[START - 00:11]

ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I'm your host and moderator, Rob Richardson.

JAMES KEYS
I'm James Keys.

CALTON WASHINGTON
And I'm Carlton Washington.

ROB
Look, I'm not sure if you guys have been following but there's a massive pandemic going on in the United States of America.

JAMES
What?

ROB
Yeah. Massive.

JAMES
Nobody told me.

ROB
Nobody told you?

JAMES
No. [Laughter]

ROB
Well look, it doesn't affect everybody to say, [indiscernible - 00:32] so a lot of people can act like it doesn't exist. They can just shelter off in their homes, ignore folks, stay in their own little zones and they don't have to worry about anything else. So this pandemic, for some people, they’re living their best life.

And you probably think I am talking about COVID-19. I am not. I'm talking about racism. The truth is racism is something that we tend to try to run from and ignore and say, “That's a problem of the past” or “That's just somebody else's problem. Why is it my problem?”

Obviously, if you're black, as many are seen, that's not an option you have in your life. You can't change the color of your skin. -- I wouldn’t want to anyway. -- You can't do it so it comes with who we are.

The only people that have that option are not people of color -- not Black people. I’m talking mostly white people. They have the option to stay, to not engage, to not have empathy, to pretend as if this is something that doesn't exist. Right now, this moment has made that obviously harder because it's front and center and everything.

I’ve gone from a range of emotions. I’ve gone from just complete anger to depression to anxiety to being angry again. And then after I went through those emotions, thinking about, “What is it that we need to do at this moment” or “What can we take with this moment” because this is, obviously, with the death of George Floyd… It's not just him. We know that it's happening a lot. We've seen it happen. It's been in the face of folks where they can't ignore it for a very, very, very long time. So I just want to make sure that we talk about it and I want to put this up for folks.

Before we all start, I want to get you guys’ view. I want you guys’ view about this point. And then I'm going to put on this tape from Killer Mike about some things he was talking about in Atlanta because I think it's relevant to what's going on in this moment.

As we speak, there are protests in my city of Cincinnati right now going on. There were protests last night. There have been protests. There's been some that's turning to looting. There's been disturbances -- whatever you want to call it.

This is a flashpoint in the moment that is not just about Minnesota because we know it’s not just happening in Minnesota. It's happening in Ohio. It’s happening in Florida. It's happening in Georgia. And people are fed up and they're upset.

So what was your takeaway in this moment in particular? I think a lot of folks who may not know are looking at this moment and are saying, “Is racism this bad? Is racism getting worse?” So that's my question to everybody else. Do you think racism is getting worse in this moment; is ramping up in the last few years or five or 10 years or is it just exposed more?

JAMES
It's exposed more. Everybody walks around with a camera now so you can see what's going on. If you back up and you look at George Floyd and what happened, if that wasn't recorded then the official story that we would have gotten on that was that this guy was acting crazy and doing all this crazy stuff and the cops did their best to use restraint. It would have been embellished completely. But the video removes all of that.

You see it. Nobody needs to explain that to you. Then you see the visceral reaction that a lot of people have from it. I felt like conversations actually changed, in a good way, since this video has come out. But again, it's not that it's more or it's worse. I would tend to think it was worse in the past but it's just now that we can see it. And people see a lot better than they hear.

ROB
Right. And I’ll say, like in the past, it depends on… I should make my point clear. Obviously, it was worse in the ‘50s and the ‘60s. I think no one can make that objective argument.

JAMES
Or the ‘30s or the ‘20 or the ‘10s or the 1800s.

ROB
Oh yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly.

CARLTON
Well to Jimmy’s--

ROB
I’ll come to you. -- But coming right now, my frame of point was, “Is it better since the ‘80s or is it worse since the ‘80s?” I don't know the answer to that. -- Carlton.

CARLTON
Well, I agree with Jimmy. For one, it's the fact that there are cameras everywhere so we're seeing it more. What I think is the most frustrating to me is that people who were seeing these things are acting like these are one-off incidences. I'm like, “No, fool. This happens every hour of the day all day.” It happens to people like me who are doing well in life. It happens to people who are poor. And it's nonstop. So you're just getting a small sample size of what's happening.

But at the very same time, it's also a little worse sometimes than in previous because it's also gone underground. I prefer knowing who doesn't like me and knowing where I stand with people versus people masking it and being around me all day but actually having these strong feelings when they leave or even while they're around. So I totally agree with Jimmy. People are just getting a little taste of what's happening.

But Floyd is not the only person that got killed by the police, probably even last week. So I’ll take it out of race which I think is why you're seeing so many different types of people out this time, is that this is just… It's an abuse of authority across the board that needs to be stopped. It does happen quite frequently to Blacks and has for years but it's greater than that now. I think it's a little bit more complex.

But I’d rather, again, like to see how you feel about me on the open. I’d rather you call me the N-word to my face than go home to your little rebel flag Nazi memorial that you have in your house and do it like that.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
Let me say something in response to that real quick.

ROB
Go ahead.

JAMES
I think that saying this is about how somebody feels is a cop-out because this isn't about how somebody feels. You can feel however you want. You can dislike whoever you want. This is about people who can't control the way they act. And they act only if you--

If you don't like Black people, that's one thing. Hey, a free country. But if you treat Black people, particularly from a place of authority, when you treat Black people a certain way because you don't like them then you have a problem. That's an antisocial behavior. You need to be able to learn how to control yourself.

And that's the problem is that these guys that we see here in this scenario aren't able to separate their personal feelings from the job that they're supposed to be doing. So they're just not qualified for the job. If you can't separate your personal feelings, regardless of who you like and don't like, treat people when you're operating under the auspices of the law then you need to be able to treat people in a consistent way. If you can't do that then you're just not qualified for that. So forget how they feel. It's how they act. If you're acting on your feelings then get out of that job.

ROB
I actually agree with that. When I saw the tape… I can only watch so much of it. But I listened to it and watched the transcript.

Think about this for a minute: If any of us, anybody watching this broadcast as we speak, had a dog and placed their knee on that dog as the dog whimpered and whined and then the dog died, I would venture to bet that there would have been more outrage for the dog than there is for George Floyd and his death because there are some people that are still trying to justify the death. And it was clear--

JAMES
Hey, Rob, what happened to Mike Vick kind of to your point.

CARLTON
Mike Vick, yeah.

ROB
Yeah.

CARLTON
100%.
ROB
Yeah. I mean that’s what it is.

CARLTON
They’re still mad.

ROB
Yeah. And the point is people get more outraged about dogs. Obviously, we're [??not - 08:19] advocating for dogs to be treated well. We've all been dog owners or are dog owners here, I think, on this show. But it's still a dog and this is a human being. And people can view a human being’s life being taken with such callous and figure out ways to see why that was justified.

As James said, you look at that tape as a human being… At the end of day, race only matters because we make it matter. But people make race matter when you say that you weren't enraged when you saw that. If you're a human being, if you're an American and you weren’t enraged, there's something wrong.

And what you should be saying is, “What can we do to make sure that this doesn't happen?” It's not a one-off. It happens all the time. It's the fear, as Carlton said, that every single Black mother, every single partner of a Black man, every single parent has with Black men that they might not survive a night out if they have an incident with officers.

It's a different reality that is a true reality. Just like COVID, you might be able to have the opportunity to not be a frontline worker but Black people, whether they're rich, poor, all the way in-between, we're on the front lines when it comes to racism and things really have to change.

I want to play this quick clip from Killer Mike. That's the name of the rapper in case some of you don't know. I think some of you do. He's talking from the point of view about what's going on in Atlanta. I think it holds a lot of relevance to what's going on now. So I want to play some of that if I can. I'm going to try to find the screen here for my listeners. Here we go. Optimize… Let me see this. You guys can see it -- because I think he said some good stuff. Let me know if you all--

VIDEO PLAYS
“I watched a white officer assassinate a Black man and I know that tore your heart out and I know it's crippling. And I have nothing positive to say in this moment because I don't want to be here. But I'm responsible to be here because it wasn't just Dr. King and people dressed nicely who marched and protested to progress this city and so many other cities, it was people like my grandmother, people like my aunts and uncles who were members of the SCLC and NAACP and in particular, Rev. James Orange, Mrs. Alice Johnson and Rev. Love who we just lost last year.

So I'm duty-bound to be here to simply say that it is your duty not to burn your own house down for anger with an enemy. It is your duty to fortify your own house so that you may be a house of refuge in times of organization.

And now is the time to plot, plan, strategize, organize and mobilize. It is time to beat up prosecutors you don't like at the voting booth. It is time to hold [Oriole - 11:29] offices accountable, chiefs and deputy chiefs. Atlanta is not perfect but we're a lot better than we ever were and we're a lot better than cities are.

I'm mad as hell. I woke up wanting to see the world burn down yesterday because I'm tired of seeing Black men die. He casually put his knee on a human being’s neck for nine minutes as he died like a zebra in the clutch of a lion's jaw and we watched it like murder porn over and over again.

So that's why children are burning to the ground. They don't know what else to do. And it is the responsibility of us to make this better right now. We don't want to see one officer charged. We want to see four officers prosecuted and sentenced.”

ROB
I think that gives folks at least a good concept of where we're going and kind of outline this. When I look at this moment and we were talking about protesters and… whether protesters… Some say “looting” but I think it's a mixture of everything combined. But even if it is looting, it doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes out of a place of… There's anger behind that, about what's going on.

Dr. King said that those who riot are the voice of the unheard. This is what I say. I don't want to see rioting. I don't want to see looting. What I want to see is a system that works, and it is not working. We have a system that allows the killing of Black men and pretty much has codified that and so I want to see a change.

When we look at what's going on here in Minnesota… because I want to break down some points that I want to go through with all of you and I want our listeners to know.

Minnesota Police Department has been a problem for a really, really, really, really long time. This is not the first case. This is not the first case with this officer. Philando Castile, some of you know, had a registered firearm, was literally telling the officer that, “I am reaching to show you my license for my carry concealed,” and he killed him while he did that, while he was following the law. None of these are exceptions to the rule. Minnesota had problems for a while.

When it comes to the neck restraint… And I want to get you guys’ feedback on this. I want folks to understand how deeply ingrained and how systemic it is.

Neck restraint is actually listed in the Minnesota Police Department as a non-deadly force option. It's in the option so he's obviously going to use this as part of his defense. But it literally said that “Neck restraint shall only apply to the following: On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression or for life-saving purposes or on a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject and if lesser attempts at control would have been less effective or ineffective. Neck restraint should not be used to those who are passively resisting as defined by policy.”

The problem is he’s going to argue he was using that and that there's no other method he could have done. I don't think the evidence shows that. But the fact is it is deeply ingrained. There's a lot I want to go through. Do you think the Minnesota Police Department is the exception in how bad they are or do you think it's commonplace and it's often the rule?

CARLTON
I would be careful with that question because a lot of family members are still in law enforcement -- friends, clients and things of that nature.

I would say it's not the majority of them but the percentage of them that are like that are very bad and they’re overt. My daughter is 19 years old. Her mom is NYPD for, I think, almost 20 years now. She is out there in the streets and she didn't want to be there. She was reluctant to go out there but at the same time, she's telling me, “Hey, pray for me. I got to go out here.” She’s almost at retirement. But at the same time, she's also telling me that there's officers that are itching to go out there and excited about going out there. And all officers, I think, know who those people are. So that's the problem. And the problem is they're not willing to step up and say anything about it.

ROB
That's the issue.

CARLTON
That's a big issue. When I see that this guy is barricaded in his home before the arrest with army of police officers protecting him, that is a really bad sign. This is a time where if you're employed by somewhere, whatever company it is, they do something this egregious, this is the time to stand down. This is the time to not show up to work just like you did with COVID when you called out for sick when you really weren’t. This is time to stand down and let people do what they have to do to get justice.

I don't think they should have been protecting that guy at the house. I think it's a really bad message. And it shows the problem -- you're not willing to call out your fellow employees or colleagues or officers when they're doing this type of stuff. And if you did, the problem would go away really quickly.

ROB
James.

JAMES
Yeah, I agree with that. The issue is the quarter that's giving to the bad apples. If pilots did the same thing, if the pilot showed up drunk and crashed planes all the time or whatever… I guess if they crash planes all the time, the problem would take care of themselves. [Laughter] But if the pilot--

ROB
[Crosstalk] [Indiscernible - 16:56] in the process.

JAMES
But if pilots formed rank around the bad pilots, the ones who endangered lives and gave pilots a bad name, then we would be putting pilots out. You know, like, “Yo!” This is a profession where the good ones close rank around the bad ones.

I think that it's understandable to some degree. It's a fraternity. It's a dangerous job in many cases and so there is a bond there. But I think it's in every police officer’s interest to get the bad apples out -- the ones that want to skirt the rules and deny people their freedoms and who just can't control themselves -- who can't control themselves in scenarios where they're acting on their prejudice or they're doing this and that. It’s in everyone's interest to get those dudes out the [paint - 17:44].

Those dudes shouldn't be doing the job if they demonstrate once that they can't handle the job. You might give them a pass… or not a pass but you might reprimand them and give them one more shot but after that, these guys got to go because you shouldn't have a guy with 8-9-10 incidents. It’s like, “Oh now, he killed somebody.” It's like, “Well hold up. How did we even get there?”

CARLTON
And James, to your point, this is the pilot that crashes the plane.

JAMES
Yeah, repeatedly.

CARLTON
[Crosstalk] [Indiscernible - 18:09].

JAMES
Yeah. And no other profession would we allow that, particularly one where we, as a society, are the ones that hand them the gun and that hand them the authority to tell us what to do, so to speak, and to make us do things. When we're doing that, that's a pretty extreme power.

I'm an attorney and I have to jump through all types of hoops to be able to have the power to subpoena people into court or to do this and that; to use the law as a weapon to go after an adversary of my client. I have to jump through hoops all the time. If I start abusing that then they're going to come after me -- the Bar Association or whoever.

ROB
Correct.

JAMES
So that type of thing needs to be… It’s in everyone's interest, if someone demonstrates that they cannot handle that level of authority, that they are removed from positions of that level of authority. And that's the issue that we don't see happening enough.

ROB
I agree. I think what I would add to that is… It's a little more nuance, I would say, than you both mentioned. I would say it's also cultural. You have to decide what type of culture you want to enforce within your police department but also within your city, within your state.

And I’ll explain this a little bit. This approach to crime that we want to just… We want to have this war on crime. It's not a real war on crime. It was really just a war on Black and brown communities. And then we can just skip process. We just skip the Fourth Amendment. We can skip all their rights. We can have no-knock warrants like Breonna Taylor; going to somebody's house who’s completely innocent; knock on the house and go kill them “because we're trying to make people safe” and take away their liberty. -- I’ll get to you in a second, Carlton.

I just want to say that that is a decision that we made. So what we have to do is figure out what the culture of what we want. Do we want to have this type of law enforcement that says, “Forget about process. Do whatever it takes. And if you're going to get some innocent people in jail, you're going to get some people killed”? Fine. That has been our approach. Whether we admit it or not, in America, our approach has been… That's what we're satisfied with. We defend police officers because it's what we… It's not what I want but I'm saying, generally, society has accepted that.

And then, two, when you have police departments… This didn't happen by accident. I wanted to say that. And I think it's easy to get your culture wrong. And if you're not intentional about having leadership, about how you're going to approach things, how you -- “police people” -- how you work with the community, things that--

Some people think it’s nonsense. They just say, “Who cares about the community? Let me go in there and knock some heads.” That's the way we go to fix problems. I think that leads to more problems. It empowers bad apples. It also makes some good people probably do bad things because they get into groupthink and make mistakes. -- Carlton.

CARLTON
That's a good point that you brought up. And that's what I'm noticing a lot of the time out here is that people look at, culturally, Blacks as criminals and that they should be treated this way.

ROB
Right.

CARLTON
I have overheard officers speak to my friends and say things in a joking way -- they're also finding enjoyment in it -- “going to the hood” and going hunting. They're going hunting. And it's non-stop. It's like shooting fish in a barrel because there's petty crime going on all the time because these people are poor.

JAMES
Everywhere.

ROB
Everywhere.

JAMES
And that happens everywhere though. I mean petty crime is everywhere.

CARLTON
Oh yeah. But--

JAMES
That’s over-policing issues like we talked about where you focus in certain areas and… you know.

CARLTON
Right. Right. And that's what they're doing. They take pleasure in it. And the fact of the matter is these people are poor.

I think you lose a lot of people when you say it’s just a Black thing because to tell you the truth, they’re doing the same thing in poor white areas, too -- in trailer parks and things of that nature. They prey on these people. And the funny thing is, is that people lose sympathy and empathy for these people because they're framed as criminals. They're constantly reinforcing that image on the news of these people as criminals.

And the fact of the matter is a lot of times, the real criminals are rolling by you in a $100,000 car and a suit and tie. I could be driving through Boca Raton with 100 pounds of coke in my Maserati and you would never know… or a body in there. The big crimes are not that blatant. These people are not the smartest. A lot of them are not highly-educated. They're just poor just trying to get by.

So if you think that that's a great career to have rounding them up, putting them in jail, ruining their lives, ruining their families, that's a problem.
JAMES
Yeah.

CARLTON
And to display that on these local news channels every day for all [of our lifetime - 22:48] for the last four years -- that's their favorite story to run -- that's a problem, too.

ROB
Yeah.

JAMES
Yeah.

CARLTON
So when you have this kind of unrest right now and we’re trying to figure out what to do, maybe the unrest needs to keep on, the pressure needs to keep on, until we figure out what to do.

ROB
I may have a question that’s going to pivot to that. -- James, you want to say something?

JAMES
Yeah, there was something I wanted to mention. The Killer Mike clip, anytime we see someone speaking out like that, it’s great to see. Because here’s the reason I want to really… the parallel I want to draw. That’s the type of sentiment we also need from police officers when their rank goes overboard. Killer Mike is calling out saying, “Look, we don't need to be burning our stuff. This is when we need to fortify ourselves. Get ready to go to the ballot box,” things like that.

There's extremists in every group. If you protect 10 people, one of them is going to be an extremist. One of them is going to be going overboard. If you’ve interacted with people, you see that. So the people who aren’t the extremists, the ones who don’t go overboard, it’s their obligation to try to rein back in the people that do go overboard. When you have a thousand people on the street, if 10 people are wiling out a little bit, it’s up to the 990 to be like, “Yo, come on, man. That’s not what we are here to do.”

Now the media will focus on the 10 because that’s what draws eyeballs. So we see the 10 are out of line and we need to try to bring them back and Killer Mike is trying to do that.

That’s what we need from the law enforcement’s side, too; the masses who aren’t like that. When this guy wiles out, it’s like, “Look, dude, you can’t do that. If you’re going to be with us, man, you can’t do that.” It’s called “Self-policing” in many context. You see it in sports team, you see it in corporate cultures that are healthy. And you should see it in society as well. When somebody is going overboard, call them back. Like, “Look, man, we can’t have that.”

So that’s what’s missing. That’s why I’m glad you showed that with Killer Mike because we need more of that right now also with the unrest.

ROB
I agree.

JAMES
Just like, “Look, let’s focus this energy. We understand the pain. The pain is real. I get it. But let’s have counsel to also try to focus the energy.”

ROB
Yeah. And I’ll say this… because I want to get more to what we should do at this moment, how we should use this energy. I want to address the point that Carlton made then I want to move on to another point.

Carlton, like you said, I wish we didn’t have to talk about race. But the truth of the matter is unless we pointed out… These things happen because people don’t see our humanity. People will get outraged. Things will happen. And they view it differently if it was a--

I’ll give you a good example. We have the officer that was convicted for killing a white woman. He happened to be an African-Ame… It was an African--

JAMES
Oh in Minnesota.

ROB
In Minnesota.

JAMES
In Minnesota.

ROB
That’s the first time we’ve seen… one of the few times, I should say, we’ve seen an officer held accountable and it’s ironic that it’s a person of color that’s held accountable.

JAMES
No, it makes perfect sense, right?

ROB
It makes perfect sense, yes.

JAMES
Do you remember what happened in that? This was the one about a white girl in pink where the defense attorney explained to the judge… excuse me, the prosecution explained to the judge saying, “Look, who could find a girl in pink threatening?” The negative implication is that if it’s a Black guy, who could… The prosecutor… Excuse me. They wouldn’t say that to try to defend… The defense attorney in that case would not be saying, “Oh who would ever find a Black guy intimidating?” But it literally was… The defense in that case was, “Hey, who would find this white girl wearing pink intimidating, a threat?”

So like it made perfect sense. That’s how people in our society are wired right now is to see Black men as a threat and to see everyone else’s humanity.

ROB
And to not see ours. And that’s the reason why, Carlton, I think it’s very important for us to talk about race in the terms of… Race is all made up anyway. We know that. It is. But we have to get people to understand that we are humans and we deserve the same type of empathy as you will have for the white woman in the pink shirt. We are human, too. We have families. We bleed. So I do think it’s necessary. I wish it wasn’t. But clearly, it’s going to be necessary until we, in this country, come to a reckoning with race which I never think we have done.

I want to move on to another point talking about the police in Minnesota. We talked about it on this show the importance of prosecutors. This is a complex system as we think about how we move past this moment.

The prosecutor… I don’t have the tape on me but many of you have probably seen it. The prosecutor here on the ground wasn’t even going to charge. He made it clear that…He said, “I think there’s other evidence that shows why this was necessary.” I don’t know what would actually overrule nine minutes on someone’s neck on the ground but that’s neither here nor there.

But the prosecutor said there was other evidence and he didn’t think there was enough to charge here. In two days, he changed his mind. So people looked at it like… I do not encourage violence. I do not encourage looting. But the thing is what changed his mind to make him do that? The pressure was on him to do it. All people want is the system to work. That’s what I want. I am nervous about this prosecutor.

I’m going to open up to you guys. What do you think about what’s going to happen the fact that the prosecutor is already suspicious and already didn’t look like he was going to be there. And what should people take away from this knowing that prosecutors have so much power to maneuver and really dictate the case?

CARLTON
First of all, my question to you would be… Well first of all, I want to make it very clear, I think stealing is wrong. I think looting is wrong. I think that looting and stealing have nothing to do with what has happened here, what has transpired. But my question to you would also be, “Why do you think that violence is wrong?”

ROB
That’s an interesting question together.

CARLTON
What do we use in the United States of America when we want something? When we want to go send a message to someone in Iraq or Afghanistan or in Vietnam or in… wherever in the world, what do we use? We use violence. It’s highly effective to get your point across. And what happens is you use enough violence--

JAMES
Or Carlton… or when we want to protest COVID lockdowns.

CARLTON
Exactly.

JAMES
We use quite of violence.

CARLTON
Exactly. Thank you. And so why would we not use violence to get our point across? People don’t like pain and the only thing most people understand is pain. Pain in their pockets or pain in their face. So when something like this happens… Again, I do not condone stealing or looting.

ROB
Are you condoning violence though?

JAMES
He is saying it’s the American way. [Laughter]

ROB
I’m just trying to ask.

CARLTON
It is the American way. And for our Second Amendment, people out there who are pro-Second Amendment, who’ve been pro-Second Amendment--

ROB
Okay, we’re going to go to that point more so don’t go too far down.

CARLTON
Okay. Just real quick.

JAMES
Go ahead. Go ahead.

CARLTON
To this point, look, that’s what it’s for. That’s what it’s for. We rise up with arms when there’s a situation like this and then you set up some demands and you don’t stop until you get your demands met.

JAMES
It literally is so that the government doesn’t get any ideas.

CARLTON
Right.

JAMES
Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s a good point.

ROB
In theory, you’re right.

JAMES
Yeah. But in practice--

ROB
But in practice--

CARLTON
In reality, I’m right. In reality, I’m right.

ROB
No, no, no. So--

JAMES
Here’s what I would depart from that--

ROB
Hold on, James. Let me just get a point in real quick.

CARLTON
I’m tired of them pull up, people like Killer Mike, and shuffling them out there. -- Hey, Mike, go out there and calm your people down, talk about voting and all this other BS that has never, ever worked for you, and go calm down so don’t tear up our city. You know, hiding [indiscernible - 30:30] bottoms out there in Atlanta also to go protect our property. But really, we’re just perpetuating the same thing over and over again. And just like every other issue that happens, once the flames get put out and the rest are made, everybody goes and forgets about it until the next time.

ROB
All right. Hold on, a few points. You said a lot there in your full emotional… all the way pulled out there. I agree with micro parts and I think some of it has to be taken.

To say voting has never worked and the system has never worked, you wouldn’t be in the position you are right now unless there were some system changes from the 1950s to now. I don’t just say nothing has ever worked. That being said, there are frustrations, and I get frustrations. To my point, people want the system to work. As Dr. King said, it’s between non-violence and non-existence.

There’s a level that people will go to and… -- I didn’t plan to go here but I’m going here now. There’s a level that others will go to that I don’t think… It wouldn’t work for us. Look, if the majority of white people--

JAMES
Basically, Carlton, he’s saying you [want that smoke - 31:28].

ROB
No, no. What I’m saying is… No, no. If all Black people decided to have, I guess… We’ve seen that happen. Those things have happened. On the other side of that, we end up out of the gene pool. We get wiped out. So it’s about non-violence or non-existence. It doesn’t mean non-existence… I mean non-resistance, I should say. That’s why I say like at the end of the day, I don’t condone--

I don’t condone any of it. But you know what, if it’s only looting, and that’s still getting their attention, and it’s not killing anybody in violence and that’s getting your attention… because guess what, they did make the arrest. That happens.

But giving in to violence and saying that we’re going to go out and do it, that is not, I don’t think, going to work for the Black community. We’ve seen that done. We’ve seen those attempts. You can go to Philadelphia and see they bombed the whole building.

At the end of the day, there’s more guns out there and… You can murder a murderer but you can’t murder murder. That doesn’t solve the issue.

CARLTON
Hey--

ROB
I just don’t think… Now, getting to a point of, “Do I think we should have second amendment rights,” let’s talk about what the present occupant of the White House said because I think--

JAMES
Hold on. Hold on. I want to get in on this before we move on to the Second Amendment.

ROB
Go ahead.

JAMES
I know André 3000 said way, way back, “They got some stuff that will blow out our back from where they stay at.” I mean that’s interesting in a sense to me that--

This is going to sound like it’s a Black and white point but it’s not. It’s more of a majority and a minority point. If you’re a minority in a society then arms, generally speaking, is not going to be your way to make change just because there’s less of you than there is the majority, by definition. And that’s in any scenario. Like when you’re going from “powerful” to the “oppressed,” the oppressed, generally speaking, is not going to be by taking up arms.

So while I appreciate your point, Carlton, I’m just saying, if you’re looking to be effective, I mean… And I’m not the one who came up with this. Dr. Martin Luther King was looking at this. He looked at the calculus and was like, “All right, we go this way, we’re going to die. We go this way then it’s going to be tough. It’s going to be slow but we have a chance to really make some change.” So when you’re coming from--

Always, when you’re evaluating any situation, you have to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses. You have to evaluate your vulnerabilities, your opponents’ vulnerabilities, your adversaries’ vulnerabilities.

ROB
Yeah. That’s the art of war -- strategy.

JAMES
Yeah. So--

ROB
We’re talking about… This is war. This is strategy. What’s the most effective plan?

JAMES
This isn’t theory where it’s like… Yo, yes, the American way is to use force and carry a big stick, so to speak, and make things happen. We’re a subset in that. And we have to keep in mind, again, where our vulnerabilities are; to what extent the people who we would be taking up arms against would go to and so forth. So I think it’s shortsighted and it’s taken a narrow view to just say violence is what works.
CARLTON
Malcolm said, “The price of freedom is death. I mean it’s simple as that. He never got to expound upon it but there’s some truth to it.

I’ll tell you what. I mean this episode that’s going on right here, this is probably one of the most escalated that we’ve seen in 40 years and it seems as though like each one gets a little bit worse. This time I’m seeing not only… I’m seeing Black and white gun groups out in this protest together.

If there’s no resolution to this and it keeps on escalating and then it goes down and we have a trial, the next one, based upon what we’re seeing right now, I think you’re going to get there. That’s what we’re looking [crosstalk] [inaudible - 34:56].

JAMES
Yeah, it will continue to… Everybody should have listened to Kaepernick. Kaepernick was trying to warn us. You know, “Yo…“ Non-violence--

ROB
Let’s go to a good point. Let me say this and I’ll bring you in this, James. The present occupant in the White House put out a tweet which… Again, I want to make it very clear, I don’t think violence is ever the right move. I think there are a lot of strategies to get you to a point. They’re tough. But understand that people are willing to use violence and--

The present occupant of the While House, essentially, told… Not “essentially.” He told folks from Twitter… He encouraged people to go out there and shoot folks. “Shoot those thugs.” Very interesting that these protesters are called “Thugs” but on the other hand, when people were protesting COVID-19, they were “Good people.”

JAMES
They’re “[Good leaders - 35:43].”

ROB
Yes, exactly. What do we take with that -- the difference in language -- “Protesters” and “Thugs,” one. Then two, back to Carlton’s point, do we try to look at the Second Amendment differently? And I’m not talking about in terms of instigating violence but in terms of self-protection and self-defense. I’m open to that conversation. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Thoughts.

JAMES
Go ahead, C. I know you’re ready to--

CARLTON
That’s what it’s there for. I think it’s very interesting that over the years, Blacks have been conditioned to be anti-Second Amendment. Everything that’s good for them--
ROB
You and Killer Mike agree, by the way, on this.

CARLTON
Yeah. I like Killer Mike. Hey, I’m a fan of “Run the Jewels,” man. But sometimes, I really don’t like the fact that he’s taken this corporate stance with Bernie and [indiscernible - 36:33], all that. I mean you really got to stay away from those folks because it’s dangerous and they have political motives behind it.

Honestly, I resent the fact that Black people look at gun ownership as a bad thing and therefore, they lose leverage. And that’s, once again, why they’re treated that way. Because look, when you’re patrolling what they call a “bad neighborhood,” the “ghetto,” the “hood,” the “bad part of town,” a lot of these things that you see happening wouldn’t happen if you surrounded these people with Dracos in your hand or AKA-47. But hey, [crosstalk] [inaudible - 37:09]--

ROB
Wait. Why do… Wait. Wait. Wait.

JAMES
But you can look to history to that though, man. That’s not necessarily the case.

ROB
That’s not true. Well that’s not true because--

CARLTON
[Inaudible]

ROB
Wait. Wait. Wait, Carlton. In those areas, some people have guns and are strapped up. Lots of them--

CARLTON
No, no, no. My point is--

ROB
That’s not always true.

CARLTON
My point is not the right people, going back to what Jimmy was saying, is that those are the people that we need ostracize because a lot of times, those guns are being used for crime. I'm talking about guns used for protection for the Second Amendment.

JAMES
This was the whole Black Panther movement.
CARLTON
Right. Exactly.

JAMES
Interestingly enough, one point… Actually Tunde, who is not here today, Tunde made a week or so ago was just that the… One way, if you don't like the Second Amendment, the best way to roll that back is to get a bunch of Black people to lawfully carry guns because that's literally what happened in California…

ROB
Literally.

JAMES
…when the Black Panthers started doing it and they started--

ROB
Just putting history, everybody look it up, Ronald Reagan instituted this in California--

JAMES
The strict gun control laws in California, it was done by Ronald Reagan in response to the Black Panther.

ROB
That will surprise people when they see that. Sure.

JAMES
Hold up, Carlton. I just want to get that point in. But see the thing is, is that we've seen this play out. Like you're saying that like this hasn't played out. What happens then is you get the SWAT team running up in to people's houses as they sleep, of these people that are standing around holding the guns lawfully. We've seen that stuff play out. I don't know that that's the answer.

Look, I'm open to a lot of different thoughts and suggestions but I will push back when I see things, “Oh that was tried and here's what happened. How do you account for that?” So if that's what you're proposing then how do you account for the blowback? Like if you're just having people standing around with guns, those people can still be targeted. Those people still sleep.

ROB
And let me just say, they will be like--

JAMES
Yeah.

ROB
Let me just say, the fact is that protesters who are Magda supporters can go into state capitals with AR-15s. If hundreds of Black people walked with AR-15s, they wouldn't make it that far. That's why they don't do it. It's not because they don't want to or don't have that information--

JAMES
When Black folks showed up unarmed, they get the riot gear.

ROB
We still get killed.

JAMES
Yeah. You get the riot gear. You get the tear gas -- all that.

CARLTON
I would like to make… First of all, I support those Magda supporters that ran up in the Capitol building with guns. Like I said before on previous shows, I also believe that those people would join with Blacks with guns for the same thing. And I don't necessarily agree that if you had peaceful protests with armed… people protesting with arms, that that's necessary going to happen.

JAMES
You're ignoring like a 160 years of history, man. History has shown when Philando Castile got killed, there weren’t the Second Amendment people out supporting him.

ROB
No. They're not coming.

JAMES
Besides… They’re not coming.

[Crosstalking -- Indiscernible]

ROB
I’ll just look at the evidence on the ground.

CARLTON
But you know what…

ROB
I don’t want to spend too much time here.

CARLTON
…we’ve never asked them either. We’ve never asked--
ROB
That’s not true. That’s a lie. I mean they actually directly asked people. There was a line of appeal with the Philando Castile.

JAMES
Yes.

ROB
It was silence from the folks. But look, I want to move on to really--

As we talk about what we need to do, this prosecutor on the ground, I am worried about what's happening there. And I think people need to understand -- I’ve said this before -- that who your prosecutor is is more important than your president. It does matter for voting but it matters across the board--

And I'm not just talking Democrat-Republican because I want to make sure I’ve made my point about the present occupant of the White House when I think there was irresponsible language. I think republicans, democrats, anybody with conscience, that doesn't believe in violence should step up when they see statements like that because they're very dangerous. What you say has an effect. What he says is emboldening folks.

But on the other side… Let's talk about it from the democratic side. It's not like these incidents of police brutality and police violence happen in “red states” only or in red districts.

Minnesota is considered to be a fairly progressive state. Minneapolis is considered to be a fairly progressive area. That being said, there's no denying that there are systemic problems with the police force.

Amy Klobuchar who ran for president and who is the potential vice presidential nominee had about 20-plus incidents in front of her dealing with excessive police force. And guess how many times she prosecuted? Zero. What was done is she would take the case to the grand jury--

Just get a little bit nerdy for just one second. A prosecutor has the choice to bring a case directly. Say, I believe that the evidence is here, I'm going to go and prosecute the case. That's what this current prosecutor did, only I think, out of the pressure. They can also do what's called “Bringing in front of a grand jury” where the jury comes, they present evidence. And none of us ever know what they present, how they present it and what happens.

And more often than not, every single time that happens, when you deal with the police officer, the grand jury, surprisingly -- not “surprisingly” -- they never usually charge because… We don't know what happens but when you [crosstalk] [indiscernible - 42:15].
JAMES
That’s how it’s presented. It’s presented in a way that they won’t charge.

ROB
Right. Correct. So getting back to that point, are democrats failing just as much as conservatives on this? And if so, I’d like to hear comments.

JAMES
Yeah, of course. The problem is the overall disregard for the humanity. Like to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Well many times in our justice system, to the prosecutors or to the law enforcement officers, every criminal is guilty. In many ways, they're judged-based on that. You know, “How many convictions do you get,” things like that. So it's set up in a way that--

And this goes to… I forget who's making this point. But it's set up in a way where the way we're looking to treat people is just to run them into the system, ruin their lives -- like the people are the problem as opposed to the circumstances that we need to try to make better, to try to bring more people into compliance. So in terms of fair--

Execution of the law is not really a democratic or a republican issue. It's a person-to-person issue and so we need to hold everyone accountable. This isn't, “Oh we got a democrat in office. We're all good to go” or “Oh Republicans in office; law and order, we're going to be…” No, no, no. It's each individual one. It's how they're treating this, how they run on treating and then how they actually treat it in terms of the objective here.

You can't just lock up everybody and solve crime that way. That's not how it works. You have to create scenarios where there's less crime and then you have the people who are on the fringe who are just going to do bad stuff. That's what the jail is for. But for most people, that's not it.

ROB
Yeah, Carlton, I would say my framing of the issue is, oftentimes, conservatives will say in bold and crazy things to be said and democrats just won't say anything or run scared and not actually make the change but pretend like they are, say the right things. But when you look at the policy, you look at the effect, things aren't that different. What's your thoughts?

CARLTON
The Democratic Party is a weak and ineffective group that panders to Blacks at times when they need votes and that’s about it. That’s what you’re always getting with them. Honestly, they’re way more effective for lesbians and gays and any other group than Black people.

The only time they show up is when it was time to start getting busses of seniors and Black people from the hood for free lunch to go to the polls -- use them, abuse them, “Get what we need” -- and then we’re back to doing whatever BS they’re doing which is why I can’t identify, personally, as a democrat right now and I don’t see why most Blacks do.

JAMES
You know, it’s interesting, Carlton, to know… Hold on.

CARLTON
They take your vote for granted and they’re highly ineffective. And they give nothing in return.

JAMES
You know what it sounds like what you just said? It sounds like how the Republican Party was with the white supremacists up until Trump. That’s literally what the Bushes did and things like that. Maybe that’s just how politics works. And we, as people, just need to do a better job of holding the people that we vote for accountable while they’re in office because--

ROB
I would agree.

CARLTON
But--

ROB
Hold on, Carlton because I want to get to a point you said then I’m going to let you come back.

I agree that oftentimes democrats are ineffective and weak because… You heard me say that on the show. That being said, I will be remised if I didn’t talk about differences in terms of policy and--

Well the most important thing is judges. Most of the time, conservative judges have implemented and emboldened these laws to allow prosecutors to do whatever they want to on Supreme Court to be able to get rid of Fourth Amendment rights so that we don’t have any rights. When I look at that… That is one of the central reasons that I have differences with the parties -- because of that. They don’t do enough. And I will go back to, really, James’ point that--

And I think you have some legitimate points. But I would say we got to work more to hold folks accountable. A lot of times, people will just say, “Okay, we got a democrat in office. Now we can relax.” It doesn’t matter who’s in office. You hold them accountable. And if you get some republicans that are willing to do some good work, you give them credit. And if democrats are working on your behalf, you hold them accountable. Do both.

JAMES
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. There’s an elephant in the room we have to address though. The Democratic Party has gotten complacent and lazy when it comes to Black folks.

ROB
Absolutely.

JAMES
But the reason for it is because the Republican Party is actively hostile to Black folks.

ROB
Yep.

JAMES
Joe Biden said this the other day to Charlamagne, he was like, “Come on. This guy…” He didn’t say this explicitly. He’s like, “This guy is out there promoting white supremacist. I’m not doing that.”

ROB
That’s what he said. And he says much more clever. Go ahead.

JAMES
The Republican bar is so low in terms of--

ROB
That’s true.

JAMES
Hey, they’re actively hostile to you. Democrats are like, “Hey, we may not stand up for you but we’re not actively hostile to you.” Well that is oftentimes the best alternative.

ROB
Yeah. But we need more--

JAMES
You got to put that frame on it.

ROB
I agree.

CARLTON
You know what though? I think that it’s interesting that you say that because I have found the opposite. I have found that when you infiltrate conservative groups in politics, they’re actually much more supportive to those involved than democrats.

ROB
They don’t say that loud.

JAMES
Why don’t you tell that to Stephen Miller in the White House…

ROB
Yeah, white supremacists.

JAMES
…or Stephen... in the House of Representative? Why don’t you tell that to a lot of the people who… If you walk in to the room, you better be serving drinks or else you got to get up out of there [inaudible - 47:29].

[Crosstalking -- Indiscernible]

CARLTON
But look, [inaudible]--

ROB
Carlton, how do you justify… Like there are literally white supremacists in the White House openly…

JAMES
Literally, self-identifying.

ROB
…literally, talking about it. And that’s the problem I have. See, this is not a normal White House. We had George W. Bush who I disagree with on a lot. He came out and said, “We need to be more unified” and he said some things that I agree with. Trump said, “No. Go away. You’re an idiot.” This is different.

CARLTON
We already covered… we covered just how--

ROB
I think we have to call out the humanity.

JAMES
I have a different perspective on that. But go ahead, C. I mean I had to push back on that. You can’t equate it to.

ROB
I agree.

CARLTON
We simply covered this is in the beginning of the show where… I agree. There are some white supremacists out there. But again, I would rather deal with a white supremacist than some pretending democrat who just is manipulating--

ROB
You would rather deal with a person that wants to kill you.

CARLTON
Look, I would rather--

ROB
I’m trying to understand what you’re saying.

CARLTON
No. What I’m saying is I would rather be transparent. And I feel like the same sentiment is in the Democratic Party but it’s just hidden.

JAMES
No. I mean, look… Then look at voting rights and how that’s implemented and who has taken away voting rights from Black folks and who’s trying to restore voting rights for Black folks.

ROB
Yeah. I think we have to be equivalent--

JAMES
It’s not even a comparison, man.

CARLTON
Yeah. [Crosstalk] [Inaudible - 48:44] because they’ve been…

JAMES
The Republican Party has been barred… Hold on. Hold on. The Republican Party has been barred for decades from showing up at the polls to intimidate Black folks. Interestingly enough, the court just overturned that and so we’ll see what happens in [??2010 - 48:56]. It’s not even a comparison.

I agree with you. You should be upset about the level of complacency but the complacency is for a reason. They’re looking at the other guys like, “Geez. These guys are crazy.” I’m not saying that complacency is good. I’m just saying that it’s there for a reason. It should be overcome.
ROB
And we should do more to hold folks accountable. But I want to move on to another point.

JAMES
Yeah. Let’s not go to--

ROB
And I want to just get ready to close, to have some thoughts about what we actually do with this moment. I think people need to understand--

I have a video up here of an encounter with a guy… I’m trying to remember the guy’s name. I think it’s Tom and I can’t remember his last name. But what you need to know about it is he’s over at hedge fund -- at least was over hedge fund -- that was worth billions. This is him in Minnesota again. Not to pick on Minnesota but Minnesota is where we’re at right now. He addressed a couple of African-American men and assumed that… Well I’ll let the video speak for itself. Let’s bring it up. Let’s see if you can hear it.

VIDEO PLAYED

What’d you say [your name again - 50:05]?

I’m Tom Austin. I’m a tenant in the building. Are you?

We’re all tenants of this building.

What floor? What office?

Don’t worry about that. [We’re not saying this].

What office?

We have an office here and this guy came accusing us we can’t be here.

What office are you in?

Don’t worry about that. [We’re not going to tell you any of that].

I’m calling 911 then.

Go ahead.

As you guys could see, we’re dealing with racism here.

Nicole? Hey, this is Tom. [Inaudible].

ROB
I think that pretty much speaks for itself. This type of stuff happens to Black folks every single day. And I want folks to know like--

This is my message to any white person that is listening to this. I have lots of white friends. I think it’s time for more white people to stop racist white people. We can’t do this by ourselves. We’ve been forgiving. We’ve been trying for however hundreds of years.

This person, Tom Austin, was over a group called “F2 Venture Capital Group.” He got a chance to deny or give opportunities for venture funds for entrepreneurs. I don’t have to guess. I’m sure there’s hardly any people of color, any Black people that got an opportunity there. This is why when you hear the racist language in the room, you have to check it.

And to me, we got down this thing about Democrat-Republican. At the end of the day, that’s the least important part of this conversation. The most important part of this conversation is we have to understand the humanity of all involved. And we need white people to be more accountable to other white people. It’s the only way this is going to stop. I’ve talked about sexual harassment only stops when men hold other men accountable. It’s the same thing with racism. So that’s my plea to folks today.

We got to stop it on levels like this. It shouldn’t always have to lead to death to get your attention. Racism is happening all day every day and five times on Sunday. I am sick of this pandemic happening in the United States of America.

CARLTON
Yeah. That video, for me, is all too common. When I moved in to my neighborhood near Boca, that happened to me like three times. My neighbor came out, had his dog jumping in my car, told me he didn’t want me in the neighborhood, told me the whole [age - 52:25] away never wanted me there, to go back to jail where I came from. “This is why the neighborhood never wanted you.” Every time I go in the basketball court, security is rolling up on me and my son. “Oh you can’t practice here.” I could go on and on and on. All these happen to people like you, me, everyone.

That’s the thing that is… keep on being brought up. This is not some one-off incident. You got to see a very small sample-size we’re dealing with. Like you said, every single day. All of us.

And those people that you’re working with in your office, your little buddy that you’re talking to at the water cooler who, in his mind, trying to keep it together and not strangle you when you say something ignorant like that to him or ask the woman at your office can you touch her hair or whatever little things it is, people need to understand like-- People are getting sick of it. They’re getting fed up with it. It’s not okay. It’s happening all the time. And it starts with us. Like you said, it starts with us calling it out and not doing that. But a lot of times, we’re uncomfortable because if we do, we’re going to lose that contract.

ROB
Yeah.

CARLTON
If we do, we’re going to lose that dinner out with our boss to get the promotion. And a lot of times, I’ve had to sit through stuff like that in my career because I knew, “Carlton, if you say something right now” -- you’re on the fishing trip with your boss, at the bank or whatever -- you’re probably going to get A] less favor, terminated or something. That’s going to affect my household. I can’t afford it. So that’s the problem we’re having right now.

And I think the more we do this type of things and call people out and reach out to olive branch -- the people that don’t look like us, which I think is the biggest thing -- I think that’s how you peacefully solve the gap because the more you reach out--

And again, the more poor white people, poor Black people, middleclass, white people middleclass, Black people, Latinos realize that we’re all the same, have the same problems, we go to sleep the same, eat the same, have the same health issues, that’s what’s going to take to figure out like, “Hey, we’re not that different.”

And the people who are really causing us to be oppressed, it’s not necessarily a racial thing. They’re doing it to all of us and we’re all sharing the same issue.

JAMES
Yeah. Well that’s interesting because… Yeah, this is the human element of our society. This is what we deal with because we’re humans. We’re tribal at our core -- you know, lizard-brain-type. We look for similarities and try to find that. We look at differences and try to… or skeptical of that.

Actually, if you look at the term “Civilized,” the civilized person can go beyond that initial discomfort and build those bridges like you said, Carlton, and reach across from someone who, immediately, they don’t see their similarity with and find that similarity and treat people with human dignity. The uncivilized person just can’t do it.

What we have to do is make sure on our society that we drown out the uncivilized people -- the barbarians among us, basically -- who once they see a certain skin color, they just can’t do… That’s as far as their analysis can go. Or once they see a certain gender, boom, that’s as far as their analysis can go.

Those people, we need to call it out. We need to all hold them accountable because in a civilized society, where we’re going to all live here together, that’s what’s needed, otherwise, it all falls apart.

I think that we’re all interested -- “self-interested” which is another powerful raw human condition-type thing. We’re all self-interested in trying to make this work.

There are people among us though that are trying to burn it down and we have to speak to them and tell them that’s not the way. “I’m not trying to have you burn it down on my watch.”

So we got to turn and look back at ourselves. And like I said, I’ve seen that here in response to Floyd’s death where I’ve seen people saying, “Look, man, we got to hold each other accountable” and that goes with race, that goes with gender, that goes to political parties -- like the political parties themselves. We’ve sorted ourselves out like that now.

And you’ve seen tribal interactions basically take over the political interactions. And it’s like, no. What you believe in, you need to hold your fellow white person or Black person accountable for that; your fellow democrat or republican accountable for that. I mean whatever. It’s all of that.

We want to live a certain way, we’re going to be civilized then let’s be civilized and let’s hold each other to a standard that’s becoming of that.

ROB
Yeah. I will say this: I always encourage unity but I’m also cautious when people just, at moments like this, say, “Let us come together and be unified” because unity can’t happen unless you are grounded in truth and you are addressing issues and figuring out how to move forward.

Again, I’ll go back to why you have to talk about race is because race was created to start this division, right, and then racism was the by-product of that. And us not talking about it is part of the problem.

Like South Africa or like Germany countries that have moved forward with… that has severe justice divisions have had to reconcile with painful truths. So yes, I believe in reaching out and then making sure we understand each other. But then folks have to take the next step to understand the journey and the context of what’s happening.

We have to really address what’s happened with race, the history of race, and just quit pretending… We, still in this country, in terms of when you become a citizen and they give you options about the history of this country, they talk about the Civil War and they give multiple choice questions on why the Civil War happened. It happened for one reason -- Slavery. End of story. End of paragraph. End of sentence.

And lots of other thigs happened because of that. And it all has to do with splitting, making sure we are divided -- Carlton, to your point of view, “Poor white against poor Black” -- so just a few people can continue to profit.

We have to get back to make sure people understand that because when you go in Germany, it’s very clear what their history is. They talk about what happened to Jewish people. When a Jewish person was lynched, when a Jewish person was killed, you know about it. They put it in every single site. We have to have that same type of truth-telling.

And it’s an extremely painful conversation to have but avoiding pain, I believe, causes more pain which is part of the problem that I think is going on right now in the United States of America.

We try to run from this subject. As soon as we can… “Just turn it off. Let’s stop talking about it. Can we stop talking about race? Can we stop talking about race?” That’s the first thing people want to do. But we have to figure out how to have a real truthful addressing of race and then we can move forward and make sure we reconcile.

Final point I want to get to you guys on this, what is it that should be done with this moment? Obviously, a lot of people are angry -- both Black and white. I looked and saw protesters. In some communities, there were majority white out there which is encouraging. It’s kind of to Carlton’s point.

But what should be done with the anger that’s on the ground, to have a long sustained change here because it’s easy… and I think some expect… There’s an emotional spark, reaction. People get mad for a week, two weeks, three weeks, a month. This case goes on. Business goes on as usual. Nothing really changes. What can we do, really, to have a sustained long-term effect with this moment? I have some thoughts but I want to throw it over to you guys then I’ll conclude.

CARLTON
I think that we need to show support -- again, not for looting and stealing but for the movements that are going on out there right now especially because we are seeing both Black and whites out there. I think this is a great time right now to--

Again, if you are in other -- white, Black, Latino, whatever -- it’s time you need to--

Look, I see this all the time with Black, white people, Hispanic people, with Jewish people. You can’t just hang out… This is America. If you’re looking around you and everybody in the room looks like you, that’s a problem all the time, you know. So go out, make a friend with someone that doesn’t look like you. It’s okay to have a gay friend. It’s great to have a white friend, a Spanish friend, an Asian friend, an Indian friend. And when you start having these friends, you start having drinks with them and your kids are playing, you guys start talking with this stuff, automatically, you start to realize that we’re all kind of the same; that these divisions aren’t necessary. And the divisions, like you said, Rob, are really here… It almost seems like to keep us distracted and talk about these things--

ROB
That’s the point of the thing. That is the point.

CARLTON
Yeah. And it’s getting to be quite obvious now. And I think that’s why you’re seeing white people in the streets because we’re all kind of in the same boat right now. White doesn’t mean what it meant back in the day anymore. A lot of whites are poor. A lot of whites got student loan debt. A lot of whites are losing their jobs due to this COVID pandemic.

ROB
They always had debt, Carlton.

JAMES
That’s not new.

ROB
That’s not new.

CARLTON
But I will tell you this. It is more than ever before, I think, and that’s why you’re seeing rage like this on both sides. And I think this is the perfect opportunity for this protest.

JAMES
It’s just harder to blame the Black people for all the bad things that’s happening.

CARLTON
However [crosstalk] [inaudible - 01:01:14]--

JAMES
That’s always been the thing. Like your life is tough because of Black people.

CARLTON
Yeah. However you want--

ROB
Hold on, Carlton. Let him finish. Go ahead, James.

JAMES
Oh no. I cut him. So go ahead and finish your point. I’m sorry.
ROB
Oh you are.

CARLTON
Yeah, however you want to phrase it. If you’re looking for a peaceful resolution, I think challenging people right now on a national scale to go out and make a friend with someone that doesn’t look like you would really help. I don’t want to see this be in vain. I don’t want to see these people to leave the streets without some kind of resolution. And I’m glad to see that they’re out in DC and all over the place and I think they need to keep on until we get some kind of resolution.

With COVID, a lot of people lost their jobs so it’s a great time to keep the protest going for a long time until somebody buckles and we get what we want. And what we want is for this not to happen again and for there to be consequences about it. So I think that’s what needs to happen.

I also think that… You know, we’re coming up on our election cycle and something that really needs to be pushed that would also stop this is, what Jimmy kind of alluded to, which is… Both of you guys are lawyers. I’ve never taken a bar. I don’t want to take the bar. I know it’s very, very difficult.

Why the hell are you guys taking the bar? You don’t have guns. You don’t have any authority to do anything. They’re putting these guys through police academy like that. You know what I mean?

So I think we need to upgrade who is becoming law enforcement officers, teachers, firefighters. Law enforcement officers should be celebrated in this company. They should make no less than a hundred thousand dollars.

ROB
I agree with that. I agree with paying officers more, too.

CARLTON
Yes. And when we start putting more quality people in these positions, this will also go away. With more education, a little bit more income and a lot more to lose because when you're putting the bottom barrel people out there in the streets to police people and you're giving the guy that was bullied in high school a gun and a badge from some podunk town Alabama, that's a problem. And that's what I'm seeing a lot of times in local law enforcement. Not all the time. There's great law enforcement officers out there but they got a lot of rotten apples. We need to get them out of there. We need to make friends with people who don't look like us and I think we would get a lot further.

JAMES
I think you're on to something there. I think also ongoing support for law enforcement officers as well. It's a tough job. To me, it would be very easy for your mind to be conditioned a certain way if what you deal with is a criminal element all the time to where you start making those mental shortcuts. I think we need to recognize it's like--

In addition to what you're saying as far as the training, as far as making it a higher paying more desirable job and a job that you really don't want to lose but also ongoing support so that you don't, after five years of policing the same neighborhood, just start seeing every young Black person, “Oh that's another one of these guys. I'm going to be arresting him in three years.” Like that's something we know what happens because that's how our brains work. So we need to work to counteract that.

As far as moving forward, I think anger can be helpful in many scenarios. But what we really need is resolve because we are in a place… Like the blueprint to change things in this country has already been put in but we need to actually do it. The power is in the people if the people choose to use it. So we need mass demonstration, which is what we have now, to demonstrate that power. But more important, we need to vote.

I know you poo-pooed Killer Mike for saying that but voting is what it is. Voting is the game. As we speak right now, there are efforts being made to limit people's ability to vote come November because anyone who's paying attention knows that that's the ultimate expression of power. And it doesn't have to be--

You don't have to know every single issue in order to get out there and vote. Our collective decision-making is better than anyone of our individual decision-making. So just being there and having your voice heard, automatically, you're going to influence the system. You're going to influence who runs the next time around by having your voice heard.

So we need resolve. We need to be able to make sure that this injustice that we see, we, the people, make our power felt at the ballot box so that we can even get out of office the people that are going through all these efforts now to try to limit people's ability to vote.

It's a real game and if we're not careful and if we don't fight for it then the people who are involved in the most powerful process in the world, which is the United States voting system, are going to continue to be limited and this type of stuff will happen and we will have one less bullet in the gun, so to speak, to use to effectuate change.

ROB
Yeah.

CARLTON
Yeah. Can I just leave… I know you’re about to close up but I would just… something that’s important to me. I’ve been thinking about all week during this is the James Bolam quote. Basically, “To be Black and conscious in America is to be in a constant state of rage.”

I think that anybody watching this, wondering maybe why these three guys… educated guys are here so angry or why all these people are on the street so angry, look, it's a legit comment. And I think a lot of times, we do a very good job of hiding that rage. I'm sure that we do. We’re gainfully employed and whatnot. But I don't want that to be mistaken. And if you're watching this and you can't relate, please know that about 90% of people that look like us are feeling that rage and they're holding it in all the time. Just sleep on that because--

You’re seeing people holding up signs and people saying that they're tired. I'm tired. I'm sure you guys are tired. I'm getting kind of sick of it. And even if it leads to financial loss and careers and things like that, I don't think people want to just sleep through this anymore.

JAMES
Yeah, man. Help me out, man. I'm trying to hold Carlton back. I’m trying to hold him back.

ROB
Yeah. Look, as I said at the beginning, I went through a range of emotions and “pissed off” was at the top of them. Most of the time, it always comes back to that. But then I have to have a… Then I try to calm down to figure out, “Well what does one do with this emotion at this moment?” I believe in protests. I believe protests are appropriate. Protests are one method that we have -- an effective one but not as effective when it's not employed with multiple methods.

I encourage people to protest but then we got to have, as kind of as James alluded, persistence -- persistence that's tied to policy. These things take a long time. And to see the changes… We need to see changes. It's not going to happen in one vote. It's not going to happen in two votes. It’s not going to happen in 10 votes. It’s not going to happen in two years. It's not going to happen in three years. These things take constant persistence for us to follow up.

So we got to have protests but that protest has to be right next to “Sustain policy.” You can protest all you want [but] if we don't have laws that are changed, if we don't have prosecutors that are actually committed to not only holding bad police officers accountable, not over-prosecuting our community simply because we're poor, simply because of the color of our skin, if you don't have prosecutors that have that approach, none of this changes either. If you don't have judges that try to come from that point of view, these things don't change. If you don't have executives, if you don't have mayors--

First, start locally, too. We all get locked up in the presidential palace and politics but the president is probably the least important to affecting you. It's more important who your mayor is, way more important who your prosecutor is, way more important who your city council person is. Be engaged. That matters. Those people make decisions every day, life or death -- your local judge, your local prosecutor.
And often times… Carlton, you said it doesn't work. Most of the times, we haven't seen sustained effort. Those usually have really low voter turnout. People think turnout for a presidential election is going to implement some type of huge change. That's not how the system work. The system works on the local level, mostly -- on the state and local level.

We talk about incarceration, it’s happening on the state level, mostly. So we have to make the changes on our local level and take our power back. We do have power. We can protest. We can get policy. And then we have to use our power and organize and work together.

Look, you have three brothers on this show, have very different points of view. As you can tell, Carlton tends to be a lot more conservative. He usually republican. I'm a democrat and James is sometimes--

JAMES
Philosopher.

ROB
Philosopher, yes.

JAMES
[Laughter]

ROB
Anyway, we all have different points of view but we all want to have our humanity respected whether it's a democrat, republican. That's what matters to us. And I want to let everybody know, particularly my white brothers and sisters, that we need you more to step up more than you ever have, to put yourself in uncomfortable situations to feel and understand the pain. I don't want you to be colorblind.

That is a statement that tries to shut off things. You can just go away in your corner and pretend like the world is not burning. You see things burning now. I just want to tell you, the world's been burning. Racism has been burning the United States of America for a very long time and we need more white brothers and sisters to put this to an end.

We can and we must do this. We will do our part but we can't do it alone. We can't. We need help. I hope that more will take up the mantle.

I'm willing to have conversations with anybody -- democrat, republican, conservative, anybody. We have to be willing to talk to each other and we have to be willing to challenge each other to be better because we can be better than where we are right now and we have to be. -- Oh that's pretty much all I have.

JAMES
Let me have one thing real quick, man. The urgency needs to be there because the people who are working to oppress, the people who are working to subvert justice, they're not taking days off. They're working all the time. And if we don't match that energy--

And there's more people who are interested in equality than in injustice than who are looking to subvert justice, pervert it for their own benefit and so forth. We outnumber them but they are out working us, collectively.

So we need all of us to step up. It's the only way that we’ll be able to push them back because they are looking to pervert our American system into their own benefit and we got to take it away. And the people [indiscernible – 01:11:38] we do it.

ROB
You sparked one final point by mine. The most consequential moments in the United States of America have always been closed. Like ending slavery wasn't a 90/10 question. It was like a 52 to 47%. So people have to get involved. It's the people that are on the sidelines who are just going about their day, living in their air-conditioned life, whatever it is, they have to get involved. They have to decide that this matters to them because it's going to be… These things are always close. Ending Jim Crow. All these things are closed questions because the system is so ingrained that people don't even realize the injustice right in front of them.

I want you to see it. I don't want you to be blind anymore. Don't be colorblind. Have color empathy. Understand what is happening to your brothers and sisters and do something about it. Until next time, I'm Rob Richardson.

JAMES
I'm James Keys.

CARLTON
I'm Carlton Washington.

ROB
We'll see you next time.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]