“This is a reminder to people that while you might think that you've made it, something like a virus will take anybody down. It doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter what the color of your skin looks like, how big your house is, a teeny tiny microscopic virus can take you out.” -- Emilia Sykes

-------------------

ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. It's an honor here to bring Emilia Sykes who is the Minority House Leader. She's blazing trails. -- You’re one of the youngest in history, I think, in… I know you are one of the few African-American women leading in any way as a minority leader -- a leader otherwise, leading in politics.

So she's been blazing trails for a long time. She's here in the state of Ohio. There’s a lot going on in the state of Ohio as it is across the United States.

But what I really want to focus on, Leader Sykes, is really discussing… I’d like to really discuss the climate we have with the coronavirus and what you see is happening on the state level -- what's going wrong, what's going right.

I’ll start with the governor. What I can tell from 30,000 feet, he has certainly responded better than some other governors who have followed the lead of what's ever going on at the White House. I think he started off taking it seriously following the facts early. And for that, he deserves credit.

It has been a rather low bar, I would say… This is no criticism of him. It’s just the acknowledgement of the situation, that whenever someone does the basic minimum of what's right, people are like just so excited because the expectations have been so low. That's from my perspective.

But he has followed the facts. He did take it seriously before some other governors did -- particularly, we’re talking about Republican governors because people are scared to go against what happens in the White House. But what has been your sense in terms of what has been done right from that perspective and then what are the missed opportunities that the governors or others are just not paying attention to at this moment?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Thanks, Rob, for first having me on and letting this conversation be had. I think as we continue through it, we'll start to uncover some interesting tidbits. But I do think that the governor has done a good job with leading the state through this crisis and there will be many more tests of his leadership as we continue to see how this virus spreads throughout the community and how they address all of those needs.

I think your point about there being a generally low bar is a very pointed one. If you look at the federal response, that the president called the coronavirus a hoax and that it was no worse than a flu and they’ll just get through it, it's pretty clear that people are looking for leadership. And any leadership is better than none and we are seeing that here in Ohio.

Now I don't mean to diminish what the governor has done but people are scared. They are unsure. They're not clear about their futures. And someone standing up in any capacity does help calm those nerves.

So we do have to be mindful as we move through this process that we aren't just blindly following and we are also participating in what we are being led to do because it only works if all of us are involved in it, if all of our needs and thoughts are being considered and we're not just focusing on certain communities and not others.

The public health response was initially and is initially the biggest deal that we've got to take care of. And I think what we've seen is that has been strong. It has been focused. It has been clear. But there's also an economic part of this that has not been as robust and certainly needs to be engaged in a bit more.

I've talked to our speaker. We’ve written letters and press releases to our Senate president and other leaders, encouraging our state legislature to join in in pushing for supporting our communities.

The governor has his hands full with tracking the coronavirus, doing the modeling and getting the public health messages out. But as a legislature who has the power of the purse, who can change and make decisions about all kinds of things that people don't even know we have the ability to make, we need to be participating constantly in communication about how we can be addressing these needs particularly these economic needs of how people are going to pay their rent or mortgage or get food on their table and educate their kids because without it, we're going to come out of this being very handicapped with being able to rise above and move forward.

ROB
Yeah. Some other countries are really handling the approach different from the United States. I think we've gotten some things right, we've got some things wrong in terms of how we're responding. Certainly, we weren't as prepared, as you said, on a federal level.

But the Congress, and was signed by the president, passed a stimulus act that has a lot of good focus. But I think the missed opportunities is that a lot of the focus has been on business -- big business, small business. I'm not saying not be a focus there. But what we've seen other countries do is directly make sure that people are taken care of. I mean other countries, literally, directly give wages to employees like in the restaurant industry, for example, that are completely shut down, through employers. But they don't just say, “Oh you’re unemployment and then we'll help you out there” because that causes all type of disruption.

So from that point of view, you were getting at some things that I really want to hit on about what the state is looking to do and what you're looking at here in terms of--

If you look at the jobless claims for unemployment, a record has been set for the number of people who have filed for unemployment. So we know that's probably a lagging indicator. It's worse than that likely. So what measures are you taking on the state end knowing the federal is doing some but can only do so much in terms of those things you're talking about -- you know, figuring out how people are going to meet their mortgage if they just got their whole income wiped out or rent or things like that? What are you looking at and what do constituents need to know about that?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So we've done some things. And when I say “some things,” last week, the legislature came back into the session. We passed House Bill 197 which was originally a tax bill. Just procedurally, it was easier to tackle on things to that bill and move it through the process so we could address some of these initial needs.

So one of those big issues that we were able to address in House Bill 197 was prohibiting public utility companies from shutting off people's water supply. We've been going around for the past month saying, “Wash your hands. Wash your hands,” well, how are you going to wash your hands when you don’t have water in your house? And beyond that water is a primary element of life-sustaining elements. People need water and people are going to be at home. So that was one thing that was positive that came out of 197. All that came out of 197 was positive and a step in the right direction.

Another thing that was included in there was the unemployment compensation changes which eliminates the week delay process so people can access those funds immediately.

ROB
That’s great.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
It allows people who are laid off or no longer able to work because of the coronavirus, they can access unemployment benefits as well. While that is a good move and was a great move and one that our caucus pushed for, we were actually requesting paid leave for many of these families. And we have introduced bill after bill after bill for paid sick leave and paid family leave which would have been much more appropriate in this situation.

Unemployment compensation is what we have and it will help people but not give them their full pay. So they can get up to 50% per week of their pay through the state's unemployment compensation which with the CARES Act, which is federal plan, has some supplements to that. So that'll be helpful.

ROB
So you have a supplement to what the CARES Act is. I think people need to know that, right? There'll be some additional support. You're saying these are additional to the federal response.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yes. But the issue with the CARES Act is… Well there's two issues. One, it's a matter of bandwidth and technology. So the unemployment compensation system already was a bit challenging to work through prior to a record numbers of people accessing the phones and the website. Our offices are hearing from constituents who are having a hard time getting through the process, getting their pen, verifying all the information and getting kicked out of the system and that's making it problematic. Now we've been told that so long as people still qualify--

Say, you were laid off on March 1st and you weren't actually able to get through the system until March 15th, it'll be backdated so you won't lose those benefits. But who knows what happened in those 15 days you couldn't get it? So that is at least some saving grace there.

But because of that system, it's been really hard for people to get in. So if anyone's listening who's trying, just keep trying. Hopefully, the governor's office and his administration will increase the bandwidth so people can actually access the benefits that they want and we're just not saying, “It’s there. It’s there. It’s there but sorry you can't get to it.”

The other part about it is that the CARES Act program is an unemployment compensation system that doesn't exist, so they have to create it. So it's going to be several weeks before that's up and running.

ROB
At least.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
At least. So if the current system is in any indication as to what we can expect, it's going to be a rough ride. But when you are able to get in, you will get those benefits without delay. And for the people who I have spoken to and the constituents who we have, once they get in, there is no delay in getting their money which is a good silver lining in all this process. So it's coming, it's just not coming as fast as some people need or want it to.

The unemployment compensation was one of the issues that we dealt with in the state legislative bill.

The other thing that might be helpful to people, there is a tolling of the statute of limitations. And for all the people who like to stay away from legal terms, it just means that the statute of limitations just don't matter for many of the criminal, civil and administrative actions that are going to be happening.

So why is that important to people now? Well if you don't have a job and you have a mortgage or rent to pay and you don't have a job to do it, you might be subjected to an eviction. Well if the courts aren't moving swiftly or if you can push that back then that gives people some time and some breathing room so that they don't get evicted from their homes.

Now that's an option and probably… not “probably.” There are stronger options that we could have taken. There could have been an order demanding or requiring mortgage lenders or landlords from completely prohibiting evictions. I think there's only about seven states in the country right now who have not done such a thing. Unfortunately, Ohio is included in that.

So there is more that could have been done. And we're, at this point, just hoping that people don't file the evictions. Many municipalities have halted or pushed back their dockets. Akron, for example -- Akron Municipal Court -- has pushed it back, I learned, through May. So if you're in Akron, they're not going to go through those eviction proceedings. But if you're just in the next town over, in Barberton, I don't know what their courts are doing. So we're just relying on this patchwork of laws. That could be a little bit stronger but it is helpful for people.

ROB
Yeah. Leader Sykes, when we think about small, particularly black businesses, thinking about the barbers out here, the salon shops who clearly can't operate at all in this environment, what are we doing for those communities in particular? Or if we're not doing enough, what should be done? As you know, those are staples. Some of the original entrepreneurs, a lot of them are barbers. Some of the first entrepreneurs we had were barbers and hair salons. Right now, they're not able to operate their business. They went from a hundred to zero. What's your message to them and what is being done or what is being contemplated at the state level?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
There are some small business loans that exist that people can apply for and those funds are coming from the federal government. But obviously, as these business owners know, no one wants to take on extra debt during this time. And even if it's a low interest or no interest loan, it's still money that has to get paid back at some point. So that is not an ideal situation for these small businesses.

There really isn't much for people who are beauticians and barber shop owners and other small business owners who serve like masseuse or nail techs. All these people are sort of in this strange business owner/1099 worker. Sometimes, they work for business. There's really nothing that exists that is helping all those frameworks of people. There's just these patchworks that are trying to catch as many people as possible.

There's a lot of people in our economy especially since we have this new gig economy thing but employers don’t want to hire employees and so that leaves them very vulnerable to these types of situations which coming out of this, we really need to look at our social safety nets and how we're taking care of people and what it means when… Today, it's coronavirus. Next week, it’s something else. How do you get these people through?

ROB
Right. And hold that. I want to talk more… Let's dive into that in a second. I just want to address what you talked about. I would say to folks who are solo entrepreneurs, small entrepreneurs… There’s a lot of black and brown communities… There's a lot of folks listening to this show. Actually, we just released a whole detailed episode on this. It's going to literally come up in about five minutes and that'll be up. But in case you didn't see that, I would just tell people that--

I would encourage you at least to apply for one of those loans because there's one loan that’s actually a forgivable loan… That's not even a loan. It’s a grant for the economic disaster relief loan. As long as you've been in business, you can show that. You can fill out some paperwork. You get $10,000.

Essentially, it's supposed to given to you right away. I doubt if it's going to be given to you right away. But I would encourage you to go through the process, to go to the SBA website to see what you're eligible for.

Again, like I said, we just have a show on that and we're going to have detailed notes. It's actually called “Small Business Survival During Corona.” So if you see that up, go to that show. That'll provide some resources for you.

Let’s, Leader Sykes, get to what you just said, what you indicated there, that this virus has really… It's a crisis, certainly. But in a crisis, a crisis often exposes the vulnerabilities of any situation or system. To your point, our system looks very vulnerable the fact that people are not supported in the way that they should be in that if any type of disruption happens in their life, it's hard to sustain because of how we've structured our economy. What other changes are you looking to communicate, to advocate, while we have this moment where people see, well, you actually need government? What is it that you want people to both know and see?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Well that's a great question and I'm going to go back to the unemployment compensation because there are several lessons in that. The first one is Ohio's unemployment compensation fund is pretty much insolvent and--

ROB
Which means there’s no money, just so people know.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
It means that there's not enough money. There are requirements that we keep enough money to use it for a year and Ohio's fund is only eligible to be paying out claims for about three months.

The last time we ran to this issue, after the 2008-2009 mortgage foreclosure crisis have never fully put the money back. And then the state borrowed money from the federal government which is the federal government's there for our support but at this point, the fund is just not even there to support the need of a typical -- whatever “typical” means --unemployment situation or what they thought of a recession. So what we are going to be entering into is a sincere and legitimate recession.

And let me remind everyone, in 2008 and 2009, the mortgage foreclosure wasn't because everything shut down. Now we're in a situation where business just shut down a large percentage particularly here in Ohio where service industry makes up a huge portion of it. None of these people are working at all. In 2008-2009, fewer people were working but now they're not working at all. So it's not the same and it's going to be much worse.

And if you want to think about a benchmark to compare it, that was bad. This is going to be far worse and mostly because things have come to a grinding halt. And they came very quickly and there was really little to no preparation for it. At least with the recession, you could sort of see it coming and make adjustments. This was one of those things that--

Well some people saw it coming except for our president who thought it was a hoax so we didn't even get the benefit of a couple of weeks of preparation for these types of issues.

So consider our unemployment compensation fund right now. It does not have the money. The federal government is going to throw some cash into that which will be helpful.

But again, we were talking about this… And there were articles about this at the beginning of the year about the unemployment compensation fund and our state's leaders just basically said, “No, we're good. We don't need to do that. We don't want to increase taxes. It'll be fine. We'll make it.” And even then we were being told that we were going to be entering into recession sometime by the end of this year-early next year. So that was terrible planning.

It is pretty typical for those types of things to happen in state government where these things never really happen. We won't invest into it and hope for the best. And now we're in the worst situation and that‘s not going to cut it. So that's one issue -- the “Unemployment compensation fund.”

The other issue is paid sick leave. Since I've been in the General Assembly, we're six years -- probably longer than that -- saying that we need to create a system in the United States to support families who are caregivers to either new children, young children, sick children and family members or their older [indiscernible - 20:02] parents or themselves. Remember, the coronavirus, we're talking about people needing to leave work when they're sick and people refusing to do that because they need the money.

Now just imagine how much easier it would have been at the beginning if folks knew there was a paid sick leave program for them and they said, “Oh we’re hearing this virus coming and they said you’re going to spread it if you show up to work. Let me go and take myself back home and not spread this.” Well we don't have a culture or an environment that does that because people cannot… If you work in an industry where you have to show up to get paid that salary, they would show up because they got to pay their rent. They got to feed their kids.

ROB
Correct.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So we are consistently perpetuating a culture of sickness because we don't have paid sick leave. And the bills that we've introduced are insurance programs where people pay into them and their employers match it and it's voluntary.

So that is like capitalist as you get of sick leave programs that we've been trying to get people to buy into. And we've been told it's unnecessary… I mean the things we've been told about how it's unnecessary to have this kind of insurance program. “We don't need these kinds of things. People will be just fine,” and it's clear that people are not. So those have exposed some major holes.

The other thing I’ll just talk about quickly is our health care system. Now we've always had problems with people accessing the right health care at the right time. And when you add in layers and fear and doubt… Right now, we're pushing people to emergency rooms. At one point, we were telling people, “Go to the emergency room.” The emergency room is saying, “We can't hold all these people. Go to your private care physician or primary care physician.” Well if you don't have a primary care physician, where do you go? You go to an emergency room. So it's like a circle of, “Where do people go?”

And then we talked about how you’re going to pay for it. So now you got this diagnosis with COVID-19 and then your insurance decides they’re not going to pay for it. So now you've got this huge out-of-pocket expense and now you don't have a job. I mean what are we doing to people?

I worked as a law clerk in two bankruptcy courts and I would go through people's… We call them “Schedules” which is when they file all of their debt and we can see what kind of debt they have. And this was right after 2008-2009 financial crisis. People had so much medical debt and medical debt continues to push people into bankruptcy. We have to start thinking about a more--

ROB
I think it’s still the number one thing that pushes people into bankruptcy, I believe.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
It is. And we have to start getting people universal health care. And if you're not a Medicare for All person, fine. It doesn't have to be Medicare for All. But there's got to be--

ROB
Call it what you want to.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
There’s got to be something that gets all people health care when they need it so they're not delaying care, that they don't get these surprise bills that are more money than they make in a year that they have to come up within 30 days. And then we're just pushing people back into worse economic and health situations because people who don't have homes to live in are not healthy.

ROB
Yeah.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So if we're talking about the public's health and how we want to make them be healthy… Housing is a big part of that. And having a stable home to come to to find shelter that has heat or air or food in it, that is a big part of our wellness system and even the health care system -- someone having a good home. And people like to forget about that as though it's not an integral part of all of this.

So those are just three things that we've exposed. They have been exposed in this but there are many, many more.

ROB
Dealing with the coronavirus, particularly the Black community, I saw that you came out with wanting to have… to make sure that there was a particular focus on how it's affecting the Black community and other communities because it's important. Talk more about that.

And in particular, I want to talk to… This is not necessarily a Black community but we know many members of the Black community, unfortunately, are over incarcerated. Stopping the spread in prisons and actually figuring out an opportunity to say, as we talked about earlier, “Look, we've had some holes in our system. One is our criminal justice system. And this is an opportunity to make sure we stop the spread by reducing the amount of people in prison.” Talk through both of those things if you can about what’s on the state level and what you're proposing needs to be done if something is not happening.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Absolutely. On any given day, the healthcare system is not one that is always friendly towards black and brown communities. And we can tell that through our health disparities; we can look at our maternal mortality rates; we can look at our infant mortality rates; the way people are treated not just personally but treated as the physicians and the health care providers when they have come in and present different conditions. It's been well-documented that there are disparities in the way that white versus black or Hispanic or Asian people are treated in health care settings. And then the impacts are deadly. This is a given on any day. So now we've got a crisis. And of course, those things become exacerbated.

There have been some calls at the federal level to push out racial data because we need to start seeing whether or not these are issues that are being disproportionately impacting certain groups of communities.

So early, we knew men and women… People were asking the question -- Men versus women -- “Are men not listening enough or women healthier to begin with?” And we were able to talk about that. We've talked about this in terms of age data -- “Why are older people more susceptible? What is happening in those communities?” There is no racial data that we are hearing.

ROB
Which is insane.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Which is insane. I read something this morning that talked about in Illinois, that there is a major increase of prevalence. And I'm going to put my public health hat on. Prevalence is the amount of people who have the disease amongst black people. It’s a much higher prevalence amongst black people than any other group -- white, Hispanic or Asian.

So what does that mean? You have to think about the tracking of the disease. Is it something about how the Black community is communicating? Are we actually adhering to social distancing? Are we getting tested at a higher rate? All of those things start to come into question as to whether or not there's an issue. And then you look at why or why not they are in ICU more or dying more. And then it helps you get some more information.

And then it lets people know that… Remember, when this first started, people were saying black people couldn't get the coronavirus.

ROB
Yeah, I remember that.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
And now, what we're hearing is there is an over-representation of black people in certain communities. So once we start looking at these urban cores where there are more--

ROB
Do not get your information from the internet and just random… Please, no.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yes. Please make sure you get the information from verified sources. When we're talking about health disparities in any context, it is really important because there are so many that exists to figure it all out.

So another piece of this, which people shouldn't forget about is coronavirus is a respiratory disease. It impacts your respiratory system including your lungs. Now the population of people who are most likely to have asthma are black people. Asthmatics are far more likely to end up in ICU or die from coronavirus. And by virtue of the fact, there is an over-representation of black people who have asthma. That already should send out all kinds of bells and alarms on people -- but it doesn't.

Same thing with heart disease. The one thing I heard recently, people with high blood pressure. We know what high blood pressure looks like in our community. So if you know that to be the case, you need to be ringing the alarm like, “Hey, y'all got a lot of high blood pressure in community. Make sure you are taking even more precautions.”

And then we look at autoimmune diseases which also seem to be an issue that increases ICU stays and death and the fact that there is an over-representation of people with lupus who are black.

We got to start looking at these things and saying. “Hey, you got an autoimmune disease. This is one that seems to be particularly common amongst black communities. You need to really take care of yourself.” And because we're not getting that information, we aren't able to give those messages to the communities and make them understand how they are far more at risk than maybe somebody else.
And those are the things that make people die. Those are the people that make people end up in an ICU because you're not looking at the folks who are most at risk. And that is a big thing about public health. You have to find the most at-risk communities and give them a lot of information and then you figure out who is least at risk.

But so far, what we keep saying is the people who are at risk are older and have pre-existing conditions. But we can break that down even further and look at asthmatics and who the people are likely to have asthmatics and what cities those people live in and really start to target this in a much better way. Especially testing--

ROB
It’s such a great point.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Testing is so horrific right now. And Ohio has the worst testing per capita in the country and so we need to start looking at--

ROB
In the country? Didn’t know that. Wow.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
In the country.

ROB
I want to make sure I got what you said. We have the worst testing per capita in the country.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah.

ROB
So that’s clearly a room for a whole bunch of improvement.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah, there’s room for a lot of improvement there, absolutely. So there's a lot we could be doing. And there are some holes and some gaps and it's good to watch it from the out… well not really on the outside but outside in, saying, “You need to do this. You need to do this.” But these are some legitimate concerns, especially for black and brown communities, we need to address. And then of course, with the Asian communities, they were targeted as a scapegoat.

ROB
Yeah, and still are being targeted as scapegoat.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
People gets beat up and stabbed all over the country for bringing the coronavirus and they never been to China. I mean this is absurd.

ROB
Yeah. I mean because people don't differentiate… First of all, you shouldn't do it because they’re from China because there's… I’ll get back to that for a minute. But people are not differentiating between Asians. It doesn't matter. They see an Asian, they're like, “Oh yeah, let's…” Like, “What?”

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Absolutely.

ROB
I mean because it’s crazy. It's ignorant to begin with, anyway, to call it a “Chinese virus” like the president occupant of the White House has done. And when you do that, the culture that you advocate ends up affecting the whole culture.

I think the point that I really love that you said… You didn't say this directly but I think it's implied that if we plan on solving this and stopping the spread of this virus, we must over communicate, give more resources to the communities we gave the least to. And it’s not that we're not trying to help other communities, it’s that if those communities don't get the help they need, it's going to continue to spread and affect everybody because--

The lesson in this virus should be, I hope it is, that no matter where you are, you're not immune. We are all connected here. It started off in a remote part of Wuhan, China. It’s affected the entire world. This is something we're going to solve but we have to learn that if we ignore vulnerable communities, it's going to continue to affect us just like Dr. King said.

So to that point, talking about people in prisons right now… I had David Singleton on the show who we had a whole focus on stopping the spread, particularly stopping the spread in our criminal justice system and how this is tied to getting people out of prison that don't need to be because, Leader Sykes, you can't social distance in a crowded prison.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
No.

ROB
Right? First of all, it's the humane thing to do to stop this. But then the second part of it is, if that doesn't motivate you, and it should, there are people that work in these prison systems all across rural Ohio that will also get the virus and then continue to bring it back if we don't find a way to actually reduce our prison population and use this opportunity right now. Has there been any focus in the state with this focus in the virus? And if not, how can we sound the alarm?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah, not much. One just kind of thing… just always to keep in mind when we're talking about prison population, there's just a lot of people there who don't need to be there in the first place.

ROB
Correct.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So there's always that truth that we have to deal with. And second of all, for the state, the state has an obligation. If you are going to take someone's freedom, you have to make sure that they are safe in whatever place that you're in. And I know that people, when I say that, there's probably going to be some grunts and responses to that, and there should be because that is a constitutional requirement. If you're going to take somebody's rights and freedom away, you have to make sure that they are in a safe place. You just can't throw them in a room, don't feed them, don't do anything to treat them as human beings. It's not allowed. Now there's all kind of asterisks around that, too.

ROB
Oh yeah, we got more showing that. But yes, you’re right.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah, exactly.

ROB
[Laughter] Yes.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So no two things to be true.

ROB
It’s not even funny to laugh at. You got to laugh to keep from crying. Go ahead.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
No, absolutely. Absolutely. And it should be pointed out and it should be said. People who are in prison are only going to be infected by people who are not in prison bringing it to them. So that in and of itself creates a liability on the state because now, the only people being allowed in the prison are essentially folks who are hired by the state --vendors, employees. They are bringing this virus into this population of people who have no other choice but to be there. So that should be a major concern of the governor and it cannot be construed as anything else. They cannot create the coronavirus and Grafton or in Lucasville or Marysville. It's coming from someone outside bringing it in.

ROB
Great point.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So what needs to happen is how do we minimize, one, the ability of people to bring it in which they have done but they've only done it by visitors -- so that's people's friends and family. And of course, that's an issue too because that connection to the outside is really the only thing that keeps a lot of people from going crazy in there and doing something that will keep them there even longer. So now that's gone.

ROB
Right.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So that's scary. But then we go to my first point was, a lot of people don't need to be there in the first place. So we need to start looking at those people a little bit closer, and we all know who they are, and start figuring out what happens if we release them. Are they almost at the end of their sentence anyway? Could they use a compassionate release? Are they older or they have pre-existing health conditions that make them more susceptible? Are they folks who have been model prisons citizens that just really could use the second chance and don't need to be there? All of those things need to be thought about. And they're doing them in other states and we could do it here in Ohio as well.

And this is, again, one of those exposures of our flaws in our system that’s being identified but might have a silver lining of the stand. We don't need all these people in prison. Before this happened, we were talking about the capacity of the prisons and they are filling up and how that was creating all of these stresses on the system. Maybe this was the thing that's going to help alleviate that stress.

ROB
Yeah.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
And as you said earlier, you can't practice social distancing in prison. You can quarantine people in prison which is usually where they put people in when they have behavior infractions.

ROB
Correct.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
But now you again penalizing somebody for something that they did not do. And I know there's a lot of sense that people in prisons deserve to be there and get what they get and you know, you just can't look at it that… [They’re people - 36:16]--

ROB
No. I mean it's dehumanizing people. It's easy to dehumanize somebody from a distance. But when you get to understand and see the stories of people that have some… who are there and shouldn't be… Some people that are there that should be but actually reform themselves… The point of the system is to be able to reform yourself and come out, not to make people second-class citizens their entire lives.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Exactly.

ROB
That should be the point.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Well you know that that is exactly what it does, unfortunately, and people make a lot of money off of that.

ROB
Yeah. That’s the issue, yeah.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
When you listen, I think that what we'll end up seeing is their… Prison populations are just so vulnerable because they are completely and totally enclosed and they do not have the ability to come and go. But it also creates an opportunity where they are not exposed to the general public and they should be the most protected more than anybody. And whatever it is that the state is doing should maintain that especially with people coming in and out and ensuring that the folks… the guards and the corrections officers and the vendors are not bringing something in and further endangering these people's lives. And then who knows what medical care they'll get while they're there?

So it is an interesting and unfortunate sense. And I think that when we come out of this, we'll see a lot of states are going to have some crosses to bear with lawsuits from family members when prisoners have been infected and harmed because they just didn't take the requisite steps.

So the ACLU has been leading this charge. And if anyone can get connected with the local chapter of the ACLU and they are constantly on the governor saying, “What is your plan? How are you going to do this and…” That kind of pressure helps because people don't tend to think about, “What about the folks in prison?”

ROB
The Alliance for Safety and Justice is on that, too. They’re a sponsor of the show.
LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yes, yes, yes.

ROB
They've been really big about this, too. So yes, it needs to be considered. Unfortunately, Leader Sykes, many don't think of it that way and don't understand the need for the humanity. But then there's really self-interest reason too because if you don't stop the spread there, you're not going to stop the spread.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
No. No, absolutely not.

ROB
To me, that’s really what people need to understand. A little bit more focus on vulnerable communities then I’ll wrap up with a couple of other questions. I know you have had some work to try to end domestic violence. What are your concerns and what do you think needs to be done to make sure that domestic violence doesn't peak or doesn't get worse at a time like this when the government… because for the reasons you've said, it hasn't really looked towards investing in a long-term. We know that they don't invest in areas like domestic violence support like they should because… We can't even get them to do unemployment conversation.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Mm-hmm, nope.

ROB
So what's your message right now for that and what needs to be done?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So that one is working with people who are experiencing violence in their homes. This is worst case scenario. I mean just hands-down, worst case scenario. Everybody is not safe at home.

And having to live with your abuser is already stressful and problematic and dangerous and now you are forced to and you can't find solace or escape in work or school from either the abuser or the person who is victimized by it. I can't even begin to think what this is like for people in situations like that.

Across the state, there are networks of shelters where people can go to but nobody ever wants to go to a shelter. We’re always trying to encourage victims that there are safe places for them but they want to be at home. They want to be at their home free of violence and they should get that but they don't get it.

What we've been trying to do is share with people resources -- the domestic violence hotline or their local domestic violence shelters -- where they can talk about safety planning and discuss what are the things that they can do to keep themselves if they must stay at home with their abuser or what is it that's going to trigger the, “I have to get out of here and go someplace else” and then where do you go? What do you take with you?

So safety planning is a tool where you can work with a caseworker or just talk through someone. How do I get money? What keys do I need? How do I take the kids with me if you have them, if you have animals? That's always an issue because abusers like to use animals and kill them quite frankly because… It's not as much consequence for killing an animal as it is a human so they’ll kill the animal trying to get to their partner.

And so going through safety planning with someone or even on your own, if you don't have it, and thinking through all of these things that, “If something happens and I got to get out of here, how am I going to do it? What is my window of opportunity and then where do I go?” And that is a hurdle that I just don't even wish on my worst enemy. I am nothing but prayerful for people who are currently in situations where they are not safe at home.

I had this conversation with a colleague earlier and we were talking about law enforcement and how do they enforce these orders and what do we think about the crime rates and I said, “I think we'll see a decrease in crimes like DUIs and traffic violations but you will see an increase in domestic violence,” hands down, and it is just because people, one, are forced to stay inside and all of those power dynamics will show themselves or it'll be a fight just because people are not used to spending that much time with one another. We keep saying, “Stay safe at home” -- home is not safe for a lot of people.

My heart also goes out to kids who look forward to going to school, to eat and to get away from whatever it is at home and now they don't have that opportunity. It’s just so sad.

And we don't have a lot of good answers to all of these things because I can't sit through with the child and safety plan with him or her. I could do that with maybe an adult victim. But those kids are probably missing out on that structure, that regularity, a teacher who actually encourages them and tells them that they're worth something. They are not getting that either. So there's a lot of vulnerable populations who need our help and we need to continue to think about an uplift and provide services for.

ROB
Yeah. I agree with that. A couple of questions on a whole different take. So you've been living sort of the quarantine life as much as you can, still doing your job as a public servant. You got any funny moments to share that things have been different on this with you staying at home? Any interesting stories?

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Probably not. Really, for me, I am an introvert and I like to be at home and considering that I'm always--

ROB
It's funny. You’re a public servant but you’re an introvert.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah. Right. Something that [people can’t believe - 43:39].

ROB
You’re a fake extrovert, in other words.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yes, total fake. So this has been really nice for me to be at home and experiencing--

ROB
You’re like, “Hallelujah. Thank you.”

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah. It’s good. It’s an opportunity to take a breath away and to really just be thankful for all the things that I have, that I have a home that's safe and comfortable. I have no complaints. And I’m always thoughtful of the people who do have so many issues and this is just not a comfortable situation for them. All these people want to do these Zoom conferences and the last thing I want to do is take my hair down and brush it for 15 minutes and just to put it back up knowing I can't get my hair done in a couple weeks. So that is my biggest concern--

ROB
And we're not going to judging. We're not going to judge you. If you can’t have your hair down, I wouldn’t care.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
I'm sure you wouldn't. But we… everyone and I talked to a lot of folks and you talk about things that are really culturally-specific… and as I'm talking to people in leadership positions, you guys think about the culture. I mean everybody's culture is insane. You know people are still getting their hair and nails done. You got to get somebody to say, “You can't keep doing this.”

ROB
No.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
People are still getting their lineups. So when everyone comes up from out of this, we'll know who's been following that stay-at-home or looking at--
ROB
[Laughter] You look too good. You’re following the “Stay at home.” You’ve been doing your hair done.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Yeah, exactly.

ROB
[Indiscernible - 45:03].

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Like, “I know you don't know how to do your nails.”

ROB
[Laughter]

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
So that'll be an interesting thing. It’s been kind of funny especially with those things, if people talk about their roots and the edges and what their hair color is going to look when they come out of this. When I was in college, I knew how to do my hair. Now I don’t know how to do a single thing. Now I’m remembering how to do it because I had to do it all the time.

ROB
You might get that skill back.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
I have to get the skill back. It'll be like muscle--

ROB
I’m becoming a much better… By the way, I'm a good cook. I'm becoming a phenomenal cook now. -- Go ahead.

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
I hear you. So I'm going to get that muscle memory back in. [Inaudible - 45:41] happened. It will be all right for my next conference when I take these girls back down [inaudible - 45:47]. [Laughter]

ROB
You got to get your AK on and go to your conference. You know--

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
That's right. You have to learn how to do the body bounce so I had to go back to my roots.

ROB
[Laughter] Oh man. Final question: “What message would you give people to be encouraged? What do you think is positive that is going to come out of this if you were… Obviously, there’s a lot going on. People are losing their jobs and people are nervous. People are fearful. What message of hope and optimism do you have for them going forward?’

LEADER EMILIA SYKES
Thank you. That's a good question to end on. I hope that people leave out of this experience with a new renewed sense of community. We have been so polarized in the last three years with a leader in the White House or a person in the White House -- not a leader -- a person in the White House who has made it their mission to divide and conquer this country.

And as you said earlier, the coronavirus is… it knows no racial, gender, economic, geographic lines -- none -- and so there's very little to do to protect yourself besides following the same directions everybody else got to follow and making sure that you're staying away from people. And everybody is being impacted in some way.

So this is a reminder to people that while you might think that you've made it, something like a virus will take anybody down. It doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter what the color of your skin looks like; how big your house is, a teeny tiny microscopic virus can take you out.

So the sense of community that I feel is starting to be reinvigorated and encouraged again. I hope that sustains because we are truly linked to others in a way that some people like to forget once they make it.

And me staying at home means that my family members are safe. And me staying at home is taking care of somebody else's family members. And we have to start thinking about our actions in that way, that it is not just always about us and what we want to do in these moments, that our actions impact others. If you want to go back to our science lecture, every action has an opposite and equal reaction. So if you put out good, you will get good and why not do that? We have to find our way back to that.

I don't know how long this is going to last and how much longer we will be forced to live in this new world. But I do hope that when we come out of this, we remember that we are linked. And we've got to start thinking about one another as brothers and sisters or perish as fools.

ROB
Well that's well-stated. Drop the mic. Leader Emilia Sykes of the House Minority Leader, thank you for all you do. Thank you. Don't make yourself a stranger. We love to have you back on.

And if you're a regular listener, please like, subscribe, share. And we're going to have you on again. Thank you, thank you, thank you for all you do.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]