“The biggest concern with propaganda techniques is that you do create a multiverse, basically, where people are committed to a reality that may or may not be based on facts and that’s then continually reinforced.” -- James Keys

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ROB RICHARDSON
Welcome to Disruption Now. I’m your host and moderator, Rob Richardson.

JAMES KEYS
I’m James Keys.

TUNDE OGUNLANA
I’m Tunde Ogunlana.

ROB
It’s great to have the crew back. We're here sitting right after an election. We have a president-elect but some people don't believe it despite, actually, this president or president-elect, I should say, Joe Biden, and vice president-elect, Kamala Haris, receiving the second most votes in history. There are people that believe somehow it's not true; it's fraudulent.

But we know now, even the present occupant of the White House, who soon will not be in a few days in the White House, is now accepting… He seems to be seemingly accepting reality little by little. But the fact that we got here should tell you something. It should really worry you.

The fact is before we got here, we know what has been tried. We know that this president was firing the heads of security, was firing people in the military -- anybody that dare spoke the truth; anybody that would contravene anything that indicated the absolute truth -- that Joe Biden was the president-elect.

It’s not like this is a close election. It's not like this was an election where we had to really worry about things. Actually, the election wasn't even that close when they counted the numbers. He's going to go up in like seven or eight states. You could take away Georgia, he still would have won. You could take away Arizona, he still would have won. You take away Pennsylvania, he still would have won.

There was no scenario anywhere on this earth now. But here we have propaganda where we have multiple earths. -- By the way, side note, I’m a geek. I love multi-universes. I was in the spider universe where there are multiple Spiderman. All of that is cool.

Right now, we are on Planet Earth that we know of. We don't know about these alternative universes. But there are people that believe in an alternative universe where Trump actually won the election running away. People actually believe that. And it's because he has used and he's been very effective in using propaganda. And the right has used propaganda in a way that's effective. I’m not just talking about campaign strategy. No, no, no, no, no.

If you look at Russian propaganda, the Russians have been the best at it. They can convince people when they're taking over other countries, killing people, that this was something that people conceded to. Why -- because propaganda works. And for it to work, it has to be rapid, it has to be repetitive and it has to have no commitment -- zero commitment to consistency. Hmm, sounds a lot like Trump, doesn't it? Sounds a lot like the right. It's because it is.

James, Tunde, why should people care about propaganda? Some people are just going to say, “Look, this is just campaigning. This is all it is. People are just spending. People are just trying to win the argument. But it's not anything we should worry about. It's not anything that matters that much. It's just how campaigning goes.” What do you say to people when you hear that because I believe some people believe that.

JAMES
Well for me, I think that the biggest difference and the biggest concern with propaganda techniques is that you do create a multiverse, basically, where people are committed to a reality that may or may not be based on facts and that's then continually reinforced.

I’m an attorney so, obviously, I view things through a certain lens. A lot of things in court or in legal proceedings are based on evidence and substantiation of things that you say or positions that you take.

ROB
By the way, an important point very quickly while you're on that, which is why even though the Trump lawyers would say… even though people would go on TV and literally lie when they went to court, what happened? They didn't say that. They said, “Well no. We got no evidence of fraud.”

JAMES
Well yeah, they couldn't substantiate the wilder claims that we'd see in the media. If you don't have the evidence, if you don't have the proof, what we've seen throughout history… It's different in the modern era with social media and just the prevalence of all types of media all over the place. We don't just have three main networks or something like that.

ROB
Right.

JAMES
What we've seen is that even when you don't have facts on your side or evidence on your side, using propaganda techniques, using techniques that are very propaganda-like or you could just call “Propaganda,” you can create the illusion of evidence or truth or fact in people's minds -- people who are receptive to that message. And so as a result, there's a disconnect between what you can substantiate and what you can get people to believe.

And when you have that disconnect, basically, it's hard to have a national narrative based around truth, based around fact and based around evidence. It's just all about what people want to believe. -- I’m sure we'll get into later. -- That's actually subjected to market pressures now where people can shop around for whatever truth they want. Again, it's then hard to have a discussion based on truth, based on facts, based on evidence as far as what did happen and what needs to happen moving forward.

ROB
Tunde, what are your thoughts on the fact that people might view this as, “Oh well, this is nothing more than regular campaigning. We just shouldn't really worry about it. Maybe we're over-hyping this because we're crazy liberals,” which I don't know if any of us are crazy liberals.

JAMES
Tunde is center right.

ROB
Yeah, exactly.

JAMES
Now you got me confused as being a liberal.

TUNDE
Well I don't think you guys are crazy liberals either. I think we're just Americans that believe in the system and that we're not a monarchy. But before I go into my diatribe, I want to say I appreciate you guys bringing up the multiverse. I know it's unintentional but with my MIT shirt and my space background, I’m feeling pretty cool here.

ROB
Tunde, look, I’m pretty advanced in physics. I’m a nerd. I like this stuff of [inaudible - 06:14].

TUNDE
Me, too. That’s all what I’m saying. When you guys were talking, I was writing some notes because it got me thinking. And really, the thought that came to mind was the word “Accountability.” And your point is very well-taken, Rob, about what happened when they went into court because that's what happened is… That's the first place where someone’s held, at least the attorneys for the campaign, accountable in a way that was going to hurt them, right? I mean I think all human beings, we work on a carrot and a stick in some kind of way.
So the idea that I’m getting at is, from one of the transcripts I read, the judge basically threatened the attorney who was in front of him at that time, to basically reprimand him with the state bar association.

ROB
Right.

TUNDE
That’s when the attorney kind of capitulated and said, “I have no evidence of any of this.”

ROB
He got to hold himself like, “Wait. Wait a minute.”

TUNDE
Yeah. That's what I mean because the judge threatened, basically, the way the person puts food on their table, right? And that's what it got down to me where I wrote down here “Leadership matters” because I think… My disappointment as an American first and not a political party member -- because I’m actually a registered independent since my early 20s -- but as an American is the leadership of the Republican Party. That's my disappointment because they're the ones who are supposed to hold not only the president and other members of their party accountable but in a certain way, the public, in terms of at least accepting.

I think many of us have seen the footage of what happened in 2008 with John McCain when he had his concession speech. What happened was when he tried to get the crowd that was in front of him at that time to accept the fact that he was not going to be the next president, that his opponent would be, the crowd booed. And he kind of told them, “You guys calm down. This guy is an American… He'll be president. We got to unite.” Now, maybe the base of the Republican Party post 2008 didn't follow his lead but at least, the symbolic gesture of him being a leader was that.

And that got me thinking, too, that this moment may have been inevitable between the changing demographics, the mood of certain people in this country and then what you guys got to, with the propaganda. At the same time, the culmination of the internet infrastructure with social media, let's say 2006 through 2010, I think it was lightning speed and no one could see it coming in that way and the way that it will be manipulated and used on Americans.

I think now, we're post a decade, we have a chance to reflect. And you guys are right. This is a very interesting time. I think propaganda is something that's been with us forever in terms of human history…

ROB
It has.

TUNDE
...but it's just that, “What do we do now?” I think that's the question.

ROB
And I’ll just say this, to your point, about the republican leadership and what needed to happen. I think both republicans and democrats were guilty of this and I still think there is some guilt with this. They underestimate the power of propaganda. They overestimate the ability of people to be able to combat it. Republicans did and so did democrats.

I remember having conversations with democrats who told me there was no way possible Donald Trump could be elected and my thing is like, “I don't think it should happen but I think it is definitely a possibility and it's close to 50%.” I told people that during the first election. I said, “I think he's having actually a pretty effective message.” And people would really get upset with me, really get emotional. I’m talking about democrats.

Republicans, obviously, they were true believers. There were a lot of them. But then those in the establishment would just say, “Well he's probably not going to win so I’m just going to just duck and hide.” They assumed that he wasn't going to win.

So I think both parties were responsible for underestimating the threat, not only of Trump but of the propaganda and how effective that could be over years and how disenchanted people were. I think when we talk about propaganda, why it's different, people need to understand the real threat and how it's still there, too. -- James.

JAMES
Well yeah. I was going to say people underestimated the appeal -- appealing to less of a rational argument and more core emotion would have on Americans. And that's something republicans and democrats are oftentimes both guilty of, as just Americans are guilty of, is American exceptionalism. The whole thought goes back 80 years at this point. “It couldn't happen here.” And what we saw is we saw it happened here in terms of the demagoguery like, “All my opponents are evil.” You know, that stuff could really take root and flourish in a way that just grasps Americans.

Americans, on all sides of the aisle, have thought they just couldn't take hold here. We've looked at other countries. We looked down at other countries and said, “Oh the charismatic leader wouldn't be able to come here” with no substance, much of, literally, what they're talking about but just appealing on raw emotion and really cover much ground. The American exceptionalism argument was shown to be incorrect in that sense. We're still human beings.

So yeah, I think, ultimately, the question we have to get to at a certain point for all of us is… Propaganda has always been here but it's always been in different forms because propaganda depends on the nature of the media at that moment.

Propaganda techniques have now been clearly defined for how they operate in this type of media environment. And if you go back to the previous type of media environment, we consider propaganda to be state-run media, like one news channel owned by the state and they told you that was your only source of information.

ROB
Right. And the argument now is that we have all this information.

JAMES
That can’t work anymore.

ROB
Right. The false belief that people had, James, was that because there's more information, people would therefore be more informed.

JAMES
There was an assumption. You have this assumption going back to the Enlightenment period, that people would default to or automatically veer towards finding truth. So in what we’ve seen, no, they don't. They default. This is Tunde’s phrase or the way Tunde puts it, “They default to finding their truth “-- not necessarily objective truth but they try to find what really hits home for them.

ROB
That's brilliant.

TUNDE
That's a good point James because--

ROB
They default to their truth. You know, Tunde has [crosstalk] [inaudible - 13:02].

JAMES
That’s Tunde’s point. -- Go ahead.

ROB
You have a trademark attorney to my left here. We could copyright that. That’s a copyright, right? You need to copyright that.

TUNDE
I’ll let someone else steal it. [Laughter] But I was going to say, I think James’s point about the enlightenment going that far back is valid because I think… I’ll get more focused on than that and say that the idea was that, with enough information, people would lean towards reason and that you wouldn't have this type of mob mentalities and all that.

Again, those who kind of don't have the full understanding or they got confirmation bias that tells them it's a conspiracy, if you look at the back of the dollar bill, that word in Latin doesn't say “New World Order.” It actually means “a new secular order.” The idea was that this was going to be a land of reason; that wasn't a monarchy. That's why we have right in the First Amendment that the Congress shall not formalize any religion in this country. We have a very clear separation of church and state because at that time--

Remember, this is 1700s. You had a lot of religious refugees coming from Europe. Remember, the Catholic Church had a very long stronghold and you had a lot of Protestants coming out of England and you had a lot of Protestants, Lutherans coming out of Germany and all that.

So what happened was this was supposed to be an experiment where people from all different parts of the world… Well let's just say all different parts of Europe at that time and different thoughts and different backgrounds could come and share a land and a country in a cohesive way that wasn't going to be ruled by emotion or mob rule or to the purpose of this conversation, propaganda. So the idea was reason.

ROB
And then one person, one entity or a very controlled set of power would be able to take over.

TUNDE
Correct. But to speed it up, now fast forward to today… and I think this is something that I’ve said in the past year and you guys have heard me say it and it’s a bit of a humility play which is... I was naïve. I think part of this is… It’s like getting punched in the face. You kind of get punched in the face in a way through 2012-2015-2016, meaning, you got all this kind of propaganda, misinformation.

I think what happened is people like us were kind of trying to rationalize and reason out. “What do you mean the president’s not born in the United States? There's no evidence of this. Why would you think that? What do you mean that--“

JAMES
Tunde, let me just add real quick, why would you think that in the absence of any confirmed evidence? -- Go ahead.

TUNDE
What I’m saying is--

ROB
I can tell you -- because he believed in the goodness of people. He defaulted to the default that people are good.

TUNDE
But what I’m saying is…

JAMES
Rationality.

TUNDE
…I heard conspiracy--

ROB
And “rationality.” That’s the better way of saying it because “good” is too vague.

TUNDE
But this isn't the first time any of us have heard conspiracy theories. What I was telling James the other day on the phone like, “Think about the contrails and the planes,” that's a conspiracy theory. The difference is, to your point, Rob, from the beginning of the opening of the show, is it wasn't until kind of this last decade or so that you had the algorithms, the social media -- the ability for it to be constantly in someone's face.

So what happens is under a prior life that we all lived, prior to all this technology stuff and social media, you could kind of catch somebody who might be telling you, “Hey man, I heard that the president wasn't born here” and all that. You actually might be able to have a conversation. And if two or three people had that same conversation with that one person, that person might get off the ledge of it and not believe it as much. But what happens is the phone's right here, and no matter how much we try and come from the outside to talk to them, they got this thing telling them something [crosstalk] [inaudible - 16:46].

ROB
Yeah, they'll believe it. People believe it.

JAMES
Constant reinforcement, yeah.

TUNDE
Yeah.

ROB
Constant reinforcement. And it's people that were close to.

TUNDE
Just to finish and then I’ll shut up here--

ROB
Finish. Go ahead.

TUNDE
That’s why I’m not as doom and gloom as some are -- I’m not saying you guys -- because I feel like it… Mark Twain had this great line that, “A lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can put its shoes on,” and I think that's what's happened this last decade. Most of us are just getting our shoes on when a lot of this stuff already had been peddled out there.

Like you guys said, this is the new printing press. There'll be a way that the system gets around controlling this. Personally, I think it's dealing with big tech at some point but that's out of my control.

ROB
It’s not just big tech, right? Fox News, for example, has been in training for a long time even before social media took off to its height. As you stated earlier, it wasn't just--

You know, Fox News was literally created… Part of its genesis was actually after Nixon. They didn't want to have any other president get kicked out like this. They wanted to make sure that they could control the narrative. They are propaganda though they've had limits. I will give them this much credit. They had, at least, acknowledged…

TUNDE
They’ve shows us their limits.

ROB
…that we have a president-elect and it's Biden.

JAMES
Then they’re in a slippery slope, too, though…

ROB
Correct.

JAMES
…because [crosstalk] [indiscernible - 18:09] for more. And then they saw how much money--

This is something that you have to deal with as well. The market forces will often times want you to slip more and more and more towards the profit side.

ROB
We’re getting into that right now so let's go there.

JAMES
Well there was one other point I wanted to make with Tunde at this point.

ROB
Go ahead. Now I want to go to that point.

JAMES
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that’s a big part of it in terms of how to deal with it. And just with our country though, I think that we also have to acknowledge that the United States of America… You know, we've had kind of a conflict ongoing in America since the beginning as well and that a lot of that just comes to a head at various times. Right now, it's coming to a head again. The question is whether we're going to be a secular democracy or whether religion should dominate in our courts; in our laws. That battle has been fought over the senate control and then courts and so forth…

ROB
That's one battle. There's another.

JAMES
…versus the First Amendment, like when they thought they settled it. But the people who they thought they beat in that argument did not give up. And then you have whether we're going to be a multi-racial democracy…

ROB
Yeah, there is that. [Crosstalk] [I was going to say that - 19:16].

JAMES
…or a democracy where there's privilege at play. And there are privileged classes of people based on race and underprivileged classes based on race or status and so forth.

So both of those battles have been playing out and we're just seeing… The fight is just continuing on and the internet, social media, our media environment now brings it to a head… more in our face, I should say, all the time now…

ROB
I agree.

JAMES
…and allows people to become immersed in certain points of view which may or may not be based on fact because of the propaganda and because the market forces -- which I know you're about to get into -- oftentimes compel actors in the media space to tell people what they want to hear.

ROB
Well let's just talk about what to… Yeah, the market forces compel this. We know Fox News did this, I think, for political reasons but also purely economic reasons. There were people that wanted to have their views reinforced. And some in the conservative side believe that the media was out to get them if they said anything even if it was a fact. “Oh they're talking about climate change.” They're biased. “Oh they're talking about this racism.” They're biased. So they wanted someone that would frame things in a way that was receptive to them.

And they found out that you can essentially combine some elements of propaganda and entertainment and make a bunch of money and make it look like news. So people feel like they're getting news while getting entertained while reinforcing their own biases.

JAMES
But I think we should back up from that because I would say that the thought process on the surface that Fox gave, in terms of providing conservative framing, I think is legitimate. There are no liberal media companies because they're owned by major corporations. Major corporations aren't liberal.

People in media oftentimes tend to skew more… left view of things. They're more suspicious of central authority, for example. They're more, oftentimes, going to just be more receptive to outsiders. That’s just the type of people that get in the media a lot of times -- not all the time.

So you did see issues be framed in a way that I could see why somebody on the right would say… in the center right, I should say, will be like, “Wait. But the way you frame the issue, you always set us up to be the bad guy.” Now that may or may not have been really what was going on. But that was the stuff they were saying they were doing and maybe to some degree. Like when Wesley Clark was up there, there were people that were trying to do that. But as you're noting, once you started it, it became a slippery slope.

ROB
But I’ll say this, they definitely crept… They creep to a hole today where they would actually… I’ll give you one example out of many. When Trump started the whole Barack Obama, “Is he born in another nation” -- the whole birther thing -- at first, they totally shut it down but then see people were liking it and then they kind of played with it and entertained it with this view like, “Okay, we’re playing and entertaining our media likes but then we'll pull it back if we need to.”

But here's the question. Now you're seeing with Biden… Clearly, he's president-elect. And they have technology because there were limits that they haven't passed yet. But they've gone further than a lot of people thought they would. But they didn't want to go this far. And now people are upset with them. And now they're abandoning Fox News to go to whatever the… I think there's Owen. There’s other stuff that's willing to tell you even more of what you want to believe; that's willing to-

So now they've opened up this Pandora Box. The question is, “Where do we go from here?” Like, what can be done with the market forces driving people? What do we do and what can be done? What do you think happens next with the right wing?

JAMES
Tunde had an excellent point about the news desk versus the opinion desk also on Fox, like [enter - 22:48] Fox, “I’m not going to steal it.” It was a really good point as far as when he would watch that.

TUNDE
Yeah. Basically, if you watched Fox before, probably 7-8 o’clock at night, you’re getting actually really factual information. I think they did a great job in trying to thread the needle that they, like you guys said, created. I’m not naïve to that. I feel like they created this Frankenstein’s monster and they realized now it’s out of control and they’re trying to thread that needle of understanding their base. A lot a viewers had PTSD, literally, since November 4th.

So they’re trying to be appreciative of that but also trying to tell them what happened in a factual way and saying, “Look, this happened.” This isn’t, basically, running against the narrative that’s been coming out of the White House in terms of their own defense of the election.

Post 7-8 o’clock, when it’s the opinion time, then all bets are off and I got no idea what they’re going to say. But even we’ve seen in the last week, some of those guys have limits.

It’s interesting because going back to even the creation of the Frankenstein’s monster, I think that goes back to my thought of why leadership is important. Again, there’s a lot of fuzzing of the lines here. I’m not expecting a private corporation that’s publicly traded to be a leader of the United States. I understand Fox has its own interest of getting its own viewers, making revenue, paying shareholders and all that. I get it.

But to you guys’ point, you’re right. They were being cute with the birtherism. They wouldn’t say that it’s BS but they would… you know. They wouldn’t totally embrace it but they played that line where they knew that, “Okay, people that want to believe this, we’re going to give them a place to at least watch a show without getting pissed off.”

And that’s where I think where McCain kind of showed himself to be the last true stand-up guy in that party.

ROB
By the way, that’s also effective propaganda -- just tell a little bit of truth… some truth to allow [indiscernible - 24:44] actually do.

TUNDE
Correct. Goes back to what you say because then--

ROB
This is what propaganda is.

TUNDE
Yeah. No one knows what the real truth is. And they default to their truth which, for a lot of people, was that the former president wasn’t an American.

And I want to be very clear for whoever’s watching us now. I’m not saying this in defense of Barack Obama or because I’m in love with Barack Obama or anything to do with Obama being a great guy or they should leave him alone. Nothing. I don’t care about any of that. Politics is dirty. I get it.

My point is, is that, at some point, there needs… We’re all Americans. And the problem is, is that, by Fox and other legitimate sources including politicians, allowing stuff like that to happen just like now, post-election, when a lot of politicians know better. I’m not talking about the voters here. I get that they’ve been manipulated beyond control so I give them the benefit of the doubt that some of them just believe it, and that’s because their sources told them.

Again, we got the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, a guy named Lindsey Graham, he knows better. Guys like Ted Cruz [crosstalk] [inaudible - 25:49]--

ROB
By the way, who told people… Back up there for a minute. Lindsey Graham told the Georgia secretary of state to throw out votes.

TUNDE
I know.

ROB
Let me just say that out loud really quick. A senator in the United States who's the head of the judiciary committee told someone to throw out votes and then got upset… I think it's really important. And then a lot of people got upset with the secretary of state of Georgia and now they're upset with the governor of Georgia. These people are republican of republican of republican.

TUNDE
I know. Actually, they’re like the true conservatives out there, not these sycophant types. And that’s the funny thing -- it's just not [very sad - 26:25].

ROB
They’re pretty close to the sycophant types. [Laughter] [Indiscernible - 26:27]. These people--

TUNDE
No. What I’m saying is--

ROB
I’m just trying to say like--

TUNDE
I know. But what I’m saying is

JAMES
Brian Kemp was throwing out votes like crazy in 2018 when it was [crosstalk] [indiscernible - 26:35].

TUNDE
That’s a traditional republican throwing out the votes in 2018. What I’m saying is he's a party loyalist that's played the game and now he's not even pure enough. That's really the point I’m making.

JAMES
Yeah.

ROB
Yeah, exactly.

[CROSSTALKING – INDISCERNIBLE] [26:51]

TUNDE
To finish the point I was getting at, was that, to me, the leadership is important because… That's why I don't blame the voter as much because if you've got people that are like senators, right… There's only 100 senators in the United States. There are the 300 plus million people. We have always revered these type of positions as important people that we should respect. That’s where I feel like the interference is coming from.

And where I was getting at with the birtherism and all that and the cuteness of it is not… Again, not to defend Barack Obama. He's a politician. He can defend himself. What I was worried about is what's played out now. To me, it's a national security threat.

ROB
Well it is. Listen, he’s literally firing people that acknowledge reality.

TUNDE
What I’m saying is that the pump has been primed. This has started way before Trump. That's what I’m saying. People give Trump too much credit for this. What I’m saying is the fact that 47% of the republican voters that were polled during the Obama administration believed that their own president of their country was illegitimate is a national security threat because that allowed this to happen now. You see what I’m saying?

It allowed the Russians to come in in 16… and play this game. That’s what I’m saying, that I’m disappointed in the republican leadership post John McCain because we never saw anyone like that again except for Mitt Romney who I respect. And guys like Jeff Flake and Corker, too, are no longer there. I’m saying the guys that are still there now. We've never seen any of them come out really… And Chris Christie in his last few days. But again, he's not a sitting politician. Mitt Romney is the only current guy who's elected and in office that has stood up and said, “This is bullshit. This is not American and this is how we destroy ourselves.”

JAMES
Well there's more people now. He was just the first one. I think Lisa Murkowski in Alaska came out in the past day or so--

TUNDE
I’m in Florida, bro. I’m too far from Alaska to know [laughter] [inaudible - 28:52].

JAMES
Well wait, there's only 100 of them.

TUNDE
My satellite behind me to figure out what [crosstalk] [inaudible - 28:57].

JAMES
But you have to drill back on this point of the market incentive. If you're in the entertainment business, you have to make people feel a certain way so you keep their eyeballs; so they keep watching or keep listening. And if you're in the news business, you're supposed to provide people with truthful information.

Well what has happened though is that the entertainment business is more lucrative than the news business. So when you have news companies trying to respond to entertainment-type incentives, they want to give news that makes their audience feel a certain way, that makes them feel good or makes them feel correct. So that creates pressure for them to adjust what they tell them or to outright lie to them sometimes. So that's what you have.

That's what you have when Fox News calls Biden “President-elect” and their viewers revolt and start saying, “We're not going to watch you anymore.” And then Fox News is like, “Oh my gosh. What do you mean you're not going to watch us anymore? That's how we make money is people watching us.” And so as a result, they are beholden almost to their audience. If their audience is saying, “Hey, we don't want to hear that Trump lost the election” then that puts them in a very, very tough spot. I think the description of Frankenstein's monster is--

ROB
“Yeah, we want you to continue to lie to us to make us feel good because this is what you’ve done.”

JAMES
Just tell us what we want to hear. I think Frankenstein's monster is--

ROB
[Crosstalking] [Indiscernible - 30:24]--

JAMES
That was the point I was going to make.

ROB
Go ahead.

JAMES
I think the Frankenstein’s monster, to put that, is a very descriptive way and an apt way to describe this because Fox actually created that expectation and right-wing media, in general, created that expectation over the years with white lies and smaller things and smaller things. Trump didn't create this. Trump just understands its power and has the shamelessness to try to fully leverage the power to his own advantage.

ROB
And not only that, he has shamelessness… He does the exact stuff. He's repetitive and he lacks any commitment to any type of consistency. It’s not about truth -- that’s a really important point -- it’s lack of consistency.

JAMES
Well one consistency and that is it has to be in his favor. Like that's the thing--

ROB
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

JAMES
He’s test for--

ROB
Well he's consistent on that.

JAMES
Yeah. And that's the thing.

ROB
That’s it.

JAMES
He actually personalizes every issue to where you either agree with him or you are his enemy. And that's how you lose people at the Homeland Security -- you know, [inaudible - 31:26].

ROB
Yeah. And people believe it. Let me say this. This is an important point I want to have.
JAMES
Okay, go ahead.

ROB
People believe this, James. And I think proponents of the truth, democrats, independents, folks saw this person for who he was. And I saw an article that said… One of my progressive friends put it up. He said, “Good people don't support a bad person. False. Good people will support bad people all the time and they don't know.”

You look at what happened… and I know people hate this comparison. But Nazi Germany is a very good example of where we don't want to get to. And my point is that it didn't get there overnight. He started taking steps and steps and steps. And I don't think we're going to get there because our system is correcting.

But what people are allowing to happen… You know, like, “Oh no big deal. It's not going to happen here. It's not going to happen here.” The minute you think that you're not vulnerable or something, you are vulnerable to it. Anything can happen anywhere unless we remain vigilant which is why people need to understand what has happened here.

And I want to go to my question here. We know that Trump is highly effective in using propaganda and marketing but also he doesn't know how to bring it in and adjust. He's not Putin. He's also not Hitler. He doesn't know how to figure out how to be strategic.

People met Hitler and liked Hitler. People don't know this. A lot of people initially thought Hitler was going to be good including America -- lots of other people. He was very charming and he knew how to bring it in when he needed to. Trump does not. But what Trump has shown is that our system could be vulnerable to somebody that understands how to bring it in and how to be a little more self-aware to emotional intelligence to use propaganda when they need to and pull back. And perhaps, our system is vulnerable for breaking.

I want to know the thoughts on that. We know Trump. It looks like Trump is not going to stay there. I mean you can't guarantee anything but the tea leaves look like it's starting to come out, that he's not going to be able to stay. But can there be someone who uses the same playbook that is more effective or is this unique to Trump because he's just so shameless? What are you guys thoughts on that?

TUNDE
I’ll jump on this grenade here. I don't know. Who knows, right? We’ll see. I think that Trump is a very unique individual. I think that he has a combination of a lot of things that have allowed him to get this far, meaning… I think James just referenced the shamelessness.

A lot of people have a guard rail somewhere in their head where they won't say certain things, period, and he just doesn't seem to have that which also is what got him enamored to the base in 2015-2016 when he was campaigning because remember, he got balls, right. “Mexico is going to pay for that wall. Just ban Muslims.” He said things that a regular politician wouldn't say.

And I think a lot of things have happened. Donald Trump is a very unique individual in the American landscape for the last generation or two, right? I mean I remember watching Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous when I was a kid in the mid-late ‘80s and he was on there. Then he had the apprentice. It would take a lot for someone to repeat how he basically laid the groundwork for being part of the American culture prior to running.

He’s a unique individual for many reasons. But I do think… You're right. And that's one thing I wanted to point out in our discussion here which is… what he's pointed out actually… and I’ve said this to James in separate conversations. You know, I never really understood like the kind of libertarian thing about a limited government and all that stuff and kind of the Thomas Jefferson thing that we don't want tyranny.

It took Trump for me to really appreciate how the messiness and intricateness of our system is so protective of the overall system, right, like what we just talked about coming in -- the judges rejecting his attorney's stuff.

Like you guys said about… I read the details about what happened with Lindsey Graham and the secretary of state of Georgia. The secretary of state, he said when he was being interviewed, he goes, “One of the things I told Senator Graham was, “What you're asking me, even if I wanted to do it, I can’t because we have 200 counties in Georgia and each county has its own different system in the way they report it up to us.” I just thought, “Man, I’ve never been so kind of thankful and grateful for this system.”

ROB
Yeah, I thought about the same thing.

TUNDE
I never kind of understood like… Now I don't want like a traditional open democracy which is a 51% rule. I don't want all that stuff because I noticed, yeah, like you get the wrong person in there and they'll get that majority quickly. And maybe we should like that as sausage being made in its ugly [case - 36:21] like we just said at the beginning, that human beings don't want reason when you're talking about masses, probably me included if it was some issue that I really cared about. I wouldn't [crosstalk]--

[CROSSTALKING –INDISCERNIBLE] [36:21]

ROB
Yeah. I think… Wait, wait, wait. He was talking a lot of this. He said… yeah. [Laughter] Wait, wait, wait. Let me just say--

JAMES
[Inaudible - 36:39] Tunde would be like, “No.”

TUNDE
Yeah, man. Then I got to give up my green screen then I got problems. But just to finish my thought and then I’ll give up the floor is that… like we were alluding to earlier is that the messiness of the system and the whole… That's why I feel like it's such a… It makes me appreciate such a beautiful system the founders created which is… It's supposed to work against our reason… sorry, our emotion and forces that to have dialogue and debate to kind of get to the reason so that we can agree on something.

ROB
Right.

JAMES
[Crosstalk]--

TUNDE
It’s just fascinating.

JAMES
I was going to say like… I think I agree with that in the sense that the system actually held up pretty well.

TUNDE
Yeah.

JAMES
Now, obviously, someone more skilled may be able to do more damage. But they had its moments that--

ROB
It had its moments but it didn’t break.

JAMES
Well the reason for that isn't really the system. Any democratic system, you need large-scale buy-in. And I think what was revealed recently, what we've seen over the past, let's say, five to 10 years, is that there are a substantial number of Americans that are not really too enamored with democracy if they don't win. And so that being exposed, I think, is the thing that could subsequently be weaponized by someone who may be more skillful at being able to play the game because… If I don't win the election then the election wasn't legit.

ROB
It wasn’t legit.

JAMES
And a lot of people will get on board with that sentiment.

ROB
That's exactly what's been going on for three weeks. People say, “Well we need to get rid of illegal…” “How are they illegal” “They're just not legal.” “Why are they not legal?” “Because they didn’t vote for me.”

JAMES
“Because I didn’t win.” [Laughter]

TUNDE
But you know what? Part of it and… But James--

ROB
The question is, “Did they believe it or they just want to believe it because they didn't win?”

TUNDE
But that’s it. James--

JAMES
They’re willing to believe it without… Because again, all of this stuff… It's not just about what you will believe. I’m willing to believe a lot of things if you substantiate it. The issue is not what people are willing to believe, it's what they're willing to believe without any evidence or without any substantiation.

ROB
And not only that, with clear facts over and over and over again, even from people within their own organizations, that’s not true.

JAMES
Well evidence on the other side.

TUNDE
Rob, Simon Sinek had that great book. “Why Facts Don’t Matter.” I remember that. Remember he said, “Politicians with a 12-point plan don't win.”

But James, I want to allude to something you've mentioned in the past which helps explain it I think which is... I look at it as… if I had a big pot of stew here and we had a bunch of ingredients and then I got to mix it up. That's how you [crosstalk] [inaudible - 39:17]--

JAMES
Hey man, you're making me hungry over here, man.

ROB
I know. I haven't eaten, man. So yeah… Go ahead.

TUNDE
I got some Ferrero Rochers if you want. I’ll throw them at you.

I feel like there's several ingredients that got us here and one of them was, going back to the original comments, Rob, about the propaganda… because James, you've alluded to this, which is if the opponent is so bad then what happens is it gets people to a place where they'll put up with anything because the ends justify the means. And so the propaganda, right--

ROB
The propaganda says that anybody that voted against this person--

TUNDE
No, no, no. Rob, it's deeper than that…

ROB
Okay.

TUNDE
…because I’ve been down this rabbit hole. What I’m saying is… I told James this in the summer. I was out at the sandbar… having another family with a big Trump flag on their boat. It's all good. We're having beers together. I’m having a good time with them. And somehow the lady brings up the election. It's okay. I’m like, “Whatever,” you know. She said, “Oh man, all the politicians are full of shit. Blah-blah-blah. I’m going to vote for Trump.” And I said, “Well I think everyone is full of shit.” That kind of was my olive branch.

And then she goes right into the whole thing about democrats being pedophiles. “I can't f**king vote for Biden and them pedophiles.” Rob, I’m telling you man, that shit is out there and people believe it. And the thing is, is that… This is where I think democrats and just… Not even the left because, again, I consider myself kind of an independent--

ROB
Anybody that believes in the truth of America.

TUNDE
Believes in reason. And actually, like James said, I just need evidence before I call someone a pedophile.

ROB
I mean, something.

TUNDE
Well Dennis Hastert, from your state, was a pedophile because the guy ratted on him and then they found $3 million in bank payments to the guy. And then when they asked him, “Why the f*** you paid this guy $3 million over the past 20 years” then he admitted, “Because I raped a guy when he was in high school.”

ROB
Wait. I think that was Illinois. But go ahead.

TUNDE
Illinois -- I’m sorry.

ROB
[Crosstalk] [Indiscernible - 41:20].

TUNDE
Sorry. Hold on. Let me call out your state. You got Jim Jordan. The evidence isn't there yet but he’s--

JAMES
Yeah. Jim Jordan, yeah.

TUNDE
But my point is that--

ROB
That’s true.

JAMES
The wrestler.

TUNDE
That’s why I think--

ROB
I don't blame him either though. -- Go ahead.

TUNDE
Rob, that's where I think a lot of people that want to see this go away are missing that part of it. That’s why I said, it's been 10 to 12 years of ineffective ecosystem led by the algorithms and all that. That's what my issue is with big tech like Facebook. They've been allowing this on their platforms and they know it.

JAMES
The market incentives.

TUNDE
And I hate to use the “R” word but I think this is where regulation is definitely needed. I mean the government needs to say, “You are basically committing treason at this point if we don't regulate you because you're destroying--“

ROB
Good luck. So here's the thing. People are moving… Here's the hard part of that… And I’m not against regulation either but I also know that people are moving off Facebook right now because they think… Even though Facebook's is not really regulating things, they think… because they tell them this might be false.

TUNDE
I know.

ROB
I mean so like people--

TUNDE
So like what's happening with Newsmax and Fox now. They’re moving from Fox.

JAMES
You're not going to eliminate it all though. The issue is that you want to return it to the fringe.

ROB
Exactly.

JAMES
So this John Birch existed… This isn’t the first time we have conspiracy theories. The problem is the mainline.

ROB
So let me get to that because that’s my next… Go ahead.

JAMES
No, I was saying the problem is the mainline.

ROB
That’s my next question really… yeah. They’ve been mainline. Not only they’ve been mainline, the president of the United States right now is the leader in conspiracy and propaganda theories. And then Trump had to go along with them. And then you either had -- what James had said -- you had cowards or traitors on the republican side. People just wouldn't say anything and they would come high like… I know some republican senators. I would ask them, “How are things in Washington,” they’ll say, “They're crazy, Rob. Crazy, Rob.” would say, “Well speak up.” [Laughter]

And then you got people that would just go along with it. They'd just be traitors, right -- people that would say, “Oh yeah, there was a bunch of fraud. Biden's not president-elect.” That's our current example. But it's not surprising people believe it.

This is where we need to go though. We know propaganda's been used. We know it's been very effective. I think it's been more than 10 years. It's really been 20 or 30 years of systematic thought. It’s been weaponized with social media. Social media has made it more effective but it's been in place for a long time. So this brings up to where we are right now.

JAMES
You can chart it actually from the Fairness Doctrine in terms of when the Shackles came off the media and what they could say to you--

ROB
What is a “Fairness doctrine”? People might not know. Why don't you tell them what it is just [crosstalk] [inaudible - 43:52].

JAMES
The fairness doctrine was regulation that was put in place back in the ‘40s once you first started having broadcast media which regulated the way the issues were presented --issues of public importance. It regulated the way that they were presented. That's why when Reagan gets rid of the fairness doctrine… that's why you have right-wing talk radio pop-up right after that because they no longer were constrained in terms of how they presented issues. They were allowed to present issues--

ROB
Because they used to have to show both sides when you talk about an issue. You'd have somebody up there to counter balance to make sure you’re dealing with issues.

JAMES
It’s a little more complex than that. I wasn't specific but it was regulated in terms of how it was presented.

ROB
Generally, it was regulated. You couldn't call yourself “News” and come out and not have a real balanced approach to your news.

JAMES
Correct.

ROB
Essentially, that's what it… before that. That's the easiest way of describing it.

JAMES
Yeah. I guess the best way to say it is… That's not a complete way to describe it but that's kind of the gist of it, is that you had to present things with both sides type of thing. That's kind of the gist of it. -- Go ahead.

ROB
Yeah. And now you can have entertainment and say it's news. You couldn't do that before. So that's basically what's going on. And people believe or their minds allow them to believe they're watching news when you're watching an entertainer. You're watching a provocateur. You're watching somebody that is trying to get you entertained and keep you entertained. They're not trying to inform you. They're not trying to tell the truth. Their goal is to entertain you and make you feel good.

JAMES
So you'll come back.

ROB
Which is why you go to Hollywood. But it's not why you should be watching the news. I would get if you… I get not watching that. You want to feel good? Go watch a Disney movie. If you want the truth, we should have real journalism.

JAMES
And that's why you also see the way this stuff is presented with character development and story arcs where you have a villain, like a villain that's pure evil. Like Tunde was talking about, you have these pedophiles that need to be stopped.

I was telling Tunde the other day, like there's more nuance in the Avengers Endgame than a lot of these media companies. There's nuance in terms of the bad guys and the good guys and what the motivations are.

A lot of this stuff, with the media now -- with “news media” -- the way they present things, there's this bad… Like it's the devil and then it's the good guys and that's it. Everything is framed in that way.

ROB
[Laughter]

JAMES
But the reason it's presented that way is to give you a story arc where there's the bad guys. And they're just bad. There's no explanation for why they're bad. They're just bad and they just do bad things. And then there's the good guys and they're fighting for you all the time. There's no reason they're good. They're just good.

That’s how news is presented to people now, in that framework, because that will keep your attention. As I said, in the market, incentive is there to present this stuff as entertainment to keep eyeballs or to keep ears, to keep attention. And as a result, you have all this stuff being presented to people like it's a movie; like it's a story arc.

ROB
Oh man, I think you hit it. You hit it on that, man.

TUNDE
Sorry to… Hold on.

ROB
Listen, if we had a mic, we need to drop it right now. James just had the “drop the mic” moment -- just dropped.

TUNDE
Let me do this, Rob. Let me mess up the show. Let me share the screen real quick. I got something to piggyback on James’s comment. I want to put up here for the audience.

All right, so I wanted to share and piggyback off James’s comments about heroes and villains because… You know, I’ve donated money to everybody and so I get emails from the Trump campaign. And just reading this… If you're seeing this for the first time watching this--

ROB
We should read this out loud.

TUNDE
I get five of them a day--

ROB
Wait. I want to read this because people listen to this podcast.

TUNDE
Go ahead.

ROB
This is an email… yeah. I want people to understand this is an email that the Trump campaign sends to supporters. It starts like this:

“The left hates you. -- They hate you, Tunde. -- That’s what the liberal elites think of you. They hate everything you stand for. And now they're trying to take away the election. We can't let them get away with this. President Trump is calling on his strongest defenders like you to step up and fight back against the radical left and their attempts to undermine this election.” -- Tunde, when did this message come to you?

TUNDE
This one particularly… Give me one second. I guess it's on the email here. I can't see. It came this Friday -- three days ago at 10:37 p.m. But I’ve gotten probably another 10 since then, as recently as just a few hours ago.
ROB
All right. I’m going to take that off the screen now.

JAMES
Actually, don't miss the part in red that's right after “The left hates you,” Tunde, where it says, Representative Omar called Trump events “Clan rallies.” I guess to quote, “Squad member, Ilhan Omar--“

TUNDE
Sorry. Go ahead. I was going down. There's a bit more.

ROB
It was. Go ahead.

JAMES
“Squad member, Ilhan Omar, said Trump events are clan rallies.” So in that sentence, you have a villain and then you have the villain attacking for no reason. Like there’s no reason. Just evil attacking. That is Megatron.

[CROSSTALKING – INDISCERNIBLE] [48:54]

JAMES
In this email, Ilhan Omar is Megatron -- just shows up just attacking.

TUNDE
But think about also the skillful nature of this publication. That's why I’m saying, Rob, I don't… I started laughing at first but then when it kept being repetitive, I realized there's a lot of thought into whoever wrote this.

ROB
There's no question.

TUNDE
And it’s very psychological because think about it, what's one thing that a lot of Trump supporters really gets them irritated? It’s being called “Racist.”

ROB
They hate being called “Racist.” They don't mind--

TUNDE
So the fact that they put in here that she's calling Trump rallies “clan rallies,” that's also going to get someone's ire. It's going to trigger them to respond. Then look at where the capitals are. “It's about you.” It's making it personal. And then down here is where I was going to… Again, capital “Unhinged.”

ROB
They said they physically assault Trump supporters. So it’s setting them up like, “These people are trying to commit violence. They are trying to hurt you. These are the people that are on the other side.”

TUNDE
But you see what I’m saying, too? And James--

ROB
“And they claim that we're just dividing the nation. It's despicable.”

TUNDE
But James and I have talked about this because it's an ecosystem. Think about it: They physically attacked Trump supporters and then… It's funny. I got a meme from my buddy who's a big MAGA guy after… When was it? Last weekend or the weekend before -- the MAGA march in DC?

ROB
Oh yes.

TUNDE
And the meme was an older Trump supporter. He had the Trump shirt. The older gentleman looked like he's maybe in his 60s and I guess he got his ass kicked by some of the anti-Trump people -- you know, typical skirmish bullshit, right?

ROB
Yeah. But they were fighting--

TUNDE
But that was taken and circulated in that ecosystem about…

ROB
Of course.

TUNDE
“See how they're attacking us.”

ROB
Yes.

TUNDE
So that's what I mean is they're very… And that's why I’m saying, democrats--

ROB
The propaganda is that anybody that votes against Trump or is not republican is the enemy combatant and trying to destroy the nation.
TUNDE
Correct. And you got to assume that out of the 70 million people that voted for Trump, the 70% that feel that the election was stolen, are the people that buy into this. That means that at least 50 million of our fellow Americans will believe this. And it's probably a bigger number because there's a lot of people, I’m sure, that didn't vote. That’s what I’m saying.

On a serious note, if I can say anything on this show tonight is people, whether they're democrats, moderates, republican, Lincoln Project people, people that don't believe that that stuff is effective, that I just put on the screen, need to take that very seriously. I’m getting bombarded by it.

ROB
It's very effective. The man has raised lots of money. Look, Biden got more votes than anybody in history. Guess who got the second votes than anybody in history?

TUNDE
Yeah, Donald Trump.

ROB
Donald Trump. So this is not to be underestimated.

TUNDE
Yeah. This is serious.

ROB
This is not to be trivialized. So I want to say, “What can people who are seeking truth…” This is my recommendation as I said it but I need to say it again because it's very important. You cannot underestimate this. You should not trivialize this. This is serious. It is a threat to our democracy. It's a threat to our freedom. It's a threat to your prosperity. If we are divided amongst each other and we can't govern, we cease to exist as a nation and we can't do anything effectively.

No matter what, you think you need a functioning government. If you don't have a functioning government, you will not succeed as an institution. Our government must function.

And Russia's job, and why they're so effective at propaganda, is that they want to make sure their… Their government functions in a way where right now Putin can rule and take over. And he'd rather have America weak. And right now, we're kind of complying.

So I think that's why people really need to understand and understand that this is a serious, serious, serious threat. I think the biggest thing you can do is to first understand the seriousness of the problem before you can address it. That's number one. A lot of things I think we can do but I want to start there.

And then I want to get ready to conclude with you guys and I might have some few wrapping up points. James, what do you think we need to do as proponents of truth, as believers in the American system? As flawed as it is, we still want to make sure it's preserved so we can continue to improve it.

JAMES
The system is not going to be perfect. Human beings are flawed and the system does try to account for that which is good.

And you're correct in the sense that any government that's of the people, by the people and for the people will fail if the people hate each other. So there needs to be some way that we can provide for the ability to get information that isn't about hustling us all the time; that isn't about just looking at us as profit centers that need to be given certain things so that they stay around -- any of us.

One set of media that's looking to target some people and another set of media that's looking to target another set of people and then you have some media that's trying to play it straight and oftentimes, they're the ones that make the least amount of money. Playing it straight is… This is not new. Playing it straight, just giving news, makes the least amount of money.

And it used to be, to have a broadcast license, you had to have a news bureau when the government actually was in the business of giving people broadcast licenses because there was limited spectrum. Now anybody can broadcast anything at any time. That's not really doable anymore. What needs to happen is that you need to find a way to separate entertainment from news from the market signal standpoint. What we're seeing is a natural evolution of the fight for eyeballs.

The reason why Facebook is a cesspool with conspiracy theory and all these groups that get together and plot terrible things about people is because that engages people. That makes people stay on the platform. So Facebook, they get more money the longer you stay on the platform. So the things that people get into and want to keep coming back to and stay on for, the market forces tell Facebook that they need all that conspiracy theory stuff.

Ultimately, as long as the market forces alone dictate how we get our information, how we get our entertainment, whatever, but how we get our information as long as market forces are dictating that then giving news will not happen.

Right now, news media organizations are forced to choose between making money and delivering truthful information. So as long as that… is the market set up then we're going to take [Ls - 55:20] as far as our society being able to recognize important issues and deal with important issues.

And you know what? It's kind of important for societies to be able to recognize important issues and deal with important issues if they want to sustain themselves.
ROB
Agree. -- Tunde.

TUNDE
I think we've got a long road ahead. I think that, and I’ve said this before, that Donald Trump probably gets too much credit and too much blame for a lot of things because he's not the one that started this and it's not going to end when he's out. And so I think that people need to stop looking at him and start looking past him and how we're going to deal with this when he's out. And I think James has a great point--

JAMES
Now Tunde--

TUNDE
Yeah?

JAMES
Now Tunde, you know Donald Trump would never allow us to do that.

TUNDE
Listen, I’m not getting into that. But obviously, he's not going to be president in a month or two once… whatever time frame it is. Remember, he's 75 so he'll be dead at some point in the next 20 years, right? But this isn't going away.

ROB
He’s Superman to some people. I don't know. We'll see.

JAMES
Yeah. [Laughter]

TUNDE
To James’s point, this is the evolution of our ecosystem with media. Like I said, society will figure out how to deal with this probably over the next decade or two but it'll be painful until we get there.

ROB
Yeah, a lot of faith in society. But I think people have--

JAMES
Or it will deal with us.

[CROSSTALK -- INDISCERNIBLE] [56:45]

TUNDE
Or we’ll collapse -- one or the other.

ROB
Yes. Or it will deal with us. That’s very well stated.

TUNDE
It will either fix it or collapse -- one or the other.

ROB
Yeah. Look, I believe as we wrap up, I agree in the long term -- a lot of things that James said -- we have to look at… and you said as well. We might have to look at regulation and how we do this. We'll have to look at perhaps how our news media is driven. It shouldn't be a pure market force-driven particularly with news and how we get information, entertainment, whatever, have at it. That's what entertainment is for. It's for fantasy. But how we actually get information about the government and things like that should be based on some facts, rooted in facts, not just entertainment and how we want to feel. Those are long-term things.

And the short term, democrats, independent-minded, conservatives, libertarians, people that are interested in the truth need to understand what we're up against; understand that propaganda is being used.

Propaganda is very profitable. It's very effective for power so there needs to be a whole anti-propaganda machine. And it's not just us responding to propaganda with the truth. That does not work. If a lie is told a thousand times, the truth has to be told ten thousand times. It has to be reinforced over and over and over again.

People need to understand what's being presented in front of them is propaganda. And not point-by-point because often, the trick is people try to respond to the truth at every single moment. When the lie comes at you, the truth comes at you, lies come at you -- that doesn't work. You have to overall help people see the narrative as it comes along and then have other people that can relate to the people that are being disenfranchised say the message, too.

And there has to be a strategy. And most importantly, people have to understand, it's necessary to invest resources and time in doing this in the short term as well as look to long-term solutions because if we don't, I’m afraid we could end up collapsing ourselves. And it could be something where we have to deal with it because it destroys our government at least four times.

I don't want to see that happen. We can't let the right propaganda… What I mean by that is the right using the propaganda or propaganda being used in the right way which will always undermine us. Whether it's left or right, it doesn't matter.

Propaganda, if we don't get ahold of it… But maybe the left starts using it and then we just all live in our own false realities, then we all just tear each other apart and believe that everybody on the other side is a horrible person. We cannot survive doing that.

But we still have to understand this is not a Pollyannaish way. I think there are some in the new administration that believe that if we just say the truth and we are nice that that's going to solve the problem. It will not solve the problem. We have to have a--

JAMES
You shouldn't throw that sentiment away because I think with propaganda and with the efforts that are being made, you have to look at what they're trying to do in terms of trying to address them. And what they're trying to do is divide people, to make people not see their own commonality, not see each other's humanity.

So part of the efforts to counteract it, as you point out, you can't just try to put out all these fires that are putting it out. What you have to do is try to make it so that you fireproof the system. You focus on trying to make people and show people their commonality and interest; show people that their problems are tied together. And then you try to inoculate them, basically, against the propaganda. That's going to keep… The propaganda is going to keep coming.

ROB
Propaganda is going to keep coming.

JAMES
Yeah, yeah. So you got to make it so that people understand that we are all in this together.

ROB
And it's going to evolve, too. We didn't even get into the deep fakes and the fact that people can now make something look like… They can make Rob Richardson say something Rob Richardson will never say.

JAMES
They can create substantiations.

ROB
They can create substantiations.

JAMES
They can create evidence, yeah.

ROB
They can create evidence and people will believe that and then you have to be ready for that. I agree with you, James. We definitely have to operate in a level that tries to bring people together. But then we have to realize who and what we're going against and have a direct response to it because that's the only way we're going to bring people together. We have to make sure that we win the war in terms of information, otherwise, we lose.

TUNDE
One of the things I want to add on a serious note… because I’ve got several close people in my life that do kind of drink this Kool-Aid. For anyone listening or watching that deals with people like this… I mean it's very important. Like you said, Rob, you don't try and combat them with… I’ve already raised two kids in their 20s so I’ve been a parent of teenagers. It’s like when our daughter, you know, her first boyfriend, we weren't a huge fan of them. But my wife was the one telling me… and she was right. “Listen, if we act like we don't like him, she's just going to move out with him.”

ROB
Right.

TUNDE
So you just got to stay calm because they're going to rebel. And I think that if we're serious about all of this… you know, not wanting to see this permeate our democracy, I think those of us that are on the side of the argument that we’re on in tonight's discussion, need to also have some emotional discipline and not look at them… people that believe that they're stupid, not call them “stupid” because that's just going to drive them further into this rabbit hole.

ROB
I agree.

TUNDE
We need to embrace them and remind them. Most of the people I know weren’t always like this. 10-15 years ago, they were more rational and moderate, politically. They just got kind of ginned up and went down this rabbit hole and… Just like the cults, you know, you somehow got to pull them back out. But it takes time, too. So just be patient with these folks.

ROB
It takes time and it takes the same amount of consistency because people are still going to keep trying to put them in the propaganda because it works so effectively. Why would people stop?

TUNDE
That’s my point. We're part of the solution in that way, too. We're all part of the ecosystem together, I guess is my point. If we're going to point fingers and say, “They need to look and be open to a democracy that involves people that think other than they do and legitimize when their opponent wins,” we need to take some emotional discipline and not just belittle them.

ROB
I agree.

TUNDE
At least calm down and say, “Guys--“

ROB
I agree. And it's very hard to do.

TUNDE
I know. That’s what I’m saying.

ROB
But it is necessary because we have to for America. -- We want to get ready to conclude. Until next time, I’m Rob Richardson.

JAMES
I’m James Keys.

TUNDE
And I’m Tunde.

ROB
And we'll see you next time.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]