding certain norms. That's really my thing.

ROB
Well that's a good fit for the show. If you know, Disruption Now is all about disrupting common narratives and constructs particularly around people of color and the marginalized so you're a perfect fit for the show. So go on. That's why I’m glad you came on.

I want to talk about your path. You weren't always this art curator and art activist. You are an attorney. Is that right?

KARLA
I am an attorney. I’m licensed and all of that good stuff. That really was out of necessity, I would say. I’m an immigrant -- Jamaican background.

ROB
I got some Jamaican in me, too, yeah.

KARLA
See? And you know you don't say to your Jamaican parents, “Hey, I’m going to go to art school.”

ROB
They’re like, “What is it? What do you mean art school?”

KARLA
“What are you going to do exactly?” Oh my god.

ROB
Like, “How are you going to eat?”

KARLA
“How are you going to eat?” So I would take a lot of art classes. I did all my art histories and studio practice -- everything. And eventually, I said to myself, “Okay, well it's time to kind of…

ROB
Get serious.

KARLA
…get serious and please the parents,” in a sense.

I pursued a degree in political science and international relations and from there, I went to law school at Tulane which was a great thing for what I do now because Tulane is actually a big school if you want to be an agent -- but generally, a sports agent or entertainment. So what I decided to do is blend art and the law and become an agent for art.

ROB
An agent of art. That's awesome.

KARLA
Exactly.

ROB
I want to talk about how… Initially, it was probably difficult because I think for a lot of people, it's hard to get outside of the expectations of what others believe you should do.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
I’m sure when you first entered into the art space, you had your parents or whoever probably said, “Why are you going to do that when you have a safe, secure path to be an attorney? You can just be moderately miserable all your life.” They won’t say it that way but that's probably how you felt. So how did you go about rejecting the outside influence of how others thought you should be or the path they said you should go on?

KARLA
Well since birth, I’ve always been a rebel. So, you know, the idea was to be a rebel with a cause. My parents actually were pretty easygoing. They just kind of watched and said, “You know what? She always seems to land on her feet so we're just going to let her just do what she's doing.”

Now it was more to prove to my social circles, society people around me that this was feasible and the only way to do that was to actually do the work and to show them the finished product.

So I produced shows and I would invite as many people as I knew. I started with just friends and family and anyone that was willing to listen and they would show up. They would instantly connect with what it was that I was trying to deliver -- the messages -- and they would support by buying the work, allowing me to fund more shows and to continue growing in the space. And I’ve been doing that now for over 12 years

ROB
Wow.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
You have the moments of impostor syndrome or of doubt?

KARLA
You know what? I have that just about every day because no two days are the same. No two questions… It's always different, you know. Every day, you're meeting new artists or new ideas so you can never say, “Oh I’m an expert at this” because it’s constantly changing.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
And I think that also as a woman, we're always the slowest to accept that we happen to be experts in a particular thing. You know, men go in there with confidence. “I can do this. This is who I am.“

ROB
Yes. Sometimes too much. Go ahead.

KARLA
Exactly. Right?

ROB
Yeah. “I don't know anything.” But they said, “Now people, give him the world.” They said, “He sounds like he believes it.”

KARLA
Absolutely. But women, we’re kind of like constantly needing to prove ourselves.

ROB
Right

KARLA
We're always faced with that glass ceiling.
ROB
So how did you get over that? In particular, I’d like to hear about a particular doubt or something that maybe shook you for a minute. And talk about how you got past that because people view entrepreneurs, once they're successful, they only see the success. They're like, “Okay, yeah, they just got up there. Maybe they have some opportunities.” And opportunities is a part of it but it's not the only journey. There is the other part where there are obstacles.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
Talk about the obstacles, the failures -- whatever you want to say -- and whatever one might stick out too, if you want to stick out in your mind when you met an obstacle you didn't expect and then you had to figure out how to adjust and maneuver or get through that obstacle.

KARLA
I would say that I sometimes can be a bit introverted and shy and so going out and introducing myself to new people can be a bit nerve-racking. And I remember when I first moved back to Miami… I grew up here but then I left for university and all that kind of stuff. And I moved to France and then I came back after quite a number of years. So it was almost like an entire new city.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I didn't really know that many people anymore. And the kind of work that I was doing, I really didn't know anyone. So one of my first things was to say, “Okay, I’m going to go and join the museum and meet like-minded people that are involved in the arts.” And I just remember walking to that first event and thinking to myself, “Oh my goodness.” Like, “I don't look like any of these people.”

ROB
Right.

KARLA
You know, age-wise, color wise. There were so many things that were completely different from the people that were in front of me. And I just remember saying, “Okay, just smile and just be yourself.” I said, “What's the worst they can do -- just hate me,” you know. But I’ll still keep going.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
Also, I think just my basic background is just… Someone like me always has to fight.

ROB
Right. Explain.

KARLA
You know, you’re not going to be instantly accepted.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I’m a black woman, you know. I show up for orientation at law school and I was asked by various types of staff members like even cleaning people, “Oh maybe you're looking for that direction.” Like, “Are you really coming to this law school?

ROB
Right.

KARLA
And the law school that I attended, it was only integrated maybe two generations prior. So they didn't have a lot of people of color or women of colors, especially. So being there and in the south… This was in Louisiana. It was just not that typical thing to see someone like me walking in and saying, “Oh I’m from this little island, Jamaica.” You know, I got crazy questions thrown at me.

ROB
What's the craziest you can remember?

KARLA
They asked me what we wear in Jamaica.

ROB
What did you say? [Laughter] What did you say?

KARLA
I was like, “You know, the coconuts and bikini.” [Laughter]

ROB
“We don’t wear clothes in Jamaica.” What kind of question is that?
KARLA
Yeah. I have no idea, you know. But in Louisian--

ROB
You get the hair question, too?

KARLA
Oh the hair question.

ROB
“Can I touch your hair?”

KARLA
“Can I touch your hair?”

ROB
It’s like, “Don’t even ask,” right? “Just touch the hair.”

KARLA
Yeah. “Where's this hair come from?” I was like, “Right out of my head.” [Laughter] Okay, my background as a Caribbean Islander, it's very mixed. We have a lot of cultures on that one little island and people were mixing. So I don't maybe look like what they envision when they think of a black woman, right?

ROB
Sure.

KARLA
But Louisiana was a little different because you got that Creole culture there and so they were kind of more, “Oh yeah, she's like us” kind of thing. But those kind of things were challenging. Going to law school was challenging. I didn't know what to expect.

ROB
Yeah, law school was challenging. We can talk to that. Yeah, that wasn't… yeah.

KARLA
That was not easy. I mean that first day, I showed up to Torts and I was like, “What did I get myself into?” The room was huge.

ROB
Yeah. Nearly everybody that does law school says that.

KARLA
Yeah.
ROB
And the rougher part… How long were you an attorney?

KARLA
Well I never stopped being one since I finished. I’ve always just kept the license going.

ROB
But you don't practice and bill hours and none of that.

KARLA
No, no, no. No, not in the classic sense.

ROB
So how long were you in the trenches and doing that work? Let me just speak from my experience very quickly. It sounds like we have a similar one.

KARLA
Mm-hmm.

ROB
So I was fired from my first big firm job and it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I hated the job. I love the money. Money was good, right?

KARLA
Mm-hmm.

ROB
It was the most money I've ever seen in my life. It was the first job I had out at college. But I was so miserable. I mean it was miserable for so many reasons. And then I looked up and saw that all the partners were miserable, too.

So the path that I was going to be on, if I was successful, was to have more money and be miserable. I said, “This can't be the only path to success.” So thank God, I’m able to do things that I’m actually passionate about.

So was there something that forced you to actually take this leap? Was there some type of transition in your life that that said, “Okay, this is the time to do it. You do it now.” I mean was there anything personally, professionally that said… Because for me, that was part of the thing. I said, “Okay, well I need to figure out, do something.”

KARLA
You know what? There was. During law school, I worked for the Innocence Project.

ROB
Oh wow.

KARLA
And I was with them for about two years… two and a half years, something like that. And that time that I was there, we actually were able to release two men who had served I think 30 years. And when I saw exactly what we went through just to secure their release based on innocence and there was actual evidence of the innocence… But in the state of Louisiana, they had some kind of crazy law. I’m not sure if it's still there.

ROB
Still might be. Louisiana is challenging.

KARLA
Correct. And it was this kind of--

ROB
So is Florida by the way, in some ways. Go ahead.

KARLA
The south -- between the sixes, you know.

ROB
Yes.

KARLA
But the rule was you have to prove innocence in order to petition your case to have the DNA tested to show that you--

ROB
Wait. Wait. So before you can test the DNA, you have to prove innocence. How do you do that?

KARLA
[Laughter] Thank you. That’s exactly--

ROB
That's what the DNA is supposed to do.

KARLA
That's the point.

ROB
That's the point of science.
KARLA
Exactly.

ROB
Wow.

KARLA
So I was like, “Okay, I’m up against a system that is designed for you to fail.”

ROB
Correct.

KARLA
Right? And during my time at Innocence Project, I wrote a handbook in order to give to various prisoners at Angola so that they could use it and kind of be their own jailhouse lawyer because--

ROB
Oh wow.

KARLA
Okay, we worked on a shoestring budget. It's not the Innocence Project that we know today. And I’m not saying they have more money but they're more recognized.

ROB
They have more money than they had then when they were first starting.

KARLA
Yes. Yes, for sure. So we would have to give them these kind of information on “How to” step-by-step if they want to try and preserve evidence -- you know, things like that. And I just remember thinking, “This system is completely upside-down.” Once you're in the system, it is extremely difficult to get out.

ROB
No. The system tries to keep you there.

KARLA
It is designed to you. There's no rehabilitation. It's strictly punishment. “Throw away the key.” You're there.

ROB
And monetization [off of - 13:28] the person.

KARLA
Absolutely. It’s labor.

ROB
People don’t understand that. Absolutely, it is. It’s a way to keep exploiting and taking money from the poor.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
You know, anyone who has either been incarcerated or had a loved one incarcerated knows the ridiculous cost you have to pay.

KARLA
Yes. And then you have to prove you're indigent to be able to even get paper to write, you know. And half the time, you're not very literate -- some of the people that are incarcerated. And there's just no chance that they're getting out based on what's available.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I just remember with all of that when I graduated and thinking, “This can't be the way to fix this. It's too slow.” I can do one case, two cases. Maybe we can release or exonerate one or two people in 10 years but there's got to be a better way. And that's really when the idea came to me to put a spotlight on the system.

So I started creating exhibitions around police brutality, around wrongful incarceration, wrongful conviction, around the idea that once you are in the system. And if you do happen to get out, good luck being able to feed yourself after.

ROB
Absolutely.

KARLA
Right? The system keeps you there. You go to apply for a job, the first thing they're going to ask you, “Have you ever been convicted of a crime?” Once they see that, you're finished.

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
Right?

ROB
Can you think of any story in particular that moved you during that time? Like the particulars of that, like someone who was going through a hard time with the criminal justice system and what really moved you?

KARLA
Yeah. I mean there was a client of ours and I remember when he was released. You know, life was so difficult on the outside after having been locked up that he was trying to do anything to get locked up again and he was originally innocent.

ROB
Wow.

KARLA
But he didn't know how to function. He was tried as an adult. So he's been incarcerated since he was, what, 17. He comes out, he's in his 40s. He doesn't know what to do.

ROB
Sure.

KARLA
He's missed everything.

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And for him, the safety was he knew prison.

ROB
He knew prison. He knew how to operate it.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
He's in this world. He doesn't even understand.

KARLA
Mm-hmm, and wanted to go back.

ROB
Yeah. And you had a world that has no empathy for your situation.

KARLA
No. Zero empathy. I remember when they released the two gentlemen, the clothes that they released them in or whatever they found, one guy had a shirt that was like a mid-drift and the pants were falling off. And I think they gave him like bus fare.

ROB
Yeah. Like, “Sorry, we locked you up and you weren't actually guilty of the crime you committed.”

KARLA
Mm-hmm, yeah. And it was barely bus fare that would get him home and a garbage bag with whatever other belongings he had managed to accumulate.

ROB
And you talk about those stories in your art.

KARLA
I do. I do.

ROB
And you actually have artists that depict that journey?

KARLA
Yes. And that was the interesting part, actually, with what I was doing because there are quite a few artists that do depict those stories but they don't get museum shows.

ROB
They don't get museum shows.

KARLA
They don't get gallery shows.

ROB
And that's something we talked about. So you’re a curator but you didn't go through a path of having to go through to a museum to being accepted by those “institutional players.”

KARLA
Absolutely not.

ROB
You just created your own path.

KARLA
Mm-hmm.

ROB
Talk to people about how, if they wanted to create their own path as a curator in art, particularly being a person of color, what would be the advice you would give them? What are the top two or three things they should do?

KARLA
Well for one, if you want to talk about art and show art, you need to secure a space, you know.

ROB
Okay.

KARLA
Here in Miami, a lot of groups have been fortunate. I was fortunate that I had my own space.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
Right? But a lot of groups have been fortunate enough to team up sometimes with various developers and property owners and take empty spaces and hang an entire show. And that works really well for them.

But also, you have to fine-tune your story. Like, what is it that you're trying to add to the art world? What is it that needs to be said?

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I’m constantly challenging the status quo. So if it's the black figure in art, which is historically kind of been on the sidelines and not really held up in fine art, part of my thing was to be able to depict black people on these canvases.

At the time that I started curating the shows, I noticed that a lot of shows that would include black painters were actually abstract. So you'd have these geometric patterns, the audience would look at it and they couldn't tell that it was done by a person of color.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
Right? You couldn't feel any of that.

ROB
And that was probably intentional.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
Because sometimes people will make an assumption because of who you are. I interviewed Chauncey Mayfield and he talked about going into business and he built up $250 million in assets before people even knew he was black because people made the assumption… or wouldn't give him the opportunity because he was black. So I imagine that was part of the artist’s point of view and why they did that.

KARLA
Yes. And they were able to hide their identity and have the work speak for itself.

ROB
But you did the opposite.

KARLA
I did the opposite.

ROB
You did the opposite.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
You actually--

KARLA
I looked for a figurative work.

ROB
Was it hard at first because people didn't understand that space or didn't want to support that space because they hadn't before?

KARLA
Yeah, it was because the idea is that people have to buy.

ROB
Yes. And people are buying now. You’re very successful now.

KARLA
Yes, they buy now. But the problem at that time… You know, I had a gentleman come up to me a tour that I was giving at my gallery and he was just kind of, “Okay. But how do I live with this image?” And I was like, “What do you mean the way that you live with any other image?” I said, “Would it be such a problem if the [indiscernible - 19:32] were a white woman?” But in this case, it was a black woman. He's like, “Oh well, it doesn't look like anyone in our circle or in our family” and things. Like, they had a hard time wanting to hang a piece of work.

ROB
So how did you talk him through that?

KARLA
Well I said, “What if I asked you that about the Mona Lisa? Is that any less significant or important a piece of work” -- because she's a white woman, I assume. But I don't exactly identify with being white but I would have no problem hanging the Mona Lisa in my home because the value of it isn't based on her color. It's based on the artist, the artist’s intention, the technique, the historical value. So why can't you see that in this work and look beyond the color?

ROB
So it’s the way you got him to understand his own bias that he probably didn't even see happening.

KARLA
Exactly. Absolutely.

ROB
It happens a lot. You know, I always talk about like, “How do you…” We talk a lot about racism on the show. I have a very different, I think, definition of “Racism” because I think nearly everyone is racist. In my opinion, unless you work hard to go against what society tells you, you're going to believe the constructs that are out there which are basically that black and brown people are not equivalent.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
That's reinforced every day. Overtly, covertly, consciously, subconsciously, it's the narrative that's out there that we seek to change. So it sounds like you're going about it in a way that is trying to make people understand that you've been brainwashed.

KARLA
Yes, I’m reprogramming, you know.

ROB
Yes.

ROB
And a lot of this is based in legal theories that I did study.

ROB
Interesting.

KARLA
So you have “Brown” versus the “Board of Education.”

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
Right? And it showed how detrimental the effects of segregation actually was on black children. But even on white children…

ROB
Absolutely.

KARLA
…because they were not exposed to one another. They couldn’t learn. There was no cross-cultural dialogue. And also, if you keep one segment of the population in poverty with destroyed books -- you know, you had the white school looking great and the black school just looking awful -- you started to give these young black children this belief that they were inferior, you know.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
And you reinforce it every day in their everyday life. On TV, you only saw white faces. You go to the toy store, you can only buy white dolls. And that's why when they did the experiment with the dolls in court… you know--

ROB
Yeah, the black children wanted the white dolls.

KARLA
The white dolls, right?

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
So for me, I want little black girls to want the white doll.

ROB
Isn’t it amazing? Take a little bit off subject. You see the Little Mermaid now is black and there was such a… We had this conversation on another podcast, too. There was an outrage from some people enough so that the company had to respond, that people were upset that they say, “Well Ariel can't be black when she's a made-up fictional character.”

KARLA
She’s a fiction… And not only that, if you look at stories of mermaids, Mami Wata from Africa goes back way before some of the stories of sailors were coming up with about sirens at the time of exploration.

In the Caribbean, we carry those goddesses with us through the slave trade. And we brought those stories. So for us, mermaids, actually, in fact, were black, you know, if you want to take it back that far and if you want to dig that deep.

ROB
Right. No, it makes sense.

KARLA
But they are mythical fictional creatures.

ROB
But it goes back to your conversation you have with that gentleman, why is there a problem that this person is of color? Why is that you're issuing and… Some people… There's a couple different camps there. There's probably three different camps. There's one different camp like, “Never thought about it that way.” Another camp that will totally deny that that's what it is.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
And the other one, they might just accept it. Like, “This is how I am” and they overtly accept it. It sounds like you got a lot of people that were in between that didn't consciously know that they were doing it. It sounds like that you're working to, like you said, change narratives and that's pretty awesome.

KARLA
Absolutely. And to expose people to their inherent bias, you know.

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
“Perhaps you're not a racist but you act like one,” you know. [Laughter]

ROB
And again, I tell people when people get offended, I said, “I don't think it's an offensive call. Unless you've worked and been intentional all your life to understand you’re bias, you are going to be racist.”

KARLA
Yes. And even amongst black community.

ROB
Black people, too. Absolutely.

KARLA
We have colorism. It's a major issue.

ROB
There's a major, major issue.

KARLA
In Jamaica, we've got the brown paper bag test.

ROB
Yeah, we got them in the United States, too.

KARLA
Exactly. It exists. You know, “How curly is your hair? How straight is your hair?”

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
4c, 3b… I mean--

ROB
No, there's no question.

KARLA
Google natural hair.

ROB
Yeah. [Laughter]

KARLA
[You can have an - 24:33] entire argument.

ROB
I know. Right? So I want to talk about a failure that comes out in your mind. It could be a personal one, too. What has been your biggest setback or failure in your life and how did that help you now now that you have the wisdom of hindsight? How does that help you to be who you are today?

KARLA
I guess I would say… Mm, biggest failure? I feel like I had so many.

ROB
Well think about the one that's in your brain. It could be personal, whatever -- the one that was the most challenging for you to move forward with.

KARLA
Well in the beginning, a lot of people used to want me to speak, right, when I would have these shows and do these exhibitions but I just didn't like to be in the forefront or to do any talking. So I would hide myself. I would let the artists go into the speaking--

Of course, I would write all the essays for the shows so people understood what my intentions were. I was terrified of public speaking. I was sitting there and just talking to the audience. And I feel like I had gotten over that.

ROB
Did it hurt you once, that you can point to that you just thought about… be like where it could have created a better opportunity had you actually gone out there and spoken?

KARLA
Definitely. And I would say I can't pinpoint one particular opportunity.

ROB
Okay.

KARLA
But once I started to open my mouth and to find my voice--

ROB
You don’t seem shy.

KARLA
Well I’ve learned to control this now, you know, to really--

ROB
So you have some anxiety about it.

KARLA
Yes.

ROB
How did you learn to control it because I’m sure there are others out there that have the same anxiety? They're like, “I can't make myself an extrovert at certain moments.” And not that you are making yourself an extrovert but you’re learning how to be when you need to be.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
Tell people, what did you do to… because if you're naturally an introvert, how did you make yourself go out there and just start talking and doing things you're not comfortable with being uncomfortable?

KARLA
Honestly, I started to think of all the things my ancestors endured and why it was important for me to open my damn mouth. I was like, “Listen, they're not here to do it.” I said, “You're going to let down a lot of people who have survived so many things to get to the point where I’ve actually been created and where I actually have a platform and a voice and people are willing to hear it. So it's time to open your mouth.”

You know, I just kept saying to me, “Okay, fine. You're going to tremble. You're going to be nervous. You're going to keep moving your hands” or whatever. “You're going to have these nervous ticks. Just speak and just speak from the heart. Let your passion out and tell people exactly what it is that you're trying to get across,” which was this idea of equality and humanity for all people.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
So once I just kind of tapped into that, it just kind of just flowed from there. I almost forgot there were people around me.

ROB
True.

KARLA
But it took years for me to decide that this is what I had to do. And it was at the moment that I was curating a series of shows based on Haitian Vodou--

ROB
Oh wow. “Haitian Vodou.”

KARLA
Exactly.

ROB
Wow, I want to know about this. Go ahead.

KARLA
And it was a show called “Genesis.”

ROB
Okay.

KARLA
It was the first show that I did when I opened the gallery in Little Haiti and I wanted to honor the community. And at that time, there were a lot of Botanicas, a lot of practitioners in the area. And so I started to do a lot of research and really delving into what Voodoo consisted of, what it was about. And it was really about honoring your ancestors -- at least that's what I took from.
ROB
Right.

KARLA
And I think during all that research, I started to… Maybe I was imagining that the ancestors were speaking to me and telling me, “Keep going. This is the right path. Now open your mouth now. Tell our stories. We can't do it.” All right?

ROB
Right.

KARLA
“But your DNA is filled with our stories.” And I remember the same time I was doing some research about water and showing that water had a memory. It keeps the memory of anything that's ever touched. And your body is made up of 75% of water and it comes from your mother and your mother and your mother and your mother, you know.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
And I just drawn that and I said, “Okay, whatever.” Maybe because of all this research, there were messages coming, you know, and I just went with it.

ROB
Wow, that’s awesome.

KARLA
Yeah. I thought, “Well someone endured a lot for me to be able to do what I’m doing today.”

ROB
Oh that's awesome.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
So just moving to a few final questions. What if you can talk to your younger self, let's say 20 years back, what would you tell yourself now?

KARLA
I would tell her to listen to her instincts. When the instinct told you that it wasn't a good idea, listen. When the instincts said, “Now is the time to speak up,” open your mouth.

ROB
Today, since you’re comfortable, can you talk about those times? And I think people need to hear that mistakes happen, vulnerabilities happen because people might see this successful black woman that's doing these amazing things... “I can never do that because I’ve just made so many mistakes. I made a stupid relationship. I did this and that. And all these things have held me back.” Talk about those moments.

So some moments came in your head when you said that to younger self. Tell me what those moments were that you just had in your head.

KARLA
Oh there are so many moments.

ROB
Something happened in your head. What’s the first thing that came up in your head?

KARLA
Well part of it was when I first decided to open a space in Little Haiti and everyone's like, “This neighborhood is dangerous. No one will ever go there. You're completely crazy.”

And I had major players in Miami art market saying this -- you know, other gallerists. They’re like, “She's nuts for going out there. Someone's going to break down the door“ -- anything like that. And at that moment, I mean I really felt like, “What am I doing,” you know. “Here it is.”

ROB
Sure.

KARLA
And I went out, got a building, everything, put money on the line -- you know, really put everything into it -- and thinking to myself, “Can this really work.” And it was just, “Just keep going.” I said, “How many things have you done in your life and you've stumbled so many times but eventually, you learned how to walk,” you know.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
So I think that each failure that a person has, they need to examine what it was that caused them to fail and figure out how to correct that behavior, you know.
ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
I mean my first exam in law school didn't go so great, [laughs] you know.

ROB
So what did you have to correct? Think about a time when you made a… because you talked a little bit about it but you held back. I mean that's what I think. There was something you've done.

I’ll start with me. This is easier. So I’ve had a divorce and I realized that we probably never should've gotten married. And then I was doing things based upon expectations of others -- expectations of what was supposed to be. And I realized that those things were in me then and I would have told myself, “You don't have to do things for other people,” particularly that.

But at that time, I felt this is what you're supposed to do as a good guy or whatever. You're supposed to do it. You're supposed to get married and it's just as… I guess it's supposed to be this way because this is just the way it is. But truthfully, I always knew something was not always there. And I take credit for my failures and I had many within the relationship. But I learned a lot through that and learned that I had to be more self-aware and be better, too.

So that's one of my many, many failures. But if you can think about… It doesn't have to be that. But like when did you have to adjust and ones you have to adjust personally?

KARLA
I’m going to tell you. [Laughter] Okay. Well similar situation -- I got divorced. All right?

ROB
Yeah, those are never fun. Go ahead.

KARLA
Never fun -- after 12 years of marriage…

ROB
Mine was 10.

KARLA
…and two children…

ROB
I didn't have kids.
KARLA
…and got divorced.

ROB
Nothing wrong. Kids are a blessing. But you know what I mean.

KARLA
Kids are great.

ROB
Yeah. But they complicate that.

KARLA
Absolutely. It's tough because you're trying to balance. And at that moment, I was at a crossroads. Do I [shut down - 33:21] the place and just like--

ROB
Wait. You got a divorce in the middle of being an entrepreneur?

KARLA
Yes.

ROB
Oh lord, have mercy.

KARLA
Yes, and had to redo everything because we had like an LLC created and we had to break apart certain assets and businesses and things like that. It was a mess.

ROB
Oh I’m sure.

KARLA
Yeah. And then at that moment… I mean the economy hasn't been great in the last decade or so. It's just up and down.

ROB
This is 2006?

KARLA
Well no. No. 2006 is when I came here from France.

ROB
Okay.
KARLA
But the divorce started 2015 into 2016. And the idea was, “What do I do now,” right…

ROB
Right.

KARLA
…because when you're married, you have a partner.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
And we did a lot of things together, in the business together -- everything. You have someone to bounce ideas off of.

But the married me and the person that I am now is very different. Now I’ve learned to love myself just as much as I would love you. I’ll put myself, I would say, even before that. You have to love yourself the most in order to be able to respect and fully love others. And now, finding myself on my own, you feel like you're alone when you’re divorced, right?

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
Do you continue? Do you continue with the gallery? Yes, you have clients. You have artists. You have things going on. And at a moment, I had to basically cut all my artists loose because I said to them, “I don't think I’m in the right headspace to be able to focus on you,” you know.

ROB
Wow.

KARLA
And I started coming up with different ideas. And people were still coming to me wanting work and wanting to do things and I’m like, “How can I make this work?” And this is how Yeelen Group became…

ROB
Wow.

KARLA
…because I started Yeelen gallery where I was doing exhibitions, managing artists, doing all of this heavy nurturing of talents.

And I said, “I can't really do that because I need to focus on me and my children, the situation.” And so I said, “You know what? Let's transform the business and let's still sell the art and still deal with…” You know, high-value items were added on because people were always coming… You know, “If you can get art, well, maybe you can get this.”

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And so from there, it was really, “Okay, let's restructure the whole thing. I restructured the entire company.” You know, tax attorneys, accountant -- redo everything to make sure that it functions well. And now it's an entity that's just mine.

ROB
So you became even stronger from that.

KARLA
I did.

ROB
That's awesome.

KARLA
I did. And I had to walk into rooms with a lot of very important people. And instead of having a husband that… You know, he’s a businessman, alpha male. He’d go in and get what he wanted. But here it is now. I have to do that.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
I said, “Okay.”

ROB
You summoned your inner alpha woman.

KARLA
Yeah, my full five-foot-four. I was like, “Okay, I can do this. I’m going to walk in. I’m going to take charge and say, “This is how it's going to be.” And I had to learn how to say “No.”
ROB
Oh how did you do that?

KARLA
I just kept saying “No” [Laughter]

ROB
You learned “Yes” has a cost.

KARLA
Yes. “Yes” has a huge cost. I started turning down everything just to practice saying “No” almost, you know. [Laughter] So everything was “No. No. No.”

But usually, individuals that have something great, they don't take “no” for an answer. So some of those people would come back to me and say, “You really want to turn this down?” And they'd show me reasons why, you know, then it would make sense. I was like, “You know what? Let’s look a little closer to that.”

But saying “no” really helped me because then you find out who really supports you, you know.

ROB
Yeah. You do find that out.

KARLA
Yes. Say “no” to someone, you see how fast… They're like, “Oh we don't like her anymore,” you know. I mean “no” saves you from a lot of--

ROB
“No” saves you from a lot… even seemingly good opportunities.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
Yeah, “No” is a powerful thing and it will help you in your life.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
What you don't choose to do that will have sometimes the greatest effect on your life is what I’ve found.

KARLA
Mm-hmm, yeah.

ROB
I want networking very quick. I know I said we're in our last questions but you made me kind of think of another question. It sounds like a lot of your success has been because of the trust you built with your network. Is that correct?

KARLA
Yes, correct.

ROB
Talk to people about networking. How did you build that? How did you build a network where people would… When you told them “No,” which fight get you to do something to give you business? They wanted you to do it so bad because they trusted you. How did you develop that?

KARLA
You know what it was? I had a certain amount of freedom, all right? The background that I was afforded especially during the marriage was a comfortable life so I was able to just--

You know, at that moment, people wouldn't just come up to me to disrespect right away because they could feel that, “Maybe we should be a little bit more gentle with her because she…” Sometimes I’ve been in positions of power.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
Right? And so… Well let me start over with that one. But based on a lot of that, I was able to get into certain social circles.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
All right? I was at the table with billionaires often. My time in France was spent in real estate development for a very big family firm and so meeting a lot of old money types in Europe and having to--

And in France, I will say that the difference is people want to talk to you and see what you're about, mentally, and then they start to base their judgments on that whereas in the U.S., they look at you and they judge you.
ROB
That's pretty true, yeah.

KARLA
Right? So over there, they talk to you. They give you a little time to hang yourself, right?

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And when they found out that, well, I could rub two sticks together and make a little fire, they were like, “Okay,” you know. And I hang out with a lot of older people because the French population tends to be quite grown-up.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
You know, billionaires tend not to be 20 years old, you know.

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
So I was around a lot of people like that and they would encourage me. And they'd say, “You know what? You're smart and you've got passion. You've got drive. Just stick with it,” you know. And once you get a person to start talking to you, you're good, you know.

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And I like to be around people that disagree with me, actually, because they challenge the way that I think -- my perspective. And I try to figure out, “Why is it that they disagree?” It drives me insane. It's annoying, you know.

ROB
Of course it is.

KARLA
I’ve been in a room with someone that's absolutely a racist and saying things that art--

ROB
I've been in those rooms, too.

KARLA
Yeah. It gets your blood boiling and you're like, “You know what? I’m just going to stay calm. I’m going to hear exactly what it is and I’m going to look at all the flaws and what they're saying and get to the root of exactly why it is.”

I’m not saying I’m going to change a racist into… you know. But if you can get them to acknowledge their racism then maybe they can go and do the work if they so choose.

ROB
Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences and my approach there is to seek to understand why they have that perspective and see if there's… There’s no validity in racism but there's always validity in a person's perspective…

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
…because there's a reason why they have that belief. And it's a cognitive error. It's not a correct belief. But it's always based on, usually, some real experience or limited knowledge because of… whatever.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
And I think understanding the language of where they come from, and if you can understand and reflect back to them, that they're actually not meeting their own values.

KARLA
Mm-hmm, yeah.

ROB
That's when I found some progress, generally. I mean that's kind of how I approach it.

KARLA
And not only that, when you think about racism, we really have to acknowledge that it's a system, right?

ROB
Yes.

KARLA
I’m continuously saying that black people in America, at least in the U.S., we cannot be racist because we don't control the system and we don't have enough power to actually be racists. We can be prejudiced. We can have the inherent bias. You know, it’s important to get that.

And I think the argument is always like, “Oh but if you're doing a show and it's only about the black woman…” You know, I did a show in 2015, I believe it was, about a black woman's legacy and everyone's, “But the show is only about black women. How is that different from someone that would do a show about just white culture?”

ROB
Because we get that 99% of the time.

KARLA
Correct. Well there's a story that's been told that’s been kept out of the history.

ROB
Correct. And there's the issues that the stories had not be told and they're not been told truthfully.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
And that's why people don’t understand. It’s similar to why people say, “Black lives matter.”

KARLA
Everyone matters, of course.

ROB
Everyone matters.

KARLA
But this moment, black people are having the trouble.

ROB
Right. And we're just making sure that you understand that our lives… Because the truth is, what they're trying to say is black lives should matter and they don't.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
Right? That's really what people are saying. And people that get worked up and the [fed - 42:45] is saying like, “Why are you saying only black lives matter,” no, we’re just trying to say black lives actually matter.

KARLA
Yeah.

ROB
And they should matter just like your life matters because everybody’s lives matter.

KARLA
Yeah. Black people are actually human.

ROB
Right, exactly. That’s what we’re saying.

KARLA
Like they’re actually human, you know.

ROB
Yes.

KARLA
And we see it today, right?

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
We turn on the TV and Forty-Five is just going on and on about…

ROB
He’s good about the human nature.

KARLA
…brown and vermin and infestation and this kind of talk that just delineates an entire group of people to some subspecies.

ROB
Yep.

KARLA
Right?
ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And we're seeing how dangerous that is.

ROB
That's extremely dangerous.

KARLA
Right? Because you don't think twice about stepping on a cockroach.

ROB
No, you don’t.

KARLA
Unless you’re like a Buddhist or you believe in reincarnation. You're like, “Oh that could be my mean uncle,” you know. You might not step on it. But in our society, it's nothing to get rid of a pest.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
Right?

ROB
And so language is important.

ROB
Language is important. Patterns are important. What you say and what you allow, what you tolerate, all of that is important.

ROB
Absolutely. And when I do shows about black people and these people say, “Oh but you're being racist because only…” I cannot be racist.

ROB
Right.

KARLA
It is impossible for me to be a racist in the United States of America under our current system. I do not hold political office. I did not create this system. I can't prevent you from prospering based on your color.
ROB
Right.

KARLA
But the majority of the country or should I say, the Caucasians can in this country. You know, the system was designed that way.

ROB
Correct. That's a hard conversation though.

KARLA
It's a very hard con… But I have it often.

ROB
And you have it with billionaires. I applaud you for that.

KARLA
I do. I do. You know, they’re like, “Oh, she’s not afraid of us and our money.”

ROB
I found there’s some respect. I have some friends who are… You know, I’ve quite a few that are Trump supporters. But I tell them very directly, conversation we have now, I have with them, and I think they're surprised. Like, “Oh wow.” I think there's some respect from that. And I hope there's some thoughts that I have at least challenged in their mind to look at these things differently. I mean that's my hope like you. I mean that we're at least trying to get them to question the assumptions and narratives they have in their mind that aren't true about black and brown people.

KARLA
Absolutely. And I also think that you can be an example…

ROB
Yeah, absolutely.

KARLA
…you know, because I’m doing things that people like me just don't do.

ROB
Or they assume you don't do.

KARLA
Mm-hmm, correct.

ROB
Because that’s the narrative.

KARLA
Correct. That’s the narrative.

ROB
You’re showing that that that narrative is not true.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
Final question here: You have a billboard or Google ad that is saying your beliefs, whatever. What does that say?

KARLA
Oh I know exactly what that says. Well because I’m in the arts, I always believed that my hashtag… I don't know. Whatchamacallit? …slogan, “What does your art say about you? What does it say about the things you value?”

ROB
Yeah.

KARLA
And if that's really empty and it's just pretty pictures, you need to start on over again.

ROB
Oh show me your art, I’ll show you your value.

KARLA
Correct.

ROB
All right.

KARLA
Absolutely.

ROB
That's a good slogan.

KARLA
I think so.
ROB
Yeah. Karla Ferguson, it’s a pleasure to have you on.

KARLA
Thank you.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]