00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,240
I think a bigger problem can come about
when they see you as a person.

00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,200
Well, you're not like that. Right.

00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,240
So like, yes, you may be black,
but you're not like most black people.

00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:12,120
Right. So.

00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:13,120
Because I've heard that.

00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:13,360
Yeah.

00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,240
Like, clearly I've gotten that

00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,000
and I've tried to figure out
how to help a process that. So.

00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,000
If you believe
we can change the narrative,

00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,200
if you believe
we can change our communities,

00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,200
if you believe we can change the outcomes,
then we can change the world.

00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,840
I'm Rob Richardson.

00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,400
Welcome to Disruption Now.

00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,320
Welcome to Disruption.

00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,040
Now I'm your host,
the moderator, Rob Richardson.

00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,840
With me is Kerel Cooper with Group Black.

00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,840
If you don't know Group Black, it's
one of the largest.

00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,640
It is the largest
black owned media collective agency.

00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,080
And it's about empowering
essentially more dollars that are there

00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,240
that are being spent advertising dollars
to go back to the black creators.

00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,240
They're actually creating the value.

00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,560
This started as a as kind of a call
and a mission in 2020

00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,600
after the awakening of people,
I guess, or the we were reawakening,

00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,840
whatever you want to call it, right.

00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,480
Got to feel
they went back to sleep a little bit,

00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,240
but that's neither here nor there,

00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,880
but grew black, started at that moment
to really bring a reckoning to media

00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,200
advertising dollars
and making sure that they are being spent

00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,680
in a more equitable way.

00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,280
And Kerel is the president
of advertising that grew black,

00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,760
and he's also the host of
the Minority podcast, which I've been on.

00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,960
I encourage
you also to go on to that podcast.

00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:25,440
Kerel, welcome.

00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:26,480
Hey, Rob, how you doing?

00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:27,520
It's good to be here.

00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,560
And like you said, I appreciate
at the time when you were a guest

00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,000
on my podcast
and and I'm looking forward to

00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,640
being a guest on yours
and this conversation excited for.

00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:39,360
Absolutely.

00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,240
And it was great to have you at Midwest

00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,960
and hope you'll come back and we can do
some this together with Midwest.

00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,320
We already got the date,
so we want to do more with Group Black.

00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,200
Excited to talk more.

00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,240
But I want to get to something.

00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,720
I just want to get right to it
and we'll get to levels.

00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,720
In terms of your details of your career
and and what you're doing a group black

00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:58,720
and how that's going.

00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,680
But I like to really kind of
go to talk a little bit

00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,200
more about your role
traditionally in your career.

00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,280
I read in a podcast
a listen to a podcast that you were on,

00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,600
and you said something that I think
every black leader

00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,400
or any, frankly, leader that's

00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,400
that's from a minority
group can understand.

00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:19,680
Right?

00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,480
You said a lot of times, almost always
in your career you that you've either

00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,520
been the only one or the highest
ranking black person in that position,

00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,040
and that brings that additional level
of pressure and stress.

00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:38,040
What type of pressure and stress
does that bring being the sometimes only

00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,720
or the highest ranking African-American
in the room or at the table?

00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:43,080
Yeah.

00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,560
So first, I've been in the digital
advertising space for 24 years

00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,360
now, and up
until I joined Group Black a year

00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,640
and a half ago,
that statement was was very true, right.

00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:04,760
Of of for me throughout my career,
either being the only black leader

00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,320
in the room or the highest ranking
black leader in the room.

00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,880
And the I think the additional pressure

00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:18,360
that it brings,
at least for me, is you feel like

00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,160
you are in a way
carrying the flag and having, you know,

00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,920
the entire weight of the black community
on your shoulders.

00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:27,280
Right.

00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,320
Because if you do a good job,
then that potentially

00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,840
opens the door
for other black leaders to come in.

00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,040
If you don't do a job,
it could have the opposite effect.

00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,080
And so and so that's what I mean
about the additional stress.

00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,280
I mean, we know as as black people,
it really in any industry

00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,360
you have to overperform outperform

00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,120
sometimes just to get to an even level

00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,560
playing field with with your counterparts
that aren't black.

00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:57,800
Right.

00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,280
And so that additional weight of
of doing what I need to do

00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,000
trying to overperform
and outperform others at the same time

00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,160
opening the doors for others
that look like me.

00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,360
Yeah, I believe there's a real tension
there too, on many different sides, right?

00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,080
Because it's like you said, you don't
want to be the last one out the door.

00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,880
And when they acknowledge it or not,

00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,960
when you're the first, you do represent

00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,000
for people that aren't aware or don't
necessarily have as a let's say, as a

00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,080
as many diverse experiences

00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,680
or friends, you're going to represent
what they think of black people.

00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,320
Sometimes I've often actually think
that sometimes when they see it.

00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,560
I think a bigger problem can come about
when they see you as a person.

00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,520
Well, you're not like that, right?

00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,920
So like, yes, you may be black, but
you're not like most black people, right?

00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,440
So because I've heard that.

00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,360
Yeah, like, clearly I've gotten that
and I've tried to figure out how to help

00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,040
a process that.

00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,040
So on one side
it's that on the other side it's

00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,720
I've also dealt with the tension of other,
you know, black folks, frankly,

00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,360
that haven't understood
that have had some difficulty

00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,200
understanding
how to how you have to maneuver

00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,360
those politics in the right way
to actually go about that.

00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,040
So talk about those tensions.

00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,640
So how do you deal with that? Right.

00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,640
Like sometimes when you do a great job,
they don't see it as like,

00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,560
this is what all people can do
that are black.

00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,480
This is
maybe you're the exception to the rule.

00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,000
How do you challenge that
and how do you challenge the other side

00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,480
when folks are our own folks
sometimes don't understand

00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,680
what you are actually doing
to open the door?

00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,040
Because I've felt that before too.
So yeah, yeah.

00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,200
No, I and I've talked about this
in in interviews that I've done

00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,360
in the past too, earlier on in my career.

00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,000
Code switching right.

00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,480
Was was, was a big thing right for me
and obviously others that you know

00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,080
maybe for you and others
that's like look like us. Right.

00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,720
And tell the truth
as a part of what had to do.

00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,320
Right. Right.

00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,600
And you do it because again,
you don't feel comfortable in the room.

00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,640
Sometimes you don't feel like
you belong in the room and you're doing

00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,240
what you can to fit in right in many ways

00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,840
so that you can stay in the room
and try to excel.

00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:10,480
Right.

00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:16,840
For me, you know, as I've as I've grown in
my career, got in senior positions

00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,360
and really more confident and grounded in
and who I am.

00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,800
Code switching is has gone away like I am.

00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:23,400
Who I am.

00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,840
And you know I am too now. Yeah,
we're good.

00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:26,080
We're good.

00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:26,440
Like you.

00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,680
You know, you're hiring.

00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,000
You're hiring me for me.

00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,160
So I'm going to be me, right?

00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:38,800
And and I always try to think
about successes that I have.

00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,960
And, you know, again,
the successes that I have is, you know,

00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,040
attributed to my work, my team's work,
you know, my companies work.

00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:52,160
But I also tried my best
to promote successes

00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,080
that other people that look like us in
the industry have as well, too.

00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:59,160
You know, we check my LinkedIn feed, I'm
resharing stuff.

00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,240
I'm saying congratulations
and doing all that.

00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,960
So I think, you know,
to answer your question there, I think

00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,560
you have to focus on doing what you do
and make sure again

00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,800
you are performing
to the best of your ability, but

00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,480
you also should be supporting
others around you

00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,560
that look like you in the work

00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,840
that they're doing as well too,
because that's the way you know,

00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,200
you can show that you know more,
you know, black people

00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:32,360
in leadership positions
coming up in their careers are performing

00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,720
well and and are doing a great job

00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,400
in the subject matter that they're focused
on, if you will.

00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,880
Yes. I mean, I think

00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,800
you know, where
I thought you might be going, particularly

00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,840
when someone says like, well, you're the,
you know, the special Negro or whatever

00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,040
you want to call it,
like the one like, you're different.

00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,040
I thought you were
I thought you might talk about,

00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,840
like, having a teachable moment with,
with some of your colleagues.

00:07:58,840 --> 00:07:59,640
Like, I've had to do that.

00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,280
And it was a it was an extreme example,
and I'll be very brief,

00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,360
but I was on the board of the University
of Cincinnati,

00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,080
and one of our officers had shot

00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,560
and unjustifiably shot
and killed an African-American male.

00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,320
And this is before 2020.

00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,440
I mean, we know
had been happening for a long time. And

00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,760
and and, you know,

00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,760
one of my colleagues said, well, you know,

00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,320
he was doing X, Y, Z,
and you wouldn't do that.

00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,240
And, you know,
I had to take a pause and I and

00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:34,240
and make him

00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,320
understand that he wouldn't have known me
as the chairman of the board.

00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,640
He would have seen a black man,
a tall black man.

00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,240
And you have to understand,
I've been pulled over.

00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,680
Gun has been pulled out of me
by an officer for no reason,

00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:48,880
and I wasn't doing anything.

00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,960
So I want you to know that it's not
that is not it has nothing to do

00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:59,560
other than anything that this person
only saw my color and reacted in a way.

00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:00,080
Yeah.

00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,440
And it's not because he was a bad person
or I'm an exceptionally good black person.

00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,120
And so I think I try to use those moments
and figure out a way

00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:09,960
to deal with those modes.

00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:15,280
I'm not sure if you had a moment like that
and if you can think about how you

00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,040
communicated in a way
that was actually constructive

00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,560
and actually taught people something.
If you don't, we can move on.

00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:23,160
I just wanted to say, yeah, no, no, no.

00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,960
I mean, listen, I have plenty of moments
throughout my life, in my career,

00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,720
you know, similar to you, you know,
been pulled over for for no reason.

00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,640
I have had situations
where I'm in meetings

00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,840
and someone from an external organization
is coming into the room to talk to me

00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,280
and other senior folks.

00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,960
And again, being the only black person
in the room when they're speaking, they're

00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,000
looking at everyone else in the eye
and looking past me right when, when,

00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,400
and in some cases on the subject matter
expert in in the room.

00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:53,960
Right.

00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,960
And what I
what I try to do in those situations

00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,880
and what I teach folks who I mentor
or who ask me

00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,640
how to deal with
those situations is don't lose yourself.

00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:08,920
You have to be.

00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,920
You have to be. You continue to perform.

00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:17,600
And don't let someone who sees you
a certain way

00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,480
and has the level of ignorance
bring you down to their level.

00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:23,560
You know, stay high with that.

00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:24,840
Yeah, No, that's great.

00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,640
So kind of switching a little bit
to how you got into this career,

00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,280
how did you get into the career
of digital advertising?

00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,360
Like what brought you here

00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:35,280
by chance?

00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,600
Quite frankly,

00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,120
coming out of school in the late nineties
and applying for jobs that, you know,

00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,200
I went to Keio University,
which is a division three school in Union,

00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,160
New Jersey, and I had a I graduated

00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,520
with an undergrad in management science,
in a concentration in marketing.

00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,480
And quite frankly, like many kids

00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,760
going through college
and coming out of school,

00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,640
I didn't have a clear understanding
of what I wanted to do yet.

00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,320
I knew that I eventually wanted to be
in marketing and advertising.

00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,120
But as you know, that's that's very broad.

00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,840
That's very, very broad. Right?

00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,360
And so I,

00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,480
I applied for a role as a sales assistant

00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,960
at a company called Earth Web,
which is a online publisher at the time,

00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,920
focused on delivering information
and news to IT professionals.

00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,960
And, you know, long story short,
I got the job as a sales assistant,

00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,680
and after six months as a sales assistant,
my VP of sales

00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,320
pulls me in our office and says, Hey,

00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,320
we're creating this new department
called ad Operation is

00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,600
would you have any interest in
and wanting to move over into that team

00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,160
and be an ad trafficker and again,
not knowing much about digital

00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,560
advertising at the time,
what ad operations meant,

00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,640
but being very hungry
and knew that I just wanted

00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,120
to try different things and perform
and move up.

00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,240
And luckily,
as I got into the ad operations field,

00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,640
it drew me in and it drew me in
for a number of reasons.

00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,640
One, I think for anyone
coming in a digital advertising

00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,160
ad, operations is a good entry point.

00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,520
And I say that from experience
because it gives you the chance

00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,320
to learn so much about the business
because you see it all right?

00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,080
You see the sales side of things,
you see the product side of things,

00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,560
you see the technology
side of things using ad servers

00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,560
and data management platforms
and all of those tools.

00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,280
And so it was a good way for me to
to get that foundation and from there,

00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,720
you know, I continued along in my career
in ad operations

00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,720
for the first 14 years of my career.

00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,880
Most notably, I worked at a local news
publisher called Advance Digital,

00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,120
moved up to manager director level,
did some pretty cool things

00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,000
that advance Digital, like implementing
their first programmatic strategy,

00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,920
implementing their first data and audience
strategy and audience extension.

00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,400
And then in 2014,
I moved over to a company

00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,560
called Live in Tent,
where I made a pivot in my career.

00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,320
I went from ad operations
to account management,

00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,640
and for me the pivot was important

00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,840
because I was going to be in a position
now where I could build a team

00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,880
that was responsible
for servicing ad operations professionals.

00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,080
So I was moving to sort of the other side

00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,200
of the industry, if you will,
and built out that account management

00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,120
team led account management at Live Intent
for about two years.

00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,160
And then I decided
to make another pivot in my career.

00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,520
So before you go to that role,
because I have a question in between so

00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,720
often, I think in order to be successful
in anything

00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,760
entrepreneurship life, it's
about having perseverance, pushing through

00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,840
tough times, Also having patience though,
because you can be working hard

00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,120
and understanding things do take time,
but then it's pivoting to right.

00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,080
You can you can have enough patience,
you could be persevering,

00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,440
but then you've got to pivot
as you talk about your next pivot,

00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,240
all your pivot, how do you know
when is the right time to pivot?

00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,000
Yeah,
that's a it's a very interesting question.

00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,040
And I'm not sure you always fully know
it's the right time.

00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,360
I think it's a combination of knowing

00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,680
that you want to pivot and being ready
and also being ready

00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,680
for when that opportunity
actually comes along.

00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,240
Right.

00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,880
Because the opportunity
could have come along for me, but maybe

00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,880
I wasn't thinking about it and wouldn't
have been and wouldn't have been ready.

00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:43,200
Right.

00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,800
So I think it's a combination
of those two things.

00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,320
And, you know, as we talk a little bit
more about my career, you know,

00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,560
one of the things that I've I've always
sort of looked at and said is

00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,280
I never wanted to be put in a box.

00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,600
I think so many times, you know,
professionals get put in a box, companies

00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,320
get put in a box, this is an ops person,
this is a salesperson.

00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:07,960
It is a marketing person.

00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,880
And I always wanted to be thought about

00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,880
as someone who is a leader

00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,280
and likes to build high performing teams.

00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,800
And no matter what role you put me in,
that's what I'm going to focus on doing.

00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,600
And that's what
I've tried to do throughout my career,

00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,640
whether it be my long career
in ad operations,

00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,320
whether it be the time where I moved over
to live in tent and built out

00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,320
and ran the account management team
for my first couple of years.

00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,640
Or even then when I pivoted
after running, the account management team

00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,880
pivoted into marketing and led
and built out product marketing team

00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,280
and then eventually all of marketing
and then eventually became a CMO

00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,480
at live Intent.

00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:57,040
What I've always tried to do
whenever I pivot is like I said,

00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,040
what do I need to do to build out high
performing teams?

00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,200
That's one.

00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,280
To what can I take
from my previous experience

00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,720
that will help me in the new role, Right?

00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:15,360
And then also, I think a sign of any good
leader is understanding

00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,400
where your strengths are, but
also where your weaknesses are right now.

00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,560
Being a CMO at live TED after

00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,760
not really coming up
through sort of the marketing

00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,000
professional career, right?

00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,200
I understood that
I needed to surround myself

00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,680
with a strong product marketing leader,
a strong demand gen leader,

00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,920
a strong creative person,
so on and so forth.

00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,160
Right?

00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,560
So I think that that all of that is
is super important when you pivot.

00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:46,680
Yeah. No, no. Great.

00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,360
So let's, let's talk
a little bit about leadership

00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,360
then go to the focusing on group
lack a little bit.

00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,680
So you talked about the importance
some of the important traits of leadership

00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,040
you got.

00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,520
You actually discussed just how

00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:00,960
I feel.

00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,080
One of the most important jobs of a leader

00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,360
is to really create the culture
and create a culture of trust.

00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:10,320
What would you say?

00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,880
Like how do you go about as a leader
and you've led many times.

00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,400
How do you go about creating
that psychological safety,

00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,760
that that culture of trust
where people feel empowered

00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,480
to be themselves and speak up
when they feel like things need to change?

00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:26,880
Well, first things first.

00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,560
I think as a leader, any leader,
you have to do what you say

00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,000
you're going to do, right?

00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,280
That's first and foremost

00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,960
in terms of building trust.

00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,240
If you say that you're going
to do something, you need to follow up

00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,840
and you need to make sure that you
you do it.

00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,960
I also think that as a leader,

00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,360
you have to make sure that your teams know

00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,160
that your door is open to them
whenever they need you.

00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,480
Right.

00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,440
And for me, I'm not a micromanager

00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,800
in any sense of the word.

00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,280
I hire people who I expect to stand

00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,320
on their own
two feet to be able to to do their job.

00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,400
And I'm going to give them the room to
to to to do their job.

00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,080
But at the same time, they understand
and know that my door is open.

00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:20,400
I'm here to support them.

00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,280
I'm here to provide guidance.

00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,320
I'm here to provide air cover.

00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,200
At times I'm here to

00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,160
break down barriers and challenges

00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,200
that are impacting their ability
to do their job.

00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,760
So when it comes to sort of building trust
and building a culture

00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,560
for people to be themselves,
I think all of those things are involved.

00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,040
I also think it's also important
that as a leader that I myself right,

00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,000
because they see if they see that
I am being who I am,

00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,160
then I think that that makes them
feel comfortable as well too.

00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,840
There's a
there's a level of comfortability

00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,760
that's provided
for them to to also be themselves.

00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,120
So what do you think?

00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,640
Is Utah about being a leader
and understanding

00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,760
your strengths
and weaknesses to that point?

00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,840
What do you believe is your biggest lesson

00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,200
failure as a leader
and how did you grow from that?

00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:26,000
Yeah, so again, being a leader
for as many years as I as I've been

00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,320
managing people, because you can be
a leader without being a manager,

00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,120
but being as managing people,
you know, I've probably managed

00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,480
hundreds, if not thousands of people
throughout my career.

00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,640
You don't always get those.

00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,320
You don't get every situation
right. Right.

00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:47,320
I have made hires that I shouldn't have
made, and I learned from that.

00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,760
I have

00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,320
mismanaged people in the past
and I've learned from that.

00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,320
And so I think that's where
if I think about

00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,800
is there any one thing that sticks out
in terms of like it can be a moment.

00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,560
Yeah, this confidentially
and to get into the specific details

00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,520
but just for the audience to learn like
what was that one moment

00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,920
that I could feel there's something there
that's there is like, what is that?

00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,880
Yeah, there definitely was a situation
in the past where, you know,

00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,160
I had a couple of of direct reports

00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,240
and one direct report

00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,240
didn't feel that

00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,120
maybe I was potentially giving
that person.

00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,720
I'm trying to be as is. I don't want to.

00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,480
Yeah, I understand. Yeah.

00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,360
Maybe I wasn't giving that individual

00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,600
the time and attention that maybe others

00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,080
that were reporting to me got right.

00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,520
And, you know, as I,

00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,400
as I think back on that situation itself
and I've been I've learned from that.

00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,720
I've been, you know, better
from that from that situation.

00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,520
But as I think back on that situation,
I didn't feel that at the time

00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,360
that that person was correct
in what they were saying.

00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,840
But I can go back now
and see that, okay, yes,

00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,160
maybe I was potentially spending time
in other areas

00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,640
versus spending time with that individual.

00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,080
Maybe some of that was
I thought that that individual

00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,560
maybe didn't need as much of my attention
as others.

00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,920
But at the same time. Right.

00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,840
I take the ownership for that
because I need to be leading

00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,040
in terms of the communication
there as well too, if that makes sense.

00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:30,520
No, no, it makes total sense.

00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,880
It's the challenging part is to really
you have to go beyond

00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,280
sometimes just like the surface
because every different person.

00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,200
Yes. As they're different,
you know, if it's not a

00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,840
it's not a direct comparison,
but it's close.

00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,280
Like just like in a relationship.
People have love languages.

00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,920
People have ways
that they need communication

00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,600
and figuring out,
especially if you have high performers,

00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,800
what that looks like for each individual
person is a lot of work.

00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,640
But it's very important,
I think, for leaders to understand that

00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,680
because then people are more aware
right away 1,000%.

00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,480
And and what I have learned
from that particular situation is

00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,760
I need to meet people
where they are exactly right.

00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,280
And at the same time, I struggle with that
a lot, too.

00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,040
Right? Right.

00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,640
Meet people where they are
and also realize

00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,920
that everyone is different as well
too, right?

00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,880
Communication style or

00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,320
how much time they may need from
you ideas.

00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,840
They want all of those things.

00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,480
And so that that was the biggest lesson
learned from that situation is meet people

00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,640
where they are.

00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,120
And I definitely think
that I learned a lot from that.

00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,680
And I'm a better leader
because of that situation.

00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,760
Okay, so now you're leading group Black
and the president of advertising.

00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,360
And, you know,
as I mentioned at the beginning

00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,040
of the podcast group, Black started
really as an opportunity.

00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,560
And in response to what happened
with George Floyd and many others,

00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,480
frankly, and it was a collective moment
that it seemed as if, you know,

00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,640
more of America was open to investing
and looking at things differently.

00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,000
And so who Black took that moment
with media and advertising.

00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,920
So I loved it to as well, based upon
how it started.

00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,960
How's it going?

00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,240
Yeah, well, so we are two

00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,720
and a half years into it
as an organization, right now.

00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,920
So very much still growing,
very much still learning.

00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,280
But it's been going.
It's been going great.

00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,600
You know,
I think we have grown tremendously

00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,080
over the last couple of years.

00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,440
I will say, though, that, you know,
not everyone

00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,320
who made those promises
and commitments has have lived up.

00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,640
no, Never, never. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,120
So that never happens.

00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:48,760
Yeah, I want to be
I want to be clear on that.

00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:49,200
Right.

00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,200
I mean, that's
the reality of the situation.

00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,160
Some are doing better than others,
but at the same time,

00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,280
we as a company, we continue to grow.

00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:03,400
We continue to figure out

00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,680
what works best for

00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,800
us in terms of a product offering

00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,520
and how we execute on those products,
how we help our customers

00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,400
reach their goals
and how we live up to our mission

00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,400
and vision,
which is to dramatically transform

00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,960
the face of media ownership
and investment.

00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:28,280
Yeah, So okay, so like you,
I know, grew Black, came out with a report

00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,920
about black creators to really provide
objective measurables

00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,680
for things that you know
should be obvious, but it's not.

00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,280
And so to people,
I guess that the value that black creators

00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:45,160
are creating economically, but of course
not getting that same type of return.

00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,880
Can you talk more about that report
and what you hope

00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,480
happens as a result of that report?

00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,760
Yeah, sure.
So first of all, let me say this.

00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:58,560
I think as it relates to creators,
in many ways,

00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,480
creators are like a new version
of publishers these days.

00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,440
And and what I
and what I mean by that is you can go

00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,160
on various social platforms
that exist that are out there,

00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,640
and you can tune in and you can find out
what's going on in the world

00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,640
without even going to a traditional news
organization or news site.

00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:21,200
Right.

00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,800
You know, there are a number of creators
out there that I follow that cover

00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,160
news, sports, entertainment, history,
all types of subjects.

00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:30,760
Right.

00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,200
And they're doing it in a very,
very unique way for us.

00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,000
A group Black again,
is as one of our product offerings,

00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,480
is is you know we work with a network of
of of creators.

00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,640
And again, as we're talking

00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,640
to agencies and brands and understanding
what their goals and KPIs are,

00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,240
we have the ability to come up
with these bespoke programs

00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,680
and connect the creators with the brands
to to execute on that.

00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,840
And as we were getting into that business,

00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,880
one of the things that we immediately
realized and there are, you know,

00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,960
hundreds of articles out there about this
is that, you know, black creators,

00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,000
for whatever reason, don't have access

00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,760
to the same opportunities as non-black
creators.

00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,880
And, you know,
there is this and we thought about that

00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,720
and there's this sort of myth
that exists that maybe black creators

00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,080
don't drive the same value
as non-black creators.

00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,920
And so for us, it grew black again,
trying to keep true to our mission and

00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,880
vision of dramatically transforming the
face of media ownership and investment.

00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,680
It was important for us to set out
to disprove

00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,360
that myth, right, and to do it with data.

00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:43,760
Right?

00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,960
And so we entered into a partnership

00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,400
with Nielsen
where we essentially just ran a study

00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:57,400
and a research
with Nielsen, where we compared 300 black

00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,720
creators to 300 non-black creators

00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,120
and really looked at the media value
that they drive.

00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:11,080
And it's a combination of things
of looking at engagement

00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,560
increase in followers, right?

00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,480
Those those sorts of metrics.

00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,200
And when we dug into the data, right,
not really to our surprise,

00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,760
but we
we had now we had the data to back it up.

00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,520
Black creators are driving

00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,720
just as much, if not higher media value
in a number of different categories,

00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,440
like gaming and e-sports,
lifestyle, fashion, so on and so forth.

00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,120
Then non-black creators.

00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:44,560
And so for us it was important to put out
a very impactful report

00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,960
for marketers, for brands, for agencies
to show them

00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,760
that there's an opportunity here
that you are not taking advantage of.

00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,120
Right?

00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,200
And for any marketer and brand,

00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,760
they're always looking for, okay,
how do I grow my business?

00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,880
How do I reach my goals, Right?

00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,800
Where's the next opportunity?

00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,840
And for us, it was great
to really create this first of a kind

00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080
black creator report that showed in detail

00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,840
how black creators drive media value.

00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,960
What was success look like for group
Black?

00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,200
That's a great question.

00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,640
That that in many ways
that we don't exist in the future, right?

00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,440
In many ways that that last one answer
yeah yeah that

00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,440
that we create, you know

00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,880
a level playing field for media

00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,880
ownership and investment right?

00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,280
And that's,
that's what we're trying to do.

00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,440
So in many ways is for,
for, for us not to exist.

00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:49,600
that's great answer.

00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,800
So, okay,
I got a couple of rapid fire questions.

00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,440
Will I like to ask some folks on here?

00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,520
Let's see, what advice
would you give to your younger self?

00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,360
What would and what would you ignore?

00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:08,200
What advice
would you give to my younger self?

00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,800
Think before you speak.

00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,040
And and I give that advice to people that

00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,160
I mentor now
and I follow it myself even today.

00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,680
I mean, you can get into very heated
conversations, right?

00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,000
And if you respond emotionally,

00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,080
if you're respond in the heat
of the moment, you may ultimately

00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,920
say things that you regret
and you can't take back. Yep.

00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:38,320
And even even today,
I make sure I follow that when I'm having

00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,760
maybe a spirited debate with someone
or I need to write

00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,000
a very sort of direct
but productive email.

00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,960
I'll get up from my desk
and I will, you know, go take a walk

00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,200
or, you know, count to 20 or something
like that.

00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:54,400
Right.

00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,600
You never want to respond
when you're emotional.

00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,880
State is very high. Yep.

00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,640
An emotional response to a power situation
will decrease your opportunities

00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,880
and power exponentially, even though
you'll feel great in that singular moment.

00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,400
Like I got this out, that person knows
exactly how I feel and that's not.

00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,320
But your feelings aren't
even a real thing.

00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,720
They're just how you need to be able
to actually control them.

00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,280
That's something
I've had to appreciate more.

00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,240
I'm a very passionate person,
if you can't tell. Yeah, right. But.

00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,440
But I work towards like, okay, things have
to you have to really think things out

00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,160
because very rarely is it worth blowing up
a bridge.

00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,680
Very right is like right.

00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,600
You can literally be at war with somebody.

00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,560
Then you got to figure out how to work
with that person later

00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,920
and you just it's so, it's
so if you can preserve

00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,320
some status of the relationship,
you should always do it.

00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,680
I mean, that's absolutely. I agree. Okay.

00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,320
A theme for your life or let's
say a digital ad for Kerel Cooper's life.

00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,200
What would that be and why?

00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,080
Positive impact

00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,400
every situation that I'm in, every company
that I go to, every team

00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,520
that I try to build,
I try to leave it better

00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,960
than when I
when I found it or people that I mentor.

00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,960
I try to make sure they leave,

00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,440
you know, our mentorship with me,
providing something

00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,160
that has had a positive impact on them
and so,

00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,120
you know, at this point in my career,
anyone that I engage with,

00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,320
any company that I work with, that that's
what's the most important for me.

00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,800
How do I leave a positive impact?

00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,160
All right.

00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,240
You have a committee of three in business
or life poor, these three people advising

00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,040
you and why a committee of three?

00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200
That's that's a great.

00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,360
I'm going to go one.

00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,360
My dad. Okay. Advising me.

00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,160
He is is been obviously,
you know, in my life

00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,960
a key figure in making sure that

00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,240
I was successful.

00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,240
I stayed out of trouble.

00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,000
And he always gave me great advice.

00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,480
I'm going to go with the counselor

00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,800
who admitted me to Cain University.

00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,360
His name is Bruce MacIntyre.

00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,240
He was sort of a big brother to me
while I was on campus for four years.

00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,000
And those four years
really set the foundation for

00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,400
my professional career in many ways.

00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,600
So that's two.

00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,480
And then you want three, right?

00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,160
Yeah.

00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,960
Let's see.

00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,400
Third person.

00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:26,720
I'm trying.

00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,160
You know, you don't have to do three,
all right?

00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,800
We do not divorce it. It is not.

00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,960
Not There's not there. All right,

00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,960
What's an important truth you have that

00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,960
very few people agree with you on

00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,560
How politics

00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,160
So so and I'll explain to

00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,880
you guys later,
you know, especially in this day and age.

00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:52,200
Right.

00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,520
You know, this
I mean, it's either you are like

00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,520
it feels like you're either far
right or far left.

00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Right.

00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,760
So I don't consider myself

00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,920
a member of either of those parties right
when I when I vote.

00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,000
And by the way, I voted for Democrats

00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,160
before I voted for Republicans,
before I voted for independents,

00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,200
before, you know, whether that be
at the national, state or local level,

00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,560
For me, it is all about do I think

00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,840
that candidate

00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,840
is going to leave a positive impact,
Right.

00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,680
Period.

00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,600
And so in this day and age, you know this

00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,920
man, if you got
you got to be on one side or the other.

00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,040
I'm on neither side.

00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,320
And I will vote for any candidate
that I feel will leave a positive impact.

00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,000
Yeah, it's difficult, though. It's

00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,200
we're tribal beings as human beings.

00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,720
Right. And so,

00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,800
you know, you're in digital media,
so you can appreciate this.

00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,520
How the media works, how it's always work.

00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,000
But but but particularly
now we have now that we have social media,

00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,640
it can amplify some of the worst qualities
of human nature.

00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,720
And and the goal is,
of course, to keep you engaged.

00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,680
The challenge with that, though,
is that it's about keeping you engaged,

00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,960
not if it's truthful.

00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,400
Yeah, not if it's accurate,
not if it's good for you.

00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,640
And I do not have the answer,

00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:22,080
but I do believe fundamentally
there has to be something where we come

00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,920
to a reckoning about
how we interact with each other online,

00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,320
because it is literally,
I think, the biggest threat to us

00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,600
that's going to happen now
because this is war obviously happened.

00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600
But even as bad as we know,
there's some wars going on now

00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,440
relative to human history,
it's very low relative to human history.

00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,200
That doesn't mean
there's not horrible things going on.

00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,920
So, yeah, that's very, very clear.

00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,680
Yeah, I like put everything in perspective
if you know how many people died.

00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,240
Over 50 million people die in World
War Two, right.

00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,320
War was that that happened everywhere,
all across the world at any time.

00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,600
And then the other thing
that would kill us was, of course,

00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,840
you know, plagues and germs

00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:02,560
generally.

00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,600
Still, out of all the statistics,
more people die from sugar

00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,880
and suicide
than they do from soldiers collectively.

00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,400
So I believe our biggest challenge
going forward as a human race

00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,760
is going to be how we actually interact
with each other, with technology

00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,360
and artificial intelligence,
because those things are going to

00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,440
they already have

00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,760
and they're going to continue to amplify
how we how we connect with each other.

00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,440
And if there's no thought
to positive impact that you say,

00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,000
yeah, as into human emotion
and the calming tensions,

00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,120
then it's going to lead to more divisions
and actually could make us make it.

00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,560
Yeah. Or things like that.

00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,080
That is my biggest concern.

00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,280
And I'm a pro technologist.

00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,200
I'm also, though I believe in policy
that we need to do that

00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,240
can both promote innovation,
but then still sets transparency

00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:57,000
because I do think we're going
to need to reckon with this.

00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,600
But until that point, we as individual
humans have to talk to our kids

00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,520
and everybody else about how to decipher
what is happening in the world

00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,360
because this, you know, disinformation
and how the media is working

00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,600
is one of our biggest challenges.

00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:17,520
That's yeah, I listen,
I agree with you on the technology piece.

00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,760
And you know, as a as a parent of
of a teenage daughter right now,

00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,360
that that's one of my number one
concern to me.

00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,800
When you and I were in high school,
if we had to deal with a bully

00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,760
or someone that we didn't like. Right.

00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,960
We dealt with it for a few hours
and then we went home.

00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,600
Now it's 24 seven with the device
that's in everyone's hands.

00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,000
Right.

00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,800
And, you know, that's just one example
of many because one is another one.

00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:44,600
While we're on this point,

00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,600
the will conclude is that, you know,
I was talking to my friend.

00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,920
We were done with our kids, too.

00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,720
And that, you know, if you notice this,
because we grew up around the same age,

00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:56,200
like kids don't dance at all much anymore
in terms of groups and things like that.

00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,520
And you know why that is, I believe, is
because they're worried about social media

00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,760
like and when people get on there,
they're worried about

00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,400
people
are going to make fun of them forever.

00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,280
So, like,
they're they're actually losing out

00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,880
of the experience
of what it was like to feel the impact.

00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,280
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,280
Because there is it's always there.

00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,200
Always on there's always, you know,
there's always a phone or camera

00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,120
or something to that where, you know,
again, it's going back to that age.

00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,840
That was that was never
that was never the case.

00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,400
You don't have to worry about somebody
dunked on you or something like that.

00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,280
I play basketball right.
Like you don't have to.

00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,680
The thing wasn't highlighted
over and over again.

00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,600
I'm here to ask people to see now.

00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,000
Yeah,
do worry about more like scoring points.

00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,880
They say I don't want to be able
to suck it up because.

00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,640
Because back back
when we were younger. Yes.

00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,680
That that will live in your mind forever.

00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,680
Now it lives for everyone to see forever.

00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:48,680
So those are the challenges.

00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,240
Again, I don't have the answer,
but I do think we have to.

00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,400
I think we're just going to we're just now
starting to appreciate

00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,680
what that has done to the psychological
and the brains

00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,360
of of of kids, because we were at the time
where it affects us, too.

00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,360
But we've been without it.

00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,960
So we also know that world, too.

00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,240
And now we're at a world
where that's that's literally hardwired

00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:11,000
into who they are.

00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,720
And it's not like you can opt your kids
out of social media.

00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:15,120
They won't be able to do anything.

00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,160
So you have to we got to figure out
how we have that balance.

00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:19,280
We have to embrace it.

00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,360
But there has to be a balance, a balance,

00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,360
and it has to be in a series of other work
that group like is doing so important.

00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,880
It has to be

00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,720
a balance
in how we're telling the message,

00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:32,120
because then that can affect
how people view black and brown people,

00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,440
because there's not a thought about that
and the algorithms and everything else.

00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,360
So I actually think it's a higher call
than just

00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,040
when we talk about investment
and ownership.

00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,040
It's also what are we outputting there

00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,400
that is actually telling the full story
of the black and brown experience?

00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,560
Yeah, absolutely, Kerel.

00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,440
It's been a it's been a pleasure
having you on.

00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,880
Always good connecting with you.

00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,480
Great having you.
I appreciate your brother.

00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,880
All right.
Thanks, Rob. Appreciate it. Right