“The keepers of the status quo that brought us mass incarceration, the over-criminalization of poor black and brown people, tough sentences, no redemption and no second chances won't give up their power quietly. Let us recall that the individuals making decisions about who's going to be charged, what they're going to be charged with, what sentence, recommendations they're going to make, 95% of those prosecutors in this country are white. 79% are white men. And as women of color, we represent 1% of all elected prosecutors in the country. Our very presence challenges the status quo.” -- Marilyn Mosby

-------------------

ROB
My special guest coming on is State Attorney Marilyn Mosby with the City of Baltimore. Now if you don't know much about her case, you should. She is a disrupter. She is an innovator. She fits in with this show and our concept. We are about disrupting common narratives and constructs and we like to highlight those who are disrupting and making a difference for good. She's one of those people.

Nearly all the world knows about George Floyd -- how he was killed. For 8 minutes and 46 seconds, his life was drained out of him. Many may not remember though Freddie Gray. Freddie Gray was the George Floyd before there was George Floyd. And Baltimore was that place before Minnesota was. And before that, there was Ferguson. Before that, there was here in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is the same pattern -- different day, different decade.

It’s been very hard to hold police accountable. It's very hard to do because the culture of policing doesn't allow that to happen. We are used to seeing those who are police officers only as enforcers of the law and not as violators so when officers violate the law, there are many that can’t see that.

The second part of that is that, of course, most of the time, we're talking about a situation where the life taken was a person of color -- was a black man, was a Latino. And the dehumanization plays into that.

But after George Floyd, something awoke in this nation. It looks like people are starting to recognize that there has to be change. But Marilyn Mosby was making that change before it was popular; before people recognized it. And she's paid the price for it. She's had death threats. Her family has been threatened. She has been threatened. But she doesn't allow that to internalize because she recognizes that she's here to make change and she doesn't let anything get in the way of the mission.

And that's why I hope you really enjoy this content, that you learn something from it. And I hope you will go and support her. You can look up Marilyn Mosby. She needs support because she certainly is going to get a lot of political backlash.

Disruptors are liked but they're liked after the fact. In the middle of it, while you're serving, it's tough. So I applaud her. I applaud what she's doing. I applaud what she's doing to change the narrative, to change the construct, to change what power looks like, to change what prosecution looks like here in this nation. Without any further ado, Marilyn Mosby. -- State Attorney Marilyn Mosby, it’s an honor to have you on Disruption Now. Thank you for coming.

MARILYN
Thank you for having me, Rob.

ROB
I want to get right into it and really get to your “Why” and how you started off knowing that you wanted to be a prosecutor. There's not a lot of people, particularly black women, that know they want to be prosecutors at age 14. But you have a very compelling and just actually very sad reason of watching some tragic things happen to your family.

My understanding is your cousin was killed outside of your family home when you were young and that's how you put in your mind that you wanted to be a prosecutor. Walk me through how that still influences your frame of thinking and how that really frames your worldview in being a prosecutor particularly being a prosecutor that's an African-American woman.

MARILYN
At 14 years old, I grew up with my cousin who lived right next door to me, like brothers. We lived across from my grandparents. We're a very close family… large family in Boston, just like very many people of color in urban cities to go all across America.

I grew up in what was called the “Police house.” My whole family -- my grandfather, my uncles, my mother, my father -- everybody was police officers. And you somewhat feel sheltered, in some sense, until I was 14 years old.

My cousin, who grew up with me like a brother, was killed right outside of our home when he was mistaken as a neighborhood drug dealer. It's an image that to this very day is still very much branded in my mind. I opened up the door and saw him lying in the streets. But if it wasn't for a neighbor who cooperated with police, testified in court, my family wouldn't have received any sort of justice.

Having to go into the court rooms and seeing my cousin with all these dreams, all these aspirations just going to a grave, I was perplexed at this system. This young man was also only 17 years old and he threw his life away.

But I was also very intrigued at 14 years old because I had gone into the police stations -- but never gone into the courtroom -- and seeing a number of African-Americans coming in and out in chains and shackles. I said, “What is this system and how do you reform it? How could we have gotten to that young man before he elected to take my cousin's life?”

The way that the Prosecutor's Office dealt with my family, they helped us through the grieving process. I said, “This is a system that needs to reform.” I wasn't sure that I wanted to be a prosecutor at 14 years old. I knew that I wanted to reform this system that clearly was disproportionately impacting communities of color.

And it wasn't until I got to law school and had the awesome opportunity of clerking for the US Attorney's Office in Boston, the US Attorney's Office in DC, Suffolk County homicide unit and then served as a criminal defense attorney -- fourth-year student criminal defense attorney -- that I understood the power and discretion of a prosecutor and how important systemic reform is. But systemic reform takes place from within. I said, “This is a powerful way to be able to reform the criminal justice system.”

ROB
Now you said how the prosecutor and others dealt with your family during the process. Was there were some things that you thought… I’m assuming the prosecutor was white that was dealing with you.

MARILYN
Mm-hmm.

ROB
Was there some disconnect even if the prosecutor, he or she, was doing their job? Was there something that you saw that was like, “Okay, this can and should be done differently”?

It sounds like there was something there. You said “how you dealt with the process.” Obviously, it sounds like you saw, which is great, the fact that you didn't become jaded by this and say, “Okay, I need to become a prosecutor to make sure people like this get locked up all the time” -- because that can be easy for you to have because when you're a victim of crime, it hurts.

It's understandable. I think it's not a great way to go but it's understandable. People go from the mode of, “Okay, all criminals are bad because I had an experience with a criminal so all people must be this way.”

I’ve asked myself a lot of questions. One, how did you prevent yourself from becoming to that point because I can say it could easily reach that way. When you see something like that done, that has to have some impact. How did you have the ability to step back and say, “It's the system that's the problem, not necessarily this one individual that's affecting me at this time”? Does my question make sense?

MARILYN
It does make sense. I definitely had a prosecutor and a Victim Witness advocate that exhibited a level of compassion for me and my family, helped us through that grieving process and the court process which is very different as a victim or the next-of-kin of a homicide victim than actually being, like I said, at a police station and going in to court and watch your parents testify. So it was. That level of compassion was something that we definitely needed to help us through the grieving process.

But I didn't determinate the decision of being a prosecutor and reforming the criminal justice system at 14. You are, at 14, very much still… You’re just in so much pain and trying to figure out how to process what you are experiencing. But what I did understand at 14 years old is that the system was disproportionately impacting communities of color, that my community, for some reason, was not outraged by seeing yet another black man with all these dreams and all these aspirations being slaughtered in the streets.

So it was at that age that I really started to think about, “What can we do to reform this system” -- because this system is impacting black men, not just in Baltimore but all across this country. What can we do differently? So that's what started the process for me.

And it wasn't until I got into law school and really understood the power and discretion of a prosecutor. Prosecutors are the ones who decide who's going to be charged, what they're going to be charged with, what sentence recommendations they're going to make. They make a determination if somebody's going to even get in or out of the criminal justice system in the first place. And when 95% of the prosecutors in this country are white and 79% are white men, as a woman of color, I represent 1%.

ROB
You’re a disrupter. You're a disrupter in the 1%.

MARILYN
Automatically. Automatically. But you bring to the table your life experiences. What I understood from our ancestors is that systemic reform comes from within. And if you really want to implode a system, hey, you have to do that from within.

ROB
That’s deep.

MARILYN
That’s why I became a prosecutor.

ROB
People look at it, too. When you think about it, they say, ““System reform,” that's something that's beyond me. I have no control over it. It’s other people. It's those elected officials. It's here and there. I don't have any power.”

But you said it right, “Reform comes within.” Collectively, when we get there is how the system changes but we have to do our part within. And I think that's very well-said and really deep.

Now take yourself back, too, if you can. So you're in law school and you start formulating this thought that you want to be a prosecutor in public service around this time and now you have a whole load of experience, positive, some challenging that you can draw from. And you know a lot of things now that you didn't know, I’m assuming, at whatever the age that was -- 22. What advice would you give your younger self knowing the things you know now at that point and what advice would you ignore from others or even yourself?

MARILYN
It’s really funny that you asked that question. I was part of one of the longest standing desegregation programs in the country where I was bused an hour out of the inner city of Boston to one of the richest towns in Massachusetts where when I first started at six years old, I was the only black child in the entire school.

What I learned at six years old -- imagine being a six-year-old and the bus door is closing and you walking into a building and being the only one that looks like yourself -- is that when the young people would come up to me and they would say, “You go, girl” and I’m like, “I don't talk like that. Why are you talking to me like that,” I could easily have taken an approach and taken offense or I could understand that it wasn't coming from a place of maliciousness. It was due to a lack of exposure.

So very early on, as a baby, at six years old, I understood the responsibility that was on my shoulder. Like I can be stereotypical or I can get angry and offended or I can be a positive representation for black people. I took on that responsibility at six years old.

I can remember that my yearbook, I was president… I’m not president. I was SGA, co-editor of the school newspaper. I was bringing diversity workshops to the school from sixth grade until I graduated in high school. I graduated and I was in honors classes. I was a positive representation of black people.

And I can remember my yearbook quote. You say what would I tell myself? It was a Nikki Giovanni quote. “I would not reject my strength though it's not by choice but responsibility.” That is so incredibly relevant to who and what I represent as the state’s attorney for Baltimore City.

ROB
Why is that important to you? So you’re giving your advice. Think of it this way. This 23, whatever… 20-year-old -- I don’t know how old you were in law school -- probably extremely idealistic about what you're going to do, change you're going to make, how you're going to make it and now with the experience you have… I mean I’m sure you're still idealistic but it also comes with a measure of reality and some pushback that you've gotten.

How does that quote -- I guess your advice you're giving yourself -- how would that have prepared you for what you're going through or what would you want yourself to know based upon that quote or advice? How does that relate? And then, obviously, advice you would reject.

MARILYN
The one thing is, “I would not reject my strength though it's not by choice but responsibility.” It's never been about Marilyn Mosby. It’s about what Marilyn Mosby represents to a criminal justice system where I represent 1% of all elected prosecutors in the country; where I can implode a system and reform a system from within.

I was one of the first prosecutors in Freddie Gray to attempt to hold police officers accountable.

ROB
Yeah. And being first is hard, by the way.

MARILYN
Let me tell you, I know. It comes with harassment and being ridiculed and being mocked and your competency being questioned for years.

ROB
How do you deal with that because you've had that… Sorry to interrupt you. I want you to finish your thought. But also since you're going towards this… You already said that you're a disrupter by nature by being the presence of who you are as being a black woman, being a prosecutor. Only 1% of prosecutors in the country are black females. I think we all agree that you've been given a harder time because of that but you don't allow that to jade you. It sounds like that's part of the quote that you have.

MARILYN
Well it ties back to the quote. You get hate mail. You get death threats. I was sued. When you think of all that has happened… The AP just released a poll last week where they said that the overall general sentiment of Americans has… They’re now aware of police and racial tensions in this country that they were not aware when I made the decision to charge the officers in Freddie Gray.

So I would say to my younger self, and taking it back to the quote, that “Change is hard and people are resistant to change but to keep going and do not reject your strength. It's not about you.” I had to learn very early on not to internalize it. It’s never about me.

ROB
That’s a hard lesson.

MARILYN
It's very hard lesson.

ROB
It’s an ongoing lesson, too, I’m sure. I can say, for me, I’ve had to learn that it's never about me even when someone's acting negative. It's all about them. Even with someone who's racist, it's all about their limitations. But it's easy to take it personally. And you’re right -- removing yourself from the equation and not making it about you will make it easier to deal with it and not react emotionally. I mean I think it’s about that.

MARILYN
It goes even further. It’s not about you. It's bigger than you. It's about what you represent.

ROB
Yeah.

MARILYN
Back to that quote, that high school quote, it's about what you represent. And I can point to several prosecutors, specifically black women prosecutors who have been subsequently elected, who were inspired to run because they saw me in these positions -- Aramis Ayala in Orlando, Kim Foxx in Chicago, Kim Gardner in St. Louis, Rachel Ro… -- all of these women who are now disrupting and imploding the criminal justice system from within. So it's never been about me and understanding that it’s something that takes some time. But that's what I would remind myself.

ROB
So you feel better about where the public is. You once said, “Proof beyond a reasonable doubt becomes proof beyond all doubt when you deal with officers because people are used to seeing officers as enforcers of the law, not violators of the law.” You feel like this is the moment--

I know you dealt with Baltimore, just to make sure our listeners know you dealt with the Freddie Gray case which he had a lot of similarities which I want to get into with this case. And there were riots and demonstrations and protests -- all of the above -- in Baltimore for a lot of days.

I’ve dealt that in Cincinnati. We had the same thing happened. 14 men died in custody from the Cincinnati Police Force up until about 2001. One officer shot and killed Timothy Thomas. He was a teenager. He was wanted for tickets and… Shot and killed him.

This city repeats itself over and over again. We can be here all day talking about the cities and talk about the examples of when this has happened, how often it's happened.

Do you feel like this is the moment though that America is at a turning point, that they really, honestly, are seeing this and understanding the level and the depth in any capacity?

MARILYN
Yes. I’m incredibly encouraged. I’m discouraged by the lack of leadership, federally, but I am so incredibly--

ROB
Yeah, welcome to the club. Yes. Good choice. Say “Amen.” Yes.

MARILYN
I am so incredibly encouraged by the real leaders who have been out there demanding change. The veil of ignorance... I’m a Tuskegee graduate so I’m going to bring it back to my Tuskegee roots.

ROB
All right.

MARILYN
The veil of ignorance regarding--

ROB
[Inaudible - 18:42] graduated from Tuskegee so they'll be very happy.

MARILYN
Okay. But the veil of ignorance regarding police relations and racial tension and police brutality have been lifted from Americans. And this is something in a historical context when you think about the police who have historically been the enforcers of a criminal justice system, that has disproportionately impacted people of color.

It's been that way since we were brought here as slaves -- with the slave codes, with the enforcement of the slave codes, the abolishment of the Thirteenth Amendment where they, in essence, have on the law and in the books that you can dehumanize. And there's an exception for the dehumanization of slavery for those criminals. And then since the definition of “criminal,” we had been defined as criminals.

You look at Jim Crow. You look at the civil rights movement. You look at the war on drugs which we now have confirmed was really a war against black people.

So yes, historically, they have been the enforcers of this system. But you cannot underestimate the power and the dynamic of a prosecutor and that discretion and being able to hold one standard of justice for all. You see what happened in Minneapolis with Mike Freeman. He exacerbated the distrust of that community when he came out--

ROB
He did. He talked about you all the way from Minnesota. Like, “Yeah, we don't want to be like that woman.” Yes, you do. You want to actually hold accountable and have trust in the people. He actually mentioned you. I know you didn’t take it personally.

MARILYN
No, I don't take any of it personally.

ROB
I did for you. I got a little upset just so you know.

MARILYN
But he deflected from his inaction and what he did was exacerbate that distrust. And you look at what Paul Howard did or Stephanie Morales in Portsmouth, Virginia. These are prosecutors who are unafraid to do their jobs. But a lot comes with it. A lot of intimidation comes with having the courage to do your job. So you can't underestimate the power of a prosecutor. But in this moment, I’m incredibly encouraged because we can now take that protest and turn it into a policy.

ROB
Well I think for the first time, Marilyn… It's not AG. It’s “State Attorney Mosby.”

MARILYN
“State Attorney.”

ROB
I’ll make sure to get the title right.

MARILYN
That’s okay.

ROB
For the first time, I think the majority -- and I’m talking about our white brothers and sisters -- are really seeing how policing really works because they're treating them like us.

When I saw that police officer just run over that old white male, let him bleed out, I mean… And then there's been example after example.

And I had some of my white friends, even conservatives, like “This is not a police state.” I calmly responded. I said, “Yes, it is. It's always been a police state at least since the war on drugs for the black community. You are now realizing the reality of how we live, how we have to interact with police.” Again, it doesn't mean we're anti-police. We're just pro-life in humanity. That's all. Right? That’s it.

MARILYN
Correct -- seeking humanity and people. We’re anti-police brutality. At the end of the day, what are we really asking for? We're asking for you to see our humanity. That’s basically what we're asking for -- to matter. In order for all lives to matter, black lives have to matter.

ROB
Isn’t that something, that now black lives matter is not… It took all this to make it not a controversial statement. Like now, people are saying it is not controversial. It should have never been.

MARILYN
I agree.

ROB
The fact that it was controversial should tell you how far we have to go and how much of an issue we have when it comes to humanity and fighting, frankly, white superiority because that's not humanity. That’s saying one person or one entity is better than someone else.

What lesson do you take away? When you compare the Freddie Gray case, how that happened, and the George Floyd killing, what comparisons do you see in terms of how the events happen and what can you take from your experience that can maybe be learning lessons for the nation moving forward, frankly, not only from Minnesota but for others across this nation -- to learn from your experience because you were at the beginning and you were a disrupter. Being a disrupter is… everyone likes to say they are but when you're in it… No one likes disrupters until after the fact.

MARILYN
Nobody likes? [Laughter]

ROB
I mean we like you. We love you.

MARILYN
Yes. No, I agree. I agree

ROB
I’m saying the majority of people do not like. Martin Luther King has… I think it was 30% approval rating or something. Everybody worships him now. And they don't really speak to him accurately but I don’t want to go down that route.

But the point is people do not like people that are challenging the system even when the system needs to be challenged. So kudos to you for having the strength to do it and I’m glad that you do.

But what do you see from your situation knowing that you were on the leading edge of progress? What can you take away from, like I said, the story -- how to apply, how the men… I think the men stories are very similar. But then also what you can take away after the fact to make sure that we are moving towards the right direction when it comes to reform in both policing and with the criminal justice system?

MARILYN
I think that there's a lot that I have to offer. When I dropped the charges in Freddie Gray four years ago, I came out with a slate of police accountability reform proposals. And I said, on the record, as I stood outside of Freddie Gray's home with his family and with my prosecutors that tried their hardest and their damnnest to get a conviction, “I can try this case a hundred times and without these systemic reforms, without these changes in the systems that prevent police accountability, nothing will change.”

Five years ago, when I made the decision to prosecute police… Freddie Gray, an innocent 25-year old black man who made eye contact with police in a high crime neighborhood, had decided to run. He was unconstitutionally arrested, was placed in a metal wagon, head first, feet shackled and handcuffed. His spine was partially severed in the back of that wagon and his pleas for medical attention were ignored. I followed the facts with the law and I wouldn't do anything differently.

That accountability, which wasn't being had in this country when it came to holding police officers accountable for the deaths of black men, that accountability led to exposure.

A week after I charged those officers, the Department of Justice came in, exposed the discriminatory policing practices of the eighth largest police department in the country. That exposure ultimately led to reform.

And even despite the Trump administration that tried to stop it, we now have a federally enforceable consent decree. And because of that federally enforceable consent decree, we have a spotlight on one of the largest police departments in the country.

Although those individual officers weren't held individually and criminally responsible, every single police officer is being held accountable for the actions of a few. And I can point to tangible sort of reforms that were put in place but there are still systems that need to change.

So you look at like the mandates for officers to now seek about all prisoners -- the mandates for officers to call the medic when requested; the use of force and de-escalation policies that emphasize the sanctity of life; the affirmative duty and responsibility of an officer to intervene when their fellow officers cross the line. These are all tangible reforms that were put into place as a direct result of those charges.

However, there were systems at play when we went to trial -- the independence; the need for an independent investigatory agency. No profession should be investigating itself. Police department clearly sabotaged the Freddie Gray case. They had detectives that were witnesses in the case but were assigned to investigating the case.

ROB
And they tried to do the same thing to the George Floyd case with the bogus autopsy -- everything else -- and the report that came out.

MARILYN
Oh no, that’s the toxicology report.

ROB
Toxicology, sorry.

MARILYN
That’s what they do when they want to leak information to villainize the victim. They did a lot of that in Freddie Gray. That's what you do to get your defendant's version and to get sympathy for the police officers. And that's mostly supported by the police unions that come hard against you, politically and professionally.

So inside of the courtroom, the officers often circumvent the communities that they serve. And that's what happened in Freddie Gray. When we tried the first officer, it was in front of a jury. It was a hung jury. Some felt he was guilty. Some felt he was not guilty. It gave us the right to retry him. But what did he do the next time, he picked a judge trial. And then what did the officer do after the judge found him not guilty, he picked a bench trial in front of that same judge. And then the other officer, he picked a bench trial in front of that same judge. So it was one judge that made the determination and did not believe in the theory of the case.

ROB
Which is why, to your point -- very quick. I’ll let you finish -- I tell people it’s more important who your prosecutor is, who your judge is and who your president is. When you talk about, going back to your point, change happens within, it happens locally as well within and not just hoping that--

We obviously need to change the leadership at the top but that won't solve the problem. If you get the best leader that you've ever seen, it won't matter if you don't make the change locally.

This is why it's so important to support prosecutors like you that are willing to use their discretion appropriately, not just lock people away, and also use their discretion when it comes to holding police accountable when they've overstepped the line.

MARILYN
Right, and I agree with you. Often times, there's a debate as to whether an attorney general or an appointed position should go to a prosecutor and should they be the ones handling these police misconduct cases. Absolutely not. Your local prosecutor is elected by the people and is accountable to the people. And if they don't do their job, you can vote them out.

ROB
And you should.

MARILYN
That’s what happened in Ferguson. That's what happened in Chicago. If you don't do your job, you should have to be accountable to the people who have elected you.

But inside of that courtroom, that independence is incredibly important. There were search and seizure warrants that weren't executed. There were evidence that was being turned over to the defendants that weren't turned over to us that we found out in the middle of trial. There were so many ways in which--

No profession should be able to investigate their own especially when it comes to police. So that's incredibly important. Then the blue wall of silence is real.

ROB
It’s real.

MARILYN
That is real. So we would have officers that testify a certain way and once we had to disclose who our witness was, the defense would get to them. And so by the time they testify on the stand, they were like this--

I live in Baltimore -- the home of witness intimidation where the [indiscernible - 29:19] mentality began. The irony of the fact that we want community members to step forward and to be able to put bad guys away but there's a blue wall of silence that prevents colleagues from doing anything.

ROB
That’s a really great point. I never heard anybody make the connection when people say, “Well why won't people step forward in their own communities when you have police that won't testify against other police officers?” Let's be very clear about this. This is why you need substantive cultural systemic change…

MARILYN
Correct.
ROB
…because it's not just… Like when people say it's one bad apple, the issue is… I tell people this. The issue is those bad apples are empowered to do things like kill people. And there's no accountability because the culture… You can't go against the culture.

MARILYN
That’s it.

ROB
And if you try an officer… I’m not excusing officers for not speaking up when they need to but the reality is it's very tough to speak up against your culture when you have to go work for those folks again and again. And the blue wall of silence will shut you out and make your life extremely difficult as a police officer.

MARILYN
You're absolutely right. It's the culture of policing. And what is enforced and exacerbated in that culture are these police unions like the Fraternal Order of Police.

ROB
There’s no question.

MARILYN
They put me on the cover of the Fraternal Order of Police in New York and they referred to me as the “Wolf that lurks” on the front page because they understand the power of prosecutors to be able to apply that one standard and they don't want it. So we got to change that culture. And you are absolutely right because that in and of itself can be intimidating.

Outside of a courtroom though there are still systems that prevent police accountability and we've seen this all across the country. So you have the processes where we have officers that… It's foreseeable that they're problematic like in Minneapolis where you have an officer with 18 internal affairs complaints and yet nobody seems to know. We need to make these processes transparent.

These Brady lists, these Giglio lists, these internal affairs records, we need to make them accessible so that the public knows when and if there are problematic officers in these departments.

We have a number of states that have law enforcement Bill of Rights that make it extremely difficult for police departments to be able to get rid of problematic officers and to fire them unlike what Keisha Lance Bottoms did, mayor in Atlanta. She came right out and accepted the resignation and immediately fired those officers. That doesn't happen.

The officers in the Freddie Gray are still working in the police department because your hands are tied. We have to change these employment contracts that allow these problematic officers to remain.

And last but certainly not least, the other thing that I think that we need to consider is that civilian majority participation on these administrative trial boards. So when it comes to these officers determining what their administrative discipline is going to be, the panel shouldn't be stacked with their colleagues. It should be stacked with community members. A majority of it should be community members.

ROB
Absolutely.

MARILYN
Five of the officers in Freddie Gray were administratively-charged. One wasn't charged because he finally decided to cooperate. Two of them pled guilty and then the other two were acquitted because it's stacked with their colleagues and then the last one was finally dismissed by the police department.

We got to ensure that we have some level of accountability that goes outside of the courtroom, and those are the systems that exists that prevent police accountability.

ROB
That was really great. I have, as we wrap up, really two quick questions. One, you've said it's not about you and you're about the mission, which is great, but you still have a family. It still affects them. Your husband is in public service. You guys are both in public service so you guys both take the attacks. Everybody gets some attacks at some level but yours is another level based upon the things we just went over.

How do you explain this to your kids? It's one thing to say you don't take it personally; it's a lot harder to deal with that when you're talking to your kids and you're dealing with these issues with your kids. How do you walk them through the… Some of this is trauma for you, too. This is a traumatizing moment, too -- what's going on. And I’m sure it’s triggering--

MARILYN
It is. It’s like invoking all sorts of emotions that are suppressed.

ROB
I’m sure. I’m sure it is. How do you deal with it personally? How do you deal with it with your kids? And then I have one more question and then I will wrap up.

MARILYN
I am very blessed. I think one of the reasons why my husband and I are together is because we both are very passionate about changing our communities. He's a public servant. I’m a public servant. But what we try to instill in our children, as very young, they're a part of this process.
My children can tell you the name and each representative for every city council district in the city of Baltimore. They've been in this since they were three and five years old which is when we first started running for office. I think that that's important because they understand that they individually have to contribute to change the trajectory of our communities.

I didn't expose them to the hate and the hate mail and the death threats. My husband was actually described… We got a letter during the height of Freddie Gray where he was described as being shot coming out of my house and how no police officers would respond.

ROB
That’s crazy.

MARILYN
I have a book this big of hate mail and death threats. I didn't expose them to that. They're a little older now and so they see mom on TV and they can kind of put it into context. They have iPads and technologies so they understand what's happening in the world -- the greater and larger sort of global community.

I think that instilling the importance and contribution of giving back to their community is something that they appreciate. I don't know if they can quite understand -- they’re soon-to-be 12 and 10 -- who mommy and daddy are but I think that they will, at some point, appreciate the sacrifices that even they make in order for us to do this job.

ROB
Yeah, kids are amazing. That was awesome. Final question: You have a committee, living or dead -- they can be alive, they can be dead or past us -- to advise you on policy, on life, whatever you want. Who are those three people and why?

MARILYN
I would say the late great Elijah Cummings. Congressman Cummings was a mentor to me, someone I respected. I admire still to this day, very much missed. He was one of the first people I told when I was charging the officers in Freddie Gray, one of the first people I told when I was dropping the charges. He was always there to support me. He supported me against an incumbent to allow me to win the seat.

He just was there and I miss him so dearly. He was just a wealth of knowledge and had a heart of gold and would be there… Everything about him was somebody that I looked up to. I would say also Kamala Harris.

ROB
Oh yeah, that's my girl, too. She's coming on the show, by the way. We're working that out.

MARILYN
Okay. All right. But yeah, Kamala is someone that I admired from afar prior to when I was in law school. She was one of the first and only black women prosecutors in the country at that time. She actually coined the “Smart on Crime” phrase and was doing a lot of progressive things in the height of the tough on crime sort of climate. She was a pioneer in this progressive movement and someone that I love and respect.

When I was on my transition team and going into office, her and her team spent six hours with me just going through what needed to take place. She's always giving up her time and her talent whenever I need her. In the height of Freddie Gray to running for re-election, this woman has been there for me. I just love, admire her strength, her passion and conviction to do her job and to do it the right way -- so her.

And then I guess the last person… Elijah, Kamala and… Who else? I would say somebody closer to me which would probably be my grandmother. She's a woman that was a circumstance… She's a circumstance of her time and could have been any and everything. She was a matriarch of a beautiful family and someone who raised … My mother was 17 years old when she had me so my grandmother raised me like her own. She was always my source of inspiration. So I would say those three.

ROB
All right. Well thank you, State Attorney Marilyn Mosby. I want to thank you for all your work. Know that I appreciate you, that there are hundreds of thousands, probably millions of us that do. I hope to see you one day, hopefully, run for governor or something and help change some things. You’ve already done amazing things. I can't wait to see what you do in the future. Thank you so much for your time.

MARILYN
Thank you so much, Rob. Have a good day.

ROB
You, too.

----------------------

Marilyn Mosby, if you guys got a chance to listen to the whole interview, I was moved and… I think the most important lesson that I took away, and I hope you take away, is that change starts within. It's internal. It's not up to somebody else. It's not up to the president. It’s not up to Congress. It's not up to the Senate. It’s not up to your governor. It is up to you.

Change is internal. Change requires you to be involved. Change requires you to step up. The system can only continue as it is through indifference. We can do a lot more to move things forward.

We're seeing that right now at this moment at this time. People are aware that changes need to occur. People are aware of racism in this country. People were indifferent to it. They were asleep before. And as long as this can last… It doesn't have to last this level. But if we are aware and awake and conscious, that we don't have to accept things as they are now.

We don't have to have a criminal justice system that targets people of color -- that targets black people, that targets Latinos -- simply because it can. That shouldn't be allowed. We should have a criminal justice system that focuses on justice; that focuses on healing. We should have policing in this country that is focused on keeping us safe and recognizing the humanity in all.

I know there are good officers out there. That's not the conversation we're having right now. The conversation we're having is changing the culture of policing. Our police should not be seen as the military.

People in black and brown communities are not enemy combatants. We are citizens. We are humans. We are part of the United States of America -- seeking to be fully part of this, seeking to make sure our humanity is respected. For that to happen, we're going to all have to do more.

Change is never easy. Change is never comfortable. We're going to be going through this for a while. We're not going to arrive at some magic bullet despite any changes but we have to keep persisting. We have to keep moving forward despite the odds, despite the pain, despite the circumstances. We can. We will overcome.

I hope you enjoyed this. If you really did enjoy this, make sure you subscribe to my podcast. You can find me on all podcasts from Spotify to Apple iTunes to Google. You can also look us up on YouTube -- obviously, “Subscribe, Like.”

We'd love to hear more from you. I hope you really enjoyed this interview. I really did. And I hope you took something away from it.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]